Strategy vrs. Brute Force

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Ifin
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Strategy vrs. Brute Force

Postby Ifin » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:24 am

So we just did manscorps/seers with a small group, took some strategy thinking about the zone and also a lot of time, 5 hrs.

However we were told that it was going to be changed b/c it took advantage of an unintentioned design.

I dunno, I just wanna put it out there that I don't think everytime it's found to be "easier" to do something, then it should always be changed, esp. looking at risk and time. Especially w/pbase so low, isn't it better to find ways to do stuff w/o always needing 15 people?

Especially older zones with sub-par eq. My reasoning is if there's only one opportunity at most to zone a day, why would we do old zones at all? This is from a player's perspective.

But if imms just want to change it so we NEED 15 players even though our pbase is like 30 on a good day, then you'll just see more people sit around WD bored. Everyone had a good time here today, and it's not like we restricted the group small on purpose - if I could have gotten 15, I would've loved to full smite it.

Just rambling.
Eilistraee
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:42 am

I have nothing against strategy; for instance the popular opinion was that Sarell's time-saving strategy in Tiamat would be changed after the first run. I not only complimented him and the group on it, I also recommended that it not be modified. It wasn't a hard sell either, every staff member I talked to about it was on board with how clever it was.

The fact that a big bad mob cannot figure out what to do with a little 150 hitpoint horse is standing in its way is a flaw in AI. That is the aspect that will be corrected; the zone itself won't change.

I'll allow the news entry to speak for itself.
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Postby Auril » Tue Dec 19, 2006 3:54 am

I have to assume that there is an idea that these things aren't discussed. Very little happens in a vacuum, and the suggestion that I'd heard proposed by those who had been in the group was simply too hard-handed and didn't fit with the idea of the zone. There will be a fix, and it won't be hard-handed.
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Postby Ifin » Tue Dec 19, 2006 4:14 am

Yes I see how it's ridiculous from a purely "realistic" fashion.

But to me to open up something new for a group of people to do w/same time/risk as a full group, sometimes the means might justifies the end.

The end is to provide a mid-size group w/something to do for 3-5 hrs, when there only alternative is the sit around.

Otherwise any way to get a new fix like limited multi? Shrugs.

Again it was retorted my way of thinking was that's "why I wasn't an imm" <- even though I never even thought/applied/or wanted to be one. Though again, I'd ask, how about requiring imms to play their morts for a few days, through idling and all and try to get groups? My response was the way things are is probably because imms aren't players.

But please remove all 1-way rooms from the MUD though. It should've been obvious that their only purpose would be to something "non-legitimate" by now then.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Dec 19, 2006 9:51 am

Don't want to hijack the thread, but anyone that know what happened to the old 3west cartoons?
http://umbra.excidium.net/3west/ (link broken).

There was a cartoon illustrating the horsething and explaining it in detail why it works. See, demons can't recline, so neither can manscorps.

Personally I don't mind zonechanges to prevent tricks like that beeing used. The only thing that annoys me are those places where changes makes CR too annoying.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:29 am

Single-file rooms have become a much more prevelant tool for the strategist in recent years. Far too often, they're added into zones for no real reason other than the area's creator trying to mirror the room's "actual" size. There's always been serious problems with the way that the smallest grasshopper can impede the most powerful flying dragon, but I think that's where the problem stops.

The concept behind trapping a group in a single-file room is and should remain a viable strategy. I don't see a reason why for instance; a group could wait in hiding adjacent to a tunnel while a scout draws an a group of foes past their comrades and into a narrow tunnel, then magically transporting/sneaking back to the group and striking them from the rear. Using a cute little pony as an impenetrable wall however, shouldn't work.

I for one, hope that single-file rooms are left alone in favor of changes to mob AI improvements. I'm sure there are things that could be done based on room size and mob size as well, but the gameplay aspect of single-file rooms doesn't strike me as a game-breaking feature so long as the area is written well.

As far as the staff changing areas as players find new and more creative ways of conquering zones... I think thats defintely a case-by-case issue that can't be fairly judged on a large scale. Rather than adressing the problem of zone loopholes, more emphasis should be placed on the lack of experienced players finding these features before the area moves onto the main MUD.

Perhaps some sort of rotating playtester policy could be looked at. That might give players like Sarell or Ifin the chance to test a couple of zones out, without crippling the MUD's desperate need for good leaders to bring us through them in practice.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Dec 19, 2006 12:27 pm

Ifin wrote:.... Though again, I'd ask, how about requiring imms to play their morts for a few days, through idling and all and try to get groups? My response was the way things are is probably because imms aren't players.


I'd be willing to bet at least one immort was in that group who zones most every day ...
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Thilindel
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Postby Thilindel » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:09 pm

Speaking of zones, just the other day I was bored and looked at the list of zones. Noticing that Dragonspear Castle was a zone I'd never even heard of..not to mention I've played semi-frequently since 1995. Asking around, only one person knew of the zone, stating it had 'ok eq.' It'd be nice if there were an easter egg type zone, per boot, that would give incentive to just randomly do zones.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Dec 19, 2006 10:46 pm

Thilindel wrote:Speaking of zones, just the other day I was bored and looked at the list of zones. Noticing that Dragonspear Castle was a zone I'd never even heard of..not to mention I've played semi-frequently since 1995. Asking around, only one person knew of the zone, stating it had 'ok eq.' It'd be nice if there were an easter egg type zone, per boot, that would give incentive to just randomly do zones.


Hehehe most folks I know know of DSC, who'd you ask? Member you had a brief lapse of mudding :P
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Postby Minofagal » Tue Dec 19, 2006 11:21 pm

I actually wandered into it not to long ago. From what I saw while getting smeared it looked sorta neat.
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Postby Sarell » Thu Dec 21, 2006 9:07 am

Fighting badies in tight rooms to only hit one at a time is a cool strategy and has a neat gameplay feel to it, keep it in! But badies, especially monsters or animals, should kill horses.
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Postby Corth » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:19 pm

Agree with sarell.

I wonder if you couldn't just do that room troll king style...
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Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 21, 2006 3:49 pm

Even in a !teleport zone, I can think of ways to trap mobs in a single file and take mobs out. Typically, people opt to do fights straight up because its boring for a group of 15 to watch 2-3 melee types hack at a ton of mobs while a few spell them up/heal. Its pretty rare now that you see small groups attack zones, despite how fun and challenging it is.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Dec 21, 2006 6:09 pm

"Strategies" such as this one are the reason the EQcalc didn't work spectacularly. Everyone and their mother knows you weren't supposed to do that fight 1 mob at a time.

Changing the risk of death to 1 member over however many hours doesn't equate to nearly the same difficulty nor should it garner the same rewards.
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Postby grundar » Thu Dec 21, 2006 7:50 pm

Eilistraee wrote:The fact that a big bad mob cannot figure out what to do with a little 150 hitpoint horse is standing in its way is a flaw...
I'll allow the news entry to speak for itself.


well it has a multitude of options
eat it raw, take it back and cook it, hump it, lick it, tickle it, toss it, push it, pull it... and as we know the more options available the more they get confused... poor beholders have a ton of extra options to consider... like disintegrate it or forcemissile it..

i hope that explained the situation
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Postby moritheil » Thu Dec 21, 2006 8:32 pm

Ambar wrote:
Thilindel wrote:Speaking of zones, just the other day I was bored and looked at the list of zones. Noticing that Dragonspear Castle was a zone I'd never even heard of..not to mention I've played semi-frequently since 1995. Asking around, only one person knew of the zone, stating it had 'ok eq.' It'd be nice if there were an easter egg type zone, per boot, that would give incentive to just randomly do zones.


Hehehe most folks I know know of DSC, who'd you ask? Member you had a brief lapse of mudding :P


Several goodies got turned off to DSC after I led a few groups there and managed to get stuck once due to an error in the zone. We had to wait for an imm to take us out :)

Granted, that was years ago and the zone has probably been fixed, but I know that several people said at the time they wouldn't set foot in it again :P
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Postby Glorishan » Thu Dec 21, 2006 10:58 pm

grundar wrote:eat it raw, take it back and cook it, hump it, lick it, tickle it, toss it, push it, pull it


Sounds like a bad Bop-It commercial.
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Dec 23, 2006 9:25 pm

Image
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Postby Ambar » Sat Dec 23, 2006 11:10 pm

I LoL'd

hehe
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Postby Dalar » Tue Jan 02, 2007 7:40 pm

Those comics are awesome. They feel like OOTS but just for Toril people. Speaking of unintentional design, do people still run past all the patrols in BC? Or cheese-kill them by killing off the leaders?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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