Justice for evils etc.

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Thilindel
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Justice for evils etc.

Postby Thilindel » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:15 pm

Why do intruder guards not come out in BG, CP, etc, for a troll, ogre, illithid, etc. All of which are a'holes by nature. Yet the intruder guards pop and track down lich? Makes no sense. Illithid is just as evil as any undead.

Actually illithids are worse, they wanna enslave everybody. Undead just like brains :P
daggaz
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Postby daggaz » Mon Jul 10, 2006 8:44 pm

Cuz those towns take after the cities in the books where all races are more or less free to intermingle... Cities that, while not necessarily evil, don't exactly cater to the vanguards of truth, justice,and the palladin way.

While ogres, trolls, orcs, etc.. aren't exactly the nicest customers, they do have societies and most importantly, goods to trade. Even Illithids have a place in this, tho by all means they are greatly feared and I would be surprised to find them tolerated in any large number.

Liches, on the otherhand, are steeped in the most unholy of all magics. Necromancy (with rare exception) is of the blackest of evils and is the foundation of a force opposing all life, ogre or human. Liches stand at the pinnacle of this force, and their very existance is a threat to the living.

A good case in point: Liches aren't even allowed in most evil hometowns.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:51 am

Thanks Daggaz for saying what I've been TRYING to say for a long time. Liches are the OUTCASTS OF THE OUTCAST!!! NOBODY likes them. They are rotten to the core with their shrunken flesh, glowing eyed walking corpses. As a necromancer I can't take my pets in to any city but VT ( an outpost for outcasts!!!). Why in the WORLD are they gonna let undead wander through just because it has a higher level of sentience? Liches are known for walking in and taking over the joint by raising graveyards and turning them on the city folk. Heck no they aren't wanted in any kind of civilized society!

When you choose to lich, you give things up. Its a very powerful class so there HAS to be disads to playing it. Being an outcast is one of them, as is having to walk everywhere.

The day they let liches start wandering the streets of WD, BG, CP or any other civilized town (be it good raced or evil) is the day I wanna be able to move to the elven isle.. probably the only place safe cus Queen A would not put up with such unnatural creatures. *shudder* BLEH.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
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Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:25 am

First off, I hate RP. RP vs. logic in this mud is very hit and miss. Sometimes, things make no sense whatsoever, then other times who knows. Hell, even the logic of rot vs. creeping doom. Doom lands against corporeal undead, not wraithform. Rot doesn't land on undead, period. Pretty lame.

Another example, but there are tons out there, is human vs. ogre strength:

Assuming both have 100 strength...

384 vs. 1696 (weight allowed)
5 vs. 10 DAMROLL (what on earth!?)

However, the relative code shows humans with a baseline 100 strength against an ogre's 210. Halflings have 62.5 for the code. Even funnier to consider halfling strength - their 100 str gives 150 weight and 3 damroll. So 30% damroll of an ogre, who can carry over 11x more. Critic rate means crap really, cuz -again RP is stupid- if you walk into a gym and get hit by pee wee herman vs. some titan pushing 20 plates on the olympic bar, there's gonna be a WORLD of difference in damage done. Maybe critic rate should have something to do with destroying a weapon from the force it receives while parrying, etc from a strong attacker or even destroying armor from a crushing blow. Dexterity _should_ be what decides a critic hit. Just cuz a dude is strong doesn't mean he'll hit you in a vulnerable spot. It usually means you still get hurt even when you've blocked him. Tis why boxers try to dodge instead of parry.

Another stupid STUPID thing of logic and 'justice' on this mud. You can be in the tunnels on the east side of WD where there aren't even mobs 10 rooms away. Yet some-f'g-how, guards come in within 20 seconds or so and beat the piss out of you. How and Why?! There weren't any witnesses to even see. That is for both lich and evilrace in that example.

I know I'm not the only one who doesn't see why lich is shit on so hard by the mud.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Jul 11, 2006 12:54 pm

Some of the law rules are simply made to make the game playable.

In gloomhaven drows would mabye be killed on sight, but that would make the game unplayable for the regular races.

With Waterdeep and the sewers then sadly its just a game-technical issue that most likely is more a fix than anything else (justice code). Evil races can walk into the sewer of WD in both the south and north end of WD, but not the east end.

A few towns like Hyssk, Leuthilspar and Menzoberranzan enforces the actual law that would count, and the result is that very few go there.

Your post was a little messy with evil races and liches etc, so my post is just about why evil races are allowed into certain towns.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Jul 11, 2006 1:14 pm

1) Fantasy Game based on an RP Game. Anyone who looks at a D&D book sees the words FANTASY ROLE-PLAYING Game somewhere, usually pretty prominent.

2) Doom is a spell based on a horde of insects attacking something. If its a wraithform ummm... THERE'S NOTHING FOR THE BUGS TO HIT!

3) Rot should not do damage to undead because umm.. they're already rotting and they're DEAD! Do liches get Annhilate Undead??

4) As for the str vs. str thing.. *shrug* can't win them all. I'm not a coder, so I don't pretend to know how it works. I'm also not a numbers analyst and I play for fun, not dissection.

5) The tunnels.. ya got me, I agree.. sorta. WD in the realms of the books has literally thousands of people living there if I remember correctly. Its a very highly populated city. If the mud put in a mob for every person on some published census for WD, it would be lagged to hell from just the mobs, so you can always assume someone is hiding somewhere, though the tunnels are full of seedy people. Maybe instead of guard response, have a bunch of smugglers show up and tell something to get the heck out or pay a toll.

Logic doesn't always have a place in fantasy. Hello.. look at MAGIC. Come on. Its a game. I've felt plenty of times the mud is TOO strict on some things, too book-like. You're telling me Squids are the only psis out there when there's a whole house of drow in Menzo literature who are psis as well?? You're telling me an invoker can't find a polymorph self spell and disguise herself? A bard can't do the same using stage makeup? There have to be restrictions.

Evil raced characters are born evil. Its something inherent and should not be used as a comparison with liches. Liches are VERY powerful so they have to give up something!!! Come on, they willingly DIE and become a creature that hates life and everything related to the living. Even a drow would raise an eyebrow at that. They CHOOSE to do this for the power. Noone dragged you around and used the force command to make you lich over. If these restrictions didn't exist for lich, I'm certain there would be an even larger amount of people posting that the lich class is SICK and needs to be toned down to balance the mud.

We also know that change is in the works. Lets stop stomping up and down, screaming for fixes when we don't know what's already in the works to BE fixed.

Thil, you know where to find me on-line if you wanna argue some more, but looking at numbers and rolls is looking at the skeleton of the game. You need the RP portion, the story (I'm not saying you have to RP), to flesh it out and give it heart, or it becomes like a lich, dried up, withered and full of hate.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:06 pm

You completely missed the point on rot vs. doom. Both are spells that have bugs, a.k.a. creepy crawlies. DOOM hits corporeal undead, ROT doesn't. Last I looked, bugs are bugs. And hey, somehow you can't bash, trip (mobs CAN tailsweep tho) or shieldpunch a wraithform - but _somehow_ you can KICK wraithform...oook.

Just stick with that part on doom vs. rot. You got insect spell vs. insect spell. Then you think a person with a shield trying to bash a wraithform. Never works. You can damage this wraithform with your fists, somehow. Then there's the everpowerful KICK, which connects. Ah, the magical butt kick.

Just why is it you feel lich is so uber powerful? You don't know the class. Lots of crap was added to necro after liching was made an option. This isn't a necro vs. lich thread, however necros can hold their own quite well. When it comes to travel, necros win hands down. Same with pets for that matter if you want your ghosts to come along. Lich gets to walk.

While it's pointless to talk about lich offense vs. necromancer, I'll just stick with the utility portion. You can argue all night about lich vs. necro on power. Pets lose vampiric curse, etc when the player liches. That in itself is substantial. Oh, and no, lich don't get annihilate undead. They get siphon undead. Anyway:

Lich can still vamp touch
Lich can heal on demand.
Lich get life drain
Lich won't bother with energy drain
...death pact is alright

Necro can heal from vamp
Necro can energy drain, and hope mob fails save.
Necro and pets get the 'Walks' spells
etc.

Lots of cases where necro is better to bring along. Pets are the core power of the necromancer/lich, not the player.
Botef
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Postby Botef » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:30 pm

Thilindel wrote:Lich can still vamp touch
Lich can heal on demand.
Lich get life drain
Lich won't bother with energy drain
...death pact is alright

Necro can heal from vamp
Necro can energy drain, and hope mob fails save.
Necro and pets get the 'Walks' spells
etc.

Lots of cases where necro is better to bring along. Pets are the core power of the necromancer/lich, not the player.


Uh, necro pets cant life walk...Its a pain in the ass for a necromancer to get around with pets just like it is for lich. Nerco pets cant cast vamp curse and have it land, only the necro himself. Necromancers cannot damage a large number of mobs effectivly (i.e. elementals, golems, or anything nonflesh/plant/undead). Energy drain very rarely lands on high level mobs, leeching at max 20-30 hps....The time it takes to land one on a high level mob is comparable to the time the hps you gain wear off. How exactly are necromancer pets more uber than lichs? And since when is a necromancer more sought after for damage in a group over a lich?

Lichs get that spiffy crown, which allows up to what, 4 skeletons...I'd say in terms of pets Lichs have much much more potential.

Necromancers perks are primarily in travel, and its limited exclusivly to the necromancer himself, not his pets...Yea I can life walk anywhere, but I have to reraise pets once I do which isnt much of a perk in and of itself. Soul walk makes us functional in a group by giving us a purpose, as our damage is rather weak unless the zone is Undead (And even then lichs are just as capable of dealing damage) or all flesh types, and even then our damage output is somewhat lacking.

I understand the travel complaint, and agree lichs should have a near unlimited number of moves or an insane move regen.

Yay, vamp curse, big woop...Nice for xp, but its utterly useless in a zone. The land rate is too low, and its a single target spell...By the time you do land it, odds are the mob is gonna be dead soon. Not to mention its in the same circle as soul walk/life walk/globe and animate ghost...

IMO the only reason Necromancers are better to bring along is soul walk...
Last edited by Botef on Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Jul 11, 2006 7:41 pm

There is nothing worse than liches. You can rail against the roleplay elements of this game as much as you wish, however there are aspects of roleplay in everything you do. A character who has sacrificed their mortality and embraced undeath, a state so unnatural that animals would instinctively shy away from it, is much worse than any evilrace character. This is why almost no settlement with any cohesive guard force will allow a lich to enter the city.

The world of the forgotten realms is massive. I believe I've read once that the planet at least comprises about 3 times the size of Earth. We cannot create a mobile for every person or creature within the Faerun continent, so some background presence must be assumed when you approach a settlement. While the justice system is far from perfect or preferred, that is the basis of the alarm bells ringing when an outcast character enters the city limits (zone border).

I would also like to clear up some misconceptions presented within this thread.

Necromancer pets may cast soul walk, life walk and vampiric curse. None of them will ever work, and will do nothing but waste a spell slot until it regenerates. If you see it work, please notify me because it is pretty definite within the code.

Siphon Undead is the only spell in the series that provides healing back to the caster. Both disruption burst and annihilate undead do nothing but damage.

Rot is not simply another bugs spell. It expressly states that it accelerates the decay process in a foe; a process which does not matter to the undead. Living corporeals have an aversion to an accelerated decay; decaying the undead doesn't matter to them.

Kick affecting wraithform mobs wasn't intended. Thank you for reporting the bug.
Eilistraee
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:28 pm

Botef wrote:A) Uh, necro pets cant life walk..
B) Nerco pets cant cast vamp curse and have it land, only the necro himself.
C) Necromancers cannot damage a large number of mobs effectivly (i.e. elementals, golems, or anything nonflesh/plant/undead).
D) Energy drain very rarely lands on high level mobs, leeching at max 20-30 hps....
E) How exactly are necromancer pets more uber than lichs?
F) And since when is a necromancer more sought after for damage in a group over a lich?

G) Lichs get that spiffy crown, which allows up to what, 4 skeletons...I'd say in terms of pets Lichs have much much more potential.

H) Yay, vamp curse, big woop...

I) IMO the only reason Necromancers are better to bring along is soul walk...


a) I meant to say they get the quest spells whether you quest or not.
b) Necro pets most certainly could vamp curse. I have log after log before I liched showing that. Maybe it changed since then.
c) Funny, lich can't damage golems or elementals en masse either. Both necro/lich have to use rain of blood for that situation.
d) Energy drain landed over 50% when I was necro. I didn't use it for my other necro due to its -6 align penalty per cast. I have logs up to 45 hps/cast.
e) Pending the validation of vampiric curse or not, was the pivotal point in that claim. After liching, I can't say what necro pets have had removed from their abilities.
f) I didn't address the power of one verses the other. Except for rot, there's virtually no difference. Lich touch vs. abi's wilt. Both are single target for lesser circles. Life drain's damage is laughable.
g) I can't have over 2 skeletons via that crown now. Not sure if duration was reduced. The crown is result of a quest for lich only, but it absolutely doesn't define a lich. It's eq, not the lich. Skellies tank like ogres. One skelly per 3+ hours doesn't make it whatsoever reliable in zoning.
h) vamp curse has absolutely saved some asses in areas like seelie from group spanks when I was necro'g for them.
i) Tia whores :( Other than rot, there's not a whole lot more for a lich. You can most definitely keep yourself a live better than a necromancer with heal.

And for Eilistraee, I'm not trying to be mean if I sound that way for RP in general. I just don't like it myself. If someone else wants to RP that's fine with me. But for the vampiric curse comment, it'd worked the entire time I was a necro as far as it landing from pets, it always did. I liched in August last year approx. It'd always worked from January 2005 up to that point.

Siphon undead does not always give any hps, and it seems to give cure critic hps when it does. That being per mob (up to 5). As for rot and doom. Both cases, the critters are biting is how I saw it and talked of it from there. :)
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Jul 11, 2006 9:39 pm

Oh yeah, Aluvon and I may be liches, but we aren't so bad! =D I'm the locale de-aging bish every time I'm on
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Postby Ssryth » Tue Jul 11, 2006 11:25 pm

Hmm elements of this thread is digging up old stuff. It's been stated many times in the past the "gap" between necro and lich has narrowed and it is no longer a foregone conclusion for necros to become liches.

My biggest issue with liches is still travelling. I believe I still have a stockpile of driftwood staves for this very purpose... which I had to quest with alts because liches are outcast from CP ! :P This problem with having to walk everywhere was really emphasised once I started playing an illusionist haha.

Ssryth.

ps. you do not want to fight mobs that holy word as a lich ...
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:03 am

Lilira wrote:Liches are the OUTCASTS OF THE OUTCAST!!! NOBODY likes them. They are rotten to the core with their shrunken flesh, glowing eyed walking corpses. (etc) *shudder* BLEH.


By the way, I never heard this complaining when my lich xp'd your alts and got you eq from moontemple, etc.
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Postby Lilira » Wed Jul 12, 2006 2:33 am

Because I know what its like to be passionate about something in particular, AND you happen to be a guildmate, I will ignore the fact you chose to make this personal.

Because you chose to make it personal, this is my last post on this thread.
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 12, 2006 5:31 am

I wasn't being personal. There's passion in how you write that lich is filth, despised by all. And since you RP seemingly all the time, that's what I was pointing out. Maybe I should have put a ' :P ' at the end of the last statement?
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Postby daggaz » Wed Jul 12, 2006 4:52 pm

Hmm skipped thru most of your complaints... found it especially amusing tho that you you complain about RP while playing a game that is expressedly based on an RP environment, and which even contains a disclaimer claiming that RP, while not enforced, is highly encouraged.

But on to the one point nobody addressed for you...

Why do 100 str humans get 5 dam and ogres only get 10?

Try rolling two level ones, give the human 5 dam in eq, and take them into the arena. They wont hit even remotely with the same damage (the ogre will outdo the human) and this effect just amplifies with levels.

Its called a damage modifier. Its code you cannot see. Obviously, there is a TON of code you cannot see... try testing things out a little more before jumping to the usual conclusions.


Ok, nuff said. Don't like it, then make your usual lowbrow shots at my mental health. Until then, hope you enjoy your game. See ya all in Iceland, -Daggaz
Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 12, 2006 8:09 pm

*yawn* and that relative noob analogy vanishes when the ratio goes from 2:1 to virtually same damage at lvl 50. That type logic you talked about reminds me of why people complain that they have a hotrod, then lose to someone with a silly 4 cyl with 300+ hp.

Try thinking more in depth before wasting my time reading your stuff. If you deck out both players, the result will be damned near the same. Until they make warriors actually outdo rogues for damage, it's pointless either way.

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