An Appeal to the Staff - Roleplay and Restrings

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Ashiwi
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An Appeal to the Staff - Roleplay and Restrings

Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:49 pm

I thought I'd give this a go one more time, and make a formal appeal to the staff, the entire staff, on the whole "No Restrings" policy.

Roleplaying is a challenging aspect of Toril which has the potential of keeping a large quantity of the population returning over and over again, when they might have already exhausted other avenues in the game. One of the greatest things the staff can do for this game (besides the amazing changes which have already been brought up by Shevarash on the technical side), in my opinion, is foster roleplay opportunities within the pbase, itself. The Roleplay staff does an excellent job, but there is very little encouragement for the players, themselves, to take a leading role in this domain.

We are a community, and as such, we crave the opportunity to participate in community events. We crave player-to-player challenge. We crave the new and unique. We crave something which will bring us to stand out above and beyond the general and standard.

With all this in mind, I would formally like to request the staff to please reconsider their present stance on the idea of restrings and custom items. While I agree they should be something more rare and special, I feel that there could be a process in place which would allow the slow influx of unique items into the game.

For my suggestion, I put forward the last Tel'Arato Challenge as an example. We orchestrated a game-wide event which took well over a month of planning and effort. We submitted, in writing, our agendas and intent. We listed all rules and rewards offered (with the exception of a few items that were thrown into the pot at the last minute). When we broached the idea of a restring or two for the rewards, I very happily offered to write roleplay stories authenticating the history of any item considered, and would have willingly jumped through any hoops required, including dragging the entire guild (who were more than willing) off into any zone necessary to retrieve said items. The games involved numerous players from all aspects of the playerbase, and whomever wished to join were welcome. We wrote into the rules the requirements of getting to know the game world as a whole, as well as a need to master mechanics of the game they might never have otherwise gotten involved with. We even required players to learn more about the Forgotten Realms outside of Toril, in the form of the structured verse challenge (and the reason I requested that particular challenge was because I believed it would foster players to become inspired by the potential the game has to offer in the future with the history already available from its pre-designed past). It was our intent to challenge the players on every level feasible where this game was concerned. I very anally (ask Rachael and Heather, because I know I drove them nuts) insisted that each challenge stand on its own merit, stretching an aspect of the player different from the others, giving opportunities to every kind of player in the game to step forward and shine with their own set of skills and talents.

My proposal:

In the event of player-organized events, perhaps the rules where restrings are concerned could be reconsidered. I ask the staff to take into account the need for player-driven participation in our gaming world, as a whole, that goes beyond zoning.

A formal process of request could be put into place with set requirements allowing for a limited number of events on a yearly basis, that would allow for a "rewards/effort" system. The requirements could include formal, written requests, roleplayed documentation and history of each item requested, and a high level of game-wide participation (or even good/evil customization) in a pre-planned and documented format that urges players to become more involved in the game-world around them. Each request could be reviewed by staff (including Forgers, as I know theirs is the final word on this issue), and its merits debated before the final approval is given.

I know we have had issues before with favoritism, and that would surely crop up in the future, but we cannot continue to neglect the need for competition between players and the fact that this is a rewards/effort community for the most part. I ask the staff to consider recent posts from the players showing time and again the need for player-driven controversy and competition, and to consider the underlying need of competitive players to prove themselves against one another. I ask them to consider the potential that player-driven challenges have to offer the game in breaking up the monotony of the "same song, second verse" world of zoning, in offering something new and unique to gameplay that players can look forward to. I ask them to take into account the incredible touches the roleplay staff gave to the Tel'Arato challenge, which allowed us to have more fun than some of us have had in a long time, and to see how the originality of it refreshed us and gave us something new to revel in.

Thank you, in advance, for your time and consideration of this request.
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jul 02, 2006 3:56 pm

Now, from a player aspect of this issue...

Yes, I have a Tiamat crescent moon, and it is very dear to me, and my stance is "You can have my crescent moon when you can pry it out of my cold, dead hands."

However... if you touch my restrung opal moon badge, my ghost will come back and ravage you until there is no hope for resurrection, and will continue to stalk you in the afterlife.

Ask Ambar how she feels about her demonskin fannypack.
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Postby Corth » Sun Jul 02, 2006 5:58 pm

Give restrings to people leading zones. Leaders involve more people in the game on a regular basis than a one time rp event. People need an incentive to step up and be leaders. If they aren't getting artifacts, which they should, then at least something else that is special.

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Postby Anab » Sun Jul 02, 2006 9:41 pm

I can't speak for anyone else but my rping went downhill when I realized...no one really RPed. They would tag it and then just run around and if I tried to run with it they would be utterly confused and then think I'm retarded(Not far from the truth). I think maybe giving a bigger incentive such as restrings is a brilliant idea as it would make people want to RP and then give people who might be like me more people to goof around with and stuff. I would say hey maybe a nice little trinket or something that does alittle bit but most of the stuff I come across in game is near the same stats as something else so its all basically a restring anyways. :-| Figured I'd throw my 2 cents as an RPer. BTW I still run around with my little orc tribe and do stupid stuff with those I come across if anyone is up for that kinds of retarded fun you know my name.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Jul 03, 2006 5:03 am

It seems to me that restrings could be a fairly unobtrusive way of adding character development to both sides of the game, RP/zone. Since restrings do not affect EQ stats, I really don't see why they can't be somewhat ubiquitous. There is simply not enough character development in the game at this point and its basically "eq" where the trend is very LONG/RARE or billions of hours of RP.

specifically to RP.

I find it strange that in an environment where zoning is de-emphasized in favor of creativity and expression that restrings do not flourish. Imagine how much more engaging RP would be if you could actually dress in restrings that reflect your characters' story/personality. You could actually pull out the "treasure" that you found in an abandoned monastery of monsters and traps. restrings will help them bring their stories and their characters alive... why not encourage this? Think of the opportunities that people would have to engage other chars in RP by telling them about how they came upon the Axe of troll slaying, or the chest plate of the brotherhood, or the shield of the somefar away kingdom.

Right now RP is too elitist if you ask me. If your not a main char in the story your basically not involved. There are so many dominant RPrs trying to establish themselves inline for the rewards (that so far have materialized only very sporadically) that its very disenchanting if you ask me. It seems very much to me that making RP more common would truly establish the environment that most RPrs claim to seek (we may later find out they just want restrings but anyways) and the best way to do that IMO is to let you accomplish something tangible for small RP efforts. Who gets hurt by restrings?

specifically on the call for unique items through RP

unique items for RP im basically 100% against. EQ stats is what drives the ZONING portion of the game. Awarding truly unique items, like barkskin boots the armor mask gormal/gura crowns is truly inappropriate in a strict RP setting... because that it competes directly with the primary game, zoning; this is a hack/slash game not a RP/MUSH. Truly this is where you run into problems justifying how xyz rp points equate to abc zone risk vs reward vs eq calcr. RP shouldn't be handing out stat wise unique equipment, especially not eq that rivals or tops upper end zone eq.

on the zoning

each new zone obsoletes some other zones equipment... with rare exception. Where does all this eq go? It goes lots of places, storage so big it reaks, holes so big your pfile breaks, newbies ect.

This eq needs to go away, preferably on a voluntary basis. It needs to go away because its useless, devalues eq in general and lots of it ends up on newbies (eliminating their need/desire to get eq). unfortunately, there is no mechanism to accomodate this. I'd be totally in favor of being able to buy restrings for a certain amount of eq points as determined by the eq calcr to sink this older crappy eq out of the game.

This would help give old zones with obsoleted EQ value. This would help the objective eq calcr actually work by creating some "inherent" value where presently eq below a certain "value" (6 hour zone with 50 deaths) has no value. How many full sets of IC vault eq would it take to trade for 1 seelie band?

---

in conclusion.

Really is somethign fundamental about the mud going to break if restrings become common? Simple restrings are not going to mem spells or give you extra attacks or abilities of other classes which actually could "break" the game. Restrings are about showmanship aka competition. they are about interest in your character rather than interest in your "eq". I think we have been lacking character emphasis for some time.

Also, consider restrings as a resource for the immortals. Are we effectively using that resource? Its like having a 100k porsche in the garage that you won't drive because your worried someone might scratch it. Dust off those restrings and start creating some enjoyment with them.

What exactly are we holding restrings back for? So that they can be so valuable that no player can actually earn one? So gods don't have to hear about favortism (well then make them common enough its a moot issue)?
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Postby Latreg » Mon Jul 03, 2006 6:04 pm

kiryan wrote:each new zone obsoletes some other zones equipment... with rare exception. Where does all this eq go? It goes lots of places, storage so big it reaks, holes so big your pfile breaks, newbies ect.

This eq needs to go away, preferably on a voluntary basis. It needs to go away because its useless, devalues eq in general and lots of it ends up on newbies (eliminating their need/desire to get eq). unfortunately, there is no mechanism to accomodate this. I'd be totally in favor of being able to buy restrings for a certain amount of eq points as determined by the eq calcr to sink this older crappy eq out of the game.

This would help give old zones with obsoleted EQ value. This would help the objective eq calcr actually work by creating some "inherent" value where presently eq below a certain "value" (6 hour zone with 50 deaths) has no value. How many full sets of IC vault eq would it take to trade for 1 seelie band?



great ideas, if this was used I think you would see groups forming quickly and racing to zones again right after a boot/crash. There could also be a one time "Immortal buy out" where you'd be paid plats for "extra" items and then it could be taken out of the game. Price could be set by what things have generally sold for at auction or some other way. I'd like to see the auctions turned off every so often in favor of live guild auctions, people who are new are missing out on those, I know I had lots of fun at those before the auction system was put in. but that should probably be a discussion for a different thread.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Jul 04, 2006 12:38 am

the thread is really about restrings, i know i sidetracked slightly, but lets not really get off topic.
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100% Agree

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Jul 10, 2006 4:37 am

100% agree with Ashiwi. I also agree with Kiryan's philosophy: Zoning = eq with stats, rping = restringing that eq. Restrings can also help my character 'look' more like he should, and not be wearing demon items on him. If I were wearing purely 'rp' eq, I'd prolly die to the first RP fight we did. To me both things are what truly make the mudding experience complete. Just like it can take someone several trips to a zone to win a piece of eq, the same for restrings. They are something you earn for rping well often, not just once.

But, like Ashiwi, I really cannot comprehend in the least why the Gods are so against restrings. They have no stats, and only help the look and feel of all the characters and roleplay in general. I also like the current policy about not being able to transfer a restrung item between characters. Helps the mud out in more ways than one.

But the 'points' needed or the things one must do to earn a restring seriously must be looked at to help roleplay GROW on the mud. The current value of a restring is completely absurd. It isn't about giving people a restring after RPing once and just sitting there sighing without talking and saying 'my character doesn't talk much'. It's about earning the restring, just like one must many times do a zone a bunch of times before winning an item.

I know many will say 'that's not fair, I hate RP so I can never get a restring!'. Well, tough crap. Those that 'don't like zoning' much don't get the eq that those that zone get. It's very simple. I don't deserve to get tiamat eq if I dont sit there for 18hrs and do tiamat. Just like if you don't RP you shouldn't get a restring. These aren't artifacts guys, they're 'renamed' eq.

We shouldn't zone only to get eq, we should zone because we enjoy hanging out, killing crap and owning the zone we do. We shouldn't RP just to get a reward. I think everyone on the mud who RPs alot does it for the sheer enjoyment of it actually. Reward that, and you will see RP grow more.

I've been meaning to post what you posted for awhile Ashiwi, and I'm glad to see that another RPer feels the same.


P.S. I'm tired, please excuse the stream of consciousness appearance.
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bump!

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:14 am

BUMP!


So can we expect RP rewards (restrings) in 2.0 to promote RPing further?
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Postby Corth » Thu Mar 15, 2007 3:17 am

Flip 2.0
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Postby moritheil » Fri Mar 16, 2007 5:23 pm

Anab wrote:I can't speak for anyone else but my rping went downhill when I realized...no one really RPed. They would tag it and then just run around and if I tried to run with it they would be utterly confused and then think I'm retarded(Not far from the truth).


I think the issue is also tied to the fact that RP flag used to come with much harsher messages and (I'm led to believe) much more enforcement. I personally only turn RP on when I'm in an RP event, and I do it to let people know, but people often forget and leave it on, or are quasiRPing and leave it on. There isn't the strict divide that one finds on other muds (i.e. says, emotes are RP; tells are all OOC, etc.) and I don't think any of the newbie help documents describe the concept.

RP by its nature involves many intangibles, and it is this factor that has presented difficulties with reward in the past. Anyone can tell the difference between a successful zone run and an unsuccessful zone run, but what is the difference between successful RP and unsuccessful RP?

Don't mistake my listing of the historical concerns with RP reward as a lack of support, though - I fully believe that RP merits rewards.
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Postby Glorishan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:41 pm

Corth wrote:Give restrings to people leading zones. Leaders involve more people in the game on a regular basis than a one time rp event. People need an incentive to step up and be leaders. If they aren't getting artifacts, which they should, then at least something else that is special.

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Totally agree with this. Restrings to leaders, not to RP'ers. Reward those who lead regularly are the ones largely responsible for the majority of the players' enjoyments.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Mar 16, 2007 6:56 pm

RPer's don't get restrings anyway. Every style of player should get an opportunity to get a restring. Maybe you could bind that item to that character, or whatever, but there's no reason why people shouldn't get an opportunity to earn restrings.
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Postby Corth » Fri Mar 16, 2007 7:30 pm

Glorishan wrote:
Corth wrote:Give restrings to people leading zones. Leaders involve more people in the game on a regular basis than a one time rp event. People need an incentive to step up and be leaders. If they aren't getting artifacts, which they should, then at least something else that is special.

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Totally agree with this. Restrings to leaders, not to RP'ers. Reward those who lead regularly are the ones largely responsible for the majority of the players' enjoyments.


Ohhh I need to start laying odds on my messages being deleted again.

Here goes..

Shev is a doodyhead.

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Postby Gurns » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:04 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote: We shouldn't RP just to get a reward. I think everyone on the mud who RPs alot does it for the sheer enjoyment of it actually. Reward that, and you will see RP grow more.

Huh? “People shouldn’t RP just to get a reward.â€
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Postby Glorishan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:08 pm

Gurns wrote:
Glorishan wrote:
Corth wrote:Give restrings to people leading zones.

Totally agree with this.

Totally disagree with this.


Still totally agree with Corth!
Last edited by Glorishan on Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gurns » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:16 pm

Glorishan wrote:Still totally agree with Corth!

Of course you do, but you have to.
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Postby Corth » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:23 pm

How about we cut the bullshit and just argue for the sake of arguing. :)
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Postby Corth » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:27 pm

[quote="Gurns"]
Given all that incentive, if no one wants to lead, then you should be asking why, not “How can we bribe people to do itâ€
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Glorishan » Fri Mar 16, 2007 8:31 pm

[quote="Corth"][quote="Gurns"]
Given all that incentive, if no one wants to lead, then you should be asking why, not “How can we bribe people to do itâ€
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'

Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'

Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
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Thread

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Mar 16, 2007 9:43 pm

This was a thread originally about roleplay and restrings. Not about leading zones. While I agree with rewarding leaders, that has nothing to do with this thread.

Gurns, I meant that people shouldn't be RPing just to get a physical reward. But, I think they should give rewards for RPing. I don't zone just to get a shiny item. I zone because it's fun, it WAS an opportunity to interact socially, etc. As a side bonus, we have a chance of getting an item. I don't care what the zone is, I'm always up for a good fun run.

But, there has been this mystique surrounding restrings and I really have no idea why. It's not an artifact. It has no special stats, other than the ones it originally had. But, just like we get items for zoning, perhaps we should get restrings for RPing (and possibly leading). You want to bind them to the character? Cool with me. It's a perfect opportunity to let your character look more like what you want him to look like, for the best RP atmosphere.
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Postby Corth » Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:55 pm

Yeah never quite understood why the gods are so anal about the restrings. They should be giving them out to anyone who requests one and can justify it on a RP basis. It improves the game. Duh!

Leaders, on the other hand, should not only be getting restrings, they should be getting artifacts.

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Postby Gurns » Fri Mar 16, 2007 11:27 pm

Corth wrote:Try going to the dentist and asking him why he doesn't want to work on your teeth for free. I mean, I respect dentists.. but apparently my respect doesn't pay their mortgage. Likewise, in our game (like any other game), rewarding certain actions will encourage those actions.

What an odd analogy from you for this situation.

First, if the leader is the dentist, then the people with bad teeth are the players who want to zone. If leaders want players to pay them, that’s certainly already possible in game.

Second, if leaders = dentists and players = people who use their services, then imms = government. Would you argue the government should pay dentists so anyone can use their services? Of course you wouldn’t, that’s not your politics. So why make that argument here?

Indeed, I would think from a libertarian/capitalistic perspective, the situation is nearly ideal. There are rewards for zoning. There are more rewards for leading, even if you don’t count respect. Anyone can potentially learn to lead, there are no artificial barriers to prevent it. Anyone can form up a group as a leader, whether he knows how to lead or not, there’s no licensing agency to prevent that. Any player can choose to follow any leader, or not. Any leader can attempt to charge for his services, and the players will decide to meet his price or not. And if the players want to zone but there is no leader available or they don’t want to pay a leader, well, they can learn to lead.

Now, along with that analogy, you propose rewarding leading. There are already rewards for leading, so what you are really proposing is raising the rewards for leading. Since those rewards have been sufficient to motivate leading for many years, why do they need raising now?

I think everyone recognizes that the glut of gear is a key problem here. Leaders no longer need to go to zones, because they have all the gear. They no longer have to zone to help out their friends because their friends have all the gear. They don’t even have to zone to help out people they barely know, because those people have all the gear, too. While there are other reasons to lead, over-abundant gear means less reason to lead.

You propose to fix this problem by giving artifacts to leaders. Even more gear for the mud! To make an economic analogy, you suggest trying to fix inflation by printing more money. As I’m sure you’re aware, that doesn’t fix the problem, it makes it worse.

No, to fix inflation, you need to tighten the money supply. If you want to use equipment as a goad or reward to get people leading and zoning again, players need to have less gear, and mechanisms need to be in place to limit the total supply.

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:…restrings…While I agree with rewarding leaders, that has nothing to do with this thread.

Well, it does now since it has been suggested that leaders should get restrings. :)

But to bring this back to more on-topic... Most of the mud rewards are already for zoning, with more rewards for leading. So I wouldn’t want to see still more rewards for leading. I’d like to see restrings as rewards for something else.

So, a reward for what? No idea. Running a big event like Ashiwi talked about? RP? Being a good helper? Being the first to complete a difficult quest, for a new spell or item on the mud? Have a quest for a restring (as long as it changed every time so everyone would actually have to do it themselves)? Maybe all of the above. There are lots of possibilities. But the idea would be to reward something besides RP and something other than zoning.
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat Mar 17, 2007 12:29 am

For me the game has two different elements: zoning and RPing. They can both be equally time consuming and entertaining. Some people obviously don't see it that way, and believe RP to be something silly, at best. That's fine, your loss.

However, do not think this game is just one sided. One can do many things in this game without zoning, as have many people throughout the years. I think the best mix is to do both avidly, but that's just me. And likewise, I see the potential 'reward' for RPing as being restrings, while Corth may be right, to some degree, and have 'artifacts' be the rewards for leaders. One reward is a tangible item, the other something to accentuate your character more. Since many people do not RP, they really should have no reason to have a restring since they only care about zoning. I'm slightly exagerating, but sometimes it is needed to get the point across, hopefully.

Obviously RP is an important part of the game since a whole sphere and time/effort have been put into it.
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Postby Corth » Sat Mar 17, 2007 2:35 am

Gurns,

A game is not society. In this case, instead of Milton Bradley or Parker Brothers, the manufacturer of our game is Shevarash, Shar and Cyric. They decide the rules of the game, we just play it. What we are proposing is not a government handout. Its a rule change. I think we can all agree that the game and its players are benefitted by having leaders. While respect and the ability to claim an item are definately a form of compensation for being a leader, apparently, there are still not enough of them. So yes, I am suggesting that we increase the reward as an incentive for more people to lead in order to benefit the game and its players.

On the other hand, your point about the glut of gear is completely on point. People are not interested in playing because they have everything, and their 10th alt has everything. According to Austrian economic theory, the way our economy is currently set up, if liquidty dries up, the credit bubble will burst and we will have deflation. In our game, if we don't create newer and better gear, people pack up and leave, which is a form of game deflation. So we continue to inflate equipment and money supply, since the alternative isn't acceptable.

Of course, I will concede that in both our game, and our economy, we see diminishing returns in growth over time resulting from inflation / increased liquidity.

So Gurns, how would you address the underlying problem of an eq glut without a pwipe or an equipment wipe? Give me a practical example of how this can be done.

Shev, you listening?

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Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 17, 2007 10:48 am

Gurns wrote:Leaders get plenty of rewards anyway. If you’re a leader, then when you’re on, there’s always someone around to lead a zone. If you’re a leader, you get a big say in which zone you’re doing. If you’re a leader, you can decide who’s in the group. If you’re a leader, it is generally accepted that you can claim any single item from that zone (if you do so up front).


Which game are you talking about exactly? :|

Anyhow, I agree restrings should be more prolific in all areas, with an iron hand, like Mystra was, judging if they fit the MUD's theme.
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Postby Gurns » Sat Mar 17, 2007 7:42 pm

Sarell wrote:Anyhow, I agree restrings should be more prolific in all areas, with an iron hand…judging if they fit the MUD's theme.

I’d agree with that.

And now that this post isn’t totally off-topic… :P
Sarell wrote:
Gurns wrote:If you’re a leader, then when you’re on, there’s always someone around to lead a zone. If you’re a leader, you get a big say in which zone you’re doing. If you’re a leader, you can decide who’s in the group. If you’re a leader, it is generally accepted that you can claim any single item from that zone (if you do so up front).

Which game are you talking about exactly? :|

Um, the game as it was from the early 90s until I stopped playing high end two years ago. From the posts on the board, I can see that these days a leader’s discretion to keep certain people out of his or her group is reduced. But as to the other points…if that’s not the way it still is, why not? Are you telling me that people don’t respect leaders anymore?

Corth wrote:I think we can all agree that the game and its players are benefitted by having leaders.

I certainly agree.
Corth wrote:While respect and the ability to claim an item are definately a form of compensation for being a leader, apparently, there are still not enough of them.

There is less zoning going on. You advance the notion that it’s because there aren’t enough willing leaders.

I don’t agree. I think it’s mostly due to a couple of things. One is the size of the pbase. If 30% of 100 folks are zoning, that’s two groups. 30% of 30 people is sometimes one group, but mostly no groups. Another reason is that players aren’t hungry for zoning anymore. Too much gear, plus they’ve done it all too many times. A leader finds 10 players ready to zone, you can do SPOB, right? But who wants to? No zoning gets done, but that’s not the leader’s fault.

But from me, this is speculation. I’d like to hear what former leaders have to say on this point. Or from people who were trying to become leaders, but aren’t leading now.

But my speculation means I don’t think rewarding leaders would have much effect. And to keep the right balance, long term, I wouldn’t want to see leaders rewarded more than they are now. And for various reasons, I don’t want to see artifacts on the mud.
Corth wrote:So Gurns, how would you address the underlying problem of an eq glut without a pwipe or an equipment wipe? Give me a practical example of how this can be done.

I’d advocate lots of things. Rent. Gear damage that is repairable. Breakage that is not repairable. Less protection from dragon breath.

I’d advocate cutting the amount of money available on mobs by a third, and doing the same for quests, etc. that give players money. For some mobs and quests, cut the money by half.

If all that went in, with somewhat high rent costs and a somewhat high probability of breakage/damage, then after a year, maybe two, there would be “the right amountâ€
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Postby Corth » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:02 pm

Some good ideas there Gurns. Personally, I would just pwipe, and if thats not acceptable, just remove a drastic amount of eq from the game altogether. But your suggestions work also. Still don't see, however, how it would hurt to reward leaders with restrings.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Maedor » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:37 pm

Role playing shouldn't be the only way to earn restrings. This game has many different types of players, and I don't see why one type of player should have an advantage over others when it comes to restrings.

RP restrings for the RP crew
Quests for restrings for questors
Restring points at the end of zones, or a restring token @ the end of tia for zoners

It wouldn't take much effort to work out a system to implement some restrings. You could use restring zones/quests as a way to encourage people do to long forgotten zones

Right now, the only way to get a restring is if your name is Glahir and you put together some graphics for the bbs. *yawn*

On a side note..bring back FNAT and the subsequent restrings!!
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Postby Glorishan » Sat Mar 17, 2007 9:01 pm

Gurns wrote:And to keep the right balance, long term, I wouldn’t want to see leaders rewarded more than they are now.


A pretty good post, but I still find flawed logic here. Corth was (at one point) one of the most prolific leaders on the MUD. Sarell more recently. Leading (often times) isn't fun. You deal with whiney group members, afk, forming difficulties, etc... Often times good leaders continue to lead because they're expected to, and because they know they can do it better than the next guy.

However, I don't see how they get rewarded at all at this point. Leaders claim items 'sometimes,' but not typically from what I can tell (granted my zone involvement is extremely limited for quite awhile now, but unless there has been a drastic change, this is true). So their rewards? Ask someone who has lead Tiamat before. They get to deal with multiple weeks of preparing (forming), then they have to show up early to start getting people in group... then they have to figure out who committed and can't come. Then they have to replace those spots if possible. Then maybe 1-2 people leave because the start-time has been delayed 2 hours. - Alright, now we've gotten into Avernus. 2 people have been afk the whole time. We get into the upper grid. More AFK, and tells start going to the leader from people stating that those afk people sure as hell better be getting punished for not being at the keys. More fighting, more afk'ing, and some people just not listening. Eventually the zone is done. Wouldn't you know it, one of those afk people wins an item. Now that leader gets even more reward. For the time and effort, every person who knows that winner was afk for half the zone is bitching and moaning at the leader for even bringing him/her, and allowing him/her a bid.

Granted, Tiamat is the most extreme of the extreme examples, but you have similar problems to deal with (if at a lesser scale) in many other zoning experiences.

If not artifacts, then restrings for leaders (artifacts having been how leaders were once rewarded... at least the top tier ones).
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Postby moritheil » Sun Mar 18, 2007 11:32 pm

We have become quite insular.

Maedor wrote:Role playing shouldn't be the only way to earn restrings.


I don't think people are asking for it to be the only way, just a way.

On a side note..bring back FNAT and the subsequent restrings!!


Ah, that brings back memories. I never got a restring, but I still have 18 fox tokens. If I had my choice, I'd go further and say bring back invasions, old-school style, with Cyric picking a city and summarily loading thousands of mobs.

Adriorn wrote:For me the game has two different elements: zoning and RPing. They can both be equally time consuming and entertaining. Some people obviously don't see it that way, and believe RP to be something silly, at best. That's fine, your loss . . .

Obviously RP is an important part of the game since a whole sphere and time/effort have been put into it.


Well put.

[quote="Gurns"]But the logical conclusion is “Don’t reward RP at all.â€
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Postby Corth » Mon Mar 19, 2007 2:03 am

I don't play so I wouldn't know, but if what Mori is saying is true, then there are too many leaders...
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ambar » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:18 am

Well there are several people who lead zones, but I wouldnt call them a *leader* per say

We do have some who i consider *leader* and I'd follow them anywhere .. the Ross', the Lilithelle's, The Sarell's, a select few others .. Corth has been inactive longer than I have been a goodie, but by reputation I'd probably follow him if he played ..
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Postby Gormal » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:01 pm

I'd follow Corth if I could play my alt with disposable exp. There's no telling when he'll spank the group intentionally just to stop playing.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:07 pm

Gormal wrote:I'd follow Corth if I could play my alt with disposable exp. There's no telling when he'll spank the group intentionally just to stop playing.


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Postby Corth » Mon Mar 19, 2007 6:04 pm

Rofl, yeah last time I decided to come out of retirement for a day and lead a zone, it was not pretty. You can't go years without playing and then just come back and lead a zone. Hell, I couldn't even remember what circles my own spells were in, more less make use of updated classes and skills of the players in my group. Also, its impossible to know what your group members are capable of when you don't recognize any of them because they are using their 12th alt. Heh, and there are probably dozens of new strategies that have come into use since the last time I played, and I am familiar with none of them.

It was kind of humbling because I always considered myself a good player and leader, but really not surprising. If I ever ask any of you to follow me anywhere, run! :)
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Mar 19, 2007 9:17 pm

Corth wrote:Rofl, yeah last time I decided to come out of retirement for a day and lead a zone, it was not pretty. You can't go years without playing and then just come back and lead a zone. Hell, I couldn't even remember what circles my own spells were in, more less make use of updated classes and skills of the players in my group. Also, its impossible to know what your group members are capable of when you don't recognize any of them because they are using their 12th alt. Heh, and there are probably dozens of new strategies that have come into use since the last time I played, and I am familiar with none of them.

It was kind of humbling because I always considered myself a good player and leader, but really not surprising. If I ever ask any of you to follow me anywhere, run! :)


No, it wasn't pretty but it was god damn fun. That's what counted. :P
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Postby Gurns » Tue Mar 20, 2007 4:52 pm

Glorishan wrote:…people have been afk the whole time...some people just not listening….bitching and moaning at the leader

No, surely not! People wouldn’t afk for extended periods in a zone, that would be letting down their group, their friends. And people surely listen to their leaders, anything else is rude, at the very least. And who would be so ungrateful as to bitch and moan at someone who has led a zone? So stupid as to bite the hand that leads them? Because, after all, if you give that much crap to someone who is doing you a favor, they’re might not want to do it again!
/sarcasm

Glorishan wrote:I still find flawed logic here

Sorry, but the flaw is in thinking this is the imms’ problem. The game code, items, areas, balance, that stuff is the imms’. The social interactions? That’s the players. If players have alienated leaders so they don’t want to lead… *shrug* We’re not babies, the imms aren’t our parents, so why do you think they should pay someone to play with us and take care of us?

Corth wrote:if what Mori is saying is true, then there are too many leaders...

Too many leaders or too much zoning, yeah, quite possibly. While it is generally good for the mud for there to be zoning, if people are bored with it, doing it only because it’s marginally less boring than doing nothing, then I doubt that’s good for the mud.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:46 am

The fact is leading has become a mundane event due to "features" of the game. You no longer wander most zones, instead you skip the irrelevant parts and shorten the zone. Leading nowadays unfortunately comes down to babysitting. The days of hard CR's that kept you up until 5am before work are long gone. The days of zones like BC only being taken on by the most respected leaders, also long gone. Even Avernus has become a joke to a full group.

Leading has lost the mystique that used to surround it. Rewarding leaders then might have made sense... rewarding them now? You'd just be giving a boat to people that already walk on water. Not to take anything away from Ellen, Pat or Ross.

I don't really see why restrings need to be some sort of special case. It's freaking ansified ascii code. Everyone should be entitled to at least 1 restring for sticking out this year of stagnation.
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Postby Corth » Wed Mar 21, 2007 5:18 am

year... as in singular?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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