Jot invasion 6/20

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Malia
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Jot invasion 6/20

Postby Malia » Tue Jun 20, 2006 7:13 pm

Jot invasion is up and I would like to form for this about 4pm PST 7pm EST. I hope posting it and letting 4 diffrent guilds know that we MIGHT have a chance to get enough in group to form. Thanks for your support.
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Postby Dalar » Wed Jun 21, 2006 3:04 am

wtf, does this take more than 15 now?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Malia
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Postby Malia » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:04 am

Really hope some of the area gods read this. First it took me all day to atempt to get 15 zoneable characters to attempt to lead jot invasion. after posting on 2 bbs, notifying 4 guilds + mine, and doing lfg for 5 hours every hour on the hour. I got 12 people to join after 20 min of begging i got the other 3.

So at 4:30 we start the zone, after 5 hours later most people have 3-5 corpses each we have 1 ring to show for 5 hours of zoning. We didnt even dent the lower grid and didnt even make it within 15 rooms of mage camp or thyrm let alone get to the castle.

This is a random rare load poped zone. Not something that can be planed like BC or Magma or TIA. No one has time to randomly just do a 12 hour zone. 3-5hr zone is really pushing it. The way jot invasion is now its at least a 10 hour zone prolly more, for eq thats not even really on par with magma (4-6hr zone). Infact recently alot of the new Jot invasion eq got dg'd

If i wanted to do a 12 hour zone id do TIA and walk away with some really nice stuff. At least when people do tia they know there are several REALLY nice pieces. Nothing even remotely close to what loads from jot invasion.

I for one am really tired of zones being made longer and longer and people having less and less time to zone. I spend more time trying to form a group then the zone itself actualy takes. I spend more energy trying to form by the time im actualy ready to zone I'm already beat and in a foul mood.

People post it over and over and over again that there is a problem and all we get is "hang in there something is comming" and its just not cutting it. People are posting tons of great ideas to help increase the pbase to help increase the amount of zoning people are doing and to increase the overall joy and experience of this mud. And yet, exact oppisite steps are being taken. Longer zones, less zoning, less grouping, less smitting more sitting around and doing in/out fights.

After tonights zone I think im done trying to lead and keep people busy. I cant get any of the help I need and its just getting harder and harder to stay motivated to play. To us that play the game daily it feels like no one upstairs really care how hard we try to keep this game afloat. We need more then "something is comming" (for 6months) Hope someone actualy reads and cares enough to do something about it.
Dugmaren mutters in a surly voice 'Got any new strategy or going to continue with the "throw bodies at them til they get bored"? '



Dranth group-says 'i started drinkin when i found out galzar would be here'



Nerox says 'careful she goes from 0 to bitch in .00000001 seconds'



Mugo ASSOC:: 'ah got it on my gaytimer now :P'
Adriorn Darkcloak
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100% Agreed

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:24 am

I wasted almost 6 hrs to lose xp. The zone was lead completely well and the group played excellently. 5+ hrs to get one piece of eq is just not realistic. I know many gods often say that 'rl is busy' etc, but please remember, so is ours. Giving up rl time for something like this is really frustrating. Some of us are trying to play every day and help the mud continue, help new players out, etc. Please help us continue and not get frustrated.
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Postby torkur » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:24 am

Being part of Jot invasion tonight, I can safely say that half the fights we did need to be halved in difficulty to speed it up 500%. I'd heard invasion used to take 3-6 hours......now 6 hours later I'm ressing my 5 corpses and we gave up at the wagon.

We didn't have a death until spank on the effreeti captain and kept on our toes. This took a couple hours of clearing and speedy memouts. After this, the wagon was just not worth it. 3 Beards to start all casting inferno, 2 shaman, 3-4 other warriors.....and then to destroy the wagon and have 5 beards, 1 captain, and 4 soldiers spawn right after is just TOO much. If it dropped a 100 hp ring it's still not worth it personally and that's not even close to the main eq mobs.

I haven't made it to Tia yet due to not having 12 hours on a weekend and jot invasion seems to now be on the list of stuff I should've done it college. Even Magma plane seems easier and less silly hard.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Jun 21, 2006 6:14 am

Man that sucks for you guys. I been logging on from time to time lately but since the who list was small I just log, which is part of the critical mass thing, but I'm surprised the imms haven't really made any move to at least show they realize the problem which is the scary thing.

This is a great game, awesome game, which is why it's so sad that the correct changes never got made to keep the game growing and people playing - people which keep the game flowing.

The first 2/3 invasions were awesome, excellent fights, great balance and pace, still took 6-10 hrs, but I remember we still had energy to do Musp invasion afterwards. Due to load rate, and effort to check Jot invasion and fun of zone, I remember being in Tia and heard Jot invasion loaded and wish I was there instead.

4 attempts post-change and it still being broken must really suck. 2nd attempt post change I thought it would be fixed so went, but we also spent like 5-6 hrs, got stuck at broken gate fight, 1 ring, and crash and nothing was done about it. And after that even when it loaded people wouldn't even want to do it. The change made the zone incredibly boring too, 1-2 hrs clearing totally easy 1-2 mob fights instead of actually challenging stuff that was there pre-change.

So I'm wondering, why was it even changed in the first place, or how come it wasn't a priority to fix given the # of previous attempts and hrs put in? And shouldn't some policies like reimbursement for lost time etc. be looked at now?

I understand that before it's hard to judge cases, but that's when there's many cases. Now it's single digit zones being done each week, with a lost due to a crash that just seems really counter-productive to fun.
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Postby Brandobaris » Wed Jun 21, 2006 7:55 am

Malia wrote:I for one am really tired of zones being made longer and longer...

So of all of Toril's zones at this point in time, which one do you feel is an example of an area that best meets your needs and the needs of our community?
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Postby Marthammor » Wed Jun 21, 2006 9:37 am

I've gotten quite a bit of feedback from the previous times invasion has been done or attempted, and I've used most of it. This invasion run wasn't changed a whole lot from previous ones with the exception of less wandering fire giants (about 30 less soldiers, and 10 less beards) on the lower grid, and the addition of a few fire giant patrols to add some spice to the otherwise wandering mobs.

If you have issues with the wagon, change your tactics. It is a doable fight if done correctly. Also, the wagon fight is totally skip-able should you not want to deal with it if you're time limited and such, same as the mage camp and Thrym.

There are some issues such as the patrol may be loading too fast, which I thought I had already toned down, but will cut it back some more. Will also knock the spell casting of the beards down some as well.

If you've got more constructive feedback, feel free to mmail me, post here, whatever. I tend to listen to most reasonable requests people have.


I also apologize for not being around for the run this evening. One of my hard drives in my raid 0 array died last week and I've been trying to get everything back up and running again.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:35 am

Brandobaris wrote:
Malia wrote:I for one am really tired of zones being made longer and longer...

So of all of Toril's zones at this point in time, which one do you feel is an example of an area that best meets your needs and the needs of our community?


See: zones before Izan's/Spob.

You know, zones that yielded 3-5 pieces of decent eq, some filler and generally didn't take more than 2 hours. Zones that didn't provide top-end eq for fully half your slots.

I'm fairly certain most would agree that Seelie Court is just about perfect.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jun 21, 2006 11:42 am

Marthammor wrote:I've gotten quite a bit of feedback from the previous times invasion has been done or attempted, and I've used most of it. This invasion run wasn't changed a whole lot from previous ones with the exception of less wandering fire giants (about 30 less soldiers, and 10 less beards) on the lower grid, and the addition of a few fire giant patrols to add some spice to the otherwise wandering mobs.

If you have issues with the wagon, change your tactics. It is a doable fight if done correctly. Also, the wagon fight is totally skip-able should you not want to deal with it if you're time limited and such, same as the mage camp and Thrym.

There are some issues such as the patrol may be loading too fast, which I thought I had already toned down, but will cut it back some more. Will also knock the spell casting of the beards down some as well.

If you've got more constructive feedback, feel free to mmail me, post here, whatever. I tend to listen to most reasonable requests people have.


I also apologize for not being around for the run this evening. One of my hard drives in my raid 0 array died last week and I've been trying to get everything back up and running again.


Can I just ask real quick: What was wrong with invasion how it was before all these sweeping changes?

I realize they were made to spice up a special instance, but you've destroyed one of the most talked about experiences in the game. Invasion load used to be the most fun zone to do as well as great eq, and rarely took more than 5-6 hours.

Now we deal with the zone changing every time it loads, stats being upgraded and downgraded constantly etc. Why not return it to what it used to be, move the newer items somewhere else for a different special instance or something and return the zone to a timeframe that doesn't require a month of notice.

I appreciate what Areas was attempting to do with the instance, but you need to look at the pbase and the times we are playing in. Too many people have already stated they have stopped playing a significant amount of time due to the time it takes to do things.

There are numerous threads about timesinks and the way they negatively impact the playerbase here. When is someone going to address this, and realize that waiting for new "shorter" zones to be written isn't going to do as much as shortening some of the already existing zones?

I hope it happens soon.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Postby Marthammor » Wed Jun 21, 2006 12:28 pm

You pretty much answered your own question. Invasion was changed to make it hard again and worthy of 15 level 50 players spending thier time to do it. I tried not to destroy what the original invasion was, while still adding difficulty and newer gear that most people would like to get their hands on.
I realize that right now invasion is hard to do with the limited players. If we could draw more new people or even old players back in a timely fashion, I'm fairly sure we would. There is a lot of code work going on right now that no one except the forgers is at liberty to discuss and I'm sure it will be worth waiting for.
Most of the ideas that have been posted to help bring in players are pretty good, however they also seem more like band aids that will likely have to be removed once the player base picks back up, so its a toss-up of taking time to implement a band aid and later remove it, or spend that time working on something more permanent and trying to keep the current players happy.

As for shorter zones with few but decent rewards.. there may be a few incoming. I've got one planned that can be done in stages and across multiple boots, but it may be awhile before I get to it. After I finish work on my current zone (which I'd guess is about 85-90% done), I'll be switching most of my efforts to help with the conversion of some of Homeland stuff.
Having said that, if you know of any Homeland zones that are short but have decent rewards like you guys are looking for, mmail areas with their names and we'll work on getting them in as time permits.
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Postby Vikaz » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:02 pm

Marthammor wrote:Having said that, if you know of any Homeland zones that are short but have decent rewards like you guys are looking for, mmail areas with their names and we'll work on getting them in as time permits.


Kenjin Tower comes to mind. One of the best zones in HL as well. You can 5 man it in 4 hrs, or do it with a full group in 1hr. One of the most fun and interactive zones in HL, you actually had to plan ahead depending on group compsition. Fuck It Charge just wont work on this zone.
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:24 pm

I was not there for it. But I was there for the xp party last time.

I agree with those that think it should require a full group. Two players should not be able to do it, even if they spend extra time.

Considering you get more eq than magma, then you could argue it should take around 6-8 hours. But considering it is rare then you could argue it should take around 4-5. I hope the 12 hours somehow can be cut down.

I am aware that players can do zone better and without any zone-changes do it faster. I doubt however that it can be cut down to the time it takes to do Seelie.
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Postby Malia » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:27 pm

This zone cannot be planned, this zone isnt something that you can say Hey on July 4th weekend lets do this. Jot current way it is is like doing Tia 10-12 hours. About skipping fights.. who are you kidding, no one likes to skip fights and just get 1 main piece of eq. BTW we did try to go through big 10-16 giant rooms of giants and we couldnt even kill the 5 before 5 more poped. We killed more giants then all of muspel has if you killed ever giant in the zone.

This is a random poped zone, IF its gonna be done its most likely gonna be done between 7-1am est. That being the case you got at most 6 hours to do the zones which is what i hoped for when i considered forming. As it was we spent 5 in there and barely dented the lower grid.

As for for the supply wagon fight. Its a doable fight sure, not saying its not. But why the hell make it a End Zone like fight? You expect tough fights at the end. Like BC or magma or something, but you dont expect to have those fights that take alot and people die a ton throughout the whole zone. For eq thats not even on par with magma. Doesnt even matter what the eq is, its not something you can plan so doining it at drop of a hat isnt really doable when its a freaking 12hour zone.

About the group. We had a SOLID group. Not something just thrown together. With that group i expect jot invasion to take 4-6 hours. 4-6 hours is what jot invasion should take to kill all nesessary mobs and all eq mobs.

Things i do enjoy about jot invasion. I love the change with the devices that rocks. Making it not teleportable till you work your way in to smite the device is really good. I like the amount of mobs, prolly could add a few at least from what we saw on lower grid. We had fun clearing and smitting up to the point of the supply wagon fight. The dragon riding captain is great, slow down his patrol route so you can try to time an entry or something hes moving rather quick.

Suggestions to change:
1) have the large groups of 10 giants not be fighting and poping. Have them about to engage or something. I say this cuz having mobs pop in this type of zone isnt fun and just a time sink but i dont wanna take out the fun fights. We enjoyed charging 10 giants till 10 more poped before we could kill those 10, and another 5 before we killed the new ones and old ones. Dont slow down the pop rate, nuke it. There are lots of giants to kill they dont need to constantly pop. Again this is just a time sink.

2)Really change the wagon fight the first fight itself is difficult but doable, we had issues cuz we didnt want to kill the wagon and have another group jump us but its doable. Nuke the 2nd group that comes in, whatever eq they have put it on the supply wagon in the crate. Make the supply wagon not killable until all the other mobs in room are dead or something and that be the end of that.

If you plan 1 hours on lower grid 1 on thyrym 1 on mage camp 1 on upper grid and 2 on castle (its the end of the zone) then its more manageable. We spent 5 on lower grid and still barely dented it thats just ridiculous.

This zone used to be the epitome of what this game was. This used to be the zone that everyone raced to see if it loaded. This used to be the zone that EVERYONE wanted to say they got a chance to do. Now.... Its dreaded, its loaded 3x in the last 2 months (not counting this time) and wasnt even attempted or even attempted to form for. Its really sad. I know for sure i will avoid it like the plague until its down to 4-6 hour zone again. Im sure others in the group feel the same way.

The zones id like to see modled:
mid lvl zoning: lizard marsh, ohp, tf, sf, IC,TE, jot, muspel, brass

higher end daily zones: seelie court, izans, full ttf

(i think jot invasion should fall here inbetween these)

epic zones that should be planed for: BC, Magma, IC2

Most Epic of zones: Tia (still needs to be down to about 8-10hrs)

Hope this helps and thanks to marth and brando for replying.
Dugmaren mutters in a surly voice 'Got any new strategy or going to continue with the "throw bodies at them til they get bored"? '



Dranth group-says 'i started drinkin when i found out galzar would be here'



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Postby bawog » Wed Jun 21, 2006 1:40 pm

I can really feel the frustration of Malia here on this one in terms of having to beg people to get into zone group. I myself have tried to form several groups to no avail and having to abort after wasting people's time and that is just sad. The only that i respectfull ask is what is being done to address the situations at hand? As far as I can tell nothing...we have been promised something coming forever now and still there is nothing to show for it. The pbase dwindles and yet areas come in that take longer and longer. Most of this has already been said in previous posts but after watching the frustration of those in invasion last night it just makes me not to log on anymore! I love this mud and hate to see it go down in flames, but with nothing new coming in where is the motivation for people to log back on. Well that is all for now, I hope that something is done to help kick start this mud again or it will slowly kill itself off, and that would be very bad to those of us who still log on a daily basis and try to play.
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Postby Naled » Wed Jun 21, 2006 4:32 pm

I wasn't there for invasion, but even if I was there I wouldn't have been able to come. 6+ hour zones i have to plan ahead and even then I only can spend that much time during the weekend. Hell if it's more than 3-4 hours i have to plan it. The pbase is shrinking, everybody is shouting that zones take too long. With that in mind I have a bit of a problem understanding the rational of making a random popping zone take 6 hours, let alone almost 10 hours. And then downgrading the eq in the process. My first reaction was "are they purposely killing the mud off?"

I've been on previous invasion runs, and it's a real cool zone, it really is. I can readily imagine you writing this zones, and be proud of what you created. And it is a really well written zone, 10 years ago. But with the current state of the mud, it will never get done'simply because it is too long. Every zone that last longer than say 4 hours is a waste because it won't get done. Maybe except epic zones like BC, Magma and Tia that get done a few times a year. But we have enough of those. What use are adding zones that get done 4 times a year? We need zones that can be done everyday.

Looking at what comes from zones like spob, Izans or muspel invasion the eq was fine. I'd say tone the zone down so it takes 3 hours max, and maybe make some items rareload if you think the time/reward ratio is off' and restore the eq. Otherwise you're having a great zone that will never get done again.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jun 21, 2006 5:21 pm

Doug and Ross pretty much said it all. Throw my lot in with them.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jun 21, 2006 8:38 pm

Marthammor wrote:I realize that right now invasion is hard to do with the limited players. If we could draw more new people or even old players back in a timely fashion, I'm fairly sure we would. There is a lot of code work going on right now that no one except the forgers is at liberty to discuss and I'm sure it will be worth waiting for.


This is the statement that is killing this place. You aren't drawing new players. You are pissing off the older players. You are making people find other things to do.

Nothing worth waiting for is worth losing 10 more people in the process. The development forum hasn't been used in over a year, yet you want new players to stop by the website and check this place out? If I came to a brand new mud and saw a year went by without anything being announced, I'd find somewhere else to play.

Get off yer collective "It's being worked on" and start providing real details. It's not hard to summarize what exactly is being worked on, or to come up with a few details of the work without compromising it. Is it too much to ask that you keep your players in the light on what is coming down the line? No one wants to wait in the dark.

There are a lot of people who just plain love this game but will not play until some of the promises are kept. Most of us still lobbying for this kind of thing are trying to help you right the ship. We're the ones who have friends that have walked away. We know why they left, and we're trying to get you to understand.
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Postby Ifin » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:10 am

Don't know how to quote, but Doug was right on. Marth's quote:


I realize that right now invasion is hard to do with the limited players. If we could draw more new people or even old players back in a timely fashion, I'm fairly sure we would. There is a lot of code work going on right now that no one except the forgers is at liberty to discuss and I'm sure it will be worth waiting for.


The problem has been realized - new players or get back older players. Middle players are more or less content b/c they're still growing, but they don't have the players on each side to make the activity to want to play.

But wow, any solutions to solve the problem or anything at all has not seen daylight.

The question is, do you honestly think that any NEW players that have visited the MUD over the past year really sticked with it? I seriously doubt it, and I haven't seen any new faces over level 30 really for a long long time.

Is there anything to keep older players motivated to play the game once they hit the eq ceiling? Barely, b/c there's no other way of progress, and I don't see how ANY amount of code or anything acknowledged or hinted at by the people in charge will change any of this.

To parse even more, timely fashion? Lot of code work???

The right changes don't need a lot of code work and can be implemented in a timely fashion, but right now the path has been to implement non-growth items in a NOT timely fashion through the use of lot of code work.
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Postby Tala_Darkraven » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:42 am

Just to let those that think there arent new faces out and about, there are.

Since I started I have ran into at least 10 to 15 people trying out the mud and several have stuck around.(myself included). I played back in the mid to 90's so im not new, but started from zero just as I did the first time I logged in.

I see where the complaints are coming from and fully understand why. I do agree that the mud needs to adapt to the player base. Shorter time frame for zones would help the higher end player.

Skill growth and time sinks such as hide/ sneak practice are a drag, but thats the way it is.

I see alot of complaining here and cant help but wonder how many people consider creating a character here only to read these boards and decide not to join at all.

There are several great people that play this mud. I have benefited greatly from the help of those people and it has made me want to stay here.

I hope somone considering toril reads this, and gives this mud a shot. There are some very helpful friendly people here. So go ahead and roll up a character and join in the fun.
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Postby Ifin » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:53 am

Tala, glad you decided to stay and play, always good and that a couple other people have to supposedly as well.

I can only comment from what I've seen about the newbie games, and that's players that I played with when I start my alts just disappear. I can also say that if you log "who sort 40" everyday for, say, 1/2 a year, you won't see much difference, and it's probably 90% true for "who sort 30" which means no growth of newer players past a certain point. I can also say that, sure old players will come back, but I reckon truly new players, even those who have played a MUD before but never been to Toril, which I figure are those we target on 3rd party voting sites, need serious willpower to stick it out.

2/3rds of the race/class combos are crazy to play from the onset, and if they are lucky to pick the other 1/3rd it's still very much of a struggle.

Sure there's some negativity in some posts, but a lot of posts have a lot of comments about the negative aspects of the game trying to improve them, which are not negative in itself. Would it be better if no one spoke of anything but praises and have a quiet forum? It's sad to see the forum, auction, WD shouts etc. quiet b/c that just shows lack of activity.
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Postby Tala_Darkraven » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:19 am

I see what you are saying Ifin.

You are correct, this forum is meant to discuss the game, and it is being used exactly the way it should be. I am not saying dont voice your opinions, or did I mention that it was negative.

I just, basicaly, wanted to say there are a few new faces out there working to be better.
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Postby Botef » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:01 am

Personally from all the people I've gotten to try Toril in the last few years, level 1-20 were not at all an issue...

I've tried to get quite a few players hooked, and have succeeded with a few people. The NUMBER 1 complaint and reason people leave that I hear is that you get to level 20, leave scardale and are for the most part alone...The low end playerbase isn't too bad, its the middle ground thats entirely lacking of 'fun'. 1-20 your learning your class basics, which is exciting...But after that you hit an xp grind with little else going on till 40ish aside from new skills/circles...Their sense of accomplishment is almost strictly in XP progress, as the majority of eq will be given to them or bought from auction, not from actual zoning experiences. There simply are not enough 'new' players to form groups of them to do small zones like Westfalls for eq that won't be made obsolete by a handout an hour later.

New players reach 20-30 and see that they still have a huge XP grind before the game gets remotely interesting, from their stand point and perspective based on their interactions with other players...Some do inevitably tough it out and make it to their first few zoning experiences which revitalizes their desire to keep playing and ultimately gets them hooked....But many of the others only see a long and sometimes impossible xp grind before experiencing what they want which leads to them saying something along the lines of 'I really dont feel like months of xping to get my first taste of this thing you guys call zoning'

5 or 6 years ago there was a mid-level pbase and groups of new players trying to do 'zones' that now days only see activity when someone needs to solo a quest item. In my opinion this is the key reason new players don't stay.
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Postby Brandobaris » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:25 am

So my understanding then, from the comments I've read, is that we need more zones of similar configuration to that of Seelie Court. (Mob levels, quantity, groups, average number of rewards, etc.)

Are people doing SC regularly though? I thought a large group was needed to do the zone.
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Postby torkur » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:00 am

SC in terms of difficulty- Basically, make a core group for stuff high levels wear and have it take 2-3 hours. We can get home from work, do the zone, res up, and hit the sack. Things like that get people to zone 2-4 nights a week and still hold down a job and family life. Hardcore gamers do 2 a night or so. This is where most people seem to be in life.

Zones like Jot invasion- get home from work, find a sweet group, zone from 7pm-1am, win an item you treasure or something you'll damn sure get next time and go to bed with a smile once a week or 2.

Zones like Tiamat- you plan, take vacation time for (F'ing make one with more notice and I can!) and spend the entire weekend on. Win something godly or bitch up a storm to friends and work that much harder to go next month.

Zones in the low-mid level- You do on your day off during the off times with 5-10 people, have fun, take new people to, use on alts or use for quest items to upgrade high level zones. Worth picking up off the ground, but not going to help u live in Tiamat.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:44 am

I hate to ask, since I'm going to get pounced on.

Has the time come for level restricted gear so you don't have level 1 rogues running around with khanjari's?

Chlora sez "What's her problem??" A smug rogue replies,"Khanjari envy."

NOT.

Just a suggestion. That would give us reasons to do the lower zones. Our alt gear would have to come from there!
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Postby Drache » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:16 am

Some of the stuff in the mud is what Adriorn pointed out on the other post about our ages. I personally don't feel like putting all the PTIME into a character, then considering the age we are and all. I mean, damn, rl time is weeks or months for fully leveling a character. PC games just own to hell and back in that aspect. The "Old School" way needs to go out the window. Limiting eq or putting restrictions I don't think will help. Getting rid of insane weapons like khanjari or at least balancing the other weapons and so forth. So many ideas just plopped in the mud from the past few years. Like ogres using 2h sword with a shield and what not. Something new needs to be done, regardless. Most definitely.
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Postby Naled » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:28 am

Bran,

I think atm even SC takes too long to do. From what I see zones that get done atm are zones like Brass, swamps, FP, Crypts, TF, short TTF etc. Zones that don't require a full group and take roughly 1 hour. And even those zones don't get done often because of lack of rewards. (With the exception of swamps and short TTF).

But SC is a nice zone in terms of length/rewards
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Postby Naled » Thu Jun 22, 2006 7:29 am

Bran,

I think atm even SC takes too long to do. From what I see zones that get done atm are zones like Brass, swamps, FP, Crypts, TF, short TTF etc. Zones that don't require a full group and take roughly 1 hour. And even those zones don't get done often because of lack of rewards. (With the exception of swamps and short TTF).

But SC is a nice zone in terms of length/rewards
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Jun 22, 2006 10:33 am

Brandobaris wrote:So my understanding then, from the comments I've read, is that we need more zones of similar configuration to that of Seelie Court. (Mob levels, quantity, groups, average number of rewards, etc.)

Are people doing SC regularly though? I thought a large group was needed to do the zone.


This thread is not about what zones we need, or do not need. it is about Jot invasion, an epic zone that fairly rarely loads.

This thread is also not about level requirements on items such as khanjari.
-

I also think it would be good to remove pop in zone, have some leaders shout. With the loadfactor of jot invasion I think it needs to be doable, and not super hard, But require a full group.

Why I sometimes have mentioned SC as an example because it is a zone that requires a full group, but with sitter is straightforward to do once you have secured entrance.
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Postby Sarell » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:02 am

So Jot invasion gear was added to and boosted to match spob gear. Then the zone was made much harder to justify the gear. I figure if it's not broke, don't fix it. Jot invasion was the best zone ever in every voting thread I ever saw. Make other zones more like it was not the other way around. Seems a shame to ruin the best zone in the game to justify the span of zones that abused the failed eq calc.

The combination of rare and hard does render it pretty much impossible for our playerbase. CRs arn't easy so it's risky business aswell. It would be good if we were hitting numbers like 200 each day.. even then, that's only because you would have enough of the old-core crazys (dedicated mudders) to be able to smite for 12 hours at an instants notice.

PS: The only way level restrictions would make people do baby zones was if you restricted high end gear to low levels and only let level 50s wear low end gear. Most people are level 50. Oh, and you do need to do a hell of a lot of small zones to get a khanjari, which still is garbage compared to what you can get from tia for far less commitment.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:18 am

Sarell wrote:PS: The only way level restrictions would make people do baby zones was if you restricted high end gear to low levels and only let level 50s wear low end gear. Most people are level 50. Oh, and you do need to do a hell of a lot of small zones to get a khanjari, which still is garbage compared to what you can get from tia for far less commitment.


Far easier to do those small zones at your own pace than commit a solid 12-17 hour block of time to one big one for a CHANCE at the mother of all stabbing blades

Okay.. I'm done hijacking the thread.. just thought this needed a response.
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You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:40 am

I really dont understand what level resctriction on eq does. If someone WANTS to take the time to talk to new players, he or she will explain why their eq is different anyway .. if they don't run across any new people, all he or she will see is older folks anyway who will KNOW thery are just decking out a new alt so it doesnt take 8 million years to level the latest alt ...

Easiest way to use level resctrictions on eq? Don't deck out alts :)

Sorry for the hijack, this was NOT a demolition experiment :)
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Postby Sarell » Thu Jun 22, 2006 11:59 am

Lilira wrote:
Sarell wrote:PS: The only way level restrictions would make people do baby zones was if you restricted high end gear to low levels and only let level 50s wear low end gear. Most people are level 50. Oh, and you do need to do a hell of a lot of small zones to get a khanjari, which still is garbage compared to what you can get from tia for far less commitment.


Far easier to do those small zones at your own pace than commit a solid 12-17 hour block of time to one big one for a CHANCE at the mother of all stabbing blades

Okay.. I'm done hijacking the thread.. just thought this needed a response.


You have to do the high end stuff with groups to get the quest done aswell tho. I wouldn't trade my khanjaris for any tia item. I was thinking of circlets and valhalla as being items that far outstripped khanjari btw.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jun 22, 2006 12:50 pm

So tired of trying to read through crap that doesn't partain to JOT INVASION, so forgive me if I missed something..
From what I've seen, biggest complaints are with the mob repoping, the supply wagon, and with not being able to plan for the zone.. correct?

On mob popping: It can be lessoned and/or stopped given the right things are done, without even having to step one foot into those rooms with massive amounts of giants. Once you figure it out, you can just sit back and let them take eachother out till there are only a few left.

Supply wagon: Its meant to be a tough fight. I had hoped the rewards would be worth people spending the time to do it. I don't care to mess with the fight too much as once its figured out how to do it, it might become too easy. I'll make some small changes to a few of the mobs to make them a slight bit easier tho.

Zone planning: Not a lot I can do about that really.
Perhaps after so many hours of uptime on a specific month or something it loads, or somehow making a quest load it or something... open to suggestions.
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:36 pm

Marthammor wrote:Zone planning: Not a lot I can do about that really.
Perhaps after so many hours of uptime on a specific month or something it loads, or somehow making a quest load it or something... open to suggestions.


Perhaps a giant on one side wants a hint that the other side is ready to be invaded? Maybe proof that someone important is dead leaving a perceived weakness? Then make it invade a set time after that? That would allow people to gather a group, deliberately provoke the invasion and add some planning factor in. :-)

I'm horrible and don't even know the zone storyline really, cus I've never been to Jot Invasion, and I've only been to jot a handful of times.

Just a suggestion from the woman who hasn't had her coffee yet. Or at least hasn't finished her first 32 oz cuppa.
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Postby Malia » Thu Jun 22, 2006 1:47 pm

ok so to sum up the problem:

1) zone takes entirely too long to do in a reasonable amount of time for a zone you cant plan for.
2) fights are a tad out of wack in some areas.

Resolution:
1) well when it pop hope that the mud stays up long enough that you can plan it on a weekend. If you do all the planing and mud crashes oh well yer out of luck.

2)Zone is just fine quit complaining and go figure it out

Result:
1) loss in pbase
2) a zone no one will do.

Please understand, this zone people used to RACE for, They actualy had rules on how many you had in zone before you could claim it.

This zone was the Grand daddy of zones that people will remember for years saying they did "JOT INVASION" and it was an absolute blast. Now all i hear is no thanks, takes to long, its no fun its boring, not worth doing, Jot is dead this boot, guess we wait till next boot.

I do agree some changes were needed, i think the Devices that stop you from teleporting around or gating in are great, muspel invasion needs this too btw. Leaders that shout, is a nice change it forces you to do grids and increases difficulty. Thats it! stop there! Those changes alone Add at least 2hrs to the zone at least.

Leave the wagon fight, but delete the other group that comes, and put whatever rewards from that fight into the crate.

PLEASE BRING THIS ZONE BACK TO ITS FORMER GLORY IN A 4-6HR TIME FRAME TO DO ALL MOBS AND EQUIPTMENT.
Last edited by Malia on Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:01 pm

Tasan wrote:Get off yer collective "It's being worked on" and start providing real details. It's not hard to summarize what exactly is being worked on, or to come up with a few details of the work without compromising it. Is it too much to ask that you keep your players in the light on what is coming down the line? No one wants to wait in the dark.


Okay, so I'm gonna hijack the thread too even after I got annoyed with it being done, heh.. hypocrite, I know.


So..
I know where you're coming from; at least I think I do.
You people love this game, the fact that you've stuck around shows this. You want to know what’s being done behind the scenes to better the thing you love. I can appreciate that.

The work that is being done right now, code wise, is something I can't comment on but I'm fairly sure that once it gets nearly completed all the details will be posted for you guys to give feedback on and help to further shape it into its final form before going into the game.

As for areas work being done, there is one brand new zone by a brand new writer in the final stages of being checked out. It will hopefully be in within the next week to two weeks.
I have a zone almost ready that will be done hopefully within the next month to month and a half, barring anymore computer problems, heh.
There is quite a bit of Homeland stuff being worked on, and a large chunk of stuff all coming in at the same time, much like the roads south of waterdeep did.. only I believe there are more towns/zones coming in with this bunch rather then just roads. There are phases to this, and I really don't have a timeline to give for it as there are multiple people working on it and, here it comes.. they all have things going on irl.
There are also at least two other zones by two separate writers in the works that I know of, but I can't really give a timeframe for those. From what I know, they are in the early to mid stages of writing.
And of course you have the (hopefully good) changes/fixes to the balance of old zones already in the game. I know some things haven't gone quite how they were supposed to, and those things are generally fixed in a timely manor.

Hopefully that gives you some kind of idea what’s going on behind the scenes, at least from an areas perspective. Sorry I can't give you more.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jun 22, 2006 2:45 pm

Malia wrote:Just going to paraphrase what is being done about jot.

i might dg a lil fight here not much i can do...

so basicly, you changed it, ruined the best zone in the game... and now with everyone thats done the zone recently tellin you how bad the zone is and how unreasonable it is your not going to do anything. Wonder why no one wants to play here anymore.... really wonder why some of us try so hard still. Im not gonna be one of the ones trying so hard anymore. Gonna go play on a mud where people actualy listen.

Pava --- OUT ---


When there was a thread about it from the last time it was done, most people from the group said they liked it and offered some suggestions about some changes it could use to make it more fun or about problems they had. I used those comments, and now everyone hates it even when those changes didn't make the zone harder (actually made it easier).
So far a lot of the complaints I've seen have been because of not understanding the zone, so I can't see changing something to make it easier then once its figured out it provides no challenge whatsoever and having people complain that it is too easy or that the fight was upgraded or the equipment downgraded.

The fact that I'm even reading the thread, and taking the time to respond shows that I'm listening to what’s being said. It just seems to me that most of the complaints come from not understanding how the zone works, so I'm trying to reply without giving anything away that I don't know hasn't already been figured out.


On a side note, I try not to get annoyed/agitated when posting, but it happens and I come across the wrong way sometimes. If anything sounds like a personal attack at any one of you, try not to take it that way. It’s really not what is intended. I'm not a PR rep and I don't have forty million people looking over what I post to make sure it isn't offensive to anyone in anyway.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:06 pm

I can agree somewhat with Marthammor. I also think that once zone is "learned" then it is going to be a lot faster. After all, a lot of the time it takes is from CR's etc.

It sounds like we should try it a few times. Mabye wait untill it actually loads in a weekend.

I just hope it isn't going to be a new Choking Palace.
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Postby Malia » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:15 pm

The problem is being missed entirely.

THIS IS A RARE POP ZONE!

It cant be planed, it cant be organized to do in advance. You cant say ok on the 24th lets smite jot invasion! If you wanna put in a zone that you gotta figure out then write one...

People used to race to get this zone and claim it, rules were put in place on what you needed so that you could claim it. This zone needs to be 4-6hr zone that can be done after people are off work and be finished and resed so they can get some sleep before work/school the next day.

Zones like BC, Magma, Tia.. Those are all zones we need to plan in advance for the time and strategy.

We spent 5hrs in there and didnt even get past Brimirs, I dont wanna see jot pop and hope mud stays up till weekend, or spend hours planing it to have the mud crash friday before the weekend.

I want to race to Jot, and form a group and just smite and have fun like old days. I left suggestions multiple times on what changes were good like devices and shouting.. those changes alone make you do the entire grids and all the mobs i loved it. But making this a lengthy drawn out zone that no one wants to do or that you gotta wait for a weekend and HOPE it stays up is just plain dumb. And honestly its that thinking that people still have time to pour into 10-12 hour zones just to figure them out is whats killing this mud.

People want to log in, smite at a good pace not in/out fighting, and get some decent reward for it, and then go to bed and get up for work the next day.

Regardless of it I have found jot invasion 3x and Aneku found it 1x in the last 2 months of the 4x it got attempted once... is that what you want for a zone? to do all the work to have it sit there and no one really wants to attempt it? Because thats what you got.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:22 pm

Bleh, you changed your post after I replied to it.

Anyway.. I do believe this can be a 4-6 hour zone to finish once people work though what makes things happen.

Overall the zone hasn't changed a whole lot from what it used to be, or at least I tried not to change it too much from what it used to be. I had to take into account the power of players now, and the power of the players back then when doing things.

Thrym and the mage camp were changed to hopefully provide better invasion caliber equipment then the normal jot stuff that was there before. So other then the calling mobs and the !teleport stuff, those were likely the biggest changes to the entire zone not counting the giants fighting each other across the center of the lower grid.

The amount of mobs on the grids really hasn't changed any, just now there are frost giants on one side trying to repel the invasion instead of the whole zone being almost entirely over-run by the fire giants. The rooms with the massive amounts of giants that repop can be nearly cleared out by events that happen on the fire giant side.. you don't have to step foot into those rooms to get them to stop either.

The group that comes to the wagon is meant to force you guys to change your tactics. You use the right tactics, you can somewhat safely do the wagon fight and get your group out of the way before that other group shows up. If you screw up, you have either a really hard fight on your hands, or you can choose not to do it and get the other rewards from the zone. You're only loosing one good item, and six second or maybe even third round bid items by not doing it. If I removed that second group, you could almost mindlessly bulldoze through that wagon group without having to change any of your tactics. I thought it would be a nice way to keep a group on its toes and pay attention to what its doing during a fight.


Now, I got to ask: How long did the first jot invasions take?
How long were both regular jot and invasion taking before rogue sneak/fold were used to bypass the grids?
How long were they after sneak/fold?

Every zone takes longer to finish when they first come in.. the fact that invasion is a random instance makes it seem like its taking forever to get completion times down, at least that’s how I see it. Perhaps I'm wrong?
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:38 pm

Ok, I know this is a rare pop zone, and that's part of the problem. Fully understand that. That is why I asked for suggestions on making it not rare, but based on something that is specific like a certain uptime, or a long quest that pits the fire and frost giants against eachother eventually leading to invasion (same could be done to muspel to load invasions there perhaps).

I'm liking a quest to do it that has you running from surtur in muspel into jot to weaken them, then taking proof back to surtur so he can start the invasion plans and get it underway. This of course adds to the 'overall' time to do the zone, but up to the last step can be done over several boots if needed, then the last step can be done at any time to load the invasion once you have the people and time to do it.

But really.. gimme ideas on something to make it not random but a planned thing, but not something easy.
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Postby Malia » Thu Jun 22, 2006 3:41 pm

I give up.... you win. Everytime the game boots and no one races to see if jot invasion loaded, remind yourself its for the best of the mud, and as the jot invasion gets found and no one wants to form or lead it, remind yourself its for the best of the mud. When your down to your last 5 players, remind yourself it was for the best of the mud.
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Postby Marthammor » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:23 pm

Umm.. why would someone need to race to see if invasion loaded if it becomes something you can pop at will when you have the time and people set to do it? You won't have to try to quickly form groups or find people to lead it because the group/leader would likely be the ones that loaded the invasion to start with.

Okay, I'm confused.. doesn't take much, heh...
Are you saying you want it to remain rare loading like it is now so you can race to see if it loaded (which of course puts you back in the possition of trying to find people for it), or you want it to be able to be planned for like the other zones (which takes away the aspect of racing to see if it loaded)?

Note: I'm offline till tomorrow morning, so don't take me not replying anymore as not caring. I'll pick back up tomorrow morning once I get back online.
Last edited by Marthammor on Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Thrand » Thu Jun 22, 2006 4:42 pm

Id personally like Jot invasion to be popable.

And thanks for your time and effort, I enjoy
this mud lots. :)

Lopi
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Postby Corth » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:20 pm

Boggle..

Its been quite a while since I played.. But I remember Jot Invasion being just about the best thing on the mud. I cannot imagine what necessitated it being changed at all....

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Vaprak » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:26 pm

As much as I hate to say it with all this negativity being pointed at the changes, I was (I believe) the person who originally suggested modifying the zone to make it viable again. My suggestion was this: a) make glammad shoud to summon any remaining beards so that you have to fight all of these mobs before attempting Glammad, making it much less likely that people would skip the entire grid areas. and b) put a 50/50 chance of a firbolg spy past the 2nd gatehouse that would shout once the 2nd gatehouse was broken so that any remaining fire giants on the grid would come running to the citadel and overrun the group.

This was to have the effect of making the zone a little more difficult again by requiring that the grids at least be free of beards if you wanted to do just the glammad fight, or that the grid was at least 95% clear if you wanted to do the citadel as well, basically restoring the zone to the difficulty that was similar to before rogue/fold broke it.

I didn't have the time to implement the changes that I suggested so others took care of it. My original idea was elaborated upon and some very good ideas came out of that. Sirthon shouting was something I hadn't thought of and allowed for a much covetted ring to be added to the zone. The !teleport objects that project an area were an amazing idea that I think would fix a ton of broken grid zones if they could be made to fit the zone theme properly.

I do totally understand that the zone is now too long for a rare zone, and believe me I was there for a 12 hour marathon one of the times it has been attempted and got 2 hours of sleep before work. It was brutal, but I did have a lot of fun. While I don't want to look at the files for the zone to see how everything works (I enjoy the zone too much as a player to compromise the position) I do believe Martha when he says that the zone time could be cut significantly by using different stratgies other than "throw the bodies at the mob" and I definately saw that to be true during the couple of times I have gone to invasion in the past year.

All this being said, I will pose my idea for resolving the problem to the public forum instead of just to Martha so that player voices can be heard: I think one possible idea would be to have something similar to how Musp Invasion works, with various levels or defcons) of the invasion able to load. However, instead of the varied levels being as random as whether the zone loads or not, why not have a very simple invasion be the rare load. Something with perhaps just Glammad on his hill and a few smoking beards around and Sirthon and his efreeti mercenaries setting up the !teleport devices. Have the smoking beards still come to combat if Glammad is attacked and likewise with Sirthon. This could be positioned so that in 2-4 hours you could get 3-4 nice pieces of equipment. OR you could bring news of the weakening troops to Surtur in Muspelheim by killing mob X in Jot during a rare invasion and then bringing this item to him causing the jot zone to pop. This would set off a full scale invasion in Y amount of time causing it to load up much like how it does now with numerous pieces of great equipment and with that an increased investment in time and death, pushing things to the 5-8 hour time range depending on the group and strategy used ultimately.

Please bear in mind that this is MY opinion of the situation and not the possition of the staff as a whole, but I do welcome your thoughts.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Jun 22, 2006 5:51 pm

In my opinion, the thing that made old jot invasion easy was the sneak/fold tactic. I'm glad to see that the killable !tele device idea finally got used though and that pretty much solves that problem. I don't think that every piece of eq needs to be a difficult fight. Finding the ring on the captain and fighting your way to it could be plenty hard, then say when you kill him it de-spawns the efreetis on the lower grid, or moves them or something.

I haven't done the new invasion recently so I'm not experienced with all of the changes that have been made since the first few attempts.

I think what Malia is trying to say is that with a rareload zone, and our diminshing playerbase, there shouldn't be a need for too many special tactics and strategies to get the zone down to a reasonable amount of time. It loads what, every few months? So in around a year we'll know it well enough to do it correctly?

The sheer number of mobs appears to make the zone long enough as it is, but (while cool) much of the new code gets in the way of the fun factor of this type of zone. "Oh shit its 8pm and invasion just loaded I bet we can still do it!" Fun times.
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Postby Latreg » Thu Jun 22, 2006 6:41 pm

Marthammor wrote:Ok, I know this is a rare pop zone, and that's part of the problem. Fully understand that. That is why I asked for suggestions on making it not rare, but based on something that is specific like a certain uptime, or a long quest that pits the fire and frost giants against eachother eventually leading to invasion (same could be done to muspel to load invasions there perhaps).

I'm liking a quest to do it that has you running from surtur in muspel into jot to weaken them, then taking proof back to surtur so he can start the invasion plans and get it underway. This of course adds to the 'overall' time to do the zone, but up to the last step can be done over several boots if needed, then the last step can be done at any time to load the invasion once you have the people and time to do it.

But really.. gimme ideas on something to make it not random but a planned thing, but not something easy.


I think the general idea of this is fine, (here comes the but) I don't know either zone really well, but this seems it would have to be done by a rogue and one who does know those zones really well. You said "but not something easy." Why? are you afraid people will then do it all the time? is that a bad thing given the current state of things? Can you force it to load? if so announce it! times/dates, then it can be planned for. the whole quest/rp thing sounds like a great idea, but adding more time onto an already long adventure may keep people from doing it. There are tons of ways to "Announce it" make some RP echos, waterdeep needs more spam anyway. Put in some rumor mobs, or have the auctioneers tell rumors, heck you could even use the old trade system. if you want some ideas pm me or find me in game.
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