Massive res failures on some characters. It is boring.

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Sarell
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Massive res failures on some characters. It is boring.

Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:02 am

Oghma responds to your petition with 'There is no bug associated with Resurrection.'

I have a shaman, Amak, who fails most resses. I have to spend like 10 hours in DS if I do a zone. It's stupid and boring and makes even the most hardened mudders not want to play. A good solution would be to actually get exp from zones but that isn't going to happen. So in the meantime, can we remove exp los on death instead? I see no point at all to this massively boring facet of the game.
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Postby Yarash » Sat Mar 04, 2006 9:45 am

This happened to me. I got so tired of it, I rerolled and levelled up, just to have 100 natural con. It was such a bad experience, every char I make must have perfect con now.

There needs to be some sort of penalty for dying though.

Where I played before here, you would lose a reasonable amount of exp, have no level loss, and would lose 1-3 constitution points (out of 18) which could be bought back for maybe the toril equivalent of 1kp each. At 3 con you died permanently.

On a certain graphical mud, when you die you lose 2-5 rl days worth of exp, skills go down, and each item has a 10% chance of being left in the corpse, where it is 90% of the time plooted by other players. Your bag is always left in corpse.

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Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:16 am

"There needs to be some sort of penalty for dying though. "

I agree, it should be slowing you in zone or making your character worse off. Not making you sit doing practically nothing for a RL day! When it is at the stage, you get to do a zone, which is fun, and then sit pressing 'assist x' for 10 hours the boring far outweighs the fun.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Mar 04, 2006 7:28 pm

failing res as my chanter is a full literal day of xp'g. It's stupid. Nobody seems to notice I quit playing him for the most part. I agree that there should be a penalty for dying, which imho, already exists. You sit on your ass and mem, then there's the 10+ minutes resfx, and in zones like CP, you just lost the loot more than likely. I got so mad from failing res the last time it's just a miracle I didn't delete. Would have been 29 people on rather than 30 *shrug*...

I don't see why it's so rigid that you need to lose a full quarter of a level when you die. Other games (let's hear "Then go play that game then") don't do that crap. Speaking of PC games, etc, mostly. It's just not fun. XP'g sure the hell isn't fun. Zoning is fun - for me. I know others don't like it but oh well.
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Postby Imis9 » Sat Mar 04, 2006 11:19 pm

I admit it, I'm confused. Doesn't the losing of XP make use have to create xp groups and go out and actually xp to keep our levels? Don't those xp groups then serve to provide new players folks to group with to learn and get their own xp? I don't know if folks notice, but just finding xp groups has become somewhat difficult. If anything, we need more xp loss so folks have to start xp'ing more.

Imis
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Postby Gormal » Sun Mar 05, 2006 1:42 am

Sarell is more concerned about the fact that we get more exp in ds and doing repetetive crap than zoning. ALL zone exp should get setbit to more than it is to but it in line with izans/musp invasion etc. I should learn way more from zoning than "doing exp". This problem however makes ress failure a Huge timesink unless you are a ranger/rogue.
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Postby Yarash » Sun Mar 05, 2006 2:03 am

Gormal wrote:Sarell is more concerned about the fact that we get more exp in ds and doing repetetive crap than zoning.

Maybe he should clarify, but the way I read the post's title and content, it sounds like he is concerned that resses fail too much.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Mar 05, 2006 4:23 am

Res fails too much for an environment where exp is mindless and boring. If exp involved more than me spending an entire day on the pressing F9 it might be different.

I grouped with a new player the other day in CM. We killed the same duergar scout about 300 times, he figured this game was boring as hell and left.
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Postby Minofagal » Sun Mar 05, 2006 5:44 pm

Sarell wrote:I grouped with a new player the other day in CM. We killed the same duergar scout about 300 times, he figured this game was boring as hell and left.


how about making midlevel "zones" with a min/max level restriction hard coded in like the cemetery south of wd.. but make it like a real 15 man for mid levels that you actually get xp youd get in the same time as ds/pship/cm.. that would definetly make things a little more interesting..
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Postby Yarash » Mon Mar 06, 2006 1:16 am

Minofagal wrote:how about making midlevel "zones" with a min/max level restriction hard coded in like the cemetery south of wd.. but make it like a real 15 man for mid levels that you actually get xp youd get in the same time as ds/pship/cm.. that would definetly make things a little more interesting..

We do not have the pbase to support 15 man groups of levels less than 40-50.

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Postby Sarell » Mon Mar 06, 2006 2:25 am

I'm not really concerned with mid level exp at all, it doesn't take very long and there are a few places you can get it at a reasonable rate with a group, not the best rate, but reasonable. When we decided to change exp tables from level 1-46 to be easier and 46-50 to be harder, with the same total exp for 50, I argued strongly that it would make the task of keeping level 50 arduous. We are now seeing this to a very high degree, particularly due to the small playerbase where the few consistant players we have, hold multiple characters to ensure zone groups can be formed.

I have several characters with over 100 or over 50 pdays. They have individually lead hundreds, and thousands of high end zones. Sarell, the druid, in particular is still required, to be most effecient, to sit killing the druids in the druid sanctuary to keep above 50 (the new duergars arn't bad either). Keeping Amak at 50 is a completely absurd practice I have given up on with res fails being over 75% on this character. ? I could do it yes, but sitting smiting the same mob for my whole weekend to justify taking the character to one zone simply isn't fun.

Why should we come out of a high end zone with less experience than we went in?
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Postby Dalar » Mon Mar 06, 2006 6:50 pm

Looks like complaining about this over the years has gotten 0 response. Keep on trucking~
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Drache » Tue Mar 07, 2006 12:37 am

Grinding one's nuts in a blender is as to fun as: {A,B,C,D} is to 'just shoot me!
A) Exp'g after a failed res
B) Exp'g in general
C) Finding a group to xp
D) Finding a group that will let you in, especially since you need to xp seeing as you failed a res.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:01 pm

Perhaps this can be added to the list right after removing ress effect.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Mar 07, 2006 10:43 pm

Oh boy, here comes Llaaldara to yell at us all and tell us we need to suck it up and that's how the mud should be, blah blah blah right? No, so just read on.

Long time ago vokers used to get a lot of exp, then they downgraded how much exp we get from our nukage. So before the downgrade, my tendency to fail ress (innate 58 con) could be overlooked. But ever since that day the change went in, I have been unable to keep on exp. Even when constantly zoning. Zoning means you risk death a lot more then doing exp, yet the exp rewards in exp zones are dramatically greater then the reward received via zoning.

Seems like an imbalance to me, surprised the Toril Checks and Balances hasn't done more about this.

Anyways, Sesexe became increasingly less and less fun to play as her once 350% and growing exp buffer began to systematically dwindle away, chunk by chunk. After being gone for most of a year, I came back for Targsk lead Evil's Tiamat. I had tried my hardest to work on enlarging my buffer, but it was a brutal trying to get exp as an evil, let a lone a cleric to do smoke with for actual GOOD exp for me. As a result, I lost for the first time ever, my level 50, but that's not what really bothered me. It was this: I had every intention of going on Targsk's next Evil's Tiamat, but I couldn't. Even when exp'n as much as I could, I saw that I was never going to be able to make a suitable buffer.

I say all this because I want people to know exactly why I can't seem to get back into the mud after being gone. It's not some other game pulling me away begging me to play it instead of the mud. It's the fact that I know the exact aggravation I'm walking back into, and I don't want it.

In summary, I don't know if I agree with removing exp loss, or ress f/x. I don't think I’m for that at all, but what I do know is there needs to be a dramatic increase in the exp received via zoning with a group, as opposed to increasing the exp rewards for zone mobs (to prevent twinking). I believe this goes back to the years old suggestion that they remove, or more preferably reformulate, the group exp penalty. In essence, this is a CODE ISSUE not an AREAS ISSUE I'd like to see addressed.

Support Player Grouping. Remove the Group EXP penalty.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:37 am

experience: the accumulation of knowledge or skill that results from direct participation in events or activities

What do we xp for, some to quest, some to enjoy, but I guess mostly to do zones? Yet killing the same mobs over and over at some point in time is just repetition.

It's already a fact that lvl'ing is grinding, low-mid game is grinding, etc.

There's a lot of previous high lvl zones that don't get done much anymore, and with the precious time slot that there are enough people to go zoning it's not "worth it" to do those zones and instead do the more worthwhile zone. True middle level players then don't have chances to acquire incremental gear. It's harder to do some quests overall, etc. etc.

Why not review those middle previous high-lvl zones, tweak them so that they can be done reasonably with a true mid-lvl or smallish high level group? There's a risk that might be twinked, but for players that have that ability I don't think they'd go out of their way to do that for the zones in mind. Also increase experience in those zones.

It'd be more content to lower level players, more content to a wider range of time zones, and a better way to gain real experience for the harder zones later. Why not be able to do a 60 min "zone" and come out with 20% xp, when you can get 20-50 (or more if you're decked out in gear) in the same amount of time?

Maybe put good xp rewards at the end of some zones instead, like a scroll or potion. That way high lvl players who organize these zones will get something for their time, while the mid-lvl or people who want eq from those zones will be able to get the eq. I just thought of that, might even be better. So instead of a lvl 40 zone leader alt grinding DS in xp which he can do pretty efficiently, he might lead a mid-lvl zone w/new people and still get the xp that he would've got in that amount of time.

Otherwise we have a lot of content just sadly being under-played.
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Postby Sarell » Wed Mar 08, 2006 7:43 am

I like Ifin's thinking. However if you just made trophy mean something and lowered tables I'd go to CC for fun exp. I'd go to demi, jot, UD, um2, brass, planes, scorps, clouds, etc etc.. a whole host of zones that would yield good exp. If we can't get the act of balancing exp down, modifying every midlevel zone isn't going to happen in the next 10 years. Don't ASK for another gear changes for gods sake :P

Can't believe I havn't said it yet this thread....

upgrade trophy - downgrade tables.

But until then, set exp loss on death to 5% 0% on sucessful res I think would get people less disenchanted with going zoning. In the long run, if i can take 5 people on a trip to some wierd UD place that doesn't get done instead of DS, that'd be great.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:25 am

Nogs, upgrade trophy, downgrade tables would work as an overall solution, haha I remember that's been brought up to you lots before and is a good idea. Though I think up'ing those zone xp would be good too.

Also bringing up xp at places like Tower/HP/IC/MS where you actually have to pay attention while killing and mobs are slightly harder at their respective levels than Ship/DS/CM/Smoke. There's a lot more mob variety so you learn a lot more at those places.

Though I think 5% xp loss on death isn't that bad, as I don't think it should be entirely forward-progressing xp and I think 5% is a reasonable deterrent against complete recklessness at attacking mobs. I agree with !ress failures though; 25% is just ridulous in addition to other penalties, plus it isn't entirely a non-task to prepare your corpse (ie get back to central location/pres) in order to get a ress.

Leaving out super-decked chars/efhrs/etc., and avg char 45+ 5% is already 20 min - 1 hr of xp like Sarell said. What is the point of more time sink penalties when it's just making up stuff they've already gained at some point in time?
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Postby Yarash » Wed Mar 08, 2006 1:53 pm

Ifin wrote:Also bringing up xp at places like Tower/HP/IC/MS where you actually have to pay attention while killing and mobs are slightly harder at their respective levels than Ship/DS/CM/Smoke. There's a lot more mob variety so you learn a lot more at those places.

I don't think those first areas are any harder than the second areas, and in terms of mob variety, they have less or at least no more. However, the big issue seems to be that a lot of older mobs are classless. It would be pretty cool if they were given classes and the exp bonuses associated with those classes.

Also, someone had an idea to give an exp bonus for aggro mobs. I think that was a fantastic idea. Most zones have aggro mobs, most exp areas do not. This would also make the randar's exp area (which most people are afraid to do) more desirable.

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Postby Shevarash » Wed Mar 08, 2006 4:58 pm

I hear you, and for the most part I agree on the major points of this thread.

Experience gain and loss will be addressed in an upcoming project, and I know you hate to hear it, but the details will be released as soon as its ready. I have no hard timeline, but we're dealing in weeks or months here, not years.

One of my primary goals with experience gain/loss is to reduce pointless grinding and downtimes and encourage grouping and engaging gameplay. Obviously thats alot harder than it sounds, but we won't get any closer to that goal until we take the first step, and that step is coming.

In the meantime, I welcome more constructive feedback on the experience issue. This thread specifically is a great example of constructive criticism that I can refer to when implementing changes...keep it up!
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Postby Dalar » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:08 pm

OR, you could put a fix it in to alleviate the problem until your project finishes in 2008.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Shevarash » Wed Mar 08, 2006 5:26 pm

Anyone who wonders why I don't talk about projects, there's your answer in the post above. I post a perfectly forthright and honest update and I get a slam in response.
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Postby Drache » Wed Mar 08, 2006 8:02 pm

Dalar's just grumpy cuz he didn't 'slam' any knooter last night! :P
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Postby Maedor » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:20 pm

Thilindel wrote:failing res as my chanter is a full literal day of xp'g. It's stupid.


A chanter can solo 15-20% per hour. You make constant references to how horrible chanter xp is...but...it just isn't that bad:)

I also cast 20 moonwells with my druid, and didn't fail a single one:P Either your chars have some serious suck factor figured in to some hidden stat (like amak/deshana ress fail), or you exaggerate everything a lot:P Granted..failing ress does suck..especially if you fail more than the 6% that the general mud population fails
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Postby Maedor » Thu Mar 09, 2006 7:30 pm

Sarell wrote:But until then, set exp loss on death to 5% 0% on sucessful res I think would get people less disenchanted with going zoning. In the long run, if i can take 5 people on a trip to some wierd UD place that doesn't get done instead of DS, that'd be great.


I don't agree with only a 5% penalty for death. The general mud population only fails ress 6% of the time, roughly. Failing 1 out of every 20ish resses really doesn't seem out of line.

What totally sucks is when chars like Amak and Deshana have proven their ress fail rate to be upwards of 75%. THAT is all sorts of messed up, and I wish the staff could explain why a very select group of chars fail an INSANE % of ress. (and i don't believe that con is the true issue here..seeing how Amak is a friggin barbarian:P My 90con elf doesn't fail any more than my 100con barb, or my 83con human)

Don't take away ress fx
Don't take away 25% xp penalty
Don't increase xp given back from ress

DO increase zone xp
DO fix whatever bugis causing some players to fail WAY more resses
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Postby Dalar » Thu Mar 09, 2006 9:38 pm

Shevarash wrote:Anyone who wonders why I don't talk about projects, there's your answer in the post above. I post a perfectly forthright and honest update and I get a slam in response.


Anyone who wonders why I slam, see the god response to this exact same topic that has been brought up every month. Immortals say you're aware of the problem and it will be addressed. Keep in mind your projects have taken how long to appear in its beta stage. Tiamat was a 2 year project? 2008 sounds like a good estimate. Why not put in a temp fix until you release the project that will address this issue? Here's two:

Make res fail recover half the exp that is normally recovered
After failing a res, the exp loss can be recovered at a 2x rate until you have gained the amount of exp lost.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Thilindel » Fri Mar 10, 2006 4:57 am

Well, I define a full day as my relative time available to play. Hard to literally play a day with a little guy around :P But, at lvl 48, it takes 2 kills at least per %, so I just use constriction and numerous memouts, at 15% (the lowest you said you can get/hour) that'd be 30 kills, meaning one per 2 minutes. That's not possible to solo in that time - specially the memming out part. You need to show me how you're xp'g! :P
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Postby Maedor » Sat Mar 11, 2006 3:39 am

Thilindel wrote:Well, I define a full day as my relative time available to play. Hard to literally play a day with a little guy around :P But, at lvl 48, it takes 2 kills at least per %, so I just use constriction and numerous memouts, at 15% (the lowest you said you can get/hour) that'd be 30 kills, meaning one per 2 minutes. That's not possible to solo in that time - specially the memming out part. You need to show me how you're xp'g! :P


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