!triggers

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Gurns
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!triggers

Postby Gurns » Tue Mar 20, 2007 6:38 pm

Proposition: Triggers are bad for the mud, and therefore (almost) all triggers should be against the rules.

Don’t get excited, I can’t see it happening. But I think it would be good for the game, and I was wondering what others thought.

Note that I’ve got nothing against aliases, mapping, speedwalk, and the like. Those are conveniences that don’t really affect gameplay.

Point: For the most enjoyment of a game, people must be engaged. You can be engaged watching, but you will be more engaged doing.

Triggers reduce player engagement. Even if you’re at keys and in the mud window, if your PC is running mostly on triggers, you’re watching, not doing. And if you’re watching, not doing, you’re more likely to be doing other things, too, further reducing engagement.

Point: Almost everyone finds some aspect of competition to be enjoyable. You may compete with others, you may compete with yourself, you may compete against the computer, but you are trying to be better.

Triggers eliminate that aspect of the game. The only way to get better is to get a better trigger set. That’s not getting better at the game. And if everyone runs off the same best trigger set, there is very little difference in player quality. Yes, the better players are still better, because the best don’t run 100% on triggers, but the difference between good players and bad players shrinks to a very small amount.

Point: Triggers eliminate some of the complexity and color of the game.

Bashes, spells that knock you over are a good idea, you have to pay attention to whether you’re sitting or standing. With triggers, everyone autostands, that aspect of the game is gone. Fumble is a fun idea. A mob might pick up your weapon and start hitting you with it! With triggers, that almost never happens.

Point: AFK players are bad for the game.

There is a social aspect to the game, and someone who “ignores youâ€
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Postby Botef » Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:36 pm

I'd have to disagree for two reasons:

1) Writting complex triggers to perform tasks is perhaps one of my my
favorite things about this MUD. Necromancers/Lichs is a wicked
awesome class to me because of the incrediable amount of things
you can do with some clever trigger writting. If this wasn't
the case I doubt I'd even see much interest in the class at all.

2) IMO Triggers are hardly a replacement for a competent player.
While I really dislike using auto-spellers and other trigger sets
that all but completly automate a class there are times they are
useful (GRINDING XP, moan). If people want to try to automate
themselves thats their choice IMO. If they do it during zones
thats their choice, forcing them them to not AFK by way of repetitive
tasks won't generate any more interest IMO. A better bet is to
put more features into the game that require more attention...
From what I have read from 2.0 I think the variable amount of
spell functions/skills/combat maneuvers will add plenty of new
elements of interaction that will hopefully increase the need for
players to be more attentive and at keys.

If players honestly want to write complex triggers so they can
AFK through a zone let them...I certainly won't be hot on the
idea of taking a bard that just afk's the whole time but others
might not care. Forcing players to do everything manually,
while nostalgic as it might be, just doesn't seem like the right
solution to keeping people interested and unafk.

To sum it all up from my prespective...I started playing this
MUD like most of us, using telnet, and as addictive a time as
that may have been, the day I did started using a client and
writing triggers was the day I truely became a full on addict.
Sunamit group-says 'imrex west, tibek backstab touk i think his name is on entry'
// Post Count +1
Adriorn Darkcloak
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Agree

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Mar 20, 2007 8:27 pm

I agree with your points Gurns. I hardly use triggers or scripts, and those I have are the basic ones for being bashed, fumbling, and that's about it. Those that know me know that I am probably the worst, worst 'coder' on the mud and I couldn't write a good script/trigger if I took 4 coding classes. I.E. my cond caller. I don't know what a CLASS is in zmud, nor what all the options are either. I make a trigger to pick up weapons individually, since otherwise I end up picking up 'the big long sword that is green'. Trust me, it's bad. Bad.

I rescue by typing, as well as casting spells and such, although like Gurns, I do use aliases for the spells themselves of course, but very basic aliases. No clue how to auto-assist, auto-heal, zilch.

But I have no qualms about knowing that I won't be as "good" as some others out there who have their entire caster/tank triggered. I enjoy the game more this way, and so far, haven't really affected the zoning dynamics with my style of playing hopefully. Either that, or people out there are really, really kind and generous.

In the end it does come down to player choice. I think in a big way it has contributed to things being easier to do. Sometimes that's a good thing, other times it's not. Shrug, I enjoy it better this way.

Eep.
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Postby Lilira » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:32 pm

90% of my triggers are captures. Yes I have some that grab weapons, but since my weapons are all cursed, I rarely have to use them.

Standing trigs for me are hit or miss because I know I've missed a few. Most of the time as my voker I end up manually standing because most of the time my computer hasn't caught up to the mud.

I miss things in spam. People who zone with me regularly know this. I capture gsays and other communications, I capture when certain of my own spells go off. (Incendiary clouds, meteor swarms, tblasts, infernos) just so I know when I can (yes manually) start casting again. Yes, even with brief toggled to the max, I loose things in translation. My eyes sometimes just can't keep up especially if I'm tired. I have triggers that colorize when certain of my spells wear off, but for the most part I've gotten rid of the whole "Dragonscales/vit/blur/displace etc etc etc OUT!" triggers as I've had most casters tell me its annoying gsays they don't need.

My enchanter settings have an alias that does a group glance and spits the results to another window. Do I auto-spell? Heck no, nor will I ever. My divines have something similar that keeps track of vits. What's the point of even playing if I'm essentially a robot with the computer doing everything for me?
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You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Mar 20, 2007 9:53 pm

It's funny.

The first mud I ever played which shall remain nameless was a very heavy D&D based LCP mud. Triggers were against the rules there.(Didn't matter to me at first, I didn't know what triggers were, I played through Telnet), and it was also a PK mud. I played there for 3 years or so, first year and a half or so was straight telnet but I got to be one of the best PK'ers/Players on that mud that way. I learned to type faster, and read a lot faster and be ready for crap.

When I eventually found zmud, and got it I was shocked I could just make a quick little script thing to do everything i'd normally type out by hand and it suddenly made sense why it was banned.

So, to a point I can agree with you. Triggers were a totally new thing to me, and I could see how it could help in some situations.
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Tanji Smanji
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Postby Tanji Smanji » Wed Mar 21, 2007 12:01 am

Telnet + qmodemC is the only way to mud.
How to go from Waelos to Weylarii.

Weylarii group-says 'oh shit! my penis is stuck in the toaster. afk'

Corth ASSOC:: 'up to you.. need a ranger, but if you want to afk i can probably find someone else'
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Postby Malvareth » Wed Mar 21, 2007 2:04 am

I use very few triggers, mostly convenience ones such as auto-meditating after tell/gsay/etc., automatically putting coins into my sack and such. No triggers affect my play during combat or do something while I'm not present at the keyboard. The rest of my triggers are things that display text only to me, like "#say MIRROR IMAGE DOWN". And of course get/wield triggers, I won't expect anyone to live without those.

I can see why triggers are beneficial in some ways. Condition callers and spell-out messages are almost vital to the game, and it would add nothing to force players into doing those things manually. On the other hand, I strongly dislike triggers that play the game for the players. Both because I find it almost disrespectful to the mud's creators that someone will write up a script that allows their character to advance without the player's attendance, and because I don't like the thought of grouping with someone who isn't controlling their character if it may result in in negative consequences for me or others in the group.

I don't think triggers is a huge problem on Toril (as far as I've seen, at least) and I doubt a rule is really needed. However, if I had to make up something fair without being too restrictive, I'd say disallowing any trigger that uses a skill/spell or initiates a fight would be acceptable. It's not always easy to see whether or not something's done by trigger or just alias/macro or simply manual input, so it's almost impossible to enforce.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:28 am

I take pride in the fact I actually play my enchanter .. I dont use autospellups, I dont use timers for spells .. I use the HELL out of the glance and group commands tho ..

I have alieas out the wazoo simply because I typo SO DAMNED much ..

I see players who are faster with their fancy trigger sets, but the inward job well-done I get for myself is good enough for me

I capture communication into different windows for ease and so I can see those spell out triggers if I missed them in battle spam .. I do trigger on autostands, but thats really about it .. most of my triggers are self only so I can spam me ..

I think back in the *day* if you didnt do it yourself other than basic fumble / eat /drink triggers .. you were considered a botter .. My how times have changed :P when a core class can be played mostly afk ..
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Postby bawog » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:33 am

Gonna have to agree with Ambar on this one, I myself even tho I do chant a TON of zones, I have NEVER used an auto spell up trigger. Only thing that I use are glance aliases. I count the ticks in my head and I know when spells are going ot fall. As for my warrior I have been known to manually rescue just to see if I still have it, but generally speaking I use a rescue set. Any caster that I play I do it manually cept for glance triggers! The less trigger one uses the better off we are, cause they are actually playing their class!
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Postby Gurns » Wed Mar 21, 2007 3:34 am

Malvareth wrote:I don't think triggers is a huge problem on Toril

*shrug* I’ve no idea what the situation is like now, either. I do remember on Soj 2, one group leader wanted me to set up triggers so he could run me. I guess he’d usually worked with afk bards. And I remember a SPOB run, two, three years back, we get to the last fight, and start doing runs, and the cleric says “Tug me for heal.â€
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Postby Tasan » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:10 am

Or you could fix the horribly boring aspects that drive people to make triggers.

90% of my triggers are automating things that should be automated server side.
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Postby Kegor » Wed Mar 21, 2007 7:58 am

Tanji Smanji wrote:Telnet + qmodemC is the only way to mud.


Qmodem was actually the first client I used when I was playing tele-arena 5.0 and MajorMud way back in the day. I might still be able to write a good full-on botting script for it now too, but it would take a quick refresher course. :wink:
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Postby Kegor » Wed Mar 21, 2007 8:41 am

I think as far as little tug trigs and what not go, thats okay. Most people do not use them ever, which is good. And most people do frown on it a little bit, which is also good to discourage its use except when absolutely needed. I do think it is good to allow for a slightly more casual atmosphere for certain parts of the game when things come up. Being able to walk away from the keys to go take a crap, or what have you in a spot like that where you can do that should be an acceptable option if absolutely neccessary.

I'm not a big fan of holding up a group of 14 other people because I have to go help my neighbors move a couch mid-zone, but stuff like that happens every so often. There is no pause button on this game, but I think we try to create one when we can to do things that we need to do. This happens more frequently for some people than others, but we all do it from time to time.

Tasan wrote:Or you could fix the horribly boring aspects that drive people to make triggers.

90% of my triggers are automating things that should be automated server side.


Yep.

SPELL-UPS

*RECYCLED IDEA* Group spells for the same spell you would be casting on each person individually. You would need to make them use appropriate casting time and mem time of course. Hell, make a quest out of it if you want too! (No rares with quest though, unless system event boot schedule is implemented).

RESCUE

*RECYCLED IDEA* You could modify rescue to be the same for everybody, in a fashion much like the 'guard' skill for paladins.

This was a tough issue in the past for some people to get over, but I think it's clear now in the mud that everybody is going to use triggers for this, and that they are needed to even be considered an "okay tank". Some would argue that would dumb down the roll of the tank. I think it would only dumb it down in the sense of deciding if someone was smart enough, or ambitious enough in most cases, to install the appropriate trigger setup.

TORIL 2.0

I really would like to see this applied in the future in order to make these aspects of gameplay more appealing for all players. New and old. Not only do we need to fix tedious tasks, and general skills that require triggers by today's standards, we need to do it in a way that starts to change things in a direction that leaves the player with a number of choices, options, and styles of playing thier characters. Not needing to depend on your mud client for triggers or scripts in aspects of core gameplay to be a top end gamer would be a good start.

All players should be able to dedicate all of thier time on the mud to actually playing the game (not learning how to write or modify complex triggers for it). This would go a long way toward making it easier on newer players being able to hang with the rest of us, without being labeled a noob just because they haven't put the time into the triggers. They should be labeled a noob by the choices they make, the skills they choose to use, and on whom and when they choose to use/change settings on them.

Anyhow, you get the point. The good news is that taking the first steps in the right direction is pretty simple. Where we go after that would require testing and discussion.
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Postby ssar » Wed Mar 21, 2007 9:39 am

I use relatively simple aliases and triggers: no complex or scripting ones, nor any based on tick timers, most off by default (& can be turned on/off with buttons), and a significant portion of them for captures, colours & "#say" client-screen-only reporting.

I find there's still more than enough aspects to the game to counter any "gaming dumbing-down" effect these may cause.

The primary reasons I use and love my aliases & triggersets are:

1) Lack of real typing skill.

2) Increased "security" & resultant propensity to relax whilst gaming.

3) Enjoyable customization & enhancment with elements of my own design in my client and MUD gaming.

The rules and intent of the rules regarding these are fine as is.

If I had to reduce my triggersets significantly, there's cause to play even less.
BEER
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Postby Gormal » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:04 pm

Rescue triggers ruined the warrior class.

In the distant past, there were very few zones where you fought more than 5 or 6 mobs at once. Jot gatehouse was unique, but everyone's made their massive fights and the changes to switch code made it impossible to function without triggers. Lets face it, you cannot realistically compete with a warrior running triggers.

The day that Dizahk asked me to switch from my cleric to my warrior for CC was the turning point of me switching from Kildran to Gormal. Now, there's really no need to bash shieldpunch or do anything other than rescue except in rare cases.
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Re: !triggers

Postby teflor the ranger » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:10 pm

Gurns wrote:Point: For the most enjoyment of a game, people must be engaged. You can be engaged watching, but you will be more engaged doing.


No point. You can't enjoy what you're forced to be engaged in.
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Ambar
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Re: !triggers

Postby Ambar » Wed Mar 21, 2007 4:16 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:
Gurns wrote:Point: For the most enjoyment of a game, people must be engaged. You can be engaged watching, but you will be more engaged doing.


No point. You can't enjoy what you're forced to be engaged in.


I dont think you get his point, cause his point was well made.

Enaged, engrossed, immersed

People can watch and enjoy football .. but it is more fun to PLAY it .. with great trigger sets we dont need to PLAY anymore .. we can just watch . wheres the skill other than being a good coder :)
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."



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Ifin
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Postby Ifin » Thu Mar 22, 2007 11:43 am

Example:


Invoker:

#CLASS {BotSmoke} {disable}
#TRIGGER {Touch who?} {
#SEND @smokeAction
touch mephit
}
#TRIGGER {{You touch Heluva.|You touch Bvaaka.}} {
#SEND @smokeAction
touch mephit
}
#TRIGGER {{You touch the smoke mephit.|You touch the air mephit.}} {
kil mephit
sgo
}
#TRIGGER {Your studies are complete.} {
#IF (@spCD = "cd") {cd} {
emote sends you sprawling.
#WAIT 1000
touch mephit
spl force mis
}
}
#TRIGGER {You are surrounded by freezing cold!} {
#VAR spCD %ansi( bold)CD
emote sends you sprawling.
#WAIT 1500
touch mephit
}
#TRIGGER {You receive your share} {
#T- AutoSpell
spl force mis
memo
}
#TRIGGER {The %w mephit attempts to flee.} {} "" {within|param=2}
#COND {The %w mephit flies (%w).} {
#ALL {abort}
#WAIT 1000
#SEND (%1)
#WAIT 1000
sgo
}
#TRIGGER {You don't have that spell memorized.} {
#IF (@sspell = "sandbl") {
spl fell fr
sgo
} {
spl sandbl
sgo
}
}
#CLASS 0
#CLASS {BotSmoke|SmokeMove}
#TRIGGER {An Enormous Pillar of Fire} {#VAR smokeAction "east"}
#TRIGGER {A Fiery Area in the Plane of Smoke} {#VAR smokeAction "flee"}
#TRIGGER {A Roiling Pocket of Smoke} {#VAR smokeAction "flee"}
#TRIGGER {A Collosal Vortex of Wind} {#VAR smokeAction "west"}
#CLASS 0


Cleric:

#CLASS {AutoXP|AutoGroup} {disable}
#TRIGGER {* (%d)~/(%d)%shit ~- @maintank} {#IF (@inbattle = "yes") {#IF (%1 < 675) {fhm} {#IF (%2 < 950) {vtm}}}}
#TRIGGER {You receive your share of experience.} {#VAR inbattle "no"}
#TRIGGER {{attacks|chokes} @maintank} {
#IF (@inbattle = "no") {
flee
memo
#VAR inbattle "yes"
#ALARM +12 {
st
#SEND %reversedir( @fleedir)
group
}
}
group
}
#TRIGGER {You summon a holy light which heals} {group}
#TRIGGER {You don't have that spell memorized.} {#IF (@inbattle = "yes") {hlm}}
#TRIGGER {@maintank {sends}} {
#IF (@inbattle = "no") {
flee
memo
#VAR inbattle "yes"
#ALARM +12 {
st
#SEND %reversedir( @fleedir)
group
}
}
}
#TRIGGER {@maintank group-says '*vit*'} {group}
#TRIGGER {PANIC! You couldn't escape!} {
#UNTRIG {+12}
stand
}
#TRIGGER {Casting: vitality$} {group}
#CLASS 0


I don't see how things can be enjoyable even when at keys when certain things can be broken down to mindless repitition.
Gurns
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Postby Gurns » Thu Mar 22, 2007 3:30 pm

Ifin wrote:Example:

Best. Argument. Ever. :)

Seriously, I love it. It’s unexpected, it makes your point, it’s geeky, it’s all about Toril. Fun, thanks!

That doesn’t mean I’m convinced by it, of course. :) I understand your point, but…well, it’s going to take me some thought to write a good reply.
Gurns
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Postby Gurns » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:27 pm

Ifin wrote:I don't see how things can be enjoyable even when at keys when certain things can be broken down to mindless repitition.

That’s true. To the extent that the game is mindless repetition, once you’ve learned the routine, it gets stale. But I see that as a design flaw. Where mindless repetition is required, or encouraged by being rewarded, that should be changed.

The mud has a number of such things, and I’d be happy to see them gone. But can the game ever be designed so there is no such repetition? I think not.

So suppose most of the mindless stuff gets changed. My question is, are triggers good for this game then? Rescue triggers are still useful, obviously, but are they good for the game? Not so much the game as it is played, or will be played, but for the game that is desired. Obviously, players like their triggers, heck, I like my stand trigger. But would it be a better game if players were forced to be at keys, paying attention? To type in every command, even if it’s a quick alias? And if they missed something, to suffer the consequences?

I think that would be a better mud game. Even though if I ever played a character that had to react quickly and properly, I’d be in big trouble!
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Postby Lilira » Thu Mar 22, 2007 8:45 pm

Me without song aliases.....

get box layers

get lyre layers

*You do not have a lyre in your layers*

curse

get lyre box

*You get a nightwood lyre out of your ruby studded instrument box.*

curse

sa Dangit.. wrong lyre.

get AMBERYL box

*you do not have a amberyl in your box.*

curse

mutter

get amberyl layers

hold amberyl

sing 'song of trv'

*oops typo*

mutter

sing 'song of travel'

You begin singing.

sweat
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Tasan » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:04 pm

Lilira wrote:Me without song aliases.....


This thread isn't about hoarding eq.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



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Lilira
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Postby Lilira » Thu Mar 22, 2007 9:22 pm

Tasan wrote:
Lilira wrote:Me without song aliases.....


This thread isn't about hoarding eq.


I'm a bard. You never know when that string is gonna break... always good to have backups. Besides, different instruments have different tones. Ask any musician.

*snicker*
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Todrael » Sun Mar 25, 2007 8:57 pm

I've played extensively on muds that ban triggers. They did that primarily because the focus of the mud was on mining. You type drill wall. Over. And over. And over.

I can get a bit obsessive (not compulsive), so I enjoyed this game for a time. Yet I had a problem. The game's hard-coded anti-bot devices were activating on me all the time.

Hmm, I thought. I'm not triggering. Why does it think I am? I'm tripping the defences. I'm getting questioned by the staff. Obviously, I was just too good for that game. I was able to precisely hit enter at the exact moment when I was able to for the drilling. I was able to speedwalk as fast as a macro.

My solution? Trigger. To get around the anti-trigger defenses, which were going off all the time for my regular actions, I had to add a bunch of triggers to automate stuff with randomly applied #wait times in between. Making them ansi triggers also assured I wouldn't respond in the silly way I did when I wasn't triggering, by hitting enter again when the staff gave me 'trick' room echoes. I didn't know what they were, so I wanted to make sure I was still mining. They saw it as more evidence of botting.

Hilarious, really.

And then that was that other mud, where I automated my character so well that all I had to do was type the keyword of my enemy, and my tank, then hit one button when the fight started, and then watch the screen. I got so good on that mud that I left because I figured I had 'beaten' it. It was really boring when a major zone was just hit the '5' key and watch the spam scroll by. I triggered myself off of that mud.

On Toril, I've built up gigantic triggersets, with aliases, and variables, and some complex code. And yet I still do the majority of it by hand. Toril is complex enough that it's difficult to account for all situations, and I've seen 'bots' screw up and get themselves or others killed so many times, it certainly doesn't seem worth it.

There's a balance. You can't ban botting. It's impossible. You can only make the game enough fun that people won't want to bot, that botting will only get you in trouble because of that little trick the mob just pulled. A dynamic, exciting game that requires strategy and thought. So, keep improving the game, and those who want to trigger can do so to the limit of the rules to make the game less boring to them.
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Re: !triggers

Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Mar 25, 2007 10:27 pm

Ambar wrote:
teflor the ranger wrote:
Gurns wrote:Point: For the most enjoyment of a game, people must be engaged. You can be engaged watching, but you will be more engaged doing.


No point. You can't enjoy what you're forced to be engaged in.


I dont think you get his point, cause his point was well made.

Enaged, engrossed, immersed

People can watch and enjoy football .. but it is more fun to PLAY it .. with great trigger sets we dont need to PLAY anymore .. we can just watch . wheres the skill other than being a good coder :)


I don't think you get my point. His point was not well made. You can say "get them engrossed" but you need to say how. And "because I said so," isn't a good point.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Mar 26, 2007 1:33 pm

Todrael wrote: Complete bullshit because you play a bard.
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Postby moritheil » Mon Mar 26, 2007 3:46 pm

As one infamous for leading dozens of zones from telnet, let me just suggest that everyone first endure the agony of several zone runs before they post in support of a ban on triggers.

Also, I don't want to question Gurns's motives, because I know they are pure, but I believe his perspective may be a little different since by his own admission he is not in the high-end zoning scene anymore. He primarily does RP. I am all for a ban on triggers in RP, but I can't see a ban on triggers in zoning.
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Postby Todrael » Mon Mar 26, 2007 10:04 pm

Gormal wrote:Unconstructive comment with no substance or thought.


Only relevant if the thread were about AFKing instead of triggering. My bard is not a bot. Bard is a class where you only have to type two commands (follow, sing), and you can pretend you're done for the zone, whether you have any triggers or not. That is a class design issue.
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Postby Gurns » Tue Mar 27, 2007 4:43 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:And "because I said so," isn't a good point.

Because lots of people have said so.

Game design theory and practice is clear that "active" is needed for a successful game. There are a number of other factors involved. But on this dimension, active is required, passive doesn’t work.

teflor the ranger wrote:You can't enjoy what you're forced to be engaged in.

In any game, you have to control your pieces, character, men, armies, make them go here or there, make them do this or that. Seems to me that’s forcing you to be engaged.

moritheil wrote:As one infamous for leading dozens of zones from telnet, let me just suggest that everyone first endure the agony of several zone runs before they post in support of a ban on triggers.

Been there, done that, tried half a dozen classes. Successfully? No, there were classes where I hadn’t learned what to pay attention to, or how to use the class well enough.

That’s part of my point. It just seems wrong that the right set of triggers can make an incompetent player into a competent one. Not a great player, maybe not even a good player, but competent enough to go zoning. Hey, I could be a chess Master, too, if you just let me use this computer program in competition.

Another part of my point is that what you call "the agony" was that that game was more intense, more exciting, and yes, I think ultimately more fun. But then, while I hate losing, I think if there’s no chance of losing, winning is meaningless.

moritheil wrote:he is not in the high-end zoning scene anymore

Trigger use increased over the years. There was a lot of it when I last did high end, so I’m betting there’s more now.

Ever since Soj 2, my impression has been that many people in groups were not paying much attention to the game. They were afk. Or watching TV. Or playing another game iaw. Or Web surfing. Or chatting on the phone, or over IM, or more recently on ACC. Or all of the above. They could do this because their triggers would handle the situation well enough. This happened more in xp groups than in zone groups, but plenty of it happened in zone groups.

I think that’s a problem. How often do you hear people recommend a game "Hey, you should try this game, you don’t have to do anything!"? Or "Hey, this is a great game, you have to play with other people, but it’s like playing with a bunch of computers."

*shrug* I’m sure triggers won’t be banned, so I hope game side changes can fix this. I doubt it, though, because even if 2.0 is complex and fun, there will be plenty of stuff that is triggerable and so will be triggered.
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Postby ssar » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:11 am

Todrael, that is one of the best game-related peices of writing I have seen on this forum in a long time. Well said.

Interesting stuff about your experiences on other MUDs too.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Apr 01, 2007 5:33 pm

Gurns wrote:
moritheil wrote:he is not in the high-end zoning scene anymore

Trigger use increased over the years. There was a lot of it when I last did high end, so I’m betting there’s more now.


I gather that we are talking about two different issues.

The reality of current zoning is that triggers are needed in order to function. I'm not really talking about whether they should be needed in order to function. My objection to a trigger ban remains purely practical.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 06, 2007 3:33 am

I agree that eliminating triggers would bring a lot to the game, probably a lot that we don't even realize we miss. However, it would be very difficult to enforce without creating your own client and requiring that it be used and even that would be difficult but at least possible.

A good triggerset with a crappy player is better than a great player with no triggers in quite a few cases if not most. There will always be time when the exceptional player saves the day where a trigger noob would make a bad decision or just simply fail, but there will be many more victories that triggers enabled.

I personally have derived a large portion of my enjoyment from writing triggers and bots, especially in the last 4 or 5 years. I don't know if I would play without triggers... beyond the fun, it's just so much typing. I'm too old to type 16 hours a day and not feel something in my wrists.

yea i know, i haven't played much lately.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Apr 06, 2007 4:40 pm

kiryan wrote:writing triggers and bots... yea i know, i haven't played much lately.


Apparently :p
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Postby grundar » Wed Apr 25, 2007 2:07 am

i seem to recall having more fun when all i knew was to make macros to rescue and aliases back in homeland when i started mudding. hand/eye coordination to the max. or maybe it was because i was playing a warrior instead of a voker in zones. warriors have all the fun.

exp will still be boring triggers or no triggers tho, hence botting.

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