Zone Love

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Shevarash
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Zone Love

Postby Shevarash » Thu Mar 29, 2007 4:32 pm

There have been a ton of threads in the past about specific zones and problems within them, but I thought it would be helpful to collect feedback on these issues in one place. This is important with 2.0 as the horizon as we begin updating Area content for the new code. We're not looking for isolated area bugs here, but rather zones (of any level) that you feel are so fundamentally flawed or unbalanced that they never, or very rarely, get tackled.

So, what zones are broken/unbalanced and desperately in need of some love? Please describe what's wrong with the zone and, if applicable, your ideas for fixing it. Please keep this thread civil - this is not about flaming the Areas sphere, but highlighting the issues that need to be addressed.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Mar 29, 2007 5:38 pm

wrist razor from muspel for one. Was downgraded due to being solo'd. Now it can't be (I'd better not tempt), yet the stats are undesirable still. Mobs were increased, etc.

Generally, also, eq that has ac+hp+dam is overall undesirable. It's better to just wear hp/ac or hp/damage (when those can be found)

Another thing that'd be nice is when you have to assemble a group just to do clouds, manitcores, etc just to SEE if a rareload has popped. Pulling teeth! Let alone, everybody will be bidding the rare item. Seems that's a band-aid approach to getting a zone done.
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Postby Birile » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:14 pm

Izan's

I'm sorry, but with the skill of today's leaders and the zoners they bring along, this zone is just far too easy for some of the items which load in it. Yes, it seems like pulling teeth to get some of those items to load nowadays, however the zone can be done in one pop sometimes and its difficulty just does not justify the quality of the items that load.

I don't have any ideas on how to make the zone more difficult, so I'll just say "nerf some of the eq."
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Postby Birile » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:17 pm

SPOB

Make the tokens rentable and put the quest mobs on the outside of the zone (with Nern). That way, if the mud crashes, the tokens are saved and can be quested directly after the crash so people don't feel they've completely wasted their time.
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Postby Disoputlip » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:23 pm

makeing them rentable would alone fix the problem with crashes.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:44 pm

Thilindel wrote:wrist razor from muspel for one. Was downgraded due to being solo'd. Now it can't be (I'd better not tempt), yet the stats are undesirable still. Mobs were increased, etc.

Generally, also, eq that has ac+hp+dam is overall undesirable. It's better to just wear hp/ac or hp/damage (when those can be found)

Another thing that'd be nice is when you have to assemble a group just to do clouds, manitcores, etc just to SEE if a rareload has popped. Pulling teeth! Let alone, everybody will be bidding the rare item. Seems that's a band-aid approach to getting a zone done.


There is no wrist razor in muspel. There is, however, a very nice hp/dam/ac bracer that I have worn forever and wouldn't have it any other way.


Fix GF ansi please.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Mar 29, 2007 6:54 pm

Hrm, don't ask me how I wrote muspel, when I was thinking scorps :P what a day..

But yeah, I meant scorp's razor. Pretty pathetic shadow of what it used to be.
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Postby Thilindel » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:02 pm

Kobold temple, and hell, EM itself. The new roads imported from the other mud just suck. So much pointless walking. I hate the area west of leuthilspar vs. what it used to be before the merge.

But as for KT, that ring is totally junk. It's a death trap walking into those 2 guardians solo. When you explore and find you need a group to save your corpse, it's definitely a death trap. Late at night, you basically lost yourself a corpse. Anyway, there are way better rings in the game that aren't quested, that you just whack and you're done.

I think the thing that truly sets DiabloII for being fun was having eq that procs other class abilities. I with there were non-tia stuff we could all get that did low things. Have rings proc what mageblade from spob does, etc. *shrug* Just throwing stuff out that I feel is fun.

Maybe even healer robes that proc anything from cure light, vamp touch, etc..but the higher quality the less chance it has to proc it. But make them like spob's mageblade for randomness on occuring.

Spob can fully spank and it's eq is pretty decent. Meilich kinda can have totally sheety loads, so would like to see the 'good' item load at least once per boot, let alone all the ruby types :P

Dragonspear is a place nobody even leads, so I'll let someone who has been say what's wrong..I'm just assuming it's all the demons and what not. I'd like to go tho just cuz it's different.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Mar 29, 2007 7:42 pm

Knight's Test is one of the worst-written zones in the game. Its so incredibly twinkable, and really not that challenging at all. If you want the specific methods of exploiting it you can PM me.
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Re: Zone Love

Postby Eshacin » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:42 pm

Shevarash wrote:... highlighting the issues that need to be addressed.[/b]


There are what, getting on for 300 zones in the game? Never mind if they're broken, where *are* they all? Would it really be a bad thing provide a brief description of each zone and a rough (or exact) idea of how to get there? The info in credits doesn't really help much. I've mapped loads of the mud, but I doubt I've found more than 25% of the zones.

Specific change: make the crimson death in TB load more often - been looking for it for near on two years now.
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Postby Botef » Thu Mar 29, 2007 8:48 pm

Meilech is pretty easy, and while I hate getting crap loads (like 3 in a row now too!), I think it gets done enough as is.

Dragonspear seemed fine the few times I've done it but the bids tend to be pretty weighted (lots of people bidding the same thing) which I generally hate to see. I think a lot of its dormancy is because of the last major spank and the difficulty of the CR. I suspect the nasty CR scared everyone off.

MD hardly ever gets done, which in my opinion is a damn shame since Myth Drannor is arguably the most identifiable zone encounter ingame from Forgotten Realms. Not sure what could really be done, I haven't done it in a few years.


Honestly, I think the problem with most of the zones that don't get done isn't anything inherently wrong with the zone itself. The problem really comes from all the bigger/better zones that go in and put out better rewards for less time(Izans/GF). Down grading the gear from these zones will just put them back on the mantle to collect dust like the ones that are there now so I'm really not sure how this can be fixed without throwing a wrench in the works. The calculator was a novel idea but it didn't work.

About the best idea I can come up with to see that these zones get done more, and to assure that other zones don't get hosed, would be to add eq to older, less done zones. This was done to Meilech and it greatly increased the amount of attention it got so I suspect it could work for other zones like CC, MD, etc.

Tweaking already existing stats to 'balance' things only upsets balance in other places in such a large environment and in my opinion doesn't do much in the long term to fix the the constant escalation of stats on eq in new zones. Having Tiamat ingame has at least set a ceiling of sorts but the gap is marginal and filling in.

The theme I see that assures zones get done is variable loads. GF/Izans get done every boot not just because of the spanky rewards and time, but also because the rewards change. Whether this is a good thing or a bad thing I dont know, but any zone that loads a variety will be > than a zone with the same load every boot (rares aside). I think comparing which zones get done the most against the ones that hardly ever do is evidence enough of this.
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Postby Corth » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:10 pm

What ever happened with choking palace?
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Re: Zone Love

Postby amolol » Thu Mar 29, 2007 10:58 pm

Eshacin wrote:
There are what, getting on for 300 zones in the game? Never mind if they're broken, where *are* they all? Would it really be a bad thing provide a brief description of each zone and a rough (or exact) idea of how to get there? The info in credits doesn't really help much. I've mapped loads of the mud, but I doubt I've found more than 25% of the zones.


thats an awesome idea would be great if you could type "info cormorian mines" and seea short description of the zone s(maybe one paragraph) and a general location

exa: the cormorian mines is located on the north border of the calimishan desert east of the vipers tongue outpost.

not looking for an exact map just a general location would be awesome


only problem i would forsee is that any new zones that went in would have locators as well and might take some of the fun out of hunting them
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Postby rylan » Fri Mar 30, 2007 12:01 am

Corth wrote:What ever happened with choking palace?


Nobody completed it for real as far as I know. Its a pretty cool concept, but I guess people gave up trying.
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Postby Drogga » Fri Mar 30, 2007 1:17 am

Jot invasion need to be toned down alil?
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:30 am

Botef wrote:MD hardly ever gets done, which in my opinion is a damn shame since Myth Drannor is arguably the most identifiable zone encounter ingame from Forgotten Realms.


MD doesn't get done because there are 2-3 items of equipment there which are from fairly difficult fights and are BLOWN AWAY by other easily obtained equipment. Lich proc needs to be drastically changed or removed from the game, it's fundamentally screwed up and is the closest thing to instant kill procs. Combined with a dragon in any form borders on a *bird* to the playerbase.

Botef wrote:Honestly, I think the problem with most of the zones that don't get done isn't anything inherently wrong with the zone itself. The problem really comes from all the bigger/better zones that go in and put out better rewards for less time(Izans/GF). Down grading the gear from these zones will just put them back on the mantle to collect dust like the ones that are there now so I'm really not sure how this can be fixed without throwing a wrench in the works. The calculator was a novel idea but it didn't work.


Again with the calculator. How many times does it need to be said that it wasn't even used for zones after SPoB came in. The idea that more "points" could be spent on items because only a few of them load/boot is a blatant abuse of the system as a whole and should have been negated by a responsible overseer. Of course if you give outstanding rewards for a zone people are going to farm it. Izan's, SPoB and GF(and muspel to a lesser extent) all give far too much overall equipment at such a high rate that it obsoleted other zones almost instantly. Nowadays the only reason people go to some of the older zones is to collect the same quest equipment that's used in 10 different quests for some reason(as if it would be difficult to differentiate the items for different quests).

Botef wrote:About the best idea I can come up with to see that these zones get done more, and to assure that other zones don't get hosed, would be to add eq to older, less done zones. This was done to Meilech and it greatly increased the amount of attention it got so I suspect it could work for other zones like CC, MD, etc.


Disagree. People(Klandan) complained and got 3 items added to a zone that didn't require any upgrade. Continuing to add equipment to things is not the right way to go. The current items that load need to be shuffled around and distributed properly to ensure that more zones are worth doing. Zones with random loads that are overbalanced for the zone because they only offer a few at a time need to be redone with stats commesurate with the entire set of equipment available, not just per boot.

Botef wrote:Tweaking already existing stats to 'balance' things only upsets balance in other places in such a large environment and in my opinion doesn't do much in the long term to fix the the constant escalation of stats on eq in new zones. Having Tiamat ingame has at least set a ceiling of sorts but the gap is marginal and filling in.


This is why current loads need to be moved around. 1 zone should not be giving out more than 1-2 top tier items for any class and definately should not be giving out top tier rewards for every class. Having a bunch of equipment come from a zone like Jot was good back in the day because almost everyone could get an item that was useful... maybe not the best item, but useful. That should be the model for other zones. Jot has long been considered one of the most balanced zones overall for fun/eq(until the recently overrewarding zones have come in).

Botef wrote:The theme I see that assures zones get done is variable loads. GF/Izans get done every boot not just because of the spanky rewards and time, but also because the rewards change....I think comparing which zones get done the most against the ones that hardly ever do is evidence enough of this.


Absolutely. There is another entirely different side of the coin as well however. Older zones have been getting tweaked to eliminate methods to do them and have made the newer zones all the more lucrative. Someone decided Crypts needed a change for what? That zone was generally accepted as being balanced by the pbase, yet it gets changed? Not to mention, there was(again) no posting of the change in the news, or on the forums.

Hulburg should be done more, but beholders aren't worth messing with.

Jot invasion should be done more, but it was tweaked for some reason.

Muspel invasion yields arguably too much equipment, but it was one of the best instances in the game when it came in(albeit loads too much).

ChP rewards were twinked and the stats leaked, then supposedly changed... who knows if it's worth throwing bodies at.

Tarsellian Forest done only for quests.

AP/FP could use balancing as far as rewards go. No one wants to bring 10-12 people for 3 items.

Brass is another venerable zone that hasn't changed and stats are still decent.

Skettrd-Gul... there is no mid-level game with castoffs from izan's/musp invasion being handed out.

Crypts... bleah.

Myth Drannor - remove the lich/dragon combination, swap meilich ruby earring w/ rosewood token.

Seelie - incredibly well balanced and liked zone. Probably the new model for zones based on difficulty/rewards.

TTF - another fairly well balanced zone, though there are some items that don't get done because they pale in comparison to easier to obtain items.

BC - remove the silly !female flag and other restrictions from this eq.

SPob/Izan/GF - Rareloads are fine, but rareloads that blow away every other piece of eq for a slot in the game? Bring down the stats(esp in SPoB) and move items around to other zones.

DSC - seemed fine when I last went there, ansi is damned ugly though :p

One other thing I want to mention which I think has largely destroyed the fun factor of this game:

ATD's and other nusances to "prevent" twinking. Please remove them and actually change the fight if it presents an issue to balance. There is no reason a few players with time and ingenuity should be punished for making use of the game features. If a game feature is so powerful as to unbalance things, change the feature(see muspel becoming !tele). ATD's are annoying, lame and are a sloppy band-aid for real fixes.

When you punish players for being creative no one wins.

This is all IMHO(and a rehash of years of other players thoughts). Take it as such.
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Postby Lilira » Fri Mar 30, 2007 6:25 am

Birile wrote:SPOB

Make the tokens rentable and put the quest mobs on the outside of the zone (with Nern). That way, if the mud crashes, the tokens are saved and can be quested directly after the crash so people don't feel they've completely wasted their time.


Would kinda mess up the storyline since they're the whole reason you go into the zone, to find/freem them for Nern.


Shev-

I honestly think setting a timer on pops for loading quest mobs in zones like GC and other quest item zones would be of great benefit. Really any mob in game that is required for a quest should have some kind of timer on it for those 125 hour boots....

One of the complaints was the crimson death in TB. How about instead of it loading at boot, its set for a random load... same with most other quest mobs that load at boot.

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Postby Demuladon » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:45 am

Fire Giant Village -> make 1 item there usable so that it's done by midbies.

The ultimate FBV item appears to have a 2% proc that adds 1d6 damage?
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Postby Demuladon » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:57 am

It's an awsome zone but.. Comarian Mines in terms of XP. At a certain level,

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Postby Shevarash » Fri Mar 30, 2007 2:35 pm

Great feedback so far, please keep it up. I would ask that you try and refrain from pointing fingers and assigning blame over zone imbalances or past issues - let's keep this impartial so we can move forward and address these issues.

I'm not going to reply to every thread in this post, but be assured that we are reading every bit of it, and will reply to specific issues when needed.

Thanks again for the great feedback so far.
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Postby Birile » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:44 pm

Bah, I referred to the soulgems as tokens--sorry, the tokens are what the quest mobs give you for the gems/heart when the zone is completed.

Disoputlip wrote:makeing them rentable would alone fix the problem with crashes.


Not quite--to be freed from SPOB you still need to smite the last fight. Making the tokens rentable but keeping the mobs on the inside still requires that you then enter the zone with the soulgems, complete the zone and then get your reward--not all group members would be up for that if the mud crashed 3 hours in, or something to that effect.

Lilira wrote:
Birile wrote:SPOB

Make the tokens rentable and put the quest mobs on the outside of the zone (with Nern). That way, if the mud crashes, the tokens are saved and can be quested directly after the crash so people don't feel they've completely wasted their time.


Would kinda mess up the storyline since they're the whole reason you go into the zone, to find/freem them for Nern.


Actually, I go to slaughter lots of mobs with 14 other nekkid killing machines (sex and violence!!! *drool*) and then get rewarded with trinkets afterward.

But if the storyline is the main concern, here's my response: change the story.

Or be given the option to give the soulgems, etc. directly to Nern who would then, in turn, hand you randomly generated items of no pre-determined class type which you could then bid out to the group.

Something should really be done to compensate for all of the lost time from a crash in this zone, in all honesty.
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Postby Birile » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:47 pm

Get rid of the exp grids. No one uses them (really not exaggerating), they're a pain in the butt when you inadvertently run into one and you're trying to find one of the two exits out of them, and they're just taking up room.
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Postby Birile » Fri Mar 30, 2007 3:51 pm

Underdark (as a whole)

Make it goodrace gateable/wellable/yadda yadda.

With the implementation of the neutral race allowing for humans to transport evilraces, or to transport to them, this is just a nuisance when they can't gate/well to someone who's in the Underdark.
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Postby Corth » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:13 pm

I second Birile on the exp grids..
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Latreg » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:19 pm

A general map would be a HUGE benefit imo, I'd like to see some zones I've never been too, would even like to learn them if I had a general idea where they were.....

Some zones need love in the form of reward creativity. It doesn't always have to be gear. Some random thoughts....

S.G. I like that zone btw
Pike Fishman tells you I need to infiltrate S.G. can you bring me things to wear so I can blend in? give boots,leggings,belt etc to Fishman. Fishman gives you a chest, you open the chest to find

1d6 x1000 plats
5 assorted gems worth 1d6 x 100, which are ! id so until you cash them in you don't know what exactally they are worth.
A token which let's you add to one item, one time only a +1 to hit or +1 to damage or -some ac or - some save of choice.....doesn't work will all gear read fine print for details.
you gain 20% exp!
you gain 3-7 skill notches

well you get the idea, would make many of these zones worth doing at any level really.


Oh and for crashes etc there is a threat on respawn/save points
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Postby Disoputlip » Fri Mar 30, 2007 4:23 pm

Not that I want to steal the thread to debate spob, but if you just makes the things rentable then mud goes down, and you got some gems, and you quest them next time you feel like doing the zone.

The only theoretical problem would be if you got the big gem and mud crashed, then you did zone again and would not be able to do x2 of same (eg. warrior).

Yes, putting mobs outside etc. would make it easier, but its a real change to the zone. Making 3 OBJ rentable would be trivial change.
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Postby Drache » Fri Mar 30, 2007 8:58 pm

Lilira wrote:
Birile wrote:SPOB

Make the tokens rentable and put the quest mobs on the outside of the zone (with Nern). That way, if the mud crashes, the tokens are saved and can be quested directly after the crash so people don't feel they've completely wasted their time.


Would kinda mess up the storyline since they're the whole reason you go into the zone, to find/freem them for Nern.


In a way, so what? I can't think how many times I've completely wasted my time on crashes in this zone. Just like seelie. Zones that have the booty at the end aren't very desirable for me any longer. I'm so tired of the mud crashing and the higher ups feel 'ah well, win some and lose some.' Great example in seelie was 2x in a ROW we got to the SE room from the king and it crashed. Wee, were we having fun yet? Hell no, I logged and didn't come back for a week or few. !Reimb policy typically doesn't do much for the pbase' morale.
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Postby Botef » Fri Mar 30, 2007 9:11 pm

Drache wrote:
Lilira wrote:
Birile wrote:SPOB

Make the tokens rentable and put the quest mobs on the outside of the zone (with Nern). That way, if the mud crashes, the tokens are saved and can be quested directly after the crash so people don't feel they've completely wasted their time.


Would kinda mess up the storyline since they're the whole reason you go into the zone, to find/freem them for Nern.


In a way, so what? I can't think how many times I've completely wasted my time on crashes in this zone. Just like seelie. Zones that have the booty at the end aren't very desirable for me any longer. I'm so tired of the mud crashing and the higher ups feel 'ah well, win some and lose some.' Great example in seelie was 2x in a ROW we got to the SE room from the king and it crashed. Wee, were we having fun yet? Hell no, I logged and didn't come back for a week or few. !Reimb policy typically doesn't do much for the pbase' morale.


Not to mention when you have to spend additional time cr'ing trapped corpses. Would be nice if some kind of policy for these instances could be created, I wouldn't advocate a full reimb. but something. I hate the argument that an unforeseeable, uncontrollable crash is something we as players should 'plan' for. Especially when your 20 minutes from finishing a zone and a certain player decides to test a crash bug several times in a row while your trying to form to CR from before the first crash they caused.../rant!
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Postby torkur » Sat Mar 31, 2007 3:37 am

TB crimson death is great as it is. I have found it 65 hours into boot this past month alone, you just need to learn how to search for it and get lucky. It does load at random times already. Everything in the zone is capable of loading at anytime and if you make that easier, it'll make the zone too easy to complete the quests for. I love the fact I can check it and find things to smite at ANY time during boot.

As for zones to tweak:

ChP: I've tried to help on this zone once. When the better players would rather form for tiamat and skip the zone, perhaps lowering the waves and levels of mobs to get it done, then upping difficulty as needed might be the way to go? Having a zone noone has attempted in months and noone can complete is silly risk vs. reward.

Seelie/SPOB/longer zones: The longer zones like these could use some extra "tokens" or something at strategic points. As annoying as it can be to lose zone to crash, I don't see that helping much unless it becomes a pattern on a zone. The tokens could be used in upgrade types for when the zone doesn't crash though? Kinda of like in seelie, you get 2 tokens and before the end it crashes. You can keep those tokens and turn them into a mob as you kill zone the next time for a "slight" upgrade. The zone will then have a counter on the next token. If you do the zone as normal, no upgrades and that instance of tokens disappears. That way, if someone attempts SPOB 5 times and it crashes each time, the items you get from the time you DO complete it are much better, but it took 5x the time to complete the zone. I honestly don't see much twinkability on this....if a group wants to spend 5 boots getting the "upgraded" SPOB warrior armor....why shouldn't they? They've spent Tiamat levels of time investment afterall.


Older zones:

Perhaps midlevel zones could be tweaked with other quests/upgrade mobs/etc again too. MS got an upgrade for timeline, perhaps a similar idea could happen for certain zones.

1) You have to make them worth higher ups going to for them to get done regularly with the current pbase. Perhaps shifting items around and rareloading is an answer? I kind of like the idea of doing vault, but instead of normal vault eq, a ruby earring from meilich drops inside the vault instead of all the normal quest items. Or doing all of citadel and instead of the normal things, an eldritch ring drops you had no idea would load? Things like this would make people do EVERY zone they know....on the off chance something nice might load. Max level of eq would have to be regulated but you get the idea.

2) Also, the possibility of turning it all the times from a normal older set of zones for one better item might make people do them as the long way to getting the gear they want. Say I can't get people to do BC for me to get the sleeves......but there is a mob in WD I talk to that says he can conjure a powerful demon to attempt to steal them for me? As payment I have to give him EVERY item from vault, SG, Citadel, TF, SF, FP, and Brass to do it. Literally this many zones. This way, if I have tons of stuff from these zones, I can get an upgraded item. If I don't......then I better get cracking at the zones I CAN do. With a decent list of zones to try and possibly having it choose a random item from the zone, you could see some of the craptons of gear in the game disappear too.
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Postby Yasden » Sat Mar 31, 2007 4:07 am

Finish the new Brass. Redo the planes (other than Magma), make them a lot more challenging and give them more depth and environment. Walking around in a 5x5x5 cube with some loop rooms looking for mobs and avoiding others is...blah.

Make the damned exit from CC into Gloomhaven actually work. Not like a rogue with the key couldn't sneak to that point from the entrance already as it is.

Revamp mid-level xp zones. IC, Mistywoods, Citadel (undead area outside - i.e. tuyeweras), HP could all use some love. Using AV as a building block might help (minus the eq hoarding high-levelers). That will help keep them out of the standard high lvl xp areas.

Make alternative methods of entering all hometowns. Bribery for keys, more underground tunnels, etc.

Get rid of hometown justice. Please? It sucks more than Maxler doing a kegstand. :P

I'll think of more later I'm sure.
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Postby Todrael » Sat Mar 31, 2007 1:29 pm

Make it possible (15%+) to fail at Tiamat. The joke after the last run was that if any zone takes longer than 7.5 hours, people will say, 'We should have just done Tiamat instead.'

Downgrade enchanted khanjari daggers (remove the +hp on procs, lower the +hit/dam). This item is the shining beacon of all that is wrong with Toril's eq. Use the experience to learn what not to do in the future.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Mar 31, 2007 6:45 pm

Abandoned Monastery - End fight is nice and fun. Should upgrade or do something a little more desirable with stats on ring of darkness and load it in a random load chest dealio with some other neat stuff. That zone is perfect for that.

Astral Plane - Nolacate RARES, and lots of them at low percentage load. All existing items should be nuked except for existing quest items. Upgrade mobs a little and upgrade demonskull helmet and/or add a seperate item that is of significant value to end fight.

The Blood Bayou - Downgrade difficulty of zone a touch and leave item stats the same. This one would make a great small group zone to do all the way, not just twinking first eq fight. Random chest would be good here too for end fight.

Brain Stem Tunnel - Reconfigure mobs for slightly better exp value. Upgrade some of the low level items that load on mobs there just a little to offer hit/dam/hp to some degree to further a lower level player starting out in the UD. Make quest mobs easier to talk to.

Choking Palace - Ptest this zone. Make this a little easier so people will be successful at least 50% of the time with strategy.

Citadel - Edit this zone to have less vaults. Thin out the mobs a little as to not take quite as long. Spread around some bigger fights involving a strategy of some kind so eq fights are an exciting change of pace from the repititious killing that is getting to them.

City of Brass - RARES. Either add some shops, quest mobs, and rares to city, or junk all those rooms. Remove the negative impact stat from amethyst ring and load it in a random chest with some other decent stuff. Djinn invasion?

Cloud Realms of Arlurrium - Not sure how maxpower stat will effect psionisists in 2.0, but as of now it is not what it was intended to be. Change earring of distortion to +40 mana instead of maxpow. Make medallion ac8 22hp 100 mana psi only and change medallion quest slightly to load the egg on grid on silver dragon instead so this isn't just quested because you can. Maybe add a couple outside items to make it an epic uber class item quest. Add a couple uber rares to grid that load nice stuff.

Comarian Mines - Make this zone follow the format of the rest of the mud a little more closely by not making god-like mobs. Replace said god-like mobs with actual mobs and fights involving stratagies that do not require throwing corpse after corpse at said mobs.

Conquered Village - Couple upgrades to lower-mid level gear. Rares of same quality added. Human invasion?

Cursed City of West Falls - Excellent example of what a good lower level zone can look like. Rares needed though.

Dark Forest - Need some lower-md level gear loading here. Rares. Maybe a quest or two in that one part.

Darkhold Castle - Another great example of what a good mid-level zone can look like. More quests and rares would be cool for this one as well. Some mobs could stand to lose a few levels for the quality of gear they hold. Some items could be downgraded, some upgraded. Should be more well aligned as a mid level zone. Cormyr invasion?

Defense of Longhollow - RARES. Decent common load lower level items.

DemiPlane of Artimus Nevarlith - Artimus and group needs to be a little bit harder, junk half of the random rewards and make 3 good ones.

Derro Pit - More rares. Upgrade fang of a giant snake to say 3d5 2/2 noproc range. Make beholder have something good to use and make him rare. Make demon 10% track.

Drider Cavern - Change stats on black and white robe to offer a -3 or -4 save or agil instead of int. Nice rares already, but make a couple more 2% nice ones too, one of which with a very nice item that rolls witha nice group.

Dragonspear Castle - Slightly less mobs to reduce completion time and redundancy a little. Load most eq at 75% rare to compensate. Load unique uber rares down in the bottom that people may possibly stumble on once or twice.

Drulak - Remodel fights and eq stats for more useful lower mid-level gear. Rares with nice mid-level stuff.

The Dusk Road - Few more mobs should carry some decent lower mid-level gear. Do this to all zones and nuke scardale so people can learn thier way around the mud, improve thier char, and get exp all at the same time.

Elemental Planes of Fire and Air - RARES. Can't stress this enough. Planes are an awesome place for rares. Few rares, couple uber rares that roll with a nice group. Thin out mobs a little more and upgrade them. Make some group, most not group. Make the pit fiend one of a few other 15%-20% rares and upgrade mask. Upgrade Imix and Yan-C-Bin, give them something nice. This is where godly mob editing should be applied, not Mind Flayers in CM.

Golem Forge - This zone is nice. My only problem with it is the time/risk/reward factor. Make the end rewards have one or two less items. Switch a couple stats from that zone from stats with some other zones of about equal value so it isn't generating all of the most popular class sensitive MR, HP, Maxint, Maxwis, combo stuff and get a nice nobits plain stat item or two in there.

Hive of the Manscorpions & Seers - Definately needs a few eq rares inside the main area of zone to compliment all of the fine quest ones on grid. Wrist razor should be upped slightly and become one of many 15-20% nolocate rares that load in various areas inside the hive. Make the inside of the hive !tele, get rid of the one way rooms, make patrols have an organized patrol route for wave effects in certain parts, and make mask on king 3 dam (+ohter stat). This has always been one of my favorite zones, and it could be modified to be just as cool as Izan's for people to want to do very easily. Seers just needs a couple eq balance changes. Change sandstorm mask to a nobits ac5 14hp -3svpet sandstorm eyepatch. Upgrade mantle of knowledge to have ac consistant with other cloaks.

Hulburg - Obviously players do not enjoy beholder changes. They will also most likely never enjoy the primary zones involving these changes again unless something is done about it. Whats not to like about very frequent instant death proc? Find a good medium on how it was before to how it is now so this zone will get some play.

Ice Crag Castle - Shroud of ethereal winds. Very cool item, except for the stats. Take the !ID flag off this one, slap 5ac more and 28hp on it, make it nobits, and call it a zone. Amulet of discord could use a change also to make it even remotely useful.

Izan's Floating Fortress - This is very nice example of a good high level zone. Takes about the perfect amount of time when done right, takes the perfect amount when you have to CR and abort. I think certain rares could be made slightly more rare, but other than that very nicely done. Good exciting fights fights, and good exciting rares. This zone gets an A+ in my book.

Jotunheim - One of the best of all time. Goes without saying. But it could use some end fight loving. And some uber rare loving. Ymir anyone?

Lost Treasure of Zaor - What is this?

Lizard Marsh - Very well written zone, like all Vhaerun zones. But, I think the last part should be a little easier as it was on Homeland to be consistant with the eq stats. Either that or up the stats a little. Couple more rares in zones like that never hurts either.

Lost Pyramid - Needs a couple more pieces of eq and a few rares. I should be able to look at someone, even if they are a noob, and be like 'wow, that looks neat where did you get that?' and they said they found it in some pyramid, or some forest, on some mob I have never heard of or knew existed. We need more of that.

Llyrath Forest - This would be an excellent spot to load some mid level eq and rares bearing it. Exploration to places like this for a mid level player should be rewarded with easy and decent gear and plentiful wusses to smite for nice exp.

Minotaur Outpost - Rares and eq.

Misty Woods - Rares and eq.

Myth Drannor - Very well layed out and well written zone. Just needs more dynamic fights with better ranging rewards. If you do take the idea about taking out some golem forge eq and putting it somewhere else, put it here. Just make sure the fight is bangin' and worth the eq. Also, this zone is absolutely huge. It needs a lot of low percentage rares, some with OMG rewards. The lower middle range rares that load soley for eq could use upgrade for sure too.

Myth Unnohyr - End fight is just a tad too hard for a mid level zone. The flamboyant pink silk pants could use a restring and an upgrade mightily too.

Necromancer's Laboratory - Purple robe covered with writhing black runes need to be changed for the times. 25hp instead of the int. Also, fix that tailisman thing right (summon 1 wraith, !rent), rather than making it !take so it only loads once and summons a decent pet. That was a fun. Rares are always good too (especially in 100 room 1 regular item load zones).

Cave City - Turned into quest item farm pretty much. While it still gets done occassionally for those reasons, I think the diamondine could use a little bump. Say up to 10hp or something. Nuke all that worthless skeletal, indigo, and crimson gear. Mid level eq has no business in a high level zone.

Neshkal, The Dragon Trail - Amushing rares with some decent mid-level gear.

Nightwood - Need to make that iron shield studded with topazes nobits and sv pet instead of sv para. Those zones with the risk of dying being pretty decent, and with only one item to bid, you gotta make that item something that everyone wants. More rares sporting eq.

Nine Hells - Avernus - Couple more uber rares would be sweet. Flayed halfling hide leggings need to do something for someone. HP is a good direction, but if you are going with +mana, it has to be a whole lot more than that to be worth anything to anyone. Same HP as a regular nice mage item and 40 mana is a good starting range of being worth wearing over mage gear. Good rule of thumb for mana items would be, take difficulty you are going for, find mage item of same difficulty, copy ac and hp, but instead of the save or stat bonus, replace with 40+ mana.

Nizari - Could use a few pieces of lower mid level eq out in the streets, and the existing mid level gear (such as shadow cloak) needs to be made a tad easier. Couple quests would be sweet for that zone too.

Orcish Hall of Plunder - First half is balanced really well, but the 2nd part I think could use an adjustment to make it a little more worth while. Very fun zone tho, people still do it just for fun. Mix some rares in there too, wow super good time.

Reaching Woods - More rares and eq.

Ribcage - Did a fairly good job of balancing it last round of eq changes, but think titanium ring should get maybe 5 more hp. There is a lot of midlevel stuff there too that nobody would ever wear for any reason. Should just nuke all of the insignificant stuff and post up your fights and quest mobs.

Rogath Swamp - By far one of the strangest zones ever. If that grid was intended to be the teleport room mess it is, that is by far the hardest thing I have ever mapped, then you should load some rares in there and put something on that stupid dragon turtle. Whats the deal with tanthorian longsword? Should make it ID'able. Its a weapon from end fight of a zone after all. Nobody uses weapons that are !ID, why put something in a zone that nobody wants?

Ruins of Yath Oloth - Major love needed all over this zone. Remove restricts from duergar mithril earring too so goodies can go check that zone out too. This zone needs a few more dynamic fights other than the end-fight. Main purpose of that would be to load a another piece of EQ. Whats up with the blue dragon helm? Put it on a better fight and beef it up, is a cool concept for an item. More rares. Drow invasion?

Oakvale Silver ring encrusted with a black sapphire needs a change to make it worth doing. I think thats a bad spot for yet another mage ring, but if you are insistant upon it being a ring give it a save or agil or maxint or something to make it somewhat appealing to ease the sting of the lesser HP. Rares would be neat too.

Tarsellian Forest - I like quest items as much as the next guy most of the time, but damn, gimme something else to bid on if I don't want any. I think the upper part in the !ground areas should all be made !tele and load a random chest up there at the end fight. Might as well put some ac on the grey-greens also before you put them in a random chest to make them more wearable. Rares.

Temple of Blipdoolpoolp - All that just for a badge? I was disappointed that such a cool zone could end in such repetative killing with no reward. That zonelet with the 50 (all in a row) doors, keys, and wuss mobs to kill should be nuked mightily. Considering the dragon-fish you have to kill eats your eq into his inventory and bitchlaps groups better than any ancient dragon, I would think much better rewards would come of that. Something GF-esque even.

Temple of Dumathoin - This is a very cool, mysterious, and well laid out lower mid level zone. But I think it needs more structure on the bottom level. The best item from there is probably the blue-skull rings, and the mobs that have them are too high level to make it worth killing when you would need it to wear it. Pretty much everything else from there except for maybe 5 or 6 pwipe level eq items nobody would ever wear for any reason ever and should be nuked and replaced with something on par with other zones of that level.

Temple of Twisted Flesh - The current layout of this zone is quite contriversial. On one side you have the anti-twink people thinking that there shouldn't be 3 dam, or 50hp eq that abundant for a small group to go get fastlike. On the other, you have the people saying its fun and we like doing this zone cuz we get stuff and all zones should be like this. I'm still not sure which side I'm on in this argument, but one thing is for sure. There are not many zones like this where you can get 3 very nice items with a smaller group in a very small amount of time. So obviously it is not balanced and it should be looked at, one way or the other.

Tiamat - Tiamat eq kinda has negative impacts on the overall balance of the mud the way it is divied out these days. There are a few folks who will only log on to chat and what not until its time to go on another Tia run. This says good and bad things about the game, but I would lean toward bad. With all of this talk of lack of balance and everything else, most of us overlooked the grand facilitator of the lack of balance. Don't get me wrong, I like Tia items and all, I just think they are handed out wrong. A 12 hour zone and 15 pieces of eq at once. Why not just make Tia load rare by herself, in all her glory and deathproccing, loading only 1 or 2 items? Let groups get as big as they want to fight Tia etc too. 40-50, whatever. There are other ways to distribute other artifacts in actual zones every so often, but I have already discussed that in another thread.

Undead Farm - Charred cloak covered with runic skulls. Interesting mid level item. If I already had pff I think I would pond it though. Think maybe stats should be redrawn on that one. Not exactly a picnic getting it, but its not really hard for 2 or 3 level 50 players. For the end fight of an upper mid level zone, I would expect something more useful however. Rares would be interesting.

Underdark - Tiny spider ring. Not sure why the orginal mob was upgraded to near godlike hp, then the ring was put on a eating proc mob, made rare, and downgraded. Thats what happened and all of those are still true of the mobs and the item. Downgrade overkill imo. Fix the drow, they were dangerous enough as they were, restore adamantium chainmail, and juice the spider ring back up to ac5 45ish so it still gets some looks from warriors. Rares. This zone takes up a nice little chunck of the actual entire UD. But I can't think of a single rare mob that loads anywhere in it. At least in the duergar settlement and around topside of this zone you should have some to make UD life more interesting. Make some ubers rare load down the shaft as well.


General Thoughts - Need more extreme rares. 2%'s all over the mud would be sweet. People would find new stuff all the time. Be it low level, mid level, high level mobs with enterage, whatever. This would feed peoples craving for more unique set of gear also, hopefully with nice stats on thier own %1 rare item etc. And how much work would it be to stop that item from loading and make a new one once someone found one?

Need to more closely examine zones, and the dynamics of those zones, including eq stats and compare them to all other similar leveled zones. Change things around, switch stats from this zone to that zone if you think it would be better that way. This is not really that hard to do for even 1 person with the proper tools, it would just take a while of fooling with it until it was 95% better.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:03 pm

A lot of the issues we have are because our implementation of "risk vs reward" and reward in particular is extremely limited.

Risk equates to time

Reward equates to equipment

Consider that there is NO inherent reward in any zone, the reward from a zone comes purley as equipment. If there is no desirable equipment in the zone what is the zone worth in terms of reward? nothing. Jot and Brass are probably the best examples of this. Furthermore reward value is determined completely by player's perception.

Brass was done a lot when Amy ring was worth something, as other rings came out and stats changed, brass got done less and less because the risk vs reward took a nose dive. The only way to fix brass' risk vs reward is to make it take small enough time that the eq is desirable or make the eq worth enough that the zone is worth the time.

And so we go into a constant upgrade downgrade cycle that has accomplished very little imo except consuming hundreds or thousands of staff hours and endless bitching from the players.

Because our risk vs reward system is so 1 dimensional, EVERY LITTLE THING makes huge swings in the equation. If a new piece of equipment obsoletes an old one, an entire zone may now be "worhtless". If a new spell makes a particular zone too easy the eq is downgraded or the whining for upgrades to other equipment begins.

We need more depth in our risk vs reward equation. Whether that is giving more dimensiosn to risk or to reward I think we need to do something. I think risk is always going to roll down to time because we are advsere to permanent character damage. So we should really focus on reward and in particular we should focus on eliminating some of the dependence on player's sense of value.

One thing we could do to is give independent value to equipment. Currently, equipment value is in what players will pay for it. Our economy tends to hyper inflate the upper end and everything else is "worthless". We have a eq calculator that supposedly provides an objective "value" for equipment. Use this to create a game mechanism where you can exchange equipment for points that can be used for something. Whether its restrings, guild halls, leaderboards or items, simply being able to get something out of that +1/+1 ring will make it more valuable and doing a zone of obsoleted equipment more "rewarding".

You can not make eq value completely independent, but giving the market some guidance would help a lot. Subsidizing the value of low end equipment will help keep old content valuable for longer especially if you can maintain a stable ratio in eq points to time invested ratio (which theoretically is the eq calcr). There is always going to be some major disparity of value because of the size and nature of the player base; we in general value a 2 dam ring as worthless i there is a 3 dam ring even if it only adds half a percent to our overall damage output.

Another thing we should consider is getting some inherent benefit out of a zone. Something as stupid as a leaderboard showing all the zones you've completed would create some inherent value to players without actually having any in game impact. Duris has these stones that drop after certain encounters in zones that reward you with "points" that can be consumed in a variety of ways. There is a leaderboard showing the points each character has acquired which again creates "value" that doesn't impact game play.

There are zillions of ways to create additional risk and reward, but as long as we continue to try and use a limited formula in the supposed interests of "balance" we are going to have difficulties. The best approach to "balance" that I have ever heard was provide as many options as possible ensuring that no one option completely dominates all game play.

This doesn't say balance every option, it says just make sure one option isn't the only best option. While that is implemented in eq diversity to some degree, it is not implemented in overall "risk vs reward" to any degree.
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Postby kiryan » Sat Mar 31, 2007 10:23 pm

Another thing is that trying to balance every piece of equipment in every zone with every other piece of equipment from every other zone is stupid. I'd much rather see every zone produce at least 1 piece of equipment that is highly desired (at the "level" of the zone). That would be "balance" to me and if it took everyone a similar amount of time to get their 2/2 bracelet wouldn't that be "fair" even if it takes 100 more hours to get a 2/3 bracelet?

You don't actually need to balance every eq every zone especially with our player culture that so higly values the top 1% of eq. Stop giving in to the people who whine for upgrades to equipment that is already hands down superior in every way on the basis of "risk vs reward". That 30 minute zone might be fun, it might be something a smaller group can do if everyone does it for the same reward whats the issue? Sweet spots are what make a many games fun. In the old days, there were lots of sweet spots, calishman hunter, chloracrida, tit ring, lusty ring... people used to race to these items.. it was fun and frustrating at the same time...

Do you really want to play a balanced game where the only currency is time? Where all rewards are comensurate with the time spent? You're eliminating a whole segment of audience that has too little time to "compete" in any way shape or form.
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Postby Lilira » Sat Mar 31, 2007 11:52 pm

Lost Treasure of Zoar is an elf-only zone on Evermeet. Sorry if this comes off kinda rude, but with the limitations of race compounded by the difficulties of the area, I think people just decided the challenge wasn't worth the reward in the end.

Granted, I do not think anyone has done it since the one time it was beaten to see if there are other rewards.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:10 am

So, basically, every zone on the mud? Oh my. Perhaps the problem is deeper than the way a zone is configured.
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Postby Kegor » Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:34 am

kiryan wrote:Do you really want to play a balanced game where the only currency is time? Where all rewards are comensurate with the time spent? You're eliminating a whole segment of audience that has too little time to "compete" in any way shape or form.


In high level zones, yes. At least you get to do any number of zones instead of the same new hot 3 zones.

And, I think most of us would opt for a lot more balanced and plentiful system of...

kiryan wrote:Sweet spots are what make a many games fun. In the old days, there were lots of sweet spots,
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Apr 05, 2007 11:45 pm

There's some good feedback here, but I have to ask...is that it? This is your forum for feedback on zone issues, don't be shy.
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Postby Yasden » Fri Apr 06, 2007 12:03 am

Fix the goddamn Ice Prison. :P

It has such great potential...if there were actually more there than just a single quest.
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Postby Birile » Fri Apr 06, 2007 5:33 pm

Did someone mention the horror that is the Choking Palace yet?

Hulburg? Yeah, we know you guys said to use another strategy but that may or may not be viable.

Why do I have to enter a frigging DOOR to get out of Beluir?? Fix the issue, already.

While I'm on the topic of hometowns, put some lovin' into some of them. GN/Calimport/Menzo have some cool quests, WD and DK are local hangouts, BG/VT have the auction--what about the others??? The fact that our characters have hometowns outside of these that I've mentioned is rather arbitrary as they're only spawn places when we die and nothing more. If that's the case, just let everyone choose WD or some other popular hometown as their hometown and be done with it. Right now it's just wasted space, frankly.

Scardale--help us Helpers help the newbies in a tangible way aside from just posting on the NHC. Speaking of Helpers and the NHC, why the heck do I have to petition to register each of my characters as a Helper? How the heck can I help when I'm playing one of my other characters who doesn't have access to NHC because it's not flagged as a Helper? Fix, please.

Evermeet--yeah, I know you guys said a LONG time ago that you were planning on building a LOT of content there, but... well, it's been a LONG time and ya haven't (or at least, ya haven't put _much_). So put some magical force fields up or something on long roads that lead to nowhere at this point. You're just pissing us off with the wild goose chases to dead ends. Easy enough to announce in the news when one of those barriers is taken down when you actually PUT something there.
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Postby Birile » Fri Apr 06, 2007 6:36 pm

Did you read Tasan's post with all of the suggestions for all of the different zones?

Ditto.

And, frankly, there's enough there to keep you busy for a little while. Don't be shy, get to it!
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Postby Thilindel » Fri Apr 06, 2007 8:41 pm

A straightforward need is to make the ferries and ships faster. Good one to point out is GH barge, or the ferry south of BG. It takes several minutes of hurry up and wait. What's the point?
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:09 am

Actually, Leuthilspar's Palace totally needs to be brought back to its glory. Treasure room's empty even.
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Postby Lilira » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:11 pm

Last time I was in there it was quite attractive. Didn't know it was open to the public though... When I was there it was for RP.

(Basically if it is I don't know how to get in. *laugh*)
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
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Postby Jhorr » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:21 pm

The issue of zone length would be solved if 2.0 could implement some way of saving the zone mid-way. In fact, it could open up a whole new type of zone where a group could actually go on a CAMPAIGN that might take a week to do, for example. Add a save feature, that preserves zones if the game crashes or reboots and we'll have much more options for zone architecture and playability.

How many people know someone that has quit this game just because 'zoning just takes too long'?
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Postby Lilira » Sat Apr 07, 2007 2:24 pm

Oh I like that!!

Lock it to the group leader only, though something would have to be done to prevent group leaders from changing if they go and die.
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Postby Corth » Sat Apr 07, 2007 3:50 pm

Noticing a common theme here..

Most of the comments here about zones are actually about the eq balance. Seems to me the zones are fine, but theres just too much eq out there, and the eq isnt balanced well within zones.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Marix » Sat Apr 07, 2007 5:42 pm

Frankly I agree with the idea on having more info about zones in general. Especially the zones general location. If your character has been to a zone, shouldn't you know it's location and how to get there? I do like the idea of trading in lower end items from a bunch of zones to get higher end items as well. How many of us have storage caches full of crap we haven't touched in years? How many of us have a full set of equipment from vault just lying around?

An Idea I was wondering about was collecting items that are similar and being able to trade them in for a better item. For example, rosewood disc and ruby earring are both maxwis hps earwear. Nobody is going to want/use that disc if they have the ruby earring. But, what if there was a mob who wanted all of the items of equipment from both the zones they load in in order to combine the two items to make a better version? Or maybe, you need to collect every maxwis hp earwear item in the game in order to trade them in for the final best possible maxwis hp earring. This would definitely make doing the zones with the worse eq worth it to everyone.

One issue I have is that doing a zone just doesn't feel epic to me. Lets face it, the reason D&D and Diablo are so much fun is your character is accomplishing something no ordinary person can do. When I do a zone on here as my cleric its...cast vit....cast full heal...scan the group...cast full heal....cast vit... blah. A trained monkey can do that. Sure we need to cast quakes or remove poison in certain zones, but we know which spells we'll end up needing as well. There's no mystery in the big fights at the end, we know the mobs we are facing, we know what spells they cast and how many followers they have. There's no need to change our strategy cause we know what to expect.

Why is it that player characters can't choose to help the enemy? For instance, a good race group attempts to enter a zone to raid the equipment. An evil group forms and goes to one of the boss mobs offering their services. They become part of that mobs group and help defend him. If they good race group wins not only will they have gained the loot they'll have met a more interesting challenge. If they evil group wins they'll be rewarded by the mob either in eq or some other favor(maybe a token to turn into another mob for something). Maybe this would be too hard to balance and implement, but it's just an idea. Maybe the boss mobs could hire mercenary mobs to change up the dynamic instead if we didn't wish to involve players.

I'm not sure if any of these ideas will help, I'm just throwing them out there in the hope that they might give someone else a really great idea on what to do. Something to consider is when I DM for my friends in D&D it's my job to try and screw them over as much as possible and it's their job to not only find a creative way out of these situations but rub it in my face afterwards. It's not about collecting cool items..that's the frosting on the cake..it's about overcoming that challenge. Corth might be right that there's too much eq out there, and maybe we are too eq oriented.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Apr 07, 2007 7:04 pm

Marix wrote:Frankly I agree with the idea on having more info about zones in general. Especially the zones general location. If your character has been to a zone, shouldn't you know it's location and how to get there?


If you(most likely) moonwelled or gated to a zone, why would you have any idea of where it was? Exploring is one of the things that used to seperate decent players from crap ones. The less exploring is done the more you rely on the 1-3 people online that actually know where things are to get things done.

There is a way for you to trade in lower end items for higher level ones already in the game. It's called "Auction".

Marix wrote:Why is it that player characters can't choose to help the enemy?


Because this is a PVE not PVP game. PVE is inherently less interactive and definately easier than PVP.
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



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Postby Marix » Sun Apr 08, 2007 2:14 am

What I meant by location was more a general area, not where it's specifically located. This would make exploring still important but not limit newer players who don't know their way around as well. For example, they give a general map of Scardale to new players. I would like this applied to the mud for when those players leave Scardale. It's true that if you arrive to this place through a well or portal that you wouldn't necessarily know it's location, however it could be reasonable to assume that one of the other members in the group had to run there and would therefore share the location with the other group members. That would be justification as to why it's location would appear on your map. If this is unreasonable, then I guess it's a dumb idea.

The PvP example I gave was meant as a suggestion to give players more to do in zones besides simply raiding the equipment from them. I agree it's not the best idea, I just threw it out there to illuminate the problem that zones tend to be one dimensional. I would more stress the point of altering the end fights especially so doing a zone involved more thought and strategy.

Thank you Tasan for pointing these things out, I should have been more clear with what I was trying to say.

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