and on the 5th day, god created CM...... (but why?)

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
loshaenar
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and on the 5th day, god created CM...... (but why?)

Postby loshaenar » Wed Jul 05, 2006 5:07 am

dear relevant gods..

i begin this post by saying that i actually like the concept behind CM... it rocks.. it's interesting.. there's plot, ansi doesn't kill my eyes after 20 mins etc. so thankyou...


i have a small question tho. Why was it deemed neccessary to kill thousands upon thousands of animals / other mobs to do the quest work here? the random spawning 'pieces' required for the different quests seem to be a little ridiculous in terms of quantity... going up to 100 of a particular one.. it's not about how easy the mob is... it's about how much of a ridiculous time sink this seems to be.

going there to xp is great and all... but attempting to do the quest work there is an exercise is mindless monotony. What's the purpose behind this? can we please either up the load rates or tune down the numbers required? seriously...i can blow up animals till the cows come home (so to speak) but let's get a bit real here.


bong / tai et al.
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jul 05, 2006 9:49 am

Farming doesn't bother me, in fact I think its a perfectly viable way to make people work to do soloable quests. What bothers me about CM is that months of farming results in an extremely difficult fight that requires many people to die that have nothing to do with the quest and will see no part of the rewards. I like the exp I get in CM, but aside from that I despise the zone... sorry.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Jul 05, 2006 12:37 pm

I tend to agree, you have to spend a silly amount of time, only to quest a pouch. If these items where designed for newbies, then yeah change something. You just have people doing hitall and areas. Consider a little tweak to some of these quests.
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Postby Malia » Wed Jul 05, 2006 1:33 pm

Another downfall of this zone that i see and felt as a leader is that people that work on these solo quests and hours of endless smitting of animals most if not all tog anon. Makes it harder to form groups to actualy zone. This mud is designed more for grouping and zoning then solo work, and if so many are out soloing you will see a deciline in the pbase from all those that log in, see if anything is going on, and then log off because nothing is.

I loved it for exp, and its close to evil pbase so it gave them a really good place to exp and group a bit. Besides that im with gormal, i despise the zone and think its hurt the pbase overall.
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Postby Lilira » Wed Jul 05, 2006 7:46 pm

Its a nice zone for evils XP and umm.. necro exp. Why.. cus I've noticed a trend where noone likes to group with necros cus they are one of the "ultimate solo classes". Guess what.. I like to talk to people. Most of the time my LFGC holler is "Looking for a group that breathes."

I have yet to work on the quests down there cus the farming is boring. And OMG.. all the bazillions of hps the mobs HAVE.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Jul 06, 2006 12:23 am

Having to kill tons of lowlevel mobs is still lowbie friendly. It is the end fights that are unfriendly.

Camping mobs is like xping, its zen.
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Postby Brandobaris » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:09 am

loshaenar wrote:can we please either up the load rates or tune down the numbers required?

I'm willing to look into any specific quests, just mmail me details on any you feel are broken, unbalanced, whatever. The one you cited as being the worst problem was already revamped months ago btw. The current load rates for it should be quite reasonable. Gathering up items for quests was not meant as a punishment for newbies, but rather, something they could do on their own to earn equipment, vs having high end players just hand them gear.

Gormal wrote:What bothers me about CM is that months of farming results in an extremely difficult fight that requires many people to die that have nothing to do with the quest and will see no part of the rewards.

Well, what difficulty level would you suggest for the fights of an epic quest? If there is seriously a problem with people dying to the fights, I'm willing to look into it. I play the game as much as anyone else, and understand the pbase issue; when the area was being designed, the pbase was shrinking, but was larger than it is now. As such, I'm willing to tone things down that are too hard, but keep in mind that generally means the rewards have to be edited; there are rules and guidelines I am required to follow.

There are also a couple zonelets in the area, but I can't force leaders to dice rewards. My control of the area is limited to NPCs.

Malia wrote:Another downfall of this zone that i see and felt as a leader is that people that work on these solo quests and hours of endless smitting of animals most if not all tog anon.

If people tog anon or not, it is not something I have control over. That there are quests that can be worked on solo is at the request of players. Over the last couple years, players have specifically asked for tasks that can be done solo, or with a small group.


So the main point I'd like to make is that if anyone has any specific issues with either of my areas, I invite you to mmail me about it. My track record of responding to concerns should be pretty good.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Jul 06, 2006 3:47 am

People are figuring out how to twink most of the fights, but it seems like everything is soloable until you pop the big fights that take quested stuff to get to. Make them in a portal or something that only a couple people can enter or something else to keep it small if thats how its gonna be. Too many people are doing the work for CM hounds.
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Postby Latreg » Thu Jul 06, 2006 4:11 pm

Gormal wrote:People are figuring out how to twink most of the fights, but it seems like everything is soloable until you pop the big fights that take quested stuff to get to. Make them in a portal or something that only a couple people can enter or something else to keep it small if thats how its gonna be. Too many people are doing the work for CM hounds.


I understand what you are saying, but how is it different than people ask for help to kill a dragon so they can quest whatever. I have not been in on any of the epic stuff in cm btw, so your perspective is better than mine, I'm just wonder how it compares.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:11 am

So we did what we thought was the final CM fight tonight... here is what happend to my trophy as I lost nearly 400% of level 50 exp (ended level 49.5)

Kill statistics for Koray
Exp % Name
2.5 the Cyrite mage
2.6 a snow troll
2.6 an ice troll
2.0 the vicious reaver
2.0 the vicious reaver
3.6 the elite guard
4.5 the Zhentarim Knight
3.4 the navigator
4.8 the first officer
5.5 Captain Miplit
4.5 the Chultean slaver
2.5 the Battle-Mage
2.0 a frost giant berserker
2.0 a frost giant citadel guard
2.2 a frost giant soldier
2.4 a frost giant warrior

Which became...

Kill statistics for Koray
Exp % Name
2.3 an elite fortress guard
3.7 the Cyrite mage
2.1 the weapons master
3.8 a snow troll
3.9 an ice troll
3.0 the vicious reaver
3.0 the vicious reaver
2.9 the vicious reaver
5.4 the elite guard
6.6 the Zhentarim Knight
5.0 the navigator
7.2 the first officer
8.2 Captain Miplit
6.7 the Chultean slaver
2.7 the naval captain
3.7 the Battle-Mage
2.8 the vicious reaver
3.0 a frost giant berserker
3.0 a frost giant citadel guard
2.3 a frost giant citadel guard
2.6 the golden warrior
3.3 a frost giant soldier
2.2 a huge frost giant guard
3.5 a frost giant warrior
2.0 a frost giant warrior
Last edited by Gormal on Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:16 am

In case I'm not clear... don't ever ask me to do a CM quest fight. Ever.
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Postby Brandobaris » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:24 am

I'd like to apologize to those in the group. The difficulty was a lot harder than what I was going for.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:55 am

Latreg wrote:I understand what you are saying, but how is it different than people ask for help to kill a dragon so they can quest whatever. I have not been in on any of the epic stuff in cm btw, so your perspective is better than mine, I'm just wonder how it compares.



A dragon is a rare that anyone can check and typically we bid dragon items between a group because its just a matter of checking it. How can you spend months farming shit and doing smaller fights then bid out items that are just another quest item? The point is that farming and checking a rare don't compare at all. They are especially different when fighting for a step in a quest rather than a reward. IMO the CM quest is poorly conceived and the amount of time it takes to do the big quest is just too much and done wrong.
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:32 pm

I've completed nearly every quest in CM first.

I've killed nearly every mob in CM, I did all the big fights first.

I've spent as much time as anyone farming quest pieces, actually learning the quests...pioneering this zone. I'd for one be dissappointed if the quests were watered down or made easier. The ONLY quest that I had serious issue with (cough lizard skins anyone?) has been modified as I understand it. The rest of the quests are very doable, and the rewards seem relatively fair for the time invested, with a small handful of exceptions.

I would think a couple end quest fights are a bit over the top...but again, I did them (several with much help), and I'd be pretty bummed to have the rewards from 9months of questing watered down to make things more enjoyable for the next person.

I really enjoyed this zone; learning the quests from scratch with no notes or walkthroughs added much enjoyment, and frusteration, to my toril experience. That being said, it is quite disheartening to see people

A) never do anything in CM

or

B) spend 2hours down there and expect to be able to do quests that took Klandan and me since November to (nearly) complete

...and then they bitch about how horrible CM is, how it ruined the mud, how noone zones b/c of CM. Damn people, if you don't like it, go make your own zone, but Brandobaris spent a TON of time thinking out this zone and the quests, and you're SO inconsiderate of his time invested with your short sighted and unfounded slams against his zone. This has to be one of, if not the most thought out zone and quests in the game...try them out and give them a real shot before flaming.

CM offers questors quests...it offers some KILLER smallgroup smites, it offers some of the best xp on the mud for all levels..it really has a little of everything in it. Not everyone will appreciate all aspects of any zone, but this one sure seems to cater, at least in part, to a whole lot of people.

Brando, thanks a lot for CM. I think I speak for quite a few people when i say Toril is better because of your efforts, and I really appreciate all your hard work that went into it :)
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Postby Maedor » Fri Jul 07, 2006 5:39 pm

on a side note, only the basement, blood dome and the end fight required more than 3 people to do, so everything is quite doable by a group of 1-5people.
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Postby Malia » Fri Jul 07, 2006 6:04 pm

still dont think it fits in with the concept that is toril and was toril. It might be coincidince or whatever but soon as people started really farming CM mobs zones being done went down and forming for zones became a real headache. Sure glad yer done with it, maybe it can just turn back into a good exp zone and stuff. But i dont think farming endless mobs should make a quest tough, smitting 100 yuans to get 9 tail rings is just a timesink.

quest like Dscale robes are worthy of rewards because it takes smitting dragons from across all the realms to do it. would we like this changed to because i smited 100000 ferns and collected 10 fronds, i should be rewarded? Bah.

I dont want brando to feel like im flaming his zone I just think it hurt the mud more then helped it. Its a great zone and close to vt for exp but the endless smitting and poping stuff just doesnt fit in with what Toril once was.
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Postby Ruxur » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:05 pm

Gormal wrote:
Latreg wrote:I understand what you are saying, but how is it different than people ask for help to kill a dragon so they can quest whatever. I have not been in on any of the epic stuff in cm btw, so your perspective is better than mine, I'm just wonder how it compares.



A dragon is a rare that anyone can check and typically we bid dragon items between a group because its just a matter of checking it. How can you spend months farming shit and doing smaller fights then bid out items that are just another quest item? The point is that farming and checking a rare don't compare at all. They are especially different when fighting for a step in a quest rather than a reward. IMO the CM quest is poorly conceived and the amount of time it takes to do the big quest is just too much and done wrong.


ignorant post jake.

work is work anyway you slice it. If someone puts in the work to LEARN the quests, and are they first one to do it, then they should be the ones to benefit from it.
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Postby Ifin » Fri Jul 07, 2006 8:11 pm

I also agree w/the current pbase, the way CM is structured perhaps isn't the best for the reasons already mentioned. It is a kick ass zone, but probably when the pbase was a lot bigger.

I was thinking of why people get annoyed at helping for a final fight for CM, where there are other epic quests that require final fights that the player doing it doesn't necessarily bid out any items (or any of the good items) (ie. finders, erlan's, kern's).

It boils down to the fact that for lotsa months the 1-3 who start working on CM quests might neglect zone groups or the anon option, which would help everyone overall, to collect things over and over and then finally need help for the last fight. For the other epic quests, you need stuff from zones to complete, and everyone sees them working hard and sacrificing those zone items they got with everyone else to complete the quest.

And again, smiting the same mobs over and over for xx # of items is tedious not hard - doing good smites with bigger groups like dragons can also be time consuming but is "hard". Dumbest quest in the game at the moment is the platemail ore quest which follows along these same lines - I still don't understand how it could yield such an upgrade for something so pointless.

Good shit though to Silena and Klandan who actually took the time to figure everything out, and I don't think it was 100% super hard as much as maybe 50-50 cuz' it was 1st time and we didn't have right group. But now with any final fight I think everyone has to realize that it's an either-or situation, as in you put together a group, and say it takes 1 hr to smite something for you in which people get nothing, whereas the same group could have done a zone in that 1 hr and had a chance at something.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:07 pm

Ruxur wrote:ignorant post jake.

work is work anyway you slice it. If someone puts in the work to LEARN the quests, and are they first one to do it, then they should be the ones to benefit from it.


So what about the people who aren't the first? And how does that change the fact that killing a million mobs solo doesn't compare to forming a group when a rare loads. Farming is another way to control the amount that something is done, just like rare loading. Farming just makes it more of a timesink and takes players out of the rest of the game.
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Clarification

Postby Klandal » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:11 pm

Just for clarification, there are quite a few items required for CM quests that are acquired from zoning outside of CM. Just because people see a large portion of time spent finding/popping rares in CM, smiting hardass fights in CM, etc, it doesn't mean a substantial amount of time wasn't spent in gathering other items needed for the quests there.

I also think the fact that people had been asking for things that could be done in small groups before CM was introduced shows that the pbase decline started before CM's introduction. CM was in response to several things asked for by players that allowed people things to do when a full zone group wasn't available. It's also interesting to see people trying to blame CM for lack of zoning capability given the declining pbase before CM, as well as the fact that only a small handful of players spent enough time in CM to accomplish much quest-wise.

I will go on the record saying there were less times than I can count on one hand where I turned down a zone group for things I was doing in CM. Those parts were norent and not frequent. There were plenty of times, however, where I was asked to zone while in CM and I joined the zone group only to have it not reach zoning capacity.

I do appreciate the time and effort put into Comarian Mines and other well thought-out zones. I wish somebody that had a little better capability of gauging the transition from numbers on a page to in-game play was able to test crap before it was put in broken though. It's added quite a larger headache to a quest that would already be insanely difficult without unintended side-problems. The rewards have also been lacking, but I'll leave that until I'm completely done with the quest.
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Postby Gormal » Fri Jul 07, 2006 9:27 pm

Maedor wrote:on a side note, only the basement, blood dome and the end fight required more than 3 people to do, so everything is quite doable by a group of 1-5people.


This is a somewhat misleading statement, Greg. Just because a fight can be done by 1-5 people, we're still talking about random other people joining up with high death potential (I know I died plenty of times helping you out) and then just going on their merry way.

The only long-standing example that this quest compares to is Erlan's and Kern's quests. We did Aralesh yesterday too, and I think we had a total of 5 deaths from the death proc (go Finlaria). I think I've had one person die the last 4 times I've led Forka. Until those fights its just checking the zone, smiting the rare that loaded, and collecting the other items that load throughout zones on the game. It doesn't really force anyone to help you until say maybe doing Demogorgon to get you a helmet, or letting you claim a piece for 2h gith sword.
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Postby Lilira » Fri Jul 07, 2006 11:59 pm

I like the snack boxes!!!

(Sorry, just got my first one today. :P)
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Postby Teshidee » Thu Jul 13, 2006 10:42 am

greg killed me, too! *g*
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Postby Lilira » Wed Mar 07, 2007 1:30 am

Brando?

Can I ask why Yuan-tis in the mines aren't evil?

Was wandering down there with my pally just for some XP and trying to collect a few rings, and I get zip for xp smiting them cus they're neutral.

Yuan-ti are an evil race right??

Just my one little complaint WAY after the fact...
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Postby Sarell » Wed Mar 07, 2007 7:03 am

I figure CM was made so you could so some little quests while exping, neat idea. The problem is however it was a tiny bandaid. Exp shouldn't involve killing the same mob over and over period. So ultimately it's more a problem with the trophy and exp system than the zone. If you fixed trophy and exp tables up then the quests would become ridiculously pointless as you wouldn't be getting exp while gathering things for it. I have solo smitten doogers with one of my warriors for about 15% of his total exp to 50 and don't have enough scalps for a the quest I believe from what I understand from helping others out. Thats totally absurd. Some people say it's a good place for evils to exp, I'd be more inclined to say that it is a horrible boring place for evils to exp however the exp is so easy and plenty everyone does it. You can go from 1 - 50 on one mob, that's just plain stupid regardless of what zone it is, you could do it in several in theory.

In terms of people being used as CM donkeys for others. I agree it has happened, but it is the people more than the zone perhaps. I understand people want to keep their hard earned quest info somewhat tight. But when you can't even tell the people in your group, that you are killing repeatedly, what they are trying to achieve it is rather silly.
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Postby Brandobaris » Sun Mar 11, 2007 8:56 am

Lilira wrote:Can I ask why Yuan-tis in the mines aren't evil?

Was wandering down there with my pally just for some XP and trying to collect a few rings, and I get zip for xp smiting them cus they're neutral.

That seems reasonable to expect to be able to exp off them as a paladin. I'm looking at them though and they are evil already. Could you provide more specific details on which ones are causing a problem?

Sarell wrote:I have solo smitten doogers with one of my warriors for about 15% of his total exp to 50 and don't have enough scalps for a the quest I believe from what I understand from helping others out. Thats totally absurd.

I think you might be confused or mislead on your quest information, but if you believe there is a problem with the quest, you can talk with me about it.

Sarell wrote:Some people say it's a good place for evils to exp, I'd be more inclined to say that it is a horrible boring place for evils to exp however the exp is so easy and plenty everyone does it. You can go from 1 - 50 on one mob, that's just plain stupid regardless of what zone it is, you could do it in several in theory.

For some (or maybe most) groups, you're right. I tried to make a difference in the game. A person can work really hard and still not get the desired results. Unlike my first area, I felt as if CM was well received. The overall goal was to make an exp area for evils that was comparable to DS, while also having a lot of quests to add interest. I worked hard to make sure there were a variety of mobs for most levels of players. However, there are a half dozen mobs that players tend to do over and over and over, while mostly ignoring the rest. Given that I did work very hard to have a wide variety of things to do, this has been frustrating to me as well. I've tried hinting around at the other mobs that are there to kill, and had moderate success, but I can't make people try different things. ...and I don't blame anyone here, I do understand why you'd kill the same thing over and over, I just was hoping that the rest of my work would be better utilized. What we need is a nice trophy system. If some of my quests became hosed from it, I would consider that a fair trade.
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Postby Lilira » Sun Mar 11, 2007 2:23 pm

Brandobaris wrote:
Lilira wrote:Can I ask why Yuan-tis in the mines aren't evil?

Was wandering down there with my pally just for some XP and trying to collect a few rings, and I get zip for xp smiting them cus they're neutral.

That seems reasonable to expect to be able to exp off them as a paladin. I'm looking at them though and they are evil already. Could you provide more specific details on which ones are causing a problem?


My apologies. *frown* I just logged in this morning to check on them, and now they have red auras. I could have sworn that before they didn't, but I could be mistaken. Old age and all that. *wink* Thank you for the response.
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Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
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Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:26 am

FWIW I look at CM largely as an extension and refinement of the XP system pioneered in smoke - that is, while you're XPing, you can pick up potions, and occasionally rares will load for eq fights. Obviously the load ratios, work involved, and such differ, but that's only natural because the zones are different zones.

I have suffered XPwise by helping out for a few of those random fights, but I don't really have any complaints. Then again, I suspect I haven't seen the monster fight Gormal alludes to.

You can't please all of the people all of the time. That said, Brandobaris gets two thumbs up from me for trying.
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Postby Malvareth » Mon Mar 12, 2007 6:44 am

I have mixed feelings about CM. I haven't touched the quests there so I won't get into that, my concerns are with levelling there.

It seems that where TorilMUD generally is built to promote travelling and visiting different areas as you progress through levels, CM appears able to take you from very low levels and all the way up to 50. The levels/tiers of the zone means you can just grind through one until level xx, then descend to the next once you're capable or tired of your trophy penalty, and it's all designed obviously for the efficient grind - rogue mobs without daggers, few casters, little or no aggros, and with a nearby town where two thirds of the playerbase are welcome (I think goodies aren't). Just seems to go against the design of the rest of the mud, and judging by the amount of players xp'ing exclusively in this area, I'm wondering if it wasn't made just a bit too good and easy.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Mar 12, 2007 7:11 am

Malvareth wrote:I'm wondering if it wasn't made just a bit too good and easy.


Funny that a brand new player here can point this out, yet the areas sphere seemed to think it was a great idea...

I never understood how you could implement a single zone in which a player could start at level one and never leave until 50. Glad I spent months of my time working on a zone for mid-levels that most probably have never even been to...
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Postby Ambar » Mon Mar 12, 2007 1:43 pm

Mal .. VT is usable by ANY player, good and evil, and there is no penalty for trophy .. you just get less xp per mob as you level, thus the need to move to the next tier per every few levels .. technically you CAN go from 1-50 in CM ..

We complained that there was nothing like DS for the evils, now that there is, with plenty MORE to do besides grind xp, we complained it is too easy .. What is xp, too easy, or too much of a grind :P Guess it depends who you are and what your eq looks like :P

I think my issue with xp is that there are few areas you can go to that are risky besides the switch factor .. follow the tank, join the group, as long as you dont auto-assist you arent botting, go afk, come back every so often and you gain exp .. even in Randars as long as you have someone to keep you invisible there is no risk unless you go to the chef by accident ..
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Postby Gormal » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:10 pm

Not grinding my way up 50 levels is one of the biggest reasons I have no desire to play Toril anymore. Seeing everyone bot their chars in CM all the way up makes me sad. What's the point anymore?
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Postby Malvareth » Mon Mar 12, 2007 2:38 pm

I'm not brand new, I'm just not "elite" - I've played here over a year if I combine the times between breaks. That's not relevant, it doesn't take a veteran to see that CM is a place where you can level from 10 or whatever the first tier mobs are, and all the way to 50 without ever stepping foot outside the area. It's also easy to see that most other areas on the mud aren't designed that way. If I see someone around my level LFG'ing, 9 times out of 10 it's for CM and they won't even consider going somewhere else.
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Postby Birile » Mon Mar 12, 2007 3:41 pm

Malvareth wrote:If I see someone around my level LFG'ing, 9 times out of 10 it's for CM and they won't even consider going somewhere else.


I don't know which 9 out of 10 you're hanging with but I have to say that lately I've been hanging around with several honest to goodness new players who are more than willing to go ANYWHERE. Yeah, CM offers a lot of easy exp, but perhaps if you suggested someplace different those other LFGers at your level would be more than up to it? You can't learn very much about Toril in one zone, after all...
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Postby Gormal » Mon Mar 12, 2007 5:49 pm

Too bad Ilshad ruined wizzies.
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Postby Lilira » Mon Mar 12, 2007 8:05 pm

Hmm.. wonder what 2.0 will do to CMs/DS/Spirit Rav?

*ponder*
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Postby Brandobaris » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:20 am

moritheil wrote:FWIW I look at CM largely as an extension and refinement of the XP system pioneered in smoke - that is, while you're XPing, you can pick up potions, and occasionally rares will load for eq fights.

Yes, exactly :) One thing that can make smoke fun is finding prizes once in awhile. Though airship really took off on this idea first, and is a great example of one way to make exping more interesting.

Malvareth wrote:it's all designed obviously for the efficient grind - rogue mobs without daggers, few casters, little or no aggros, and with a nearby town where two thirds of the playerbase are welcome... Just seems to go against the design of the rest of the mud, and judging by the amount of players xp'ing exclusively in this area, I'm wondering if it wasn't made just a bit too good and easy.

I do enjoy a good argument from time to time, and at least this is a topic I know well. Yes, the area is designed so anyone can exp there, regardless of level, class, number of players, etc. However, rogues are one of many classes assigned to the mobs. There also are some aggros, unlike the three other main exp areas. The Mogr trap has claimed many players ;) There are also dangerous side areas. Another thing I did was offer lots of more powerful mobs and groups of mobs interspersed on each level, so if a group wants something harder, it's available. About going against the design of the mud, I'm not really sure I understand what you mean.

Tasan wrote:I never understood how you could implement a single zone in which a player could start at level one and never leave until 50.

That would be pretty boring, but yea, a person could do it. They've done it for years in DK. Some people like to sit around exp grinding, while some people like to explore. People can't be forced to explore, but I think giving people options is a good thing.

And a lot of mid-level areas get ignored, imo, from power-levelling. I've seen a LOT of players who when they reach lv 25 or 30, start getting levelled in pship and ds to 50. Again, I think a better trophy system would help with this.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:53 am

Brandobaris wrote:There also are some aggros, unlike the three other main exp areas.


Aggros which don't wander, or are secluded... not really sure how this can be used as an argument. Once someone has explored a tiny bit, they'll know where the 2-3 bad rooms are and just avoid them, basically negating any of the difficulty w/ exp in an area with aggressives.

I mean please don't try to claim how you somehow improved on the model of experience while still adding a risk factor when obviously there is LITTLE to no risk to exp there compared with any other exp zone.

Brandobaris wrote:About going against the design of the mud, I'm not really sure I understand what you mean.


And this would be the main problem...

If you can't understand the detriments to the rest of the game from providing more reward for time spent than any other zone in the game, god help you.

Brandobaris wrote:People can't be forced to explore, but I think giving people options is a good thing.


Well you certainly don't force anyone to explore... your zone is all-inclusive experience less than 100 mvs from DK(the major evil hub) and less than 50 rooms from either CP(hometown) or VT(neutral/evil hangout).

Options? There are few viable ones for evils... perhaps one of the major problems plaguing that side. You've basically given them the only option because it's safe/easy and not but a few steps away. The rest of the underdark doesn't compare.

I appreciate the work and time you've put into the zone, I just question the intent of making a zone that is so all-inclusive.

Brandobaris wrote:Again, I think a better trophy system would help with this.


Or... god forbid... you could do away with "exp" zones and make all zones require thought/action while providing experience rewards as well. I miss the days of running Jot w/ 5 people for experience... but who wants to risk wasting 2-3 hours of grinding for a little bit of fun? Basically no one.
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Postby Ifin » Tue Mar 13, 2007 6:51 am

Brando's problem is that he makes zones too good from Izan's to CM. Honestly.

I complained about Izan's earlier, but then really if more zones had very low-low % great eq, it'd make zone lifespan better. Izan's is relatively short, can be risky or not, and is fun.

And can't fault Brando that trophy is non-existent. I do disagree that we "can't make people explore."

CM quests do seem too tedious, and xp is too good for risk vrs. effort vrs. reward. But, bringing up already discussed issues, great places where there are aggros and you learn stuff and new environments, a la HP, IC, MS, etc., those xp places got NERFED before. WHY?!?! Or even SS is pretty damn fun w/all those guards around for 10-20 xp before, but it's totally not worth going there anymore. WHY?!?!

If trophy was put in a long time ago like it should, or if other places xp were re-worked, etc. etc. then people will find it more worthwhile to explore which makes exploring funner.

So think of a situation where imms see complaints about making DS and places like CM where you get xp and progress to tedious quests "over-powered" for xp, and yet they nerf places that will make you pay attention and stuff.

So I wouldn't fault Brando at all.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Mar 13, 2007 1:02 pm

Ifin wrote:Brando's problem is that he makes zones too good from Izan's to CM. Honestly.


Hence my statement about the EqCalc not being broken until people abused it. Actually it's somewhat ironic... since most area makers would be pissed about people exploiting things they hadn't intended.

Ifin wrote:WHY?!?!


For the same reason that zones like SPoB, Izan's and GF were allowed into the game... because apparently there is such a dearth of work to approve that anything will get approved without much of a consideration of impact.

Ifin wrote:So I wouldn't fault Brando at all.


Shrug. He abused the EqCalc to create better rewards than what should have been and the economy of the mud and the player base suffered for it. Obviously not completely his mistake as someone should have reviewed the work and put some limitations on things, but I digress...
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Postby Birile » Tue Mar 13, 2007 2:24 pm

I personally think the problem with the EqCalc abuse and exploitation--and I do think it IS a problem--warrants its own thread.
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Postby Latreg » Tue Mar 13, 2007 3:52 pm

Malvareth wrote: CM is a place where you can level from 10 or whatever the first tier mobs are, and all the way to 50 without ever stepping foot outside the area. It's also easy to see that most other areas on the mud aren't designed that way. If I see someone around my level LFG'ing, 9 times out of 10 it's for CM and they won't even consider going somewhere else.


Play a day blind race. You level to 20 in scardale, if you don't take advantage of scardale you are just plain silly. I would rather have a rogue exp me in Rander's funny no one complains about that. So rather than solo, get a rogue to power level you. The fault is not the zone or the writer, the fault is the design of exp and the group penalty, which is going to be fixed in 2.0, or so I've heard.
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Postby Sarell » Sat Mar 17, 2007 11:05 am

Here's an idea...

Upgrade trophy, downgrade tables.

Then even the most messed up abusive designed zone can't be hacked for more than say 3% total exp.
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Postby Maedor » Sat Mar 17, 2007 8:56 pm

If Brando would have used the full amount of points the new calc allots, i believe he told me the main quest would yield several dozen 3dam rings.

The quest obviosly rewards faaaaaar less than that:P So while you may not agree with the rewards (of which only 2 people know the stats), they are far less powerful than he could justify using the new calc.

That being said..it is pretty sad that the new calc turned dcult robes, upgraded green scalemail etc into such incredible items. They're overblown:P

btw...how does the bryn upgrade quest justify adding a 4th damroll to green scalemail? 3 to 4 dam takes an item from ok to insane...I know the 2maxcon my spob suit gained wasn't anywhere near as cool..yet fit the ease of the upgrade..

Sorry for the side_rant..CM..like every zone..has it's issues, but overall, I'm a big fan (besides the fact that since August, I havent been able to get groups to help with 2 fights so I can finish:( ) The staff even told me the final fight isn't a cluster**** anymore!
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Postby Gormal » Mon Mar 19, 2007 3:06 pm

Feel free to read the thread before posting about your CM crap, Greg. Because no one cares about it.



(Its about experience.)
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Postby Maedor » Mon Mar 19, 2007 8:47 pm

Gormal wrote:Feel free to read the thread before posting about your CM crap, Greg. Because no one cares about it.



(Its about experience.)


Yawn, go back to playing WoW. Your uneducated comments are irritating.
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Postby Brandobaris » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:30 pm

Tasan wrote:Aggros which don't wander, or are secluded... not really sure how this can be used as an argument. Once someone has explored a tiny bit, they'll know where the 2-3 bad rooms are and just avoid them, basically negating any of the difficulty w/ exp in an area with aggressives.

I mean please don't try to claim how you somehow improved on the model of experience while still adding a risk factor when obviously there is LITTLE to no risk to exp there compared with any other exp zone.

All I said was there is some danger.

Brandobaris wrote:About going against the design of the mud, I'm not really sure I understand what you mean.


Tasan wrote:And this would be the main problem...

If you can't understand the detriments to the rest of the game from providing more reward for time spent than any other zone in the game, god help you.

This is like when a woman would say "Well, if you don't know why I'm mad, then I'm not going to tell you." I'm not really good at guessing what's on people's minds if they don't explain themself. Having a wide range of levels in an area is nothing new, and the exp is not assigned by me, so I'm not really sure what to say. Maybe you have a beef with me on a personal level.

Tasan wrote:Options? There are few viable ones for evils...

Here are some good places to exp for an evil.
dk
ds
havenport
minotaurs
monestary
pship
scardale
smoke
ssc

Tasan wrote:I appreciate the work and time you've put into the zone, I just question the intent of making a zone that is so all-inclusive.

Obviously my intent was to destroy the mud.
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Postby Brandobaris » Mon Apr 02, 2007 9:39 pm

Tasan wrote:He abused the EqCalc...and the economy of the mud and the player base suffered for it.

*rubs his hands together evilly* It only took a couple years of work, but the plan is working perfectly! >:)
*pulls on his long, curled villain moustache*
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Apr 02, 2007 10:22 pm

Brandobaris wrote:
Tasan wrote:He abused the EqCalc...and the economy of the mud and the player base suffered for it.

*rubs his hands together evilly* It only took a couple years of work, but the plan is working perfectly! >:)
*pulls on his long, curled villain moustache*


I'm not one for RP but damn that one made me LOL

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Postby Tasan » Tue Apr 03, 2007 12:22 am

Brandobaris wrote:
Tasan wrote:He abused the EqCalc...and the economy of the mud and the player base suffered for it.

*rubs his hands together evilly* It only took a couple years of work, but the plan is working perfectly! >:)
*pulls on his long, curled villain moustache*


I'm glad you think it's funny. It's funny how many players have left too.
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