Helper Minimum Requirements

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
nalaya
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Helper Minimum Requirements

Postby nalaya » Wed Mar 07, 2007 8:58 pm

Is there any?

I have been playing the mud for 2 years and still do not think I know enough about it to help people.

Should there be a min requirement of playing time?

Should helpers be respected throughout the mud since they are the ones representing the experienced players?

Should they have to have a level 50 char?

Should helpers have high level chars from various classes so that they can provide help to multiple classes?


Is there already a set of min requirements in place? How are helpers chosen? Any input on this would be great as I do not know the process involved in helper selection.
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Postby amolol » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:07 pm

very good post nalaya :)

my thoughts.

a helper should have been playing for at least 1 year recommended 2

a helper should be able to answer a battery of 20 questions (chosen by the gods and current helpers) about the most frequently asked questions. and just like in any test you miss 4 and you fail.

a helper should have at least one 50 char i would suggest having 2 of different class types (exa: 1 tank 1 cleric, or 1 mage 1 hitter)

as for being generally liked on the mud... i totally agree we want to put our best foot forward. we are a fairly tight knit community and yes we have our discrepancies but who doesn't. i think if the general populous of the mud doesn't seem to like the person that there is probably a very good reason. i know not everyone on the mud likes me so maybe there is a very good reason why i shouldnt be a helper if i were ever considered. not that i havent grown and changed alot since some talked to me but if even 10 people on the mud didnt like me. i would put that down as a bad mark on my application to be a helper.
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Postby Lilira » Wed Mar 07, 2007 9:21 pm

amolol wrote:a helper should have been playing for at least 1 year recommended 2

a helper should be able to answer a battery of 20 questions (chosen by the gods and current helpers) about the most frequently asked questions. and just like in any test you miss 4 and you fail.

a helper should have at least one 50 char i would suggest having 2 of different class types (exa: 1 tank 1 cleric, or 1 mage 1 hitter)


Agree with the first, though I would put it perhaps more in terms of playing time than regular time. A person who has been playing technically a year could be someone who logs on for maybe an hour a week, and just doesn't have time to learn their way around.

Agree with the second.

Disagree with the third kinda. Again I think it should be based on ptimes. For instance, I have one level 50 char, but I also have one level 48, 49, 3 X 46, 3X43 all of various classes (not even including all the babies). I've been playing here for over 10 years and I'm pretty familiar with the lower end of the game. I know the help files rather well, and if I don't I know a couple of reliable people who I can ask.

Yes you can have a level 50 char with 300 hours just from AFKing.. but being level 50 also means you've put in some time xping, and have probably zoned some too. Having a level 50 with umm.. 10 hours ptime doesn't necessarily mean you know much besides how to set up good rescue triggers and bash settings.

Its a double edged sword. Helpers should be people who are well-liked and can get along with the imms as well. Having someone who seems nice but is a real jerk when it comes time for conversations with the staff is kind of counter-productive because yes, helpers do need to be able to put their best foot forward at all times and represent the mud as a whole as the welcoming committee.
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Postby Sarvis » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:14 pm

I think having any arbitrary ptime/level limit is a little silly. I've never had a level 50 character, but I can generally help most newbies out with their questions on NHC when I'm running around with one of my lowbie chars...

Or at least I used to be able to last time I played.

A quiz to demonstrate actual knowledge would be better than all the other suggestions, but I agree that it's probably more important that the person be friendly. Frankly a person who doesn't know a lot about the mud but will group with a newbie and help him out is probably better than the reverse.
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Mar 07, 2007 10:58 pm

Newbie helpers should know this link:

http://members.tripod.com/~mjsbbs/ms/scarsdale.jpg


And should mudsex0r with imms
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Mar 07, 2007 11:41 pm

Fear the helper noob who claims Druids are NOT (as he said) a solo class. I'm sure Lilithelle should quit playing that class as she, after solo'g HOW much, should toss in the towel!
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Postby amolol » Thu Mar 08, 2007 1:57 am

in defense of the time level thing, i mention that as a general statement. obviously there will be exceptions to this rule... but as a general player its to be expected.i lilithelle had no level 50 chars i think we would all stuill support her as a newbie helper. it should be submitted as an application. just like in the real world when looking for A job. there are people out there with tons of college experience (knowledge) and no work experience (levels) and still know what they are talking about. it was more of a general guideline suggestion... but it is highly doubtfull that after 6 months or less of gamer play you will know much about the mud as a whole
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Postby Malia » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:19 am

For the most part i think most of the newbie helpers are knowledgeable.

Recently I saw that Inames is a newbie helper. I dont feel he is in anyway qualified or knowlegelable considering 90% of his lfg responses. His attitude in groups is crappy and most of the people dislike him or his attitude. Is this who we want all our newbies exposed to in the first day or two of their time on this mud?

I do agree there should be some set standard.
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Postby Malia » Thu Mar 08, 2007 2:19 am

duplicate.
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Postby amolol » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:48 am

while i compleetly and totaly agree. if we could avoid turning this into an all out personal attack threat that would be great. ive noticed that admin (whom we are tying to get the attention of) tend to ignore the attack threads... or so it would seem
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Postby Botef » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:52 am

When was the helper policy changed so that new helpers are being recruited? Last I had heard no new helpers were being recruited until a policy revamp...Has this changed?
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Postby amolol » Thu Mar 08, 2007 6:10 am

evidently boteff but it was never announced like i was told it would be.....
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:37 pm

So, what is the problem with leaving it up to imm discretion?
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Postby Ambar » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:43 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:So, what is the problem with leaving it up to imm discretion?


Nothing at all if the aforementioned helper is a viable helper .. someone who has been playing a few months does not qualify as a helper .. The only person any of us know that has become a helper in the last several months (years maybe?) simply does NOT qualify ..
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Mar 08, 2007 4:47 pm

Ambar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:So, what is the problem with leaving it up to imm discretion?


Nothing at all if the aforementioned helper is a viable helper .. someone who has been playing a few months does not qualify as a helper .. The only person any of us know that has become a helper in the last several months (years maybe?) simply does NOT qualify ..


If you can chat with the newbies, tell them how to find a light source, get them to mobs, and familiarize them with combat, movement, spellcasting, and skills (practice), I think that pretty much gets them through to lvl 20 anyway.

That really seems to be all a helper needs to do. While sure, some of us can discuss in depth topics like race/class selection and all of that noise, technically, the player has already created a character anyway - not something they would need the Immediate help of NHC for.
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Postby Vigis » Thu Mar 08, 2007 5:11 pm

I don't know that there should be any minimum requirements to be a helper. Well, maybe one: a willingness to help.

We need helpers of all degrees and levels of experience in the game.

One thing we could do is remove the level restriction on NHC, make it open to everybody but only give helpers the nifty little (H) flag. If a character above level 20 is abusing the channel or, more seriously, the newbies, revoke their NHC privileges permanently.

That way, everbody who thinks they have something to contribute can go ahead and do so.
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Postby nalaya » Thu Mar 08, 2007 8:47 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Ambar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:So, what is the problem with leaving it up to imm discretion?


Nothing at all if the aforementioned helper is a viable helper .. someone who has been playing a few months does not qualify as a helper .. The only person any of us know that has become a helper in the last several months (years maybe?) simply does NOT qualify ..


If you can chat with the newbies, tell them how to find a light source, get them to mobs, and familiarize them with combat, movement, spellcasting, and skills (practice), I think that pretty much gets them through to lvl 20 anyway.

That really seems to be all a helper needs to do. While sure, some of us can discuss in depth topics like race/class selection and all of that noise, technically, the player has already created a character anyway - not something they would need the Immediate help of NHC for.




Yes but even if you say knowledge isn't a factor. As Malia said earlier what qualifies someone who is regularly rude during groups, to be the first person a new visiter to the mud gets to interact with? Sorry but maybe it just me but if someone is rude and has an atitude problem which is very well known, I dont think it is a good thing for newbies to have to deal with when they are trying to learn the mud.
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Postby Botef » Thu Mar 08, 2007 9:36 pm

Can we get an admin response on the helper policy? I know there are quite a few people who have been patiently waiting for over a year now to apply/be added as a helper.
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Postby Grumdikanikus » Fri Mar 09, 2007 12:56 am

Truly, a "helper" should be everyone of us. No matter of level of experience. We should all be willing to help any newbie that asks us a question. And if we are busy at the time, we should also point them to someone else that might be free to help them.

The only way the game will truly flourish is to give all players a sense of family. Make them feel welcome and give them a reason to come back and play.

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Postby Nilan » Fri Mar 09, 2007 1:35 am

Agree Grum.

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Postby amolol » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:49 am

i think what they are trying to say is that an individual should show that they want to be part of the family instead of one of the other muds like a graphical mud where you run around stealing kills and being a selfish jerk. that isnt the kind of face we would like to have on torilmud ... at least its not the kind of face i want... if its the kind of face everyone else wants ill delete right now.
the kind of face i would like to see portrayed is that we are kind giving people. despite our discrepencies we try to struggle to stay afloat and we support eachother instead of an attitude that should only be seen in a single player game.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 09, 2007 5:26 am

teflor the ranger wrote:not something they would need the Immediate help of NHC for.


It's Newbie Help Channel, not the Get You to Level 20 Channel. Last time I checked, new players could be new for several months totally independant of playing time or *cough* level. Makes 0 sense to have a channel where only a select few actual experienced players can talk, and yet hope that it can somehow help a new player. 95% of the time I talk to someone new, it is because they saw me on Who and I had a similar race/class to talk to them about.

Grumdikanikus wrote:We should all be willing to help any newbie that asks us a question.


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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 09, 2007 6:59 am

Tasan wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:not something they would need the Immediate help of NHC for.


It's Newbie Help Channel, not the Get You to Level 20 Channel. Last time I checked, new players could be new for several months totally independant of playing time or *cough* level. Makes 0 sense to have a channel where only a select few actual experienced players can talk, and yet hope that it can somehow help a new player. 95% of the time I talk to someone new, it is because they saw me on Who and I had a similar race/class to talk to them about.


And yet it's only open to players under level 20.

And.... what? I'm not advocating a closed helper channel and I have no idea what you're responding to.
Last edited by teflor the ranger on Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:06 am

nalaya wrote:As Malia said earlier what qualifies someone who is regularly rude during groups, to be the first person a new visiter to the mud gets to interact with?


And what disqualifies them? Who said they would be rude to a new player they are trying to help? Why would a player, though perhaps rude in the game, purposefully chase off new players?

Of course, you couldn't answer these questions. No one really could. Behavior that is detrimental to the mud won't go unnoticed, by the other helpers, the imms, or the new players themselves.

If they run into a problem with a helper, which is doubtful, it can surely be dealt with on a case by case basis.
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Postby Rented » Fri Mar 09, 2007 8:31 am

just so that you know, after level 20, when I need questions answered, I do a: who helper

then I start to ask the "knowledgeable" non-afk ones for help. I can't tell you how many times I have asked lili, zoom, nilan, vigis, etc questions about other things other than scardale and what this does, what happens when I do this, saving throws and if past 19 makes a difference, or what is the max con for this race/class, etc. I don't think a person with the experience of 6 months can answer that. You know, let's be pricks and ask the 6 month helper about Tiamat or what is the best way a chanter can twink a bag of holding, etc...hahaha =P

Point made
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Postby Ambar » Fri Mar 09, 2007 3:29 pm

I don't think a helper has to be all knowing, hell *I* am a helper and admittedly I am a noob about a LOTof things .. but I can answer BASIC mud questions about races, classes, zoning, how to start out in general .. New EQ, new zones, forget it! Hehe becoming a helper was so rewarding for me .. to be able to retain that new player, to be able to go to the new troll trying to leave Ghore for the first time, asking about stuff we ALL asked about and being able to help them .. Having a new person that I was unable to relo to get lost and by the room description, be able to help walk them out of the area they were lost in .. things like that ..

I am quite sure the staff will identify the *bad* helpers and resolve the issue, especially since so many people have responded to this thread, but I think Nalaya's point to this thread is valid .. what does it take to become a helper .. and what measuers are in place to determining if the applicant QUALIFIES as a helper ..

Noone is arguing that we NEED helpers, we are arguing that we need helpers that are qualified to do the job .. hell some of the people I helped gained more knowledge in 6 months that I EVER will have, so I don't think play time is a factor .. it all depends on the player ..

Being able to tell a new player where a light source is doesn't mean you should be a helper, hell in that case open NHC to everyone!
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Postby nalaya » Fri Mar 09, 2007 7:15 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:And what disqualifies them? Who said they would be rude to a new player they are trying to help? Why would a player, though perhaps rude in the game, purposefully chase off new players?

Of course, you couldn't answer these questions. No one really could. Behavior that is detrimental to the mud won't go unnoticed, by the other helpers, the imms, or the new players themselves.

If they run into a problem with a helper, which is doubtful, it can surely be dealt with on a case by case basis.


When someone is rude and mouthy to the majority of people on the mud, including zone leaders why would they treat a newbie any different.
But that is not the point of my thread. I was just wondering what was used in determining who becomes a helper. And also want to know when they started accepting new helpers since many people on this mud have been told they weren't accepting helpers.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Mar 09, 2007 10:43 pm

Best solution i've heard is to make the helper channel a global channel that has no level restrictions or requirements, and have it togable so anyone, and everyone can help if they feel the need. Sure, you can still have set helpers, but have the channel open to anyone because all new players will still have questions past level 20, true new players that is, which is what we want. Right?
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Postby Lilira » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:06 pm

Oh and perm gag people if they start being smartaleks on it like they do on lfgc.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 09, 2007 11:31 pm

Lilira wrote:Oh and perm gag people if they start being smartaleks on it like they do on lfgc.


Or you could do the intelligent thing and give us a global channel to talk about the mud on... hrmm....
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Postby Rented » Sat Mar 10, 2007 1:35 am

I think we should do this. Have a person who wants to be a helper identify themselves in a new thread and allow people to vote for them.

Everything solved! No more conflicts.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Mar 10, 2007 12:46 pm

I've been a helper for quite some time now, and I think the helper system is fine. Peoples questions get answered and true new players are identified so that helpers can go group with them (or certain other people that might have time can be directed to them) if both parties are so inclined.

I know that some of you feel that certain people (or a certain person) should not be a helper (and some of the threads above were possibly just another campaign against said person without saying thier name, but sure, I'll play along just in case it isn't).

Do I think people should be required to have been playing the game for more than 2-3 years, and be generally liked by everyone? Yes.

Do I think there could be a few more helpers? Sure, but just a few.

Do I think the entire mud should be helpers? Definately not.

I think the staff generally, for the most part, tries thier best to take into account these questions, and the answers to these questions, presently. Sure you might have an exception or two, but I do think they try.


Why do I think that everybody logged into the game should not be on NHC?

At best, two to five variations of answers to the same question from qualified helpers is all a person really needs to fully answer them. Even in the extreme cases of more difficult questions, where helpers will speculate or offer opinions for the types of questions that require that. All helpers that are at the keys for those types of questions all feel obligated to put in thier opinion, and if it was open to everybody you would spam the bejesus out of them and they would most likely be sorry they asked (I have seen it before a couple times).

But I think the main reason is, that some people might be shy, or be afraid to appear "stupid" or what have you, and would not ask questions if they knew that the entire mud was watching.

I think these are the reasons the staff has made NHC the way it is, and do put limitations on the number of people allowed to be helpers. And again, I think the system works very well.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Mar 10, 2007 7:32 pm

The point of having a limited number of helpers is to avoid contradictory information, spam, and outright arguments. Recently people LFGCd for things like "I really need someone familiar with EM" and got pages of responses. While it's great that we as a community are so helpful, sometimes the best way to learn is from a select few people, regardless of the individual prejudices with which they approach the system (such as insisting that X class or Y race is better.)

Furthermore, being designated as a helper implies a commitment, and one that should be taken very seriously. I am not helper flagged, because it is unlikely that I will catch NHC things when zoning, and be able to give suitably nuanced, well-thought-out answers while fighting for my life. If everyone just answered or did not answer NHC based on their own personal considerations, such as whether or not they were zoning or whether or not they felt like answering, and without taking into account their own level of knowledge and aptitude, chaos would result. The helper system is not perfect, but it at least involves a cursory examination of a potential helper's willingness, availability, and skill.

I have suggested before that a formalized apprentice system of some sort would really be best for Toril, and I still think that is true. It is important to foster community feeling, but even more than that, at the start, it is even more important to clearly designate a go-to person for help and advice. A one-to-one personal relationship is ideal for making people feel connected here, and the further we get from that, the less the helper relationship factors in retention.
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Postby sotana » Sun Mar 11, 2007 3:38 am

Honestly, I have to say that my biggest reason for not wanting to see NHC available to everyone's input is quality control. And not quality control of knowledge/information but rather of attitude :-P

Even with the current system, there have been a few times that I've seen newbies ask questions and get facetious/heckling answers or even outright wrong answers from people who definitely know the correct information....and while those folks may be just 'messing around', the newbies don't know them, don't know the mud, and have no way of knowing it's 'all in good fun' then can easily end up feeling insignificant, frustrated, and embarassed. Not exactly the point of the newbie help channel! :-P

I think that once you find your place (whatever it may be) in this mud community, it can sometimes be easy to forget what things look like and sound like to those who haven't found their place yet but are just beginning to shape their understanding of Torilmud. NHC needs the quality control because people who are new to the mud learn much much more about our mud from an NHC response than simple technical knowledge.

Just my own two cents of course and a little off course from Nalaya's original questions but dang I'm such a newbie still that I can't help responding!
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Mar 11, 2007 11:23 pm

Tasan wrote:
Lilira wrote:Oh and perm gag people if they start being smartaleks on it like they do on lfgc.


Or you could do the intelligent thing and give us a global channel to talk about the mud on... hrmm....



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Postby Kegor » Mon Mar 12, 2007 12:20 am

sotana wrote:Even with the current system, there have been a few times that I've seen newbies ask questions and get facetious/heckling answers or even outright wrong answers from people who definitely know the correct information....and while those folks may be just 'messing around', the newbies don't know them, don't know the mud, and have no way of knowing it's 'all in good fun' then can easily end up feeling insignificant, frustrated, and embarassed. Not exactly the point of the newbie help channel! :-P


I have seen this once also. Wasn't extremely bad, but it should not happen at all. Period. This would be a good activity for those bored admins possibly. Review NHC logs to determine if certain helpers should be relieved from helper status.

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