not to detract from multiple updates on the colour of toilet paper in 2.0..
three questions:
1. Can we post estimated reboot days (just like multi, potentially slightly increased frequency). eg. Toril Reboot planned for each Saturday morning. We're cruising the 100 hours uptime stream again on a regular basis. I can't seem to get this attended to, so maybe a little thought for those of us who can't sit online all week waiting?
2. Potential multi in off peak times? Last night I had a group with everyone at keys online in it. And the group size was 4. There is no arguement which could suggest we could have done anything more productive than xp or twink something... How bout allowing multi on a more regular basis, if only to stop people going to play guitar hero until the weekend boot?
3. Can we reopen trade? In another attempt to alleviate boredom outside US prime times, trade would be a viable option. Surely there's enuff plat sinks in the game to make this even mildly feasible.
It's not prismatic sphere, but it could be almost as important..
Thoughts?
Bong, Tai, et al.
Reboot ETA postings and other shananigans
Warning - this is a long post. Sorry, I tend to ramble and try to cover opposite points while making my own.
I've been refraining from posting since I know it's pointless. They're either ignored, or now the answer is 2.0 is coming, so it's a waste to invest in a fix, and 2.0 will fix everything. And so I left a bit, and now I'm back a bit. And since Taish is my pal and he whining, I'll put in some 2 cents and then go quiet for awhile.
I don't think it's ever fair to question imms dedication, effort, and love for this game - as pointed out, it's free and they invest their time to make it better. But I think perspective and priorities aren't as efficient as they can be.
The question to ask when considering an idea should be, will this retain players? Increase activity/fun? What effort will it take?
*Personally* (and I perhaps some disagree) I'll use Tia as the major example. Awesome zone, I think delivered functionally as promised. But, I still believe that for that effort, kingdom code/guildhalls could have retained players, increased activity, and cost less effort. I haven't seen anyway stay, or come back (not just to do zone), b/c of Tia. Hell, after the loudest complainer did it once, "beating the game", he left.
This is a linear game - the only other thing to do is lvl and eq alts once you reach the peak. But, again, imho, this project would have opened up progress horizontally. And again, I don't see why this can't be implemented as a policy decision (low effort, for a chance at good retention and activity).
As soon as 2.0 was announced, the answer to major/semi-major ideas became that 2.0 will fix it. Okay - that would have been acceptable if 2.0 was right around the corner, but it's been a year, and still we have no timeline except that it's coming. But people are/were still playing, people are/were still leaving/left, and newbies are still quitting.
So we have something (2.0) that is losing players, maintaining activity (which isn't saying much), and costing a lot of effort in the meantime. Before taking on such a vast project, or even side by side & not just saying 2.0 is coming, a lot of other fixes would have helped a lot, again, imho.
The main one that come to my mind is the newbie experience, upon which I know Sarell & others had several posts that had several good ideas that I don't think would require that much effort, respectively, to implement. And I remember Teba had that long post about pbase problems w/suggestions that wasn't really touched. Just two of the more vivid and visible people that I recall posting stuff.
But anyways, lack of newbies staying can measured empircally - surprisingly we do get 2-3 true newbies every week - hell aren't we on CMUD now? But I can't even see 5 newbs who started in the last 2 years who are zoning atm. To really test this count if I'm missing anyone, actually the only one I can recall atm is a druid starting w/letter "I" this doesn't apply to, but:
*** If you are/know a lvl 45+ player who has started in the last 2 years, was a true newb (not returning player), and are "really" active send me a tell and I'll do/give you something.
"Back in the old days" - you can find groups of newbies to group with. And you know there was a good reward once you hit 45+ - you get to zone and do lotsa stuff. How do you know? B/c of all the shouts in WD, and you see groups running around, and you interact w/people who will talk about how fun it was yest. when they were in <zone>.
Step into a newbie's eye now, what do they see - nobody around their level, 25 out of 30 people on are lvl 46+, the other 3 are probably alts - so it's a game of catch-up (which is discouraging). They don't see much activity at all, and can't see it as all THAT fun even IF they reaching zoning levels.
And they're alone. Time to time everyone sees LFG's from newbies, but ofc, they stay alone. So they have to try grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding. Alone. W/no expected reward.
But alone - w/true newbie gear, horrendous mem times, etc. is just flat ridiculous. I see posts to newbies, "don't discount cure critic", "just find a tank to complement and you'll be okay" etc. is avoiding reality. Newbies are alone most of the time, and the xp and game as it stands isn't for soloers, and isn't for newbs since the last 2 years.
Is there a low/mid-lvl game? No.
When does the game start? 45+, when you can work on good quests, explore w/o dying so much, and zone.
Why? B/c everyone else is already lvl 50 w/good gear, so mid-lvl gear is worthless. And I die everytime I explore - so sadly that sets me back even more, so I don't/can't explore b/c then I have to bug high lvl'ers who CR me then go about their merry way. And the best xp is surprisingly the ones nearest hometowns - so awesome!
What's the point of lvl'ing as a newbie? To learn your class.
How long does it take to learn your class? Well, if all I'm doing is xp is up to 46+, not long to use it for xp.
So, skills in xp and zoning are different? Yes, and the only thing I really do xp to try to start the game at 45+.
How long will it take a semi-dedicated, semi-casual newbie to reach 45+? If I'm lucky enough to start out as a melee, maybe 3+ months. But newbies also like priests and mages too! So it'll take me maybe 6+ months for them.
3-6+ months to start the game, grinding & grinding not having any fun, and when reaching 45+ I might not even zone b/c it only happens 1x a day, I don't know any quests, and everyone has 2+ sets of eq all better than me... WTF?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shar/Shev/whoever makes policy nowadays, I'd say I challenge you to roll a new char. Try to get it to 40 w/o saying who you are. Get a new perspective.
So I see two solutions - make it more fun lvl'ing so it doesn't seem like work (which, yes I know 2.0 supposedly addressing, but this requires a lot of thought & is very subjective), or decrease the time lvl'ing. Decreasing the time would have been a viable, low effort solution in the meantime.
The question is, what is reasonable amount of time for a character in PRESENT time, not "OLD SCHOOL" "BACK IN THE DAYS", to start the game at lvl 45+? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I would reckon 1-2 months max.
Why? B/c, all the high-powered players already have multiple plvl'ed chars. They can already switch and swap for zoning - so having more chars faster won't make them more powerful.
Lemme digress a bit, since it was Torkur's eloquent response (I'm more long-winded) that made me want to give my prespective. So I'm going to ammendl quotes from his to finish this post.
"Currently, if you want to zone you have to get onto the mud at 6-8pm EST to stand a chance of going 85% of the time."
"If you want to zone, you have to be on exactly when 1x zone group/day forms, for a 85% chance of going depending on what alts you have"
- B/c, since I've been back, only really Lili leads. So much much props to her. I know several others can, but it's not really worth pulling teeth to be a leader currently, but she still does. She is truly an asset.
But, again, it's mostly the same small pool of people she pools from, part b/c they are on when the zone starts, but also b/c of the # of alts they have (among other factors).
If we speed up lvl'ing, those w/just 1 or 2 alts increasing their alt lists can also increase the amt of classes that they can choose from and their zoneability factor as well. So I don't see speeding up lvl'ing screwing them.
Which leaves newbies. I really don't think their skill level will really matter if all they're focused on is xp anyways, be it 1 month, or 6 months.
* So, in my eyes, if fixing newbie game was a priority, we might have increased retention/pbase, increase activity, and required a moderate amount of effort. Changing xp mobs give can't be all that hard. Lowering spell times can't be all that hard. Or better starting eq. Make it so they can solo un-painfully. Etc. etc. I haven't area'd, but I think tweaking this or implementing other suggestions Sarell & others have talked about would've taken like a week or something.
** Lvl'ing back then was fun & social. Leveling now is just pure grind.
My other whines of interest:
"Currently, if you need a rare you have to get it within the first hour of boot 95% of the time."
- No, you have to get it in 1st 20 min 95% of the time. And that's b/c the other 5% require multiple people to get at.
*** What can be simpler than making rares load over time? Must we twiddle our thumbs after the MUD's been up for 10 hours? One of very highest complaints of game atm.
Now addressing multi. For credibilty & not to brag, but I state that I probably gained the most from multi out of anyone. That said, I don't think unlimited multi is the answer. 1 or 2x a year is enough and keeps it novel.
Limited multi can be a low effort (just policy decision) way to increase retention/increase pbase and activity if done right.
For established player, they have the eq to tank/deal damage at same time, and their alt can just provide buffs. This provides them w/no incentive to group w/newbies (other than genorsity), and *drastically* increase their lvl'ing efficiency.
For newbies, 1st off, I doubt they would multi off the bat just b/c they aren't familiar w/the MUD. 2nd - they'd need to know and want to roll a proper combo. 3rd - to lvl properly, you need tank, damage, and buff/heals to prevent or heal back enough injuries. W/newbie eq, they can only do 2 out of 3, and still at a much decreased rate than established players. So, it might increase fun factor a little, which is good, but I wouldn't count on it increasing their lvl'ing efficiency all that much, and might even decrease interactions w/established players.
But a test run of 2-chars max maybe every other week might be good way to try it out at first, see how interactions go, and what other restrictions might be placed, such as only for zoning, only for xp'ing, only if you LFG first, etc.
Lastly, if you care to read this far, can we also address the issue of zone resets? Can this please be preemptive? While some might not care if they lose 2 hrs when zoning and it crashes, a lot do, and I've known people who've quit b/c it was the straw that made them realize what a waste of time playing it was.
Back then issues of god favoritism, and multiple zone groups, and tons of players all over the place, and muddied zone tiers would make a policy hard.
But again, old school vrs. present, I don't see it all that hard when it's only like 1x zone/day, imms should basically know of all the players, and the zone tiers are pretty set in stone. A policy like, if leader petitions and an imm is on, they can help w/reset if it's on the reset list and they past a certain point (I seriously doubt any leader would lie to where they reached/what they got so far).
And now zone list might look like, at least for zones that are usually planned, to recognize that planning does take time, take 4+ hours, and, c'mon, these only happen 1x/few months.
Tia - Well, imms usually monitor Tia
Magma - Cleared grid, at least 1 Dresk run to know grid was clear. (while even that's way deep and several hrs could be lost even before that point, no other way of measuring)
BC - 2 check points: 1) Cleared outter rings. 2) Before Bel.
Jot Invasion - After clearing each of the 3 shouters (not 100% familiar but this should also be a resettable zone)
Zones that are spontaneous, usually take less than 3 hrs, but is still a drag if it crashes. Though I can see more people against adding zones like this to a list, but just suggestions:
SPOB - 1) clear tendril area 2) before final run
GF - clear dragon on lower level
Seelie - enter king's area
TTF - before final fight area
So again just suggestions. But like I'd plan more BC or Magma trip but not atm since I know it might all be a waste of time if it crashes. And I also wouldn't go to Jot Invasion (what a wasted awesome zone) cuz 1) we still don't know if the changes actually shorten time and 2) already wasted like 10+ hrs on that zone before since it kept crashing and we didn't get jack out of it.
Oh 1 very last thing. SPOB rewards really blow now, in a relative sense to all the crap out there. So simplifying - it's like a zone that takes min 2.5 hrs, w/fairly decent spank probability which means you need to set aside 4 hrs for it. And then, to put it in terms of other zones, you have a rareload probability of 20% to get one single worthwhile item for 15 people, and maybe 10% chance to get another decent item for the other 14 people. And even those items stats are kinda nerfed compared to other zones nowadays.
Other zones that take 1.5-2.5 hrs MAX we can get minimum 1-2 real nice items, then chance to get 1-2 super nice items in addition.
Well I spent enough time on this rambling.
I've been refraining from posting since I know it's pointless. They're either ignored, or now the answer is 2.0 is coming, so it's a waste to invest in a fix, and 2.0 will fix everything. And so I left a bit, and now I'm back a bit. And since Taish is my pal and he whining, I'll put in some 2 cents and then go quiet for awhile.
I don't think it's ever fair to question imms dedication, effort, and love for this game - as pointed out, it's free and they invest their time to make it better. But I think perspective and priorities aren't as efficient as they can be.
The question to ask when considering an idea should be, will this retain players? Increase activity/fun? What effort will it take?
*Personally* (and I perhaps some disagree) I'll use Tia as the major example. Awesome zone, I think delivered functionally as promised. But, I still believe that for that effort, kingdom code/guildhalls could have retained players, increased activity, and cost less effort. I haven't seen anyway stay, or come back (not just to do zone), b/c of Tia. Hell, after the loudest complainer did it once, "beating the game", he left.
This is a linear game - the only other thing to do is lvl and eq alts once you reach the peak. But, again, imho, this project would have opened up progress horizontally. And again, I don't see why this can't be implemented as a policy decision (low effort, for a chance at good retention and activity).
As soon as 2.0 was announced, the answer to major/semi-major ideas became that 2.0 will fix it. Okay - that would have been acceptable if 2.0 was right around the corner, but it's been a year, and still we have no timeline except that it's coming. But people are/were still playing, people are/were still leaving/left, and newbies are still quitting.
So we have something (2.0) that is losing players, maintaining activity (which isn't saying much), and costing a lot of effort in the meantime. Before taking on such a vast project, or even side by side & not just saying 2.0 is coming, a lot of other fixes would have helped a lot, again, imho.
The main one that come to my mind is the newbie experience, upon which I know Sarell & others had several posts that had several good ideas that I don't think would require that much effort, respectively, to implement. And I remember Teba had that long post about pbase problems w/suggestions that wasn't really touched. Just two of the more vivid and visible people that I recall posting stuff.
But anyways, lack of newbies staying can measured empircally - surprisingly we do get 2-3 true newbies every week - hell aren't we on CMUD now? But I can't even see 5 newbs who started in the last 2 years who are zoning atm. To really test this count if I'm missing anyone, actually the only one I can recall atm is a druid starting w/letter "I" this doesn't apply to, but:
*** If you are/know a lvl 45+ player who has started in the last 2 years, was a true newb (not returning player), and are "really" active send me a tell and I'll do/give you something.
"Back in the old days" - you can find groups of newbies to group with. And you know there was a good reward once you hit 45+ - you get to zone and do lotsa stuff. How do you know? B/c of all the shouts in WD, and you see groups running around, and you interact w/people who will talk about how fun it was yest. when they were in <zone>.
Step into a newbie's eye now, what do they see - nobody around their level, 25 out of 30 people on are lvl 46+, the other 3 are probably alts - so it's a game of catch-up (which is discouraging). They don't see much activity at all, and can't see it as all THAT fun even IF they reaching zoning levels.
And they're alone. Time to time everyone sees LFG's from newbies, but ofc, they stay alone. So they have to try grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding & grinding. Alone. W/no expected reward.
But alone - w/true newbie gear, horrendous mem times, etc. is just flat ridiculous. I see posts to newbies, "don't discount cure critic", "just find a tank to complement and you'll be okay" etc. is avoiding reality. Newbies are alone most of the time, and the xp and game as it stands isn't for soloers, and isn't for newbs since the last 2 years.
Is there a low/mid-lvl game? No.
When does the game start? 45+, when you can work on good quests, explore w/o dying so much, and zone.
Why? B/c everyone else is already lvl 50 w/good gear, so mid-lvl gear is worthless. And I die everytime I explore - so sadly that sets me back even more, so I don't/can't explore b/c then I have to bug high lvl'ers who CR me then go about their merry way. And the best xp is surprisingly the ones nearest hometowns - so awesome!
What's the point of lvl'ing as a newbie? To learn your class.
How long does it take to learn your class? Well, if all I'm doing is xp is up to 46+, not long to use it for xp.
So, skills in xp and zoning are different? Yes, and the only thing I really do xp to try to start the game at 45+.
How long will it take a semi-dedicated, semi-casual newbie to reach 45+? If I'm lucky enough to start out as a melee, maybe 3+ months. But newbies also like priests and mages too! So it'll take me maybe 6+ months for them.
3-6+ months to start the game, grinding & grinding not having any fun, and when reaching 45+ I might not even zone b/c it only happens 1x a day, I don't know any quests, and everyone has 2+ sets of eq all better than me... WTF?!??!?!?!?!?!
Shar/Shev/whoever makes policy nowadays, I'd say I challenge you to roll a new char. Try to get it to 40 w/o saying who you are. Get a new perspective.
So I see two solutions - make it more fun lvl'ing so it doesn't seem like work (which, yes I know 2.0 supposedly addressing, but this requires a lot of thought & is very subjective), or decrease the time lvl'ing. Decreasing the time would have been a viable, low effort solution in the meantime.
The question is, what is reasonable amount of time for a character in PRESENT time, not "OLD SCHOOL" "BACK IN THE DAYS", to start the game at lvl 45+? Everyone is entitled to their own opinions, I would reckon 1-2 months max.
Why? B/c, all the high-powered players already have multiple plvl'ed chars. They can already switch and swap for zoning - so having more chars faster won't make them more powerful.
Lemme digress a bit, since it was Torkur's eloquent response (I'm more long-winded) that made me want to give my prespective. So I'm going to ammendl quotes from his to finish this post.
"Currently, if you want to zone you have to get onto the mud at 6-8pm EST to stand a chance of going 85% of the time."
"If you want to zone, you have to be on exactly when 1x zone group/day forms, for a 85% chance of going depending on what alts you have"
- B/c, since I've been back, only really Lili leads. So much much props to her. I know several others can, but it's not really worth pulling teeth to be a leader currently, but she still does. She is truly an asset.
But, again, it's mostly the same small pool of people she pools from, part b/c they are on when the zone starts, but also b/c of the # of alts they have (among other factors).
If we speed up lvl'ing, those w/just 1 or 2 alts increasing their alt lists can also increase the amt of classes that they can choose from and their zoneability factor as well. So I don't see speeding up lvl'ing screwing them.
Which leaves newbies. I really don't think their skill level will really matter if all they're focused on is xp anyways, be it 1 month, or 6 months.
* So, in my eyes, if fixing newbie game was a priority, we might have increased retention/pbase, increase activity, and required a moderate amount of effort. Changing xp mobs give can't be all that hard. Lowering spell times can't be all that hard. Or better starting eq. Make it so they can solo un-painfully. Etc. etc. I haven't area'd, but I think tweaking this or implementing other suggestions Sarell & others have talked about would've taken like a week or something.
** Lvl'ing back then was fun & social. Leveling now is just pure grind.
My other whines of interest:
"Currently, if you need a rare you have to get it within the first hour of boot 95% of the time."
- No, you have to get it in 1st 20 min 95% of the time. And that's b/c the other 5% require multiple people to get at.
*** What can be simpler than making rares load over time? Must we twiddle our thumbs after the MUD's been up for 10 hours? One of very highest complaints of game atm.
Now addressing multi. For credibilty & not to brag, but I state that I probably gained the most from multi out of anyone. That said, I don't think unlimited multi is the answer. 1 or 2x a year is enough and keeps it novel.
Limited multi can be a low effort (just policy decision) way to increase retention/increase pbase and activity if done right.
For established player, they have the eq to tank/deal damage at same time, and their alt can just provide buffs. This provides them w/no incentive to group w/newbies (other than genorsity), and *drastically* increase their lvl'ing efficiency.
For newbies, 1st off, I doubt they would multi off the bat just b/c they aren't familiar w/the MUD. 2nd - they'd need to know and want to roll a proper combo. 3rd - to lvl properly, you need tank, damage, and buff/heals to prevent or heal back enough injuries. W/newbie eq, they can only do 2 out of 3, and still at a much decreased rate than established players. So, it might increase fun factor a little, which is good, but I wouldn't count on it increasing their lvl'ing efficiency all that much, and might even decrease interactions w/established players.
But a test run of 2-chars max maybe every other week might be good way to try it out at first, see how interactions go, and what other restrictions might be placed, such as only for zoning, only for xp'ing, only if you LFG first, etc.
Lastly, if you care to read this far, can we also address the issue of zone resets? Can this please be preemptive? While some might not care if they lose 2 hrs when zoning and it crashes, a lot do, and I've known people who've quit b/c it was the straw that made them realize what a waste of time playing it was.
Back then issues of god favoritism, and multiple zone groups, and tons of players all over the place, and muddied zone tiers would make a policy hard.
But again, old school vrs. present, I don't see it all that hard when it's only like 1x zone/day, imms should basically know of all the players, and the zone tiers are pretty set in stone. A policy like, if leader petitions and an imm is on, they can help w/reset if it's on the reset list and they past a certain point (I seriously doubt any leader would lie to where they reached/what they got so far).
And now zone list might look like, at least for zones that are usually planned, to recognize that planning does take time, take 4+ hours, and, c'mon, these only happen 1x/few months.
Tia - Well, imms usually monitor Tia
Magma - Cleared grid, at least 1 Dresk run to know grid was clear. (while even that's way deep and several hrs could be lost even before that point, no other way of measuring)
BC - 2 check points: 1) Cleared outter rings. 2) Before Bel.
Jot Invasion - After clearing each of the 3 shouters (not 100% familiar but this should also be a resettable zone)
Zones that are spontaneous, usually take less than 3 hrs, but is still a drag if it crashes. Though I can see more people against adding zones like this to a list, but just suggestions:
SPOB - 1) clear tendril area 2) before final run
GF - clear dragon on lower level
Seelie - enter king's area
TTF - before final fight area
So again just suggestions. But like I'd plan more BC or Magma trip but not atm since I know it might all be a waste of time if it crashes. And I also wouldn't go to Jot Invasion (what a wasted awesome zone) cuz 1) we still don't know if the changes actually shorten time and 2) already wasted like 10+ hrs on that zone before since it kept crashing and we didn't get jack out of it.
Oh 1 very last thing. SPOB rewards really blow now, in a relative sense to all the crap out there. So simplifying - it's like a zone that takes min 2.5 hrs, w/fairly decent spank probability which means you need to set aside 4 hrs for it. And then, to put it in terms of other zones, you have a rareload probability of 20% to get one single worthwhile item for 15 people, and maybe 10% chance to get another decent item for the other 14 people. And even those items stats are kinda nerfed compared to other zones nowadays.
Other zones that take 1.5-2.5 hrs MAX we can get minimum 1-2 real nice items, then chance to get 1-2 super nice items in addition.
Well I spent enough time on this rambling.
1) How about more often reboots? I could do that easier, and maybe even set a time of day to reboot every weekday.
2) I'll let Shar speak to this, but my opinion is that allowing multiplay (other than on rare 'reward' occasions) is the start of a very slippery slope that we don't want to start down.
3) Trade is completely broken, and doesn't even function with all of the changes to the code base since it was removed. Sorry. :/
2) I'll let Shar speak to this, but my opinion is that allowing multiplay (other than on rare 'reward' occasions) is the start of a very slippery slope that we don't want to start down.
3) Trade is completely broken, and doesn't even function with all of the changes to the code base since it was removed. Sorry. :/
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
How do you determine when the best time to reboot is if you do it EVERY day?
Certain time zones would benefit if it is done early AM, certain others at different times .. no way to please everyone .. I'd say more along the lines of a set up time to reboot would be easier to maange with less "it's not fair to this group or that group" .. ie: reboot if mud has been up over 48 hrs and a certain percentage of zones have been done .. if not send a global out "hey we'd reboot if more than 2% of the zones have been done" .. something like that would be actually plannable by all time zones (log in, see mud has been up 35 hrs, ok i know it will boot in 13 or so hours providing stuff is getting done)
I truly don't envy you, Shev .. having to deal with all our complaints PLUS feeding Orca? *grin*
on a lighter note ..
where are the baby pics!!!
Certain time zones would benefit if it is done early AM, certain others at different times .. no way to please everyone .. I'd say more along the lines of a set up time to reboot would be easier to maange with less "it's not fair to this group or that group" .. ie: reboot if mud has been up over 48 hrs and a certain percentage of zones have been done .. if not send a global out "hey we'd reboot if more than 2% of the zones have been done" .. something like that would be actually plannable by all time zones (log in, see mud has been up 35 hrs, ok i know it will boot in 13 or so hours providing stuff is getting done)
I truly don't envy you, Shev .. having to deal with all our complaints PLUS feeding Orca? *grin*
on a lighter note ..
where are the baby pics!!!
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."
-Italian Proverb
-Italian Proverb
-
Adriorn Darkcloak
- Sojourner
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm
Shevarash wrote:2) I'll let Shar speak to this, but my opinion is that allowing multiplay (other than on rare 'reward' occasions) is the start of a very slippery slope that we don't want to start down.
Can you elaborate on what you mean please? We might just not be realizing some obvious potential problem with this that you as a forger have.
But here's my truthful, practical, day to day experience nowadays, just so that perhaps you can understand why people are pitching this. You can also see Torkur's post after mine on the multi thread.
I log on at 8pm EST. Lili is already zoning with a full group (thankfully). There's 11-13 other people online, 4-5 are grouped, 3-4 are perm-AFK. If I wanted to try forming and leading my own group, I'd have a possible 4-5 people to zone with, 1-2 of those from my own guild. We could do, uh, citadel? Snag some item from a rareload in GC, GN, etc. that someone needs? After 1hr doing that, then what?
So like Torkur said, since we were eating dinner with our respective families, or getting home from work, or whatever, we missed getting zone time and good items. This is not the mud's fault, and definitely not Lili's fault. This is the current situation and extremely low pbase, period. We had to settle for some random quest item from a rareload (obviously nothing hard), or some baby zone like TM (items that end up getting auctioned anyways).
For the past five weeks I've used that time to explore & map zones that no one goes to because they have nothing, or one seriously sub-par item. I did it just to have a more complete zmud map, that's about it. Some days at practice skills that I'd never use just to max them for no real reason. Some days I'd xp with two other people at CM or pship, but I honestly can't take too much of that. Sometimes we'd help newbs level, other times even the newbs were AFK.
Time passes, Lili finished leading her zone, say 10pm-11pm EST, and no more zoning goes on. Pbase drops to like 15 players, counting the perm-afkers. This is what Tai's post talks about.
Now introduce multi. Not unlimited multi, not daily multi. One (?) day(s) a week, each player can log in ONE alt.
Now, with those 4-5 players that weren't grouped while someone else was leading, I can actually get a party of 8-10 characters to do a better zone. Hell, we could xp one alt each at a faster rate. The bottom line, it's controlled, it's restricted, but it's SOMETHING that gives players like myself (and all the others that have posted, and many that don't even post here) the OPPORTUNITY to do something instead of going AFK or mapping xp grids. Players who would/do normally log off immediately, suddenly have the chance to zone and play. Players who were RPing and are now finished could now do something else instead of logging off. This could be done while Lili's group was zoning, this could be done at 2am EST, this could be done at 8am EST. Newbs could do this IF THEY WANTED, to help level themselves faster.
So someone will reply: "yeah but then Lili can lead her zone with only 7 players, each with one alt!" Yes, correct. And? Then Teba, or Nerox, or Ifin, or myself (scary) could lead a zone with the remaining players. You know, more than one group zoning at a time. More equipment for more people instead of the same group of people. More happy people.
The idea is that people would play, people would interact, people would have a reason not to go afk, practice 1h misc at mastiff, and/or quit.
If I missed some obvious pitfall with this, please inform me. I always enjoy learning and seeing things from more than one angle.
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Adriorn Darkcloak
- Sojourner
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm
Dalar wrote:Every day? Wouldn't that suck for anyone who's doing GC/barbarian town rares?
I've been looking for a rareload in barb towns for 2 months. IF it's loaded, it's been insta-killed. I check each boot, at boot, at 20hrs, at 50hrs, you name it. So yeah, each day would be disastrous for rares and zoning as well.
Sorry for not including this in my previous post, completely forgot.
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Lilithelle
- Sojourner
- Posts: 230
- Joined: Wed Oct 10, 2001 5:01 am
- Location: Vancouver, BC, Canada
- Contact:
I don't read the bbs, I was directed to this post. I'm thinking regular reboots would be nice. Maybe every 64 hours uptime, (3 days -8 hours) it would occur at different times of the day on different days so wouldn't always be when aussi's are asleep or europe is asleep. And being predictable we could plan zoning around it.
Someone wrote two zones in which rares load with equal probability no matter the uptime. Someone wrote a zone designed for 45+ players that only allows 7 people to enter, its meant to be done by a small group. Most of these problems can be solved if people would write more zones to address the muds current needs. I'm planning on writing a new zone with lots of quests for lowbies so they can do quests and learn the mud at the same time. Get busy people mud will be as good as we make it.
Lilithelle
Someone wrote two zones in which rares load with equal probability no matter the uptime. Someone wrote a zone designed for 45+ players that only allows 7 people to enter, its meant to be done by a small group. Most of these problems can be solved if people would write more zones to address the muds current needs. I'm planning on writing a new zone with lots of quests for lowbies so they can do quests and learn the mud at the same time. Get busy people mud will be as good as we make it.
Lilithelle
thankyou for your input both shev and other colleagues. I appreciate that a bitch whine that i write at midnight when frustrated may not be the most constructive frame of mind from which to do so...
anyway..
1. The set reboot time is a glorious idea, and personally i'm somewhere between lili's suggestion and your initial rejoinder... once a day (while part of me that quests thinks that would be like australia winning the world cup)...it's just too frequent... 3 days... it's starting to fray my sanity... So i'm suggesting the logical meeting ground... 48 hours!! I'm not sure if i put it somewhere else, but i still think the idea of setting the mud to autoreboot at 48 hours..with globals announcing the fact 5, 2, 1 hour beforehand etc, would be great....AND perhaps an item quest..that DOES take a full zone group...to keep the mud up for an additional 24 hours... ie. If people wanted to do Tia, Magma, BC etc and had planned for it...they could do the quest...the mud clocks into overtime, and everyone else is still aware that the reboot will occur no longer than 24 hours away. I'm sure it could be tweaked to sound a little more authentic (eg. The group finishes boss fight and activates some sort of eclipse...blah blah.... you get the idea).
What do you think?
anyway..
1. The set reboot time is a glorious idea, and personally i'm somewhere between lili's suggestion and your initial rejoinder... once a day (while part of me that quests thinks that would be like australia winning the world cup)...it's just too frequent... 3 days... it's starting to fray my sanity... So i'm suggesting the logical meeting ground... 48 hours!! I'm not sure if i put it somewhere else, but i still think the idea of setting the mud to autoreboot at 48 hours..with globals announcing the fact 5, 2, 1 hour beforehand etc, would be great....AND perhaps an item quest..that DOES take a full zone group...to keep the mud up for an additional 24 hours... ie. If people wanted to do Tia, Magma, BC etc and had planned for it...they could do the quest...the mud clocks into overtime, and everyone else is still aware that the reboot will occur no longer than 24 hours away. I'm sure it could be tweaked to sound a little more authentic (eg. The group finishes boss fight and activates some sort of eclipse...blah blah.... you get the idea).
What do you think?
ATM, there's no real difference between an uptime of 10 hrs and uptime of 80 hrs unless you're in the game for a couple of well written rares, like GC/Musp. Why? B/c all the rares are done in 1st hr or so anyways. And, even at 80 hrs, not even all the top tier zones are done.
So to say the "fix" will be to put reboots at around 45 hrs, effectively doubles the rare load rate, and here's the new zoning schedule:
GF, Hulburg, reboot, Hulburg, GF, reboot, Hulburg, Izan's, reboot, GF, Izan's, reboot, Seelie, Hulburg, reboot, yadda yadda
And that 7 group zone, yes it's awesome to have that alternative, etc. But the thing is, those kind of stuff kind of target the more established players, who can draw from a group of players to explore etc (ie guilded people).
We need to focus on retention, on getting newbies to 45+, and including newly minted 45'ers in groups, activites, etc. Otherwise even when they reach zoning levels, it's really discouraging to have to sit around WD *STILL*.
I know this from personal exp. I started when pbase was at like 100 maybe, a warrior, and even when I reached 50 and didn't get invited and had to sit around, yeah I thought it was lame and felt like quitting. Sure I rerolled an enchanter and luckily did OK, but I know how it felt.
And I still see some people who are zoneable, esp. evils and non-guilded, who even if they are zoneable, aren't a part of the activities. And those are the people who are likely to quit unless included. Teflor wrote a post a long time ago about this which surprisngly enough I agreed with.
So to say the "fix" will be to put reboots at around 45 hrs, effectively doubles the rare load rate, and here's the new zoning schedule:
GF, Hulburg, reboot, Hulburg, GF, reboot, Hulburg, Izan's, reboot, GF, Izan's, reboot, Seelie, Hulburg, reboot, yadda yadda
And that 7 group zone, yes it's awesome to have that alternative, etc. But the thing is, those kind of stuff kind of target the more established players, who can draw from a group of players to explore etc (ie guilded people).
We need to focus on retention, on getting newbies to 45+, and including newly minted 45'ers in groups, activites, etc. Otherwise even when they reach zoning levels, it's really discouraging to have to sit around WD *STILL*.
I know this from personal exp. I started when pbase was at like 100 maybe, a warrior, and even when I reached 50 and didn't get invited and had to sit around, yeah I thought it was lame and felt like quitting. Sure I rerolled an enchanter and luckily did OK, but I know how it felt.
And I still see some people who are zoneable, esp. evils and non-guilded, who even if they are zoneable, aren't a part of the activities. And those are the people who are likely to quit unless included. Teflor wrote a post a long time ago about this which surprisngly enough I agreed with.
Last edited by Ifin on Sat Aug 18, 2007 12:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Adriorn Darkcloak
- Sojourner
- Posts: 1292
- Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2003 7:11 pm
If you choose a set pattern to reboot, you need to make it a more random number. 64 hours is good, but it will continue to cycle at 8am, 4 pm, 12am depending on the day unless a crash changes this pattern slightly.
Choose something like 61 hours.....that way, it will cycle 12am, 5am,10am,3pm, 8pm, 1am, etc and eventually EVERYONE can be there for a boot at their own peak time.
Choose something like 61 hours.....that way, it will cycle 12am, 5am,10am,3pm, 8pm, 1am, etc and eventually EVERYONE can be there for a boot at their own peak time.
I like the way I had the reboot times worked out. Perfection even to time zoning and rare hunting around for anyone and anywhere in the world.
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19404
http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19404
No matter what a set reboot time is, it'd be fairly random .. we do still have the occasional crash .. so the timer would be reset at crash, also be reset when a coder needs to reboot to institute new code ..
whether it be 2 days, 2.5 days, whatever .. it is still a good idea, but i think daily is a bit excessive
whether it be 2 days, 2.5 days, whatever .. it is still a good idea, but i think daily is a bit excessive
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."
-Italian Proverb
-Italian Proverb
Can folks start suggesting what can be done for 1) retention of new
players and 2) retention of current players?
So far reading thru Lili suggested one good idea which is content
specifically targeted for newbies.
My suggestion for the multi-thing... Mebbe design a zone where u CAN
multi... shrug. At least at wee hours u can still xp in that zone
or quest or whatever ... but only in that zone. It can even be a newbie
zone or mid level zone.
That might kinda make newbie learning experience easier too as they
can test different classes that they have... but that is my suggestion
for retentioning new players.
I have no idea as yet for retentioning of current players tho... mebbe
others have ideas for the imms?
Cheers
players and 2) retention of current players?
So far reading thru Lili suggested one good idea which is content
specifically targeted for newbies.
My suggestion for the multi-thing... Mebbe design a zone where u CAN
multi... shrug. At least at wee hours u can still xp in that zone
or quest or whatever ... but only in that zone. It can even be a newbie
zone or mid level zone.
That might kinda make newbie learning experience easier too as they
can test different classes that they have... but that is my suggestion
for retentioning new players.
I have no idea as yet for retentioning of current players tho... mebbe
others have ideas for the imms?
Cheers
I think I did if anyone made it through my post. Lemme clarify my points:
Retention of new players:
I differentiated between "old school" and current situation. Why newbies won't/can't explore, why grinding to zoning isn't as attractive as before, and - no groups, leading to when does the game actually start? That's when you can quest/explore/zone = lvl 45ish+.
There's all sorts of other problems if that isn't a basis for evaluation - ie if you try to argue that there actually is a low-mid lvl game.
You can either make low-mid more fun, or "more" fast, to get to the actual game.
More fun would be zones liks A/V - that's about the only mid-level zone that is worthwhile. But who does A/V? High level twinks. And designing zones like that takes lotsa time etc.
As for more suggestions - everything's already been suggested before and ignored.
Again, ie, more fun would be not just xp'ing in BGR/DS/MT/CM. But why do we? I went to IC the other day w/my necro I'm lvl'ing - xp sucks balls. I get more xp/hr doing "easy" mobs on BGR than "lucky/mad" mobs in IC. So does HP. So does Tower. And those zones are interesting to learn. They have aggros. They have assisters. They form a basis for higher lvl zoning.
** The safest, closest, environmentally-boring, non-inductive to learning xp zones give the MOST xp, & most efficient xp.
So even on the basis of levelling we have failed.
Adding more fun would be like WoW - where we can do mini-quests for xp , b/c low-mid quests for eq aren't worth it (b/c mid-high eq is just given away). That's been suggested already too.
Etc. etc. Suggestions *have* been made. Maybe not reiterated in this thread, but do a simple search. My new one is just to say 'f' it and make lvl'ing faster. Cut it down from 3-6 months to start the game, to 1-2 months, and I think I provided ample reasoning.
High level retention? Only thing you can do is increase vertical progress (ie new zones, new eq, more levels) - wow, that's what even WoW does!
Or - omg, open up horizontal progression w/kingdom code/guild hall!!!!!
** More activity = more retention as well, which is where the multi debate leads too.
Retention of new players:
I differentiated between "old school" and current situation. Why newbies won't/can't explore, why grinding to zoning isn't as attractive as before, and - no groups, leading to when does the game actually start? That's when you can quest/explore/zone = lvl 45ish+.
There's all sorts of other problems if that isn't a basis for evaluation - ie if you try to argue that there actually is a low-mid lvl game.
You can either make low-mid more fun, or "more" fast, to get to the actual game.
More fun would be zones liks A/V - that's about the only mid-level zone that is worthwhile. But who does A/V? High level twinks. And designing zones like that takes lotsa time etc.
As for more suggestions - everything's already been suggested before and ignored.
Again, ie, more fun would be not just xp'ing in BGR/DS/MT/CM. But why do we? I went to IC the other day w/my necro I'm lvl'ing - xp sucks balls. I get more xp/hr doing "easy" mobs on BGR than "lucky/mad" mobs in IC. So does HP. So does Tower. And those zones are interesting to learn. They have aggros. They have assisters. They form a basis for higher lvl zoning.
** The safest, closest, environmentally-boring, non-inductive to learning xp zones give the MOST xp, & most efficient xp.
So even on the basis of levelling we have failed.
Adding more fun would be like WoW - where we can do mini-quests for xp , b/c low-mid quests for eq aren't worth it (b/c mid-high eq is just given away). That's been suggested already too.
Etc. etc. Suggestions *have* been made. Maybe not reiterated in this thread, but do a simple search. My new one is just to say 'f' it and make lvl'ing faster. Cut it down from 3-6 months to start the game, to 1-2 months, and I think I provided ample reasoning.
High level retention? Only thing you can do is increase vertical progress (ie new zones, new eq, more levels) - wow, that's what even WoW does!
Or - omg, open up horizontal progression w/kingdom code/guild hall!!!!!
** More activity = more retention as well, which is where the multi debate leads too.
High level retention? Only thing you can do is increase vertical progress (ie new zones, new eq, more levels) - wow, that's what even WoW does!
lol get naked and do spob then tiamat.
lol get naked and do spob then tiamat.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
I dont completely agree with Ifin. I mostly agree with him, however.
The point where I disagree with him is 'there is no low-mid game.'
There most certaintly is, and it is fun. Pava and I and others explored it mightily back in the old 'pwipers' experiment, and it was fun... but we did run into problems, which I did post mightily about, and which, sadly, never really got much attention.
Basically, there is a ton of fun to be had exploring and working out how the world is... But yeah, you need a few friends, and on this point, I do most certaintly agree with Ifin... current pbase situation is killing newbies.
However, if you can find these friends, you run into the following problems..
1. Scardale, its a complete diaperwalk with way over the top quests which propels people into 20th level with way too easily had gear (cuz all the alts will just explain the quests to you), and when you are done here, you are suddenly tossed into the real world of, OH MY GOD, this is so slow and much much harder. Scardale should be smitten from the face of Toril... which leads us to the next point..
2. Once you are level 20+, you will find that there is almost NO reward for exploring, no matter how far you travel, except for hitting the few points of retarded supergrind XP mobs. (Pava and I were using our nearly encylopediac knowledge of the mud to basically try everything out.) Quests are retardedly underpowered compared to anything that was handed to you in scardale, (and compared to anything that would actually increase your power level), and mobs give basically ZERO xp, unless you find the right mobs in the right cheesed out over the top xp zones. There is NO balance here, nor is there any semblance of linear power progression for an emerging character.
So basically, delete scardale, or scale it down bigtime, and fix the real world so that you can level up to tenth or so quicly, scardale style, but after that you begin on your journey and every step of the way, mobs will give the right xp and the right eq, for a true total newbie. (scardale could exist for this, if itwere only balanced with the rest of the mud.)
But yeah, 2.0 is coming, so... yeah. All us 50's will have a game, these problems will STILL exist, I promise you. (omg I am starting to sound like Corth. I am SO SO sorry.)
The point where I disagree with him is 'there is no low-mid game.'
There most certaintly is, and it is fun. Pava and I and others explored it mightily back in the old 'pwipers' experiment, and it was fun... but we did run into problems, which I did post mightily about, and which, sadly, never really got much attention.
Basically, there is a ton of fun to be had exploring and working out how the world is... But yeah, you need a few friends, and on this point, I do most certaintly agree with Ifin... current pbase situation is killing newbies.
However, if you can find these friends, you run into the following problems..
1. Scardale, its a complete diaperwalk with way over the top quests which propels people into 20th level with way too easily had gear (cuz all the alts will just explain the quests to you), and when you are done here, you are suddenly tossed into the real world of, OH MY GOD, this is so slow and much much harder. Scardale should be smitten from the face of Toril... which leads us to the next point..
2. Once you are level 20+, you will find that there is almost NO reward for exploring, no matter how far you travel, except for hitting the few points of retarded supergrind XP mobs. (Pava and I were using our nearly encylopediac knowledge of the mud to basically try everything out.) Quests are retardedly underpowered compared to anything that was handed to you in scardale, (and compared to anything that would actually increase your power level), and mobs give basically ZERO xp, unless you find the right mobs in the right cheesed out over the top xp zones. There is NO balance here, nor is there any semblance of linear power progression for an emerging character.
So basically, delete scardale, or scale it down bigtime, and fix the real world so that you can level up to tenth or so quicly, scardale style, but after that you begin on your journey and every step of the way, mobs will give the right xp and the right eq, for a true total newbie. (scardale could exist for this, if itwere only balanced with the rest of the mud.)
But yeah, 2.0 is coming, so... yeah. All us 50's will have a game, these problems will STILL exist, I promise you. (omg I am starting to sound like Corth. I am SO SO sorry.)
Daggaz -
You make some good points, but I would like to point out that many of the issues with mob imbalance and experience have indeed been addressed as part of 2.0.
One of the most important aspects as it relates to your post is mob standardization. All mobs give coin and experience appropriate to their level/race/class, and gone will be the days of super-exp zones where the mobs just seem to give more experience...
Of course, I should point out that this is coupled with a new experience system that is designed to make exp less of a grind, and lower experience tables across the board. And a whole assortment of toher newbie friendly changes that are geared towards making the MUD enjoyable from level 1. That's a lofty goal of course, and I harbor no illusions that we'll meet it right off the bat - but you have to start somewhere.
You make some good points, but I would like to point out that many of the issues with mob imbalance and experience have indeed been addressed as part of 2.0.
One of the most important aspects as it relates to your post is mob standardization. All mobs give coin and experience appropriate to their level/race/class, and gone will be the days of super-exp zones where the mobs just seem to give more experience...
Of course, I should point out that this is coupled with a new experience system that is designed to make exp less of a grind, and lower experience tables across the board. And a whole assortment of toher newbie friendly changes that are geared towards making the MUD enjoyable from level 1. That's a lofty goal of course, and I harbor no illusions that we'll meet it right off the bat - but you have to start somewhere.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
It is 10am, on the Day of Thunder
The 24th Day of the Month of Ches (of the Sunsets), Year 628.
Time elapsed since boot-up: 75:41:22
Current time is: Fri Aug 31 01:04:42 2007 (EDT)
not to drag the post back to it's orginal focus.... so much god love!! But it's the weekend goddamit...i demand u press the button :P
(see above).
tai, bong, etc etc.
The 24th Day of the Month of Ches (of the Sunsets), Year 628.
Time elapsed since boot-up: 75:41:22
Current time is: Fri Aug 31 01:04:42 2007 (EDT)
not to drag the post back to it's orginal focus.... so much god love!! But it's the weekend goddamit...i demand u press the button :P
(see above).
tai, bong, etc etc.
It is 6am, on the day of the Great Gods
The 12th Day of the Month of Mithrian (the Wanting), Year 630.
Time elapsed since boot-up: 102:39:13
Current time is: Wed Sep 26 16:27:19 2007 (EDT)
Can we get a reboot please? Is there an official Immortal view as to when the game's been up too long and needs to be rebooted? If so, what hour is viewed as too long? Do the Imms even think 102 hours (over 4 days) is a problem that should be handled?
For what it's worth, I asked for a reboot last night when the uptime was about 80 hours (via petition) and received no response. So far tonight, no response either, although an Imm in another thread said that one of the best ways to get a response from an Imm is to petition. I understand Immortals have real lives, but I'm sure some Immortal in the last 24 hours has seen my prior petition and could have done something about it or got ahold of an Imm who has the authority to do something about it.
The 12th Day of the Month of Mithrian (the Wanting), Year 630.
Time elapsed since boot-up: 102:39:13
Current time is: Wed Sep 26 16:27:19 2007 (EDT)
Can we get a reboot please? Is there an official Immortal view as to when the game's been up too long and needs to be rebooted? If so, what hour is viewed as too long? Do the Imms even think 102 hours (over 4 days) is a problem that should be handled?
For what it's worth, I asked for a reboot last night when the uptime was about 80 hours (via petition) and received no response. So far tonight, no response either, although an Imm in another thread said that one of the best ways to get a response from an Imm is to petition. I understand Immortals have real lives, but I'm sure some Immortal in the last 24 hours has seen my prior petition and could have done something about it or got ahold of an Imm who has the authority to do something about it.
By the way, feel free to email me at shevarash@gmail.com if you can't get anyone via petition. I'll get the email on my PDA within 5 minutes - not that that means I can do anything about it just then, but at least I'll be aware and can plan for a reboot at my earliest convenience.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
malakwee wrote:Can folks start suggesting what can be done for 1) retention of new
players and 2) retention of current players?
Theres been atleast 6 experienced evil players that have stopped playing since I came back because they whernt able to zone because of the lower pbase. or the 1 evil zone group /week had already left.
Multi and reboots would help.
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