Cleric Primary Skills

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Cleric Primary Skills

Postby Verzul » Wed May 10, 2006 3:21 pm

Clerics have all their spellcasting skills as intellect based, as well as Specialize Healing.

I would think that clerics having their primary stat as wisdom, would be wisdom based casters. This is why Quick Chant, Meditate, Specialize healing, etc all notch slower. Can this be fixed please for all priests?
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Wed May 10, 2006 4:20 pm

This is being addressed.
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Postby Ambar » Wed May 10, 2006 7:28 pm

same deal with battlechanter, they are shaman/rogue hybrid should they be based on wisdom as well?
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Postby Shevarash » Thu May 11, 2006 1:08 am

Also being addressed. :)
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Postby Drache » Thu May 11, 2006 4:45 am

Shevarash wrote:Also being addressed. :)


"PROTECTION FROM GORMAL"
Spell.

Area of effect: <hind quarters>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: Hopefully
Duration: As long as needed for quick getaway
Class/Circle: Goat 10th
Type of spell: Protection

A goat affected by this spell will not be "attacked" by a gormal or other lesser dwarf!


You should address this too! Oh. . . the humanity!
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Postby Gormal » Fri May 12, 2006 9:26 pm

Shev, are you going to make any changes to a clerics physical prowess as well? IE: double attack, self haste, whatever? Why can all classes get perm haste eq now except for casters where it matters the least?:P
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Postby Thilindel » Sat May 13, 2006 5:30 am

I'm 110% behind that even if you were kidding. Clerics _should_ be decent hitters and modest tanks. The mud may be loosely based off D&D but here, clerics are frail, offensively pathetic critters.
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Postby Gormal » Sat May 13, 2006 6:07 am

I'm dead serious... clerics are incredibly one-dimensional compared to every other spell-casting class. Dburst was an awesome addition but I think that battlecleric should be a code-supported viable option.
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Postby Silverast Rubicyn » Sat May 13, 2006 2:26 pm

If your going to be changing a bchanters stat to wisdom, you might wanna warn current bchanters. A while back when it was first noticed that int was the primary stat and not wis, there was a whole lot of stat switching going on, and I know that because of that, I rolled my bchanter for good int and not wis.
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Postby Ambar » Sat May 13, 2006 4:54 pm

Silverast Rubicyn wrote:If your going to be changing a bchanters stat to wisdom, you might wanna warn current bchanters. A while back when it was first noticed that int was the primary stat and not wis, there was a whole lot of stat switching going on, and I know that because of that, I rolled my bchanter for good int and not wis.


I'd assume they'd do for battlechanters what they did for ranger when it was changed for them, allow the two stats to be swapped. I rolled mine for mighty int as well.

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Postby kiryan » Sat May 13, 2006 8:37 pm

modest tank

The "modest" tank used to be implemented via AC. AC on equipment wearable by mages and particularly rogues has gone through the roof in the past 4 years, particularly in the past 2 years. Any player at -130 to -150 ac is a modest tank, unfortunately more non-tank classes can get there now.

The EQ calcr should factor in class when determining points for certain attributes. AC should cost a buttload for mage wearable gear, a lot for rogue wearable eq, a little for clerics and be nearly free for fighters. Alternatively AC should be concentrated in slots like on body and shield.

I have two suggestions for fixing AC.

suggestion #1 - the easy solution.

cap worn AC at 100 for mages, 150 for rogues, 200 for priests and fighters.

suggestion #2 - the equipment approach.

1. eliminate the AC cap of 200 worn AC (or at least increase it to 300 or 400).

2. double or triple the AC for all platemail (target 80-100 AC).

3. double or triple AC on shields (target 45-60).

4. turn up mob thac0 knob (leave players alone since mob ac isn't really going up)

5. review any shield that is mageable (if rogues want to sacrifice an attack for a shield, its a fair tradeoff). Alternatively, make it impossible for a mage to cast a spell while wearing a shield (do it for wielding a weapon also *lick*).

6. make all platemail not wearable by rogues/mages (unless you implement penalities to rogue skills or mage casting like always failing QC and failing circle/trip 90% of the time)

7. stop implementing eq with stupid amounts of AC. particularly eq wearable by mages and rogues.

---

Battle priest

battle priest is already implemented if you ask me. years ago, you could only get about 20 damroll for priests because nearly all +dam equipment was !priest (hitroll was never a problem). Today there are so many !bits +dam equipment that you could probably get a priest to 40 dam. Jot invasion added a 3 dam nobits earring, izans added 3 dam wrists and sleeves... the list goes on.

Last time I checked, valhalla was !bits, so every class does have a haste item, you just have to use valhalla. The only other classes that get a class specific haste item are rangers and rogues... the damage classes which makes perfect sense.

I'm sure someone is going to say oh just give them haste because they contribute so little damage it doesnt make any difference... so... if we give them haste.... they aren't going to do any more damage to make a difference... but the presence of haste will somehow make you a battle priest? non sequitur.

Besides that, haste does you ZERO good if your casting. The best idea I've seen to make priests more battle worthy is to make it so casting prayers doesn't keep you from attacking... Leave it for mages, they're magic is usually based more on components and hand gestures, chanting magic words just so and crap, stuff you couldn't do while fighting, but I think you could make a case for priests being able to cast a prayer while dodging attacks and swinging weapons. A change like this might make mobs a little more interesting too (oh and at the same time, make mages unable to dodge while chanting their high circle spells).

Another big problem with providing priests with haste is that in general, they would now get 2 attacks with a 2h weapon (because they can) and warriors would get 3 with a 1h weapon (because they need a shield to tank) and I don't think that sounds right.
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Postby Thilindel » Sat May 13, 2006 8:59 pm

kiryan wrote:modest tank




The only other classes that get a class specific haste item are rangers and rogues... the damage classes which makes perfect sense.
...

Another big problem with providing priests with haste is that in general, they would now get 2 attacks with a 2h weapon (because they can) and warriors would get 3 with a 1h weapon (because they need a shield to tank) and I don't think that sounds right.


So it seems more correct that a rogue would hit more often and do more damage than a warrior? I straight up don't understand how rogues are they way they are on this mud. Rogues don't do outright damage in D&D, nor do they get more attacks, have better thac0, etc. Here, clerics are worse hitters than rogues. I'm confused why stuff is the way it is.

Mages don't get defense skill, so even though you can get below -100, they still aren't good tanks, not even fair. There are several mages I looked up that are -10 AC in D&D, so it's quite possible.

Here:

Warriors are only meatshields
Rogues are stealth, cheese, damage, etc
Clerics are health
Mages are cheese, damage etc.

There's no balance at all :(
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Postby Thilindel » Sun May 14, 2006 12:56 am

I really liked soj1 for it's hybrid classes, like warrior/rogue (mercenary) and others. I wonder how people would feel to have a battle cleric with 50% warrior abilities. Have medium of warrior/cleric hps, and 50% healing ability. So they'd get full heal, but it would heal 180 hps about. I personally don't see a paladin as this but who knows.
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Postby kiryan » Sun May 14, 2006 3:49 am

interesting point...

I do remember rogues not doing tons of damage by virtue of # attacks and damroll... but they did do tremendous damage by getting a 2-4x multipler when attacking from the back... so although i could see haste as being inaccurate implementation of rogue damage, it does still translate into damage, which was a major part of being a thief in dnd imo.

I do agree that thieves have way more of an emphasis on stealth and pick locking in DND than they do here... but those features don't really translate well into the mud imo. There really isn't a whole lot of "information" to learn by sneaking around and doing listen checks, or opening up desk drawers ect... You can't really do ambushes and sneak attacks or scale walls and do tricky stuff here.
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Postby Demuladon » Sun May 14, 2006 11:12 am

Thilindel wrote:
Have medium of warrior/cleric hps, and 50% healing ability. So they'd get full heal,



I'd love to see multiclass chars on this mud.. would add to and extend the game enormously.

How to stop multiclass overpowering would be the trick.. a 50%/50%war/cleric maybe lvl25/25?
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Postby Thilindel » Sun May 14, 2006 5:34 pm

only bad thing about 25/25 type skills is at lvl 25, you are completely useless in a zone.
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Postby Drache » Wed May 17, 2006 3:17 am

I just spent some time solo'g as my cleric. Please PLEASE make this class more fun. Full harm, blind, full harm, blind wears off before you sneeze, full harm. so boring :(
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Postby Latreg » Wed May 17, 2006 12:23 pm

Drache wrote:I just spent some time solo'g as my cleric. Please PLEASE make this class more fun. Full harm, blind, full harm, blind wears off before you sneeze, full harm. so boring :(


It has been a really boring class for a really long time, but it will get you invited into zone and exp groups very often. If you want to solo stuff play a different class. Shamans get a pet tank you may want to try that class, good luck.
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Postby Marix » Wed May 17, 2006 3:47 pm

Clerics-
I've played Clerics in both second edition D&D and sojourn. Honestly the main difference is the lack of damage (from spells) not the tanking ability. Clerics in D&D can tank decently but are primarily meant to support the other players as they do in Sojourn. One of the big differences is that in D&D clerics can get many of the spells available to druids in this game. But, if this were to be implemented here...clerics would pretty much own. I've actually seen a high level cleric in D&D tank down mobs that many other classes simply could not...and not always undead. That said, in order to balance things on Sojourn maybe clerics should be better tanks than they are. However as a level 50 cleric i'm fine with the way things are currently...and oh btw...i did have to solo a bunch myself to get this level when i originally got it years ago, so it is possible.
Fighters(warriors)-
Warriors need to do more damage. Their warriors...they should be able to kick the crap out of people...it's in the job description. I suggest one way to do this is with the implementation of weapon specialization. Much like spell specialization weapon specialization could be for a particular type of weapon group for example 2h slashing specialization. Make it so as the skill goes up they do more damage and have higher hitroll with that weapon group. I think it would help balance things greatly. *and yeah it's in D&D too* (paladins are pretty much where they should be in my opinion though since they do get a bonus to 2h slashing all ready)
Rogues-
Rogues should do less damage, a rogue doing more damage than a mage is just silly. They make up for it with backstab and assassinate and their bonus skills like hide and sneak...rogues are rogues..they aren't damage. I know i'll be hated for it, but it's the way it is.
Mages-
Mages are as they should be...I don't really have a problem with them.

just my thoughts on the matter...if anything i'm stressing weapon specialization for warriors.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed May 17, 2006 5:21 pm

Ya know, it seems that since heal cures blind, that harm/full harm should have a _chance_ to blind. Psst, make heal undead cure blind on undead!
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Postby kiryan » Wed May 17, 2006 9:24 pm

I don't know if I agree that mages should do more damage than rogues, and I think damage is quite a bit more complicated than we can do justice to here in this cleric thread.

but, I've sidetracked this discussion enough...

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 974#164974

btw, if you think cleric is boring, try playing invoker. At least you make real choices as a cleric instead of pounding your damage macro with a target.
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Postby Gormal » Thu May 18, 2006 6:49 pm

I think that clerics suffer from 2 fairly new problems:

1) Extensive group healing. - Between bards, and multiple shamans, there's little need for clerics to heal that often. Any more than one cleric in a zone and you're just a vit machine. If you have to fight a dragon, you might toss heals to compensate for procs but its just not as critical as it used to be.

2) Spell Buffs - Super-spellbuffed tanks rescuing well means that if you heal anyone, its them and only when ench/illus are slow on scales/blur/disp. I feel like a vit machine with an emergency band aid anymore.


I maintain that battlecleric should be a skill-supported viable role for clerics. "You can get Tiamat gear" is a horrible solution. Multi-role classes are the most fun (elem, illus, shaman, etc). Right now, clerics are eseentially a one-trick pony unless you're fighting undead. Skills like double attack, self-only buff, unique skill, and maybe a cool haste item or two don't affect the outcome of large group stuff very much as casting negates melee.
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Postby kiryan » Thu May 18, 2006 10:02 pm

i really really disagree with a haste item or spell for clerics. The best argument is exactly what you said, because it wouldn't matter as casting negates melee. Make a change that makes sense, not one that doesn't have any real impact.

I'd much rather see double attack and/or casting prayers not negate melee.
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Postby Sarell » Fri May 19, 2006 12:44 am

I don't think that rogues do more damage than mages. I don't mean they shouldn't, I mean if you think that they currently do your are most likely mistaken. They do on some mobs, but mostly not.

You wan't a clericy warrior? Um, don't paladins get the heal spell? Layhands? Bless? Perhaps giving paladins vit is the answer we are looking for? OMG yep, give paladins vit!

Warriors need a boost. In neverwinter nights my warrior can take the time to use a healing kit. Some little bandages and things I imagine. Warriors should be able to tend to their own wounds out of combat with healing kits!

Thilendel casters get great defensive skills. Dragonscales, barkskin, mirror image, displace and blur come to mind. Full heal self doesn't hurt aswell.

Whenever someone is looking at what a rogue can do, it seem's to be what a rogue and another class can do. My chanter can do a hell of a lot more to a mob or group of mobs than my rogue.

High AC velvet is stupid.

What a massive thread of various things, BTW, totally agree with the topic spellcast healing etc should be wis based.
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Postby Thilindel » Fri May 19, 2006 1:11 am

Sarell wrote:Thilendel casters get great defensive skills. Dragonscales, barkskin, mirror image, displace and blur come to mind. Full heal self doesn't hurt aswell.


Those listed aren't skills, they're spells. That's what's sad on this mud. Its melee system, from a player's standpoint, is actually pivotal from the caster's support. I fully agree with Gormal that double attack would be a great first step in breathing life in the the fun of cleric. Make the cap worse than a warriors, obviously, but the fun factor isn't there for clerics. Oh, as for rogue vs. invoker, when I was counting rounds for an enchanter who was only hasting/scaling the khanji rogue, said rogue took less rounds than an invoker to kill DS mobs. Pretty crazy. Once rogues get khanji's, they should by default, have a title: Mobmower.
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Postby Sarell » Fri May 19, 2006 1:23 am

I knew someone would mention treants. If 50 more zones come in with only treants then rogues will do more than vokers. But liches will do more than both :P. On a whole, I don't think rogues do more damage than invokers. On high MR single demons that arn't fluxed they do do more aswell btw for anyone that was thinking about it :P
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Postby Thilindel » Fri May 19, 2006 1:56 am

Hrm, I'm not talking treants. I wasn't implying that with backstab and khanji's crazy bursting damage. I'm just saying that a rogue standing there and sneaking extra attacks from escaping in and out kills relatively as fast as a lich with pets. I've watched Aluvon, and (forgot the other guy's name) doing ds against a khanji rogue who had either a fhealer or scaler. Rogues are really pumping out damage. Then you see that, and think about clerics and then Gormal's idea, which was very similar to mine in the past - Battleclerics. How can anybody see a khanji rogue in action complain (not saying you or anybody specifically is) about a cleric getting more offensive melee and hopefully spells' boost.

I don't know about others, but what makes games, etc sell is the fun factor, not utility. Clerics are not fun at all to solo. They're really one-sided in zoning as well. And when a game is based from D&D and the 2 classes compared here (rogue vs. cleric damage) is totally out of whack from the game in which it's based.

WARRIOR
Sub-Class of: Fighter There's not even a fighter class offered

Warriors have more strength than the average player, and this makes
them better at hand-to-hand combat. They possess skills of fighting
that are unequaled by members of any other class. Because they employ
such finesse in their fighting tactics, warriors have been thought to
resemble swashbucklers or fencers when at their best. They are, in
essence, the ultimate fighter, and as such, are the best in the world
at skills such as bash, rescue, kick, and parry. The advantages of
being a warrior lie within these skills.


That was for a good laugh. Damage is from rogues. It's so close when you compare rangers vs. rogues. I think Kiryan has posted in the past but you have to deck both fully before you can truly say. Without Khanji's tho, I doubt a rogue can touch archery.

And I honestly think damned near every class needs a good look at how they are on the mud vs. what they are based from in D&D. Clerics are 2nd in melee only to fighters. I'm fine with not given clerics the defensive skills, other than defense. However, clerics' melee is very much in need of being fixed. Are there really solo mages in D&D that are as powerful as elementalists are in this mud? I can't seem to find any. There's really no balance whatsoever. I have no idea how this would be remedied, but Kiryan's offered several posts in the past saying the same thing - redo classes, melee engine, etc.

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