Ugh. Ridiculous!

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Imrex
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Ugh. Ridiculous!

Postby Imrex » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:09 am

Hey all. Just some quick background info:

I played a lot in the 90s, quit when EQ came out, and came back a few months ago. The gameplay feels the same, but there are serious problems as I see things.

First, we don't have the 200+ people online at all times anymore, so finding groups between lvls 20 and 40 is nigh impossible.

Secondly, since it's hard to get groups, you kind of have to play a solo-able class in order to progress. I got a few characters to 25-ish before realizing it would be too tough & slow to continue on that path - warriors and rogues and clerics are great, but it's too damn slow when you're soloing 95% of the time.

So, I've spent the past 3-ish months wallowing around in indecision. Finally, I decided I'd play a shaman. They can solo, buff, stone, heal, do a little damage, etc etc etc.

I checked the "who" lists one day, and realized that there were 4 or 5 or 6 "goodie" shamen online at one point, but that there were far fewer evilrace shammies. Perfect! Play a soloable class that will be in demand at higher levels. Sounds good, huh?

Well, anyway, I slogged my way to just-about-lvl 20, and got ready to do the totem quest. After asking around for a few hours, I was told where I could find the blood-smeared ogre. I eventually found him & he gave the "you need some purple mushrooms" speech. Cool. Finding the forest, however, proved difficult.

I began asking around to just about every shammy I saw over the course of 10 hours, and it was... well... interesting. First, I was directed to an area near Ako. An hour of searching was fruitless. Next, a different person had me searching the area SE of Baldur's Gate. I actually spent two hours down there because it seemed eerily familiar to the area I searched as a goodie shaman back in 1997 or so. No luck.

Next, I was directed to an area south of SS (i.e., the "new" SS). Another couple of hours, and I was ready to give up. This was maybe 2 hours ago, waaaay past my bedtime. Then I ran into some people who directed me to Nightwood, where (presumably) the mushroom is actually located. I wandered around for 30 minutes, and all of a sudden.... SMACK SMACK, minotaur kills me before I can blink.

Now, to my point: I understand that evil race characters "face adversity" and are for "advanced players" only... but... given the limited pbase and the low level of the quest, is that really necessary? Should it be THAT hard? Especially coming from Ghore.... I mean, fighting past paralyzing vines, having to spend 30 minutes to make the walk, and BAM BAM dying that fast?

I'm now faced with the loss of every piece of equipment I've worked to obtain over the past 3 months, I still have no idea if the information I've been given is accurate, and.... well... what else? Actually, I

I don't even want to play anymore. I just wasted about 10 hours today, gained nothing, lost everything, and... uh... why again? Blah!

Anyway. It was nice playing again. I hope you guys have fun with 2.0. Just.... you know.... make it more accessible to people who aren't experts and/or twinked out the ass. Seriously. In order to build up the pbase, you should absolutely make it easier for people to "break in," as it were.

~ Axom (19, then 18, then 17 lvl shaman after all of the CR attempts)
Imrex (29 anti)

taffastrophe@yahoo.com
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:33 am

Exploring dangerous areas past your bedtime is not, was never, and will never be a good idea. What exactly did you expect to happen wandering around alone in areas you obviously knew nothing about with an expired time limit and no backup for corpse retrival?

Your perception of the quest's difficulty is far less of an issue than your lack of preparation.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Nov 21, 2006 12:43 pm

I told you to be careful, that it was a tracker that hits like a truck :(

Shalia

think I was on as Alieshi

I am the one who directed you to Nightwood .. told you low level aggros and about the Minotaur.

I do have to agree it is a LOT harder than the goodie ones to find .. but I did find them with my little baby orc shaman a few months ago alone and managed to live to tell of it
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Auril
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Postby Auril » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:35 pm

Hi,

As the Nightwood's writer, I'd like to address this question directly.

The mushrooms had been in the region before, when it was called the Svalich Woods. There had been a minotaur there before, although it was less challenging. The wood itself had been more difficult to navigate, and although I aimed to create a maze, there are not as many one-way exits, and you can generally find the way out by traveling in a certain direction.

Finally, about the mushrooms, there is a trick which makes it almost easy to obtain them. You need to know more about the Nightwood's properties, and I'm not sure anyone really understands what it does yet - but when it's discovered, the mushrooms will be incredibly easy to find. It was established as such because it *is* a challenge to trot around in there, back and forth. The minotaur is a minotaur now.
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Postby Drache » Tue Nov 21, 2006 6:35 pm

In all fairness, why do shammies have to quest at such a low level, and ele's get unlimited with no quest at all?
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Postby Minofagal » Tue Nov 21, 2006 7:31 pm

or you could just make ellie's have to have components to summon elementals :P
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Re: Ugh. Ridiculous!

Postby Tasan » Tue Nov 21, 2006 11:03 pm

Imrex wrote:I still have no idea if the information I've been given is accurate


To my knowledge that particular piece can be found in several locations depending on where it decided to load that particular time. So having several people tell you different locations might be attributable to that.

Personally I think the Nightwood is conceptually very cool, but in regards to someone attempting to find a 21st level quest piece, it's a bit dangerous. Yes there are ways to avoid certain dangers within the forest and by Auril's own admission a way to obtain the piece in question even more simply, however how much time do we expect a 21st level player to have to put in to solve this particular quest?

It took me literally about 20 hours before I understood a fair bit of how the area worked. I wouldn't even dream of claiming to understand all the nuances there. I think the main point of this post was pointing out the sad reality of an age-old quest that was never reviewed and rewritten in light of the many changes over the years.

It's pretty sad to see someone lose interest in a game because of a general lack of consistent review of changes and their impacts on all aspects of the game.
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Postby Lilira » Wed Nov 22, 2006 12:52 am

BTW.. found your corpse.. Died twice myself to the horny monster cus of my own stupidty on the first one and bad luck on the second.. its only about two rooms into the heart portion of the Nightwoods.

Oh and someone prezed it
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Obviously

Postby hagah » Sat Nov 25, 2006 4:49 pm

Its funny that the moment someone complains the game is too hard 3-4 people jump on them telling them ohhh, obviously you should have done it THIS way.

What a load of crap, all you power players (anyone who still plays) must realize you cannot have much of a life and enjoy playing this game. With the pbase size as it is, you all should do the right thing and just quit playing and force the gods to do something to make the game enjoyable to play. As it is this place is BROKE, and grasping at straws is just pathetic.

bye bye!
Hagah
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Re: Obviously

Postby Ambar » Sat Nov 25, 2006 6:01 pm

hagah wrote:Its funny that the moment someone complains the game is too hard 3-4 people jump on them telling them ohhh, obviously you should have done it THIS way.

What a load of crap, all you power players (anyone who still plays) must realize you cannot have much of a life and enjoy playing this game. With the pbase size as it is, you all should do the right thing and just quit playing and force the gods to do something to make the game enjoyable to play. As it is this place is BROKE, and grasping at straws is just pathetic.

bye bye!


LOL most of us all said it was too hard :)

Disgruntled much? :)

Have a coke and a smile!
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Mirlantharn
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Postby Mirlantharn » Mon Dec 11, 2006 9:31 am

Sometimes there's something to be said for solving a harder problem than an easier one: there's more enjoyment out of it.
Whom would like to strut around declaring that they just solved the problem of opening up a jar of baby food, as opposed to being able to put back together an automobile engine?

Granted, we have been saying that there are times that the hints upon the mud are occassionally way too vague or even non-existant and need some modification.

But that is what this entire forum on the BBS is designed for, right?

Truthfully, things have gotten a LOT easier than when I first started playing 9 years ago.

Mirlantharn
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Dec 11, 2006 3:16 pm

And yet, Toril is still about a zillion times harder than most popular RPGs today. There is a very distinct line between challenge and frustration. A game that struggles to maintain its player base should be more focused on providing fun than bone-crunching difficulty.

How much fun is it to have to assemble a car engine with no instructions before you get access to your class's primary feature?
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:09 am

Ragorn wrote:And yet, Toril is still about a zillion times harder than most popular RPGs today. There is a very distinct line between challenge and frustration. A game that struggles to maintain its player base should be more focused on providing fun than bone-crunching difficulty.

How much fun is it to have to assemble a car engine with no instructions before you get access to your class's primary feature?


Rut Roh! You'd better watch saying that! You'll have a pair of boobs accusing you of castrating the mud, snipping it's balls off, and ..oh what's the point. Then they'll start bitching each time you post. haha.
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Dec 13, 2006 2:13 pm

Thilindel wrote:Rut Roh! You'd better watch saying that! You'll have a pair of boobs accusing you of castrating the mud, snipping it's balls off, and ..oh what's the point. Then they'll start bitching each time you post. haha.

Yes, I know there are a lot of people on Toril who want the game to remain hard for them, on their 7th twinked alt. And to some extent, it should... there should be a challenge present within the game for veteran players. But there are certain areas of the game (and I think unlocking core class features is one of them) that should be somewhat transparent.

When you have a relatively new player who comes to the board to present his frustration with an overly obscure, difficult, and mandatory quest, I'm not sure the correct thing to do is whine about castrating the MUD.
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Dec 13, 2006 3:53 pm

The one thing that astonishes me about this post is the surprise and rage the poster feels because he died when wandering around. It's not the fact that he feels these emotions; it's the fact that he's feeling them at around level 20. I have to wonder if he got lucky and never died wandering around earlier, or if (as I suspect) he never had to wander around earlier and thus wasn't exposed to the danger of wandering agros. If that's the case, we should put more opportunities for sudden death in newbie zones to get people used to it, along with explanations that dying now and then is normal.

It's quite possible that a warning should be a part of the into process, but from the comment Imrex made, it seems that there is actually a warning that the world is a dangerous place. Perhaps it's too understated? We may want to spell it out: "Toril is a massive simulated world. You cannot expect to only face challenges at your own level. If you take a wrong turn and run into a huge monster, you WILL die. Tread lightly."

Or perhaps, "Toril as a whole is not designed for solo play. Solo exploring without any backup is therefore taking your life into your own hands."

Or maybe this.

Now, whether the blame lies with the pbase size, the player, the constellations, or whatever, I leave to others to comment on.
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Postby Birile » Wed Dec 13, 2006 4:38 pm

moritheil wrote:The one thing that astonishes me about this post is the surprise and rage the poster feels because he died when wandering around. It's not the fact that he feels these emotions; it's the fact that he's feeling them at around level 20. I have to wonder if he got lucky and never died wandering around earlier, or if (as I suspect) he never had to wander around earlier and thus wasn't exposed to the danger of wandering agros. If that's the case, we should put more opportunities for sudden death in newbie zones to get people used to it, along with explanations that dying now and then is normal.

It's quite possible that a warning should be a part of the into process, but from the comment Imrex made, it seems that there is actually a warning that the world is a dangerous place. Perhaps it's too understated? We may want to spell it out: "Toril is a massive simulated world. You cannot expect to only face challenges at your own level. If you take a wrong turn and run into a huge monster, you WILL die. Tread lightly."

Or perhaps, "Toril as a whole is not designed for solo play. Solo exploring without any backup is therefore taking your life into your own hands."

Or maybe this.

Now, whether the blame lies with the pbase size, the player, the constellations, or whatever, I leave to others to comment on.


My first thought upon reading your post, Mori, was "Scardale." Everyone knows you level to 20 in Scardale (for quick level progression early on) and then enter the world. I'm not saying Scardale is too easy. I'm saying the discrepancy between Scardale and the "real" world of Toril is worth taking a look at. :)
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Dec 13, 2006 6:00 pm

I think one thing that would help truly new players is if your corpse popped with you at your guild when you are under level 25. I understand there 'should' be challenge. But, there's a new player I've recently helped ..a lot, that had sit under level 10 for two full days of playtime. That's not progression in my books.
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Postby Minofagal » Wed Dec 13, 2006 8:35 pm

moritheil wrote:Or perhaps, "Toril as a whole is not designed for solo play. Solo exploring without any backup is therefore taking your life into your own hands."


i sooooo wouldn't put a statement like this in, cause when a new player reads this, logs on and can't find a group there is nothing left for them to consider or think about. Except whether to rent, quit, or LD and find somewhere else.
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