common pleveling methods

[Latreg]

Some good ideas there Bobo.

this is a bit off topic but, might be cool to have some npcs, you could play with some spanky gear so actual new people could see what the game can be like? People like spammy gear, things that proc....

[Lilira]

Oh yeah.. there's all the bloody XP grids ALL over the mud noone uses too.. why? Cus the mobs are all classless so do not give decent XP. I can only think of one that serves a better purpose and its the one by Ako with the crypt to practice find/disarm traps etc.

Wish we'd taken Cyric up on his ChP challenge... at least that would have been fixed. *chuckle*

[Gormal]

I wish Cyric would have taken our "fix ChP so we don't NEED 30 people to do it" challenge.

[Thilindel]

The time I did try going, some imms were observing. At least Jalahon kept trying. We got the living piss mowed out of us. It'd appear it's overwhelmingly too much at once. Wave, wave, wave. No time for regrouping.

[kiryan]

getting way off topic, but for CHP, brute force is obviously not going to work. Demon wave is obviously PWB candy as lots of hte mobs con < 50 and I don't remember seeing any priests.

[Ifin]

Getting off topic but I don't think we prepped as much for CHP as we should have.

Should have 15 who know zone in and out, and know where to go when leader says "group at west gate" "group at king" etc.

Props for Jalahon for leading it over and over though. Props to Dug for making to zone. !props to making rewards twinkable and making it so people think it's "not worth it" to do zone.

Let's change zone rewards, put it in news, and have CHP 2.0 again. It's such a badass zone, totally different than anything we have now, still an adrenaline rush each and every time, and tests everyone's *skills* in order to do.

[kiryan]

band aid solution... its not a solution in itself, just part of a bigger solution, regardless, I firmly believe pleveling is broken. Its broken from the standpoint that your "playing" the game in god mode.

Experienced people may make groups amongst themselves assing newbies out, but as its been said by several people, people will do whatever is the fastest. So if you make the low level group size target 10 for maximum exp, then you will see larger and larger low level groups.

The overall goal is for there to be something "fun" and engaging to do between 1 and 50. It should not be a mad race to 50 so you can begin to play the game. It should be fun and rewarding in itself to level a new character from 1 - 50. This is what will make the mud better especially for new people, not the simple fact of not having pleveling... but I can't see how you can have a game between 1 and 50 while you still have pleveling to 50 in 5 days.

--

The only kind of level restricted eq I would support is the kind where the "bonuses" you receive from wearing high level equipment are commensurate with your level. Your high level, you get high bonuses, your low level you get low bonuses. wear restrictions based on level are a cluster especially when it comes to "balance" and escalation over time. But again, I'd rather see the bonuses restricted at the character level. Your a 10th level warrior your level 50 eq could have 150 AC in bonuses but you can only get 50 AC from equipment... at 25 maybe you could wear 100 AC... your a 10th level mage you can only get 25 AC and 50 HP from equipment... ect ect ect.

No Drop / No transfer eq is I think a useful feature. It can be over done. I'm not as much of an advocate against getting gear for your alts as I am against plevel.

Your right, killing a level 1 mob teaches you nothing about the level 50 game today, but killing a level 15 mob at level 13 might start to resemble the level 50 game without pleveling. With scales haste and level 50 eq, i can destroy a level 15 mob at level 13, without those pleveling strategies, I would need a group or probably 10-15 minutes IF i could actually do it.

There is a problem with how the game is setup from 1-41... Speeding up/making exp easier is a bandaid for the problem from 1-41 and creates more momentum for the game to begin at 50 (since it takes even less effort to 50). To recreate the game from 1-41 we have to slow it down to create more opportunities for interaction and give the imms something to work with. We need to address pleveling, the primary reason 1-50 is 5 days instead of 15 days.

I don't necessarily want to see 1-50 take 15, 25, 50 days of ptime, but I could see leveling to 50 take 100 days and be something I want to do (eventually). I want to see 1-50 become something engaging, something you do for "fun", I don't think its possible to do it in 5 days which is where we are at from 1-50 now. The whole reason people are leveling characters is whack. We level characters not for "fun" but to have them available for zoning. Shouldn't leveling be fun? Shouldn't it be some kind of adventure or accomplishment? Why is it a grind?

Additionally, it seems strange to me that we want to make it easy and encourage people to stockpile character resources that they don't really want just so you can help make a group work (by playing the right alt)... This specific topic of why we level alts probably deserves more discussion, but not today.

--

Slowing down 1-50 isn't going to keep players here your right, but creating a game between 1-50 might give veteran players a new lease on life (from enjoying the leveling process instead of grinding it) and it may encourage more new people to stay (if we have new people, if we actually lose new people). All the rhetoric in various threads over the years has continuously pointed to a pbase that enjoys "challenge." If this is true, then since challenge is not exclusive to 50, we should be able to have "fun" doing a level 40 zone with level 40 characters. At a minimum though, maybe we can eliminate the "grind" which everyone thinks is boring...

As far as 1-11 being done in 3-4 hours... I don't know. It seems to me, that level is immaterial and that you should in the first 3 or 4 hours get a good sense of what playing here is like. With more sinister intentions of addicting you to the game, I'd want to see the following done in the first 1-4 hours.

1. accomplished something in levels (after 2 hours if you accomplished level 5, but a pleveled alt has gone from 1-20, how do you feel?)
2. accomplished something in equipping your character (whether by spells or swords)
3. accomplished something "fun". Whether thats a quest or a small group fighting a higher level mob/zone.
4. experienced plenty of "new" stuff.
5. You interacted with at least 2 people (the more the better)

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"How do you take away the advantage of playing here for 10 years in hopes that newer players will benefit? Where's the value of a PLAYER if their knowledge is wasted when they start anew?"

Wll I'll start off by saying that the advantage of playing here for 10 years goes far beyond how fast you plevel. Your advantages are in knowledge of the mud and in relationships with other people that you can call upon to aid you. Your advantage is also that you don't have any equipment needs; as you level up, your cap raises and you get more of the benefits from your high level equipment. With the pleveling changes I suggest, you will undoubtedly lose significant advantage over newbies in leveling... but is that what your after... another level 50 character?

As far as I can tell, a majority of people state that they level new characters so they can help groups form (time for a new poll). Few people want to miss out on a zone group or are so locked into their character that they won't play anything else. I leveled the first 8 or so of my characters so that I could play anything a group was missing (now I level them just to have them). Most of us probably would prefer playing 1 or 2 characters, our "favorite" character and an alt for "fun", but we are gripped in alt fever in face of a declining pbase so that we can zone. How many of us have lost sight of what fun can be had experiencing the game from different classes over the overwhelming desire to get more eq? There has been an insidious change in the game / attitude over the years.

So to really answer your first question, I'll say this. Pleveling is the least of the advantages you received from playing here 10 years and the current size of the advantage is far too large. My hope is not that new players will benefit from slowing down exp, but that we will all benefit in terms of enjoying leveling our alts from 1-50 instead of grinding, and having more people to adventure with assuming the change affects newbie retention positively. I fall short of saying anything for the newbie, but when a newbie stays we all gain something whether its someone to zone with, or someone to be better than.

The second question is easy to answer. None of the pleveling suggestions I make waste your knowledge. Your knowledge doesn't affect your pleveling rate.

---

"I'd suggest changing classes to spec at level 20ish, and focus on making the 1-20 game about learning the basic mechanics of the engine. Make it fairly quick and engaging. Make sure they know they are learning things they need to know later on etc. Right now, I think most people could sleep through the first 40 or so levels and start learning at 41 and do fairly well. "

Various forms of this have been done and suggested. I personally like it to some degree if it fits the game well. This could be part of recreating the 1-50 game, but doesn't have to. Your absolutely right in that what you learn of your class in low levels (if anything) is wasted. Enchanters get stone at 21, so they are literally wasting their time from 1-20. Clerics may get cure light at level 1, but at 20 seconds to pray a cure that heals as much as 30 seconds of resting or 3-4 rounds with a mob...

We do need to recreate the 1-50 game, but I don't believe this is possible or even necessary if we are going to make leveling to 50 take even less time than 5 days.

[Tasan]

Experienced people may make groups amongst themselves assing newbies out, but as its been said by several people, people will do whatever is the fastest. So if you make the low level group size target 10 for maximum exp, then you will see larger and larger low level groups.

Groups of 10 people aren't going to be effective as a group of 5 people even IF you reduce the penalty for more people involved. Mobs die faster, there's less overall exp to share for the group and it gets done faster than pop so everyone waits around...

The overall goal is for there to be something "fun" and engaging to do between 1 and 50. It should not be a mad race to 50 so you can begin to play the game. It should be fun and rewarding in itself to level a new character from 1 - 50. This is what will make the mud better especially for new people, not the simple fact of not having pleveling... but I can't see how you can have a game between 1 and 50 while you still have pleveling to 50 in 5 days.

This is all arguing semantics. If the game were truly engaging at lower levels you'd wouldn't see so much pleveling. Everyone knows that from 16-31 the game grinds down to a slower-than-molasses-in-january pace.

But again, I'd rather see the bonuses restricted at the character level.

W/ or w/o race taken into account? This would make some races even more handicapped vs. others. That result never helps any new players since they don't know which races are particularly powerful at the beginning.

No Drop / No transfer eq is I think a useful feature. It can be over done. I'm not as much of an advocate against getting gear for your alts as I am against plevel.

Implement this, and I will find something better to do w/ my time. Watching the same 15 people zone constantly to outfit their 5 alts a piece already has me wondering how much longer I want to play, yet you suggest making it practically a part of the game.

With scales haste and level 50 eq, i can destroy a level 15 mob at level 13, without those pleveling strategies, I would need a group or probably 10-15 minutes IF i could actually do it.

There's nothing stopping a level 50 person from helping out a new player in the same manner. I don't see how spellups detract from the experience had as much as you. Frankly I loved logging in my ranger early on in my time here and having someone come along out of the blue and give me a few spells to play with for a few minutes. It got me to try things I couldn't "normally" do, and to figure out some of the higher level game. Isn't that really what reducing the grind is all about?

There is a problem with how the game is setup from 1-41... Speeding up/making exp easier is a bandaid for the problem from 1-41 and creates more momentum for the game to begin at 50 (since it takes even less effort to 50).

Now you aren't even reading what I posted. I didn't say make 1-41 easier. I said make 1-20 easy, 21-31 slow but steady, 32-41 moderately difficult, 41-46 difficult and 46-50 very difficult. And while keeping those things in mind, restore zoning experience to actually mean something.

You stated that dying isn't even really a detriment nowadays. I have to disagree. I've hovered at or around level 50 for about 2 straight months now. I don't typically have time to sit and solo mobs for experience, and I surely don't have 2 friends always available at my playtimes to help me. Do I want to spend all my time doing xp? No. I play a fairly necessary class mostly, and that class is so important that we get the utter shaft for an experience table/damage xp. Dying is rather important to me, and although there are plenty of things I can do to minimize my risk, that's not the way I want to play. I like being one of the last 4 in izan's trying to save a total spank. I don't typically play things safe, because safe is as boring as grinding.

Just because the classes that level faster would gain more from zone experience being rediscovered, it doesn't mean death would be meaningless. Make those classes that have an easier time gaining experience have tables to reflect that. Everyone knows a rogue dying is no real loss for a reason.

I don't necessarily want to see 1-50 take 15, 25, 50 days of ptime, but I could see leveling to 50 take 100 days and be something I want to do (eventually). I want to see 1-50 become something engaging, something you do for "fun", I don't think its possible to do it in 5 days which is where we are at from 1-50 now. The whole reason people are leveling characters is whack. We level characters not for "fun" but to have them available for zoning. Shouldn't leveling be fun? Shouldn't it be some kind of adventure or accomplishment? Why is it a grind?

A) It's a grind because damage dealing classes level on the average 1.5-2x faster than their counterparts(if not faster).

B) To gain positive experience, you need to do fairly SAFE things in a zone that pops fairly quickly and is designed to minimize your risk(see DS).

C) Experience still boils down to repetitive commands. If I'm too low level to scale, I'm stoning. Once I get blur, I'm constantly casting it for the rest of the game. Haste? That too, because god knows rogues don't gain experience fast enough as it is.

D) Adventure and accomplishment come from doing things that take skill, not repetitive actions over time. Experience gain in and of itself is contrary to fun right now.

As far as I'm concerned, Corth(among others) was correct in his thought that invokers and enchanters be rolled back into the sorcerer class. If you gave warriors back some balls, I don't see why sorcerers wouldn't be able to do as well as they once did.

Slowing down 1-50 isn't going to keep players here your right, but creating a game between 1-50 might give veteran players a new lease on life (from enjoying the leveling process instead of grinding it) and it may encourage more new people to stay (if we have new people, if we actually lose new people).

Might, or it might force the majority of them to go somewhere else. Veteran players are mostly the ones who don't have time to waste spending 100 days getting to 50 anymore. Those days are long done for some. You want to push more people away to appease some imaginary goal of making vets play with noobs. THAT is a band-aid.

As far as 1-11 being done in 3-4 hours... I don't know. It seems to me, that level is immaterial and that you should in the first 3 or 4 hours get a good sense of what playing here is like. With more sinister intentions of addicting you to the game, I'd want to see the following done in the first 1-4 hours.

1. accomplished something in levels (after 2 hours if you accomplished level 5, but a pleveled alt has gone from 1-20, how do you feel?)

Well if 1-20 meant less to the game and more to the player, I wouldn't feel badly at all. I actually thought it was fun to race against other people, it is the same argument that goes for artifacts et al. Some people thrive on competition, some want the game handed to them. Which do you want playing?

2. accomplished something in equipping your character (whether by spells or swords)
3. accomplished something "fun". Whether thats a quest or a small group fighting a higher level mob/zone.
4. experienced plenty of "new" stuff.
5. You interacted with at least 2 people (the more the better)

All possible in doing 1-20 in an area like scardale. Scardale needs to be expanded upon IMO. It needs to be a bit more immersive. The fountain is a great concept, but could use some other random spells as well. Why not have the fountain full heal once in a great while? Why not have it room haste once or twice a day? Is the benefit to a level 5 going to ruin the game? I hardly think so. Scardale is one of the zones that I think could really benefit from having some xp quest rewards that help you learn the game. Collect the heads of the orc leaders and return them Khelvos, bam, 50% of level 10. Shrug. I don't see why speeding up 1-20 hurts the newbie and helps the pleveler. They are levels that the veteran knows are useless to them(they know all they need to know about that) and the new player is busy learning(hopefully).

Wll I'll start off by saying that the advantage of playing here for 10 years goes far beyond how fast you plevel. Your advantages are in knowledge of the mud and in relationships with other people that you can call upon to aid you. Your advantage is also that you don't have any equipment needs; as you level up, your cap raises and you get more of the benefits from your high level equipment. With the pleveling changes I suggest, you will undoubtedly lose significant advantage over newbies in leveling... but is that what your after... another level 50 character?

By the time you are level 31 in my system, the eq you are wearing starts to mean less and less. You are far more dependant on spells etc. So perhaps this will all be moot in the 2.0 game. Maybe in 2.0 equipment will be so damned important that people can't even get to a higher level until they can find better stuff... wouldn't that be "engaging"?

How many of us have lost sight of what fun can be had experiencing the game from different classes over the overwhelming desire to get more eq? There has been an insidious change in the game / attitude over the years.

I agree completely. However, I still believe pleveling is an effect of a boring game at lower levels. I see no reason to really tie it to a problem with the playerbase in general.

So to really answer your first question, I'll say this. Pleveling is the least of the advantages you received from playing here 10 years and the current size of the advantage is far too large.

Again, pleveling is an effect of the game on players, not an advantage of the vet.

The second question is easy to answer. None of the pleveling suggestions I make waste your knowledge. Your knowledge doesn't affect your pleveling rate.

If I level slower because there are caps on the hard-earned equipment, you are wasting the knowledge/time I have gained/put in to the game previously. Your suggestion of reducing the overall benefit of equipment is fairly rediculous to me. Even at a reduction, all equipment of higher overall value is going to blow away lower level stuff, not to mention you will be able to cheaply come up with an entire set than just a few pieces. So you still have a huge advantage over the new player, you still level faster etc. You just don't do it as fast as now... And as I said, it's an effect of how the game mechanics work right now. I mean if you want to make that small of a dent, tie everyone's characters to an email address and give all their alts -10% experience... really.

We do need to recreate the 1-50 game, but I don't believe this is possible or even necessary if we are going to make leveling to 50 take even less time than 5 days.

I don't recall ever saying it should take 5 days. I just said 1-20 should have you feeling good enough to come back tomorrow and try for 22.

[kiryan]

tasan

I don't think were connecting very well on the points, i doubt I did a much better job with this next tirade. I feel you misread me in places, and you made the comment that I misread you.

Most likely we are confused because I am assuming you understand what my complete vision (part of which is in the other two threads on exp I made) where eliminating pleveling is just a part of the overall scheme. I thought I could justify eliminating plevel solely based on the concept that your 1. not playing the game your grinding, 2. devaluing characters, and 3. your playing the low level game in god mode (with level 50 eq/spells/help).

but anyways here i go again =). Im out of time so im gonna post this up imperfect as im sure it is.

1. you could make the target group 10 by increasing the "group exp" bonus enough to make a 10 man group ideal.


2. people are going to do whats fastest. Even if the low level game was fun and engaging, they are going to plevel if its faster because they are focused on high end zoning.


3. I don't know if bonuses should or should not consider race. My initial feeling is that they should to highlight the difference in races for the newbie, but level is clearly the more important of the two.


4. I am not advocating !drop !transfer eq in general, we could use this feature for quests and very sparingly for high end eq, but it would be a big mistake imo to use it to prevent people from equipping alts with high level gear.


5. I don't think I follow you, but let me try and respond. A spell or two once in a while is ok. pleveling you for 2 hours is not good imo. Reducing the grind is getting away from 10,000 kill orc by yourself or with a 2 or 3 in DS.


6. I didn't say dying isnt a detriment these days. If we upgrade trophy and reduce exp tables to the point that in general you come out of a "hard" eq zone with more experience, then the "risk" is gone. And yes, some classes exp slower than others and I hope shev addresses that, but thats not what im trying to discuss really.


7A. its a grind because you kill the same mobs over and over in the same way with no intermediary objectives like completing a quest or a zone, just a straight climb to 50.


7B. to gain positive experience, the amount of exp you gain from the activity needs to in general be more than the amount you lose. If you design a hard newbie zone that kills the group of 5 off 5 times each and award them 10 deaths worth of exp, they will gain exp.


If your talking about exp today, positive exp gain is find something that is predictable and safe then grind it as long as you can. Not necessarily the best exp per kill/hour, just the safest and most convenient exp (smoke and DS are uber convenient because its easy to get replacements to your group).


7C. Experience today boils down to repetitive commands, to some degree this never changes even when you zone, but I hope that we can start seeing more "zone" and "quest" oriented exp methods in the future. When I say zone, I'm thinking maybe something like a group of 5 level 15 players attacking Split Shield and getting a level worth of experience for "beating" the zone.


7D. I agree that experience gain is contrary to fun right now. There is no adventure and accomplishment is all you do is strive for the next level from 1-50. Levels should be a consequence of completing other actions rather than an end unto its own. I'd rather see people getting levels for exploring or completing zones and quests than for killing their 400th forest giant.


8. So what happens when the veteran players get tired of grinding their 10th alt or finish grinding an alt of every class? Your going to lose people when they exhaust content and have nothing to do just as you will lose people who decide they aren't having fun anymore. Leveling faster is just going to help these people "win" the game faster. Are we going to cater to the people who want to have 1 of every class or cater to the people who want to actually play and experience the game instead of racking up a certain combination of alts/equipment?


I completely disagree, making vets play with noobs is the key to long term success. Its harder to break away from relationships than it is to simply quit a game. Now Im not saying making vets hand hold is the key to success, but getting more person to person interaction is good, especially at low level since majority of low level characters today are alts of veterans.


9. I'd agree that its possible to do in scardale. Its funny that you cite scardale since it virtually eliminates all but the "high level equipment" methods of pleveling. I fully support building on the work already done in scardale. But why go hang out in scardale when you can get 1-20 in 2 hours being pleveled (as a mage)? Can you imagine how fast you could get 1-20 if they reduce exp tables? Im a bit more hestiant supporting the idea of fountain giving out high level spells for free... id rather see the players able to accomplish more with their class skills rather than relying on a fountain for surrogate group members or skills they don't have.


10. I'm not sure what system your talkign about, I'll go look for it later, out of time for today.


11. That may be, hard to say which is the chicken and which is the egg. Either way the game hyperfocused on level 50 zoning is not good in general if you ask me.


12. You asked "How do you take away the advantage of playing here for 10 years in hopes that newer players will benefit? Where's the value of a PLAYER if their knowledge is wasted when they start anew?"

I guess I didn't quite answer your first question, I justified taking away plevel by saying that its the least of the advantages you should have and that the advantage is inappropriately large.

I may agree that pleveling is an effect of the game on the player, but I don't see how that means we should continue to allow pleveling.

13. Your investment in equipment is not wasted simply beacuse you can't get maximum benefit out of wearing it on a level 1 character. you still have the equipment you can still wear it anywhere. Its only wasted if thats the only reason you went to get that piece of equipment, to put it on a low level alt. In the future, you won't get high level gear expressly for leveling alts because you won't need it until you get to high level.

I don't understand why bonuses restricted by level won't bring more parity to the stats of newbies and high level characters. If a level 10 char can only get the bonus for a total of 50 ac from equipment he only has to get 3 ac in each of what 22 equipment slots? If its 100 ac at 20, thats 4 or 5 ac per slot? If you make it relatively easy for a newbie to continually hit his equipped "stat" caps then "eq" pleveling is virtually gone even if the level 1 is walking around with level 50 eq. Furthermore, you bring more parity to the strength of the characters vs the strength of the mobs they are fighting. Level 50 equipment destroys a level 10 mob currently period. Under a stat restriction by level system, level 50 equipment would still mean your fighting a level 10 mob at roughly your "level".

14. 5 days is how long it takes to plevel to 50. Individual experience is different depending on class and how much "support" you get from friends. The common time to 50 for a true newbie without help is probably closer to 15-25 days.

[Mirlantharn]

Another idea from homelands, all mages start out as a generic mage and level to 10 then quest their class. This problem of playing the game affects the 1-20 caster game the most because of lack of keystone spells and group unfriendly mem times.

Sorry for the late response upon this one.

Kiryan, I actually liked the ability to decide my proficiency school (or lack thereof). I thought it a major benefit to the mage classes at the time.
What I'll agree with you about is the mem times. They were/are horrible still. My disappointment with the Homeland mage situation was that the spells were not totally well thought out. Depending upon which school you decided upon, you suddenly found yourself without half of the spells you had up to that point. Doubly worse, your spellbooks were filled with spells that you couldn't cast, and couldn't get rid of their pages.
With the Erase spell, the last issue remains: You end up with a blank spellbook and having to rescribe spells you retained, in either case.
It would have been so much simplier to just be granted the common spells only for all schools, and narrow down the situation upon recieving the next spell circle, or something like that.

Mirlantharn

[flib]

jeez.. cant you guys surmise yer ideas into a couple sentances :P cuz im not tryin to read f'in war and peace bejezus.. long posts.

[Mirlantharn]

Flib,

Sorry bud, but my mind doesn't work that way.

Kiryan,

I'll actually agree with you on almost every point on your post before last.

Mirlantharn

[moritheil]

I don't agree with abolishing pleveling. My reasoning is simple:

In order to be pleveled as a noob, someone else has to plevel you.

This means that even if you aren't learning about the game, you ARE interacting with others. Human interaction is the basis of pbase retention. Furthermore, if you are truly a newbie and do not know anyone else, you have to be a pretty convincing talker to cause someone else to spend time pleveling you. The most plausible scenario involves you convincing them that for some reason they should care about your welfare. And if they DO care at all about your welfare, they'll tell you things that you should be watching while they plevel you. Generally people discuss aspects of the game while grinding XP even if there aren't any newbies in the group. Further, once you've been pleveled, you now have an investment in the game - you have an edge, something you attained more cheaply than others. This gives you an incentive to play again to capitalize on that edge.

In short, I find the assumption that pleveling is always bad to be flawed, at least in terms of the pleveling of newbies.

[Tasan]

In order to be pleveled as a noob, someone else has to plevel you.

This discussion is purely about established players pleveling alts and basically ignoring the newbie.

[Gormal]

We could always have more multi days so I could plvl myself!

[Rented]

excuse me for bringing old topics back up but shouldn't we have kiryan do the menzo drowbies thing? I think he's finally reached a point where he has everything and needs a change. Any rich person who is bored with life can always be stripped of everything to be made humble. Talking about eq wise...if I spent 2 - 5 years time questing for a khanjari...i damn well should be able to use it with any other characters even if it is level 1. Kiryan...all this posted isn't against you, just your idea, so don't take it personal. I find the mud to be fine the way it is. If the noob decides to be pleveled...by all means...plevel...I'm sure you know they will lack the skills and experience needed to play a high level character in a zone. We all still have a will. As for me playing my characters are...warriors/rogues = no pleveling...all solo xp and casters solo when no one to group. You do have to ask yourself this also...we LACK a lot of classes to complete a group for zoning half the time. Anyway...have a good day =)