Zone Recovery Code!!!

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:36 pm

Sarell wrote:Here's an idea for spob I gave before. Sit a !kill spectral dragon at the start with a quest, word it how you like. If you give it yig keystone for example, it taps into some secret power and kills everything on the top grid and tendrils. Thus resetting your progress slightly.

The mud doesn't crash much anymore your right. Only when you are doing a hard zone usually.


The problem still comes from this in that if you kill everything up to Yig, and Yig is 2 hits from dying and it crashes, people will still bitch and complain that they "wasted" their time.
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Postby Sarvis » Tue Jul 25, 2006 9:57 pm

Tasan wrote:Sarvis, I asked you if you had real solutions to the problem, and you come up with the same shit that MMORPG's came up with. Well guess what, this isn't an MMO. This game wasn't built from the ground up with the idea of a persistant world.


Actually, it is and it was. MUDs are MMORPGs, inasmuch as MMORPGs grew out of MUDs and basically added graphics and, well, success to the genre. This world wasn't built with the idea of being persistent? Are you on crack? Does your character go back to level one every time you quit playing? No, because it's <i>persistant</i>.

The code and areas would need a serious overhaul to create this recovery code.


Not necessarily, but I don't care to argue the point as I don't necessarily favor recovery code... I just think it's a copout to call flaws in the code part of the gameplay.

And at what cost? People started calling it Evercamp for a reason. Many people have stated the same problems we have here with WoW. I don't see an overwhelmingly perfect game out there designed to make everyone happy.


No, there isn't. What's that got to do with depending on bugs instead of actually designing the game system though?


So what if the mud crashed several times in 1 day? You all are saying you won't play a game that crashes, so there's less zoning going on and less eq coming into the game. There's a reason crashing and RvR go hand in hand.


Yes, it's called being too lazy to design a better system.

Taking away the possibility of a crash makes zones that are supposedly long and difficult become something you don't even worry about. Less and less people are needed for a zone since a small group of players can take their time and do it themselves. More whining comes from this because the rest of the mud gets bored because those same small group people are the ones that usually lead the rest around. So we're back at your argument for why this place is boring.


How about this, if you truly find racing crashes to get something done exciting then reload Windows 95 on your system and play the MUD through a really old version of zMud. Or hell, I'll write you a buggier client even.

If the zones are too easy because players can take their time, then the solution isn't to create a buggy game but to create situations in the zone which press players forward.

Jot not being done for weeks? Jot doesn't get done for weeks _now_ because so much jot(and better) equipment flooded the game that there hasn't been a need to go back for anything but rares.


In the end, all promises of reward will eventually be used up. So what if Jot eq has flooded the MUD? Crashing obviously hasn't stopped that, it's just annoyed players. Jot is no longer a goal for <i>long time</i> players because they've all done it already... the only new goals must come from new zones. Eventually you stop levelling, you stop gaining eq... you stop really having anything to do. If having too much Jot equipment available really irritates you, duckpond it and get a Jot run together.


Comparing this game to graphical MMO's is comparing apple's to elephants. Even you should be ashamed of that analogy. We don't have the marketing and we don't have the administration, we aren't necessarily on the coding frontier as far as computer games go. For anyone to come in and take a look at this game and try to compare it to a genre spawned from the genre this game came from is mind-boggling.


SAme genre? Heh... MMORPGs were pretty much spawned from <i>this game</i>, considering several of the Everquest developers were old time Sojourn/Toril players.

You're right that we don't have the marketing, or the administration... so what we need is a better play experience. Crashing is not a better play experience.

Btw when's the last time you actually played? Oh right. Well it shows. We've never had an uptime of over 80 hours let alone a week, Eil has


Never? Must be the mud crashes more now than when I used to play, because I definately remember the MUD being up over 80 hours a few times and players absolutely BEGGING the imms for a reboot.

What? Sarvis says the mud never reboots, you say it frequently crashes... so which is it?


Well, for starters crashes and reboots are different things. For enders, the MUD could easily go a week without a crash (or reboot) and then crash 6 times in one day. Crashes are kind of unpredictable like that.


And I'm confused by this statement... I already stated that most of the people I know that have moved on didn't do it because of crashing. Face it, saying crashes drive people away is a cop-out as well. If someone doesn't like an aspect of the game, yes they are going to leave. I wouldn't dream of this game appeasing everyone who tried it.


So then why provide them as many reasons to leave as possible?
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Postby Tasan » Tue Jul 25, 2006 10:44 pm

My view of MMO's differs from yours obviously, sorry. I view <i>massive</i> as a rather large number, far exceeding any number of players this game has ever had.

My view of persistance is different too. No you don't go back to level 1, but you don't go back to level 1 in Final Fantasy either, and that isn't a persistant world. Yes the world continues while you are sleeping here, but in all reality the time period etc. don't move. I apologize for having a convoluted view.

Shev's already stated his view, so this is all moot anyhow. Good luck with your argument. I haven't seen any real reason it needs to be taken care of.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 26, 2006 2:35 am

Tasan wrote:My view of MMO's differs from yours obviously, sorry. I view <i>massive</i> as a rather large number, far exceeding any number of players this game has ever had.


That's just a matter of scale though. The basic ideas behind the games are the same.

My view of persistance is different too. No you don't go back to level 1, but you don't go back to level 1 in Final Fantasy either, and that isn't a persistant world. Yes the world continues while you are sleeping here, but in all reality the time period etc. don't move. I apologize for having a convoluted view.


The time period doesn't really move in most (all?) MMORPGs either...

Shev's already stated his view, so this is all moot anyhow. Good luck with your argument. I haven't seen any real reason it needs to be taken care of.


The amusing thing is that I agree with Shev, and am only arguing that making the MUD as crash free as possible is the best way to run it.

That said, if the MUD is crash-free, and the only time zones/rareloads reset is on a complete restart... something will have to be developed to ensure people don't run out of things to do during long uptimes.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:28 am

Tasan wrote:Face it, saying crashes drive people away is a cop-out as well. If someone doesn't like an aspect of the game, yes they are going to leave.


Ahem. Like I said, bad software is not a strategy. Software stability is still a major factor, and design based on crashes to breathe life into the game is just bad policy.

The only cop-out is believing that bad design doesn't hurt the mud.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:43 am

trying to refocus and understand here.

fact: the mud crashes
fact: it doesn't crash as much as it use to
fact: the pbase is older than it use to be (see the poll thread)
fact: the pbase isn't as large as it use to be
fact: many people don't have the time to mud that they use to
fact: there is a large amount of gear in the game unused
fact: most of the players have out grown the lower level zones, equipment wise

So here it is, how often does the mud crash on average? Once a month? So this crash recovery system (if it went in) would get used or a group would benefit from it once a month at most? this is dumbing down the mud? I would think crashes happen when no groups are zoning and there fore the use of the system would be even less....
Now maybe the mud crashes a lot more than I'm aware of, in which case I guess that's a seperate issue.

shoot I forgot to head off the probable replies

"so if it happens so rarely why do we need the recovery system"?
because when it does happen and people have to restart the zone it pisses them off because many of them don't have the time to restart it. Even corpses get left behind, with little or no chance to cr it, unless you do the zone again (this happened in Scorps) In a perfect world crashes would never happen. All this keeps people without lots of time from doing things, don't see how this is good for the mud.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Jul 26, 2006 11:58 am

Latreg wrote:trying to refocus and understand here.

fact: the mud crashes
fact: it doesn't crash as much as it use to
fact: the pbase is older than it use to be (see the poll thread)
fact: the pbase isn't as large as it use to be
fact: many people don't have the time to mud that they use to
fact: there is a large amount of gear in the game unused
fact: most of the players have out grown the lower level zones, equipment wise

So here it is, how often does the mud crash on average? Once a month? So this crash recovery system (if it went in) would get used or a group would benefit from it once a month at most? this is dumbing down the mud? I would think crashes happen when no groups are zoning and there fore the use of the system would be even less....
Now maybe the mud crashes a lot more than I'm aware of, in which case I guess that's a seperate issue.

shoot I forgot to head off the probable replies

"so if it happens so rarely why do we need the recovery system"?
because when it does happen and people have to restart the zone it pisses them off because many of them don't have the time to restart it. Even corpses get left behind, with little or no chance to cr it, unless you do the zone again (this happened in Scorps) In a perfect world crashes would never happen. All this keeps people without lots of time from doing things, don't see how this is good for the mud.


It seems to me it pisses a very very small segment of the population off, and personally i'd rather have 2.0 finished, than to have them work on some sort of crash recovery system.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 26, 2006 12:03 pm

Lets all see what the owner of the mud says :)
Shevarash wrote:This MUD is easily the most stable its been in the years I've been around, and that is because we've strived to correct the crash bugs.

So how about we just keep on doing that and provide the most stable game we can.

How we get responses from the people that make decisions and still argue it is funny :)

Two other immorts have responded and we STILL argue :)
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Postby Latreg » Wed Jul 26, 2006 3:54 pm

It seems to me it pisses a very very small segment of the population off, and personally i'd rather have 2.0 finished, than to have them work on some sort of crash recovery system.


right because 2.0 won't crash so it's a non-issue, makes sense to me! This whole this is funny, how is really any different than when mobs get added to a zone and or they get beefed up and causes a huge spank (they get no gear), why not post on thoses threads and tell them to quit whining and deal with it? I just don't see the difference. People post about them because they are a negative event beyond the players control that makes them not enjoy the zone or the mud. Just because I'm the most vocal don't think there aren't a lot of others who feel the same way.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:01 pm

Ambar wrote:Lets all see what the owner of the mud says :)
Shevarash wrote:This MUD is easily the most stable its been in the years I've been around, and that is because we've strived to correct the crash bugs.

So how about we just keep on doing that and provide the most stable game we can.

How we get responses from the people that make decisions and still argue it is funny :)

Two other immorts have responded and we STILL argue :)


Well, when one of the imms responds in favor of the game <i>crashing</i> it makes me worried...

Besides, arguing is what I do. :P
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Postby Latreg » Wed Jul 26, 2006 4:03 pm

Ambar wrote:Lets all see what the owner of the mud says :)
Shevarash wrote:This MUD is easily the most stable its been in the years I've been around, and that is because we've strived to correct the crash bugs.

So how about we just keep on doing that and provide the most stable game we can.

How we get responses from the people that make decisions and still argue it is funny :)

Two other immorts have responded and we STILL argue :)


I consider it more a debate than an arguement, I like to debate, shrug it's fun ;) And yes one of the other immorts said it can be done....
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Postby Gormal » Wed Jul 26, 2006 5:54 pm

In.
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Postby Lahgen » Wed Jul 26, 2006 6:18 pm

Heh, god forbid we still fail to agree after an imm has spoken. Funny how autonomous human minds work, right? :)

By the way, Ambar, what do you think about one of those imms concept about the mud crashing and robbing us of our hard work being a good thing? :)
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Postby Ambar » Wed Jul 26, 2006 8:04 pm

How are bitching about crashes and testing new/existing zones the same?

Keep in mind the majority of the immorts are oldschool PLAYERS who livedas mortals in the harsher times of soj and toril :) Their views in most cases are pretty similar to the majority of today's hardcore players :)

I think the only time reimbs/resets are justified are when its a player/immorts fault or if its epic zone/quest related. Blaming code is silly, all code is are some strange figures in a machine :) Can crashes be improved upon/lessened with testing and revamping? Of course:) Everything can be improved upon.

Back in the day when the mud crashed mid zone, we simply regrouped and started over. Why can't the newer players understand it and do the same thing? Gentler kinder mudding is sad:P

You ask why I feel this way? I have always been an *o well* kind of person. Zone crash? O well.. I didnt win 500000 bids in a row? O well. Shrug.. To me a crash means more fun, more killing :) and maybe just maybe a pretty new shiny toy. Repeated crashes? Are a problem that I'm quite sure our capable staff will look into.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Jul 26, 2006 9:16 pm

I don't understand most of the arguments made here.

While crashes do reset the game and at random times so "fresh boots" can't be calculated and abused, a random spawn code or random boot code (say the game will boot anytime from 40+ hr uptime w/increasing probability, and imms can check to make sure no one will lose hrs of progress) can always be implemented.

Bugs exist and games will crash, and it should be *overlooked* as a part of playing a computerized game, I don't see how people can justify it and not even *consider* probable solutions.

It's not newbie friendly and while the older players may say that was part of life back then and accepted, it comes off as condescending to newer players who still need to eq and play in a different time.

Back then when it crashed there were tons of rares to be looked for still, and zone groups going on all the time, so big deal if it crashed during Jot, we can go back up there, and re-smite the other 10 zones that's already been done just 20 hrs into boot.

Now it's a measely 1 zone group/day, and a re-smite is usually not an option. Musp invasion loaded the other day, and it took 1 hr of waiting after it was found to get the group to smite it - would that have even been thought possible in the old days?

In the old days, even if you weren't a part of the action, you still felt as if you were b/c there was so many things going on. Now if you're not, it can just be plain boring... and even if you are part of the action and something like this happens, it just plain sucks, and yes, a waste of time, even more time if you died and now have to make up xp for nothing.

It breaks down to pbase, not dumbing down the game. Big pbase, zone crashes non-issue. Small pbase, zone crashes become a big deal.

P.S. As for the long times it takes evils to do zones, yes they can be done in shorter amount of time, but that hand-in-hand w/bringing up new talent and leaders. If future leaders are afraid MUD crashes b/c they are learning a zone, or it does while they are, then it will just discourage them more... and I thought the goal was to encourage new leaders/talent?
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Postby Lahgen » Wed Jul 26, 2006 10:56 pm

Oh god forbid this game is more entertainment and less work. :)
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:35 am

What I find humorous is that there's more posts in this thread than the 2.0 Discussion thread in this forum.

Oh and for what its worth - a persistant world immune to crashing with dynamic zone resets is certainly a long-term goal for the MUD. I don't like that the MUD crashes and resets anymore than you do, because it gives me less control over the game world that we're trying to balance. For now though, I'm concentrating on the gameplay.
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 12:55 am

*Tries to be the bigger man by not pointing out Shev just agreed with just about everything I was arguing for.*

*fails miserably*

Shevarash wrote:What I find humorous is that there's more posts in this thread than the 2.0 Discussion thread in this forum.


Well, all the changes sound good so far... not much for us to argue about. :)

Don't worry though, once you show us how rangers will work I'm sure we'll have lots to discuss. :P
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:04 am

Sarvis wrote:*Tries to be the bigger man by not pointing out Shev just agreed with just about everything I was arguing for.*

*fails miserably*

Shevarash wrote:What I find humorous is that there's more posts in this thread than the 2.0 Discussion thread in this forum.


Well, all the changes sound good so far... not much for us to argue about. :)

Don't worry though, once you show us how rangers will work I'm sure we'll have lots to discuss. :P



He agrees that there are far more important things to work on than the crash recovery crap, yup. :P

And Shev, the reason we have more posts here is, well because we have no new info, just what you've written so far :P We can only speculate. Post another preview, give us some new class/race or spellcaster info :P
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Postby Yasden » Thu Jul 27, 2006 1:54 am

Yeah, post the skills and specs for new monks! *nod me*
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Postby Sarvis » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:10 am

For the record, I never argued in favor of crash recovery code... just eliminating crashes in the first place like shev said, along with created improved systems for repopulating the MUD... also just as Shev said.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:29 am

It'd be great if larger zones had checkpoints. So if you were 50%-80% completed, you'd start at around 40% into the zone. Where you are 90% or final fighting in a zone, it could offer 2nd checkpoint to put your party at 75% finished.

To say that we play the mud rather than spend time with our families, then say 'Oh well, shit happens...'

You have nothing to show for a crash, except some players will be bitter. Some will be easy going. But for 3+ hours and nothing to show..damn, I sure would be bitter. If one spends time to mud rather than family time, at least if they spend it with family, there's something to show.

I'm really surprised some feel 'that's what happens' is an OK stance. You truly _spend_ your time on this mud. When you look back when you're all in your 70's and realize many of you spent WELL over 1 full year of your life, literally, mudding..damn, and a crash is ok because 'shit happens!' ? Erm, no...

Seelie crashes where you're at the queen, or Bel fights in BC. So many times it poofs at that point. What's to show?
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Postby Lahgen » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:53 am

And I really don't care about crashes too much. Hell, I'll take all the crashes in the world if it means we get human psi or monk. But I just couldn't let some of the attitudes I see in the thread go by unchallenged.
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Ifin » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:15 am

What I find humorous is it's not always just technical, time consuming enhancing aspects of gameplay that will have the most effect on players.

I agree code-wise as a priority it isn't worth the time spent/benefit.

Policy-wise I don't see why it isn't worth meriting a discussion even if a solution may be too complicated/political/not even implemented, or even just plain *empathy* w/the new times.

My only complaint on here has been we always hear about coding coding coding when other solutions that don't require coding but thought and policy/tweaking could have been implemented with far more efficient results (most recent glaring example, Musp Invasion).[/b]
Last edited by Ifin on Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Ambar » Thu Jul 27, 2006 7:17 am

maybe i watched my kids play crash bandicoot once too many times

i juts got an image of someone jumping up and hitting a block with their head which broke and turned into a checkpoint block

sigh
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Postby Lilira » Thu Jul 27, 2006 3:02 pm

Shevarash wrote:What I find humorous is that there's more posts in this thread than the 2.0 Discussion thread in this forum.


*grins* Hon did you add all the 2.0 threads together?? *laughs* You'd prolly get a much bigger number considering how many people have yelled at us for "crapping up the threads with speculation."

The mud as a whole is pretty dang stable folks. Just a question cus I haven't played MMORPGs in the high levels for raiding and stuff.. but if the world comes down around your ears in mid-raid (and I know it has), do they reset and reimb?

I think on EQ2 you were just screwed AND locked out. (Their customer service REALLY sucks.) I also know that EQ2 servers typically go down once a day M-F while they work out bugs. (Heh, sounds like Beta to me!!)

I'm only mentioning this because MMORPG comparisons have come up several times in this thread.
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