Qualifications for being allowed to help the MUD

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Qualifications for being allowed to help the MUD

Postby Kegor » Sun Sep 09, 2007 10:10 am

This thread is about people that have applied and been denied for helping the mud. I have heard accounts of quite a few qualifed people (some that have even had careers in such things as programing and coding) from even being introduced or tested in the field on the slightest bit of help of improving the process here.

I have my own account as well. Yeah, I would've like to have been an areas god, but "you guys" (maybe just one person or another, I don't know or care) made it the decision that that was not possible for me to do despite my years of knowledge as a player and contributor of a zone to the mud.

I must say that this makes me try to help the mud now in the best possible way I can think of (maybe considered harsh critisism at some times, such as the current post). And I fear no consequences or future consequences for it.

I must admit I still feel slightly jaded for not being able to give the countless hours of free time that I had to give (and that I would still gladly give) to help in areas creation to this mud. WTF were you thinking? Seriously. If I am not good enough to do so, who is? I would have produced many many zones by now and I would still be going strong (well beyond Chezra and Touk [my wave/generation of great areas creators]).

Label me a loser if you like but I am still working on getting over that. Yeah I'm a perfectionist that that does not know rejection in any aspect of life including the creation, improvement, and efficentcy aspects of all functions of types of systems that relate to this mud, and especially in RL in the main function of my career that I do very well. You guys never interviewed me in person while I was sitting there in a suit, but that should not be neccessary especially if you have paid attention to my player leadership and zone knowledge in the past.

BTW I posted this here because I wanted people to see that "you guys" (forgers) have been retarted about not letting qualified people help you in the past (especially after Chezra). This needs to change despite the fact that I have given up all hope on myself being included in this change, which is one of the main reasons for this post in a public forum.

But thank you for providing a free mud of your supreme overvision that can only allow your select limited help. I still enjoy it regardless of this hate for my lack of allowed contribution for ultamate growth.

Communication is important. Even if in such crude extreme constructive critisism as this (if you take it as that. I hope not).

** Edit (statement withdrawn)

THANK YOU (I love the mud even despite my lack of allowed participation in its growth and evolution. Yes I really did feel strongly about participating in that.)

Get it right in the future though, for real. Made me damn near hate you guys even though you host a free game. I was the genuine article that you let slip through (and by far not the only one). Hope you realize that.

BTW. If Lilithelle wants to contribute to the mud, don't let her! Shes trouble!
Last edited by Kegor on Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:08 am

Would love to see a response to that. I've heard quite a bit about how there are not enough qualified people willing to volunteer time to help with coding and areas, and yet it seems that more than a few times I have heard about qualified people who are declined positions, or if given a low level position, are not given any room to advance.

I have been alluding to this in some of my other posts without saying it out loud, but frankly I am suspicious that Toril 2.0 doesn't exist at all and is just a convenient way for the current powers that be to make people think that the situation with the mud slowly dying is being addressed.. and to get people off their back about making any needed changes to the existing incarnation of the mud. I probably am wrong about this.. its just a suspicion.. but lets say I would wouldn't be surprised if thats what ended up happening.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Tasan » Mon Sep 10, 2007 4:25 am

Cyric's an absentee landlord. What else is there to say?

Shows up when the rent is due and other than that you never see him.

Meanwhile, his lackeys... all of them(Dugmaren, Marthammor, Lathander and Vaprak), have more or less done their best to keep the sphere alive and kicking. At times it has been enough, but most of the time it is more of a job babysitting the numerous people that offer up time but never quite drive to complete something they've been working on.

As far as I'm concerned, if you can't do the job with the zeal and effort required, by all means tell someone and step down. The game hasn't been losing players only due to the new options available, but also because this game has become more and more stagnant as time has gone on. For proof of this, I offer up this response:

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopi ... 311#150311

Straight from the horses mouth. You'll notice the date on the post is in Aug 2005. 2 years and this project that was supposed to be finished in "about a month" is still not even close to done.

Part of that was Shiallia leaving permanently. I'll go ahead and take a bit of responsibility for that regretful loss. But we're talking 2 years here. Also before someone goes running their mouth about "what have you done in the past 2 years to help?", I will say that I have spent many hours helping Lathander and Vaprak try to complete what has amounted to a daunting task.

I'm sure that this will evoke some eloquent response from the man himself, but it just doesn't matter anymore. We've had several times before where people have called him out only to have him swoop in and hurriedly slap something in to take the heat off for a bit. The damage to the game and the playerbase is done.

We all deal with real life in our own way, but there are times when all of us can walk away for an extended period of time and admit that we just aren't going to be available. I believe now is the time for Cyric to admit that he doesn't have the time to spend here anymore and for someone else to step into that role. Also, I offer no disrespect to him as we know that he holds down a very difficult position IRL and he has spent thousands of hours working here through the years.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 10, 2007 5:16 am

Agree about Cyric.. but he's just 1/3 of the problem..

Ok that was just uncalled for. I'm gonna catch hell from the dregs who haven't left this mud yet for that one!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Marthammor » Mon Sep 10, 2007 6:54 am

From my understanding of the hiring process, you must be someone who has a high level char and has been around long enough to know how the game works. You also must not have been in serious trouble before (cheating, pkilling, seriously hating on other players/staff, ect).
Once those items check out, it depends on what area you’re looking to join.
If you’re going to be applying for a coder position, you need to get in touch with Shevarash. I believe he requires some samples of past work, but you need to talk to him to be sure.
For admin jobs, you need to talk to Shar.
Anyone interested in helping with staff driven RP or Questing, needs to talk to Auril.
For areas work, I personally don’t look for much. Of course, I’m also not the one that does the hiring. :P
As far as I’m concerned, you need to be able to read and understand the areas documents and each of the areas file formats (this is what gives most people problems). You also need to have decent spelling and grammar skills, or at least have a word processing program that can do it for you. You need a good idea for your zone and a half way decent idea of what is balanced. Some of us still have problems with that last one (*raises hand*).

As for 2.0 not existing… it does exist. If it doesn’t exist, then what I’ve seen is a really elaborate ruse that is pulling the wool over the eyes of both the players and staff.

The BGR stuff that Tasan linked to is indeed way late. Turns out rewriting nearly every description in the zones coming in from Homeland is quite a large task and we over estimated the timeframe of the project and the free time of those involved in the rewriting process. This is one of those projects that if you’d like to help with something and don’t mind writing room and possibly mob descriptions with a few other people while working with Homeland’s OLC, you can shoot Lathander a mmail and ask for permission to help with the project. Just understand that you will not be offered a staff position for helping, but it will help get your foot in the door if you do decent work.
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Re: Qualifications for being allowed to help the MUD

Postby Shevarash » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:06 pm

Jaznolg wrote:This thread is about people that have applied and been denied for helping the mud. I have heard accounts of quite a few qualifed people (some that have even had careers in such things as programing and coding) from even being introduced or tested in the field on the slightest bit of help of improving the process here.

<snip>



Jaznolg -

The MUD is always hiring new -

Admins - email nightsinger@gmail.com
Areas - email roysoto@yahoo.com
Code - email shevarash@gmail.com
RPQ - email auril.frostmaiden@gmail.com


Not all applicants are accepted, with the hardest sphere to get into being Code. It's not easy finding new staff members willing to volunteer their time who also know the game well and get along with everyone. We are always thrilled when we find such a person. The MUD would not exist today without the contributions of dozens and dozen of people who have each left their mark.

As for your case in particular - it is completely inappropriate to talk about it here. You know why you weren't given a place on the staff and I think it's time you made your peace with it and moved on. It is also ill advised to extrapolate our entire hiring policy based on your case, which occurred several years ago, back when this was Sojourn3.

I can see that you care about the MUD, but in the future please try to be a little more constructive. I don't actually enjoy being called a retard, or semi-jovial FU's.

If you feel there's some portion of your post that I did not respond to adequately, feel free to point it out and I will do so.
Last edited by Shevarash on Mon Sep 10, 2007 9:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:23 pm

Corth wrote:Would love to see a response to that. I've heard quite a bit about how there are not enough qualified people willing to volunteer time to help with coding and areas, and yet it seems that more than a few times I have heard about qualified people who are declined positions, or if given a low level position, are not given any room to advance.


There have been plenty of people willing to volunteer their time who have been declined positions for various reasons. I don't see how that is interesting or at all surprising. Everyone is given a low level position to start off with, and those who do well advance. Every current staff member has done this - none of us were around at the beginning. As for hearing things from third parties, isn't there a legal term for that?

Corth wrote:I have been alluding to this in some of my other posts without saying it out loud, but frankly I am suspicious that Toril 2.0 doesn't exist at all and is just a convenient way for the current powers that be to make people think that the situation with the mud slowly dying is being addressed.. and to get people off their back about making any needed changes to the existing incarnation of the mud. I probably am wrong about this.. its just a suspicion.. but lets say I would wouldn't be surprised if thats what ended up happening.


That's simply asinine and truly insulting. I have no motive for doing something like that, and I have never done anything to earn that kind of suspicion. I will not respond to such a disgusting allegation any further.

You, Corth, have some sort of bizarre personal problem with me despite years of my trying to turn the other cheek and allowing you your freedom to express your opinion. I've argued against your deletion and banning more times than I could possibly count, despite the fact that your bitter ire is nearly enough to drain all motivation from myself to work on this place.

Stop being a part of the problem, because you ARE in that your attitude and preaching are souring others who are trying to help this place. Get over whatever slight you're hung up on and decide to either help this place or find something else to do with your time.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Sep 10, 2007 3:31 pm

Tasan wrote:Cyric's an absentee landlord. What else is there to say?


Cyric owns 1/3rd of this MUD, and that is what his tag of FORGER means. Cyric is free to delegate any and all Areas responsibilities to his subordinates, which he has been great at doing.

Is the Areas sphere perfect? Of course not - none of us are - and they're aware of and working on their problems. If you want to discuss those problems feel free - but attacking the Forger isn't very constructive and doesn't speak to the real problem. If you want to help, go here and write a zone. I did.
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Postby Auril » Mon Sep 10, 2007 8:41 pm

If you tried emailing me at auril@gmail.com, try auril.frostmaiden@gmail.com instead...

I often look at the people who are roleplaying with us. I look to see if they've been helpful in the past or if there have been some personality quirks that might not work with others. I look for people who are steady players. And I look for people who aren't trying to lead constantly, because while we set the beginning of the story, and are ready for a few directions, ultimately it is the roleplayers who say where things end up.

My sphere has to be able to work with anyone who wants to roleplay regardless of personal opinions about other players, classes, races, etc. Being able to plan ahead, as well as work with sudden changes, is essential. And it is imperative to maintain confidentiality. If this sounds interesting and appealing, and if you are willing to work as part of a team and put in a minimum of five hours a week as a god after you have completed basic admin training, feel free to contact me.

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Query

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:16 pm

I emailed a forger back in June asking if they wanted me to work fixing typos throughout the game. If you check the typo file you'll see how many I've noted throughout the years. I've been playing here since 1992. I still haven't heard a reply. Just wondering what the outcome of my request had been. Thanks.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:33 pm

Shev,

I have no problem with you personally.. I think your probably a very nice guy. I actually do very much respect the fact that you haven't deleted me after so many years of abuse. It speaks very well of you for being so even keeled that you still allow me to log into the mud and post here even though I have overtly attacked you all this time.

I have no problem with you personally at all.. I just dislike the way this mud has been run by you and the other 'owners'. Truthfully, that might be the crux of the issue. My feeling has always been that this mud is bigger than whoever 'owns' it at any given time. Thats why I like to refer to you guys as 'the current powers that be'. We have had other 'owners' before, and very well might have new ones again at some point. Rather, I see you and the other forgers more as custodians.. those in charge of nurturing and taking care of what is really a great collaborative project that has been shaped by dozens of gods and literally thousands of players over more than a decade. So it puts me off more than a little bit that the pbase has declined from about 150 when you first took custody of the mud from Miax, to about 50 on a good day now without you making a very dilligent effort to find additional coders and area designers to make the changes necessary to keep the mud viable.

How about this.. If we are going to insist on speaking in terms of ownership.. how can I go about buying Cyric's ownership stake in the mud? I'll pay a reasonable price, and then donate it to Touk or someone else who is capable of handling the position. Maybe the players can pool together and buy it and vote one of us in charge of handling the position?

Cyric, you listening?

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 10, 2007 10:45 pm

Speaking of which..

Shev.. have you and Shar given any thought to selling your 'ownership' stake also? I mean.. for a while now its seemed like you have other things taking up your time that keep you from carrying out your role as code forger to the fullest extent of your abilities. Maybe your better off taking some cash and spending more time with the new baby? :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Shevarash » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:12 am

Corth wrote:So it puts me off more than a little bit that the pbase has declined from about 150 when you first took custody of the mud from Miax, to about 50 on a good day now without you making a very dilligent effort to find additional coders and area designers to make the changes necessary to keep the mud viable.


This is where we disagree. I think we've had this conversation before, and I've written the post that I started out to reply to you with. I'm going to make it the short version instead.

Miax hadn't really made policy or been involved with the MUD meaningfully for a long time before the S3 split. Cyric and I have essentially been guiding the MUD since around 1999, when Mystra and Miax decided to step back and handed over controls to the new Forgers. I point this out because it's unfair to act as if only the last few years that you disagree with are a result of Cyric and I's management.

Since the split, we have accomplished a lot of good things for Toril, often involving bringing new people on board. We've seen new area makers create zones that are now staples, we've tried two different coders that didn't work out so well, but still managed to contribute a little. We've hired new admins to continue the more relaxed atmosphere that Shar introduced. We even merged with Homeland in an effort to get some new blood and fresh ideas into the mix.

We've also done a lot of development. From finally getting Menzo and Tiamat in the game to a bunch of new zones to countless bug fixes and new procs, the MUD is substantially different now than it was at the split.

Of course, more work could have been done - more new zones, more new code. But I think we did pretty well with what we've got, especially considering the difficulty in retaining players in this new age of graphical MMOs. In any case, it became clear that piling on band-aid after band-aid wasn't going to really cut it anymore, so we made the hard decision to invest our time in a significant overhaul of the MUD code, which has resulted in what feels like stagnant development over the last year and a half. It's unfortunate that it's taken so long, but such is software development. I stand by the decision to invest time in 2.0, and I have faith that it will pay off.

I could have stuck with the status quo of just piling on more and more code on to a shaky foundation, and loading up more and more areas...but I don't think that's what the player base really wants. I want to be a part of something that's breaking new ground and innovating, and I want this MUD to be the best in it's class. I'm truly sorry that it's been such a tough road to get there, but I'm still committed to it.

You might disagree with what we've done, but I stand by all of our choices.

Finally, the MUD is not for sale. You are correct that the MUD is bigger than just us Forgers, and we won't let it die - even if it means passing it on to others as it was passed on to us. But it's not time for that yet. And it certainly wouldn't be passed on to anyone that hadn't proven their worth ahead of time, as we did.

I'm sure none of this has swayed your mind Corth, so I hope we can agree to disagree from this point on, without the endless criticism. Toril is run by Shar, Shevarash, and Cyric - and that is not going to change anytime soon. We may not be what you want for the MUD, but we're what you've got. If nothing else, you can't doubt our dedication. After over a decade now Cyric and I have seen a lot of people come and go...and we're still here - and so is the MUD.

Cheers.
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Re: Query

Postby Shar » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:29 am

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:I emailed a forger back in June asking if they wanted me to work fixing typos throughout the game. If you check the typo file you'll see how many I've noted throughout the years. I've been playing here since 1992. I still haven't heard a reply. Just wondering what the outcome of my request had been. Thanks.


I'm unsure if you are referring to an email you sent me regarding the typo file or not, but I do remember speaking to you and others in game about it before. Currently, the typo file is assigned to a staff member to fix. Yes, it has been assigned for quite a while and progress has been made on it. It is an overwhelming task, but maybe some day this staff member will either finish or decide to move on, in which case it can be re-assigned. Until then it will remain where it is. :)

Hope that helps ya.
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Postby Botef » Tue Sep 11, 2007 2:53 am

I'm going to toss my 2 cents in and then duck out early.

I think one of the reasons there are so many tender feelings in this regard is that many of us have been here a considerable amount of time and have a long standing attachment to the game we play and the community that revolves around it. We also all have a deeply nuanced concept of how the MUD 'should' be in our own minds. When someone offers their time and then find they've wasted their time, or find their spare time is unwanted for whatever reason it can be really frustrating and an easy thing to take personally. This is especially so when the general consensus is that there is so much to be done and you feel like you have a lot to offer. Obviously not everyone can be accommodated and some people get priority over others, thats to be expected. I've made my peace with that.

My only comment herein is that I think a more transparent, up front level of communication in all the spheres needs to happen and we need to shed this level of secrecy about how things work. When you hear one thing and see another and there is this sense of contradictions in the way things work its no wonder people get frustrated.

That said this is a great game, a great community and I cant thank all of you enough, players and gods alike, for being apart of it.
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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:22 am

Thanks for the reply shev. And your point about fighting the rising tide of MMPORPG's is well taken. I happen to agree that starting from the ground up is the right idea. I hope it works out well, but don't take this the wrong way.. I am not overly confident. I really would like to see you make better use of the resources at your disposal. There is a great pool of talent available that is not being utilized. Perhaps one of the reasons I was so millitant in the thread about affiliate marketing to gain revenue for the mud is that I see it as just another (big) example of the forgers neglecting to utilize a readily available resource. That type of neglect is what makes me think that someone else would do a better job.

Corth
Last edited by Corth on Tue Sep 11, 2007 3:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Shevarash » Tue Sep 11, 2007 4:29 am

Honestly, I just don't feel comfortable asking for money or trying to raise it until I've demonstrated that the MUD has a future by delivering a quality product, namely 2.0. The donations for the cMUD icon spot was a time limited opportunity, so I made an exception for it, but...that's why I haven't set up the Amazon link yet.

I have an affiliate account for Toril setup with Amazon. I even played around with the templates and got the layout for a good page that showcases the kind of products that I think Toril players are interested in. I did all of this long before you made it an issue in that thread, but in the end I just didn't feel comfortable putting that link up just yet. Maybe that wasn't the best decision, but it's the one I made.
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Re: Qualifications for being allowed to help the MUD

Postby Kegor » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:08 am

Shevarash wrote:As for your case in particular - it is completely inappropriate to talk about it here. You know why you weren't given a place on the staff and I think it's time you made your peace with it and moved on. It is also ill advised to extrapolate our entire hiring policy based on your case, which occurred several years ago, back when this was Sojourn3.


I would not consider it inappropriate to discuss it here, since it is the prime example I have about the main topic of this thread. I would like to see the decision making process change in the future as I said above, and if I would like to publicly make an example of my own case here that has been continually ignored/denied over the years to this day, I do not see a problem with that.

Also, why would I want to "make peace" with such a bad decision about the judgment of my own character that was based on something that occured a very long time ago, and that cost the players of the mud countless hours of entertainment? I will resent that decision for some time to come just because of the sheer audacity of the inaccuracies involved in the entire issue. I still almost feel the need to justify my own character to those involved, even though that would be a pointless waste of time to those unwilling to even test it in a working environment.

The main point of this response is that passing such judgements that effect the entire mud without even giving a person the slightest chance to prove themselves in the completely different, more responsible, working environment of the staff here, is asinine. Fix it please. Call me crazy, but I like new zones and new content. Deeming people unworthy so easily is not promoting that in any way, and its definately not protecting anything (especially the pbase).
Last edited by Kegor on Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 11, 2007 8:40 am

Shev,

Hrmm. so we are prepared to ask the players to donate large sums to advertise this mud through the purchase of a cmud icon, but otherwise we aren't comfortable enough raising passive revenue for any other advertising until we are convinced the mud will be delivering a quality product. Makes me feel better about my decision to stop playing all these years ago... knowing now that the mud is not currently a quality product. I know.. i'm twisting your words around.

At least you recognize that it wasn't the best decision.. because it wasn't. There is no reason to neglect a perfectly good resource for improving the mud.. in its present incarnation or future one.

I do appreciate your comments here.. I would also like to see you respond to Tasan's follow-up post about the troubles he had getting Cyric to do anything back when he was working on areas. Oh wait.. is that post gone?

So it goes...

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Shevarash » Tue Sep 11, 2007 1:29 pm

You're right, you twisted my words around. I certainly think the MUD in it's current incarnation is a quality product - but it needs 2.0 to survive long term. In any case, I'll think about my decision to open up the Amazon affiliate page, and we'll see what comes of that.

I'm not sure what post of Tasan's you're referring to...I responded to his only post in this thread and I certainly haven't deleted anything from here.
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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 11, 2007 5:00 pm

Shev,

Your statement about why you decided not to raise money for the mud speaks for itself.

Tasan replied to your message concerning Cyric and that post is not here. If you didn't remove it, somebody else did.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Tue Sep 11, 2007 6:24 pm

None of the following is meant as an attack on anybody but there is a lot of candid commentary that will probably be taken as an attack:

1. Perhaps whatever happened years ago to cause Jaz's application to become an Imm to be denied needs to be re-evaluated alongside the work he has done with his brilliant coding to help players on the MUD. Perhaps giving him the opportunity to prove himself by offering him small tasks and then working up to a potential Imm application would be a good idea. That is, of course, if Jaz is willing to give this idea a try. He's obviously hurt by whatever happened and he's obviously one of the most talented and ambitious coders still associated with this game in any way, shape or form. Maybe everyone just needs to put their hard feelings aside, let the past be the past, and play grown-up for the betterment of the MUD.

2. Shevarash, have you noticed that some of your harshest critics are some of the people who invested the most in this game throughout the years? Every last one of them tried to add constructively to this game in the past. That gives them more than a leg to stand on. That's not an opinion, that's a simple fact. They've paid their dues and deserve to voice their thoughts. I've seen their posts get more and more jaded as the years go on and it's really getting to me. But when I consider who's to blame, they're not always at the top of my list.

3. Cyric is invisible. If he truly is still adding to the MUD in more than a delegatory fashion. Specific examples would be appreciated. What has he offered lately that no other person could not have offered if they were in his position? Is he really so busy with real life that he can't post a comment on the BBS or update the News every now and then and let us know that he's still here, that he still thinks about the MUD, and that he still contributes? As Toril's players put in thousands of hours keeping this place alive, I don't think that asking for a little transparency in this regard is uncalled-for. As he is a 1/3 partner in the MUD, the other 2/3 should be holding him accountable and should feel comfortable making a firm recommendation to him that he at least make himself visible on at least a weekly basis.

4. Calling the Homeland takeover a "merger" is upsetting to me. And I only participated in Homeland's Beta. I'd wager a lot of Homeland Imms trusted that their content would be used a lot more than it has been. And most, if not all of the Homelands players knew what the "merger" really was. The Forgers of Toril had an opportunity to prove them wrong. From what I've seen, they've been proven correct. Oh, and no credit is given for bringing Menzo to the game when its quests are broken (I've whined about this on the BBS already). In essence, all that's been added are a bunch more rooms.

5. Announcing the coming of Toril 2.0 was probably your biggest mistake ever.

5a. To that end, how about posting on the BBS whenever you complete some portion of 2.0? Something along the lines of "Cleric spells have been completed" doesn't take up a lot of your time (so no excuse that doing this will take away from your coding time) and frequent (ie. daily, every three days--as opposed to once a week/month/year) things like this will show us that you really are working on this thing rather than doing it in fits and starts. It'll also keep you on task when you feel the urge to just take a rest every now and then--discipline is a good thing!

6. Miax may have been MIA and Shevarash & Cyric may have been holding down the fort for a couple years before the split, but this begs one question: Weren't things going downhill with player turn-out a year or two before the split? And if Shevarash and Cyric were holding down the fort in that time... I point this out only to say: be careful what you say because you may be called on it.

7. CMUD/ZMUD icon: If we asked for donations from players to get the icon to build the playerbase shouldn't we have had a plan in place to implement some overarching changes (read: improvements) to the MUD to justify the cost of the advertising? Do you really think that it's only current players who are turned off by Toril's stagnant state of being? I was excited when I saw that the icon seemed to be bringing new players--and then I got even more depressed than usual when those same new players (some of whom I had personally spent hours cultivating, mind you) got jaded/bored/fed up with Toril and left. Who institutes any sort of advertising campaign without a product that would justify the advertising costs?? I happen to enjoy Toril, but nothing was done to warrant the icon. Speaking of which, isn't the CMUD/ZMUD icon bid on every year or two? When is 2.0 really going to be released? (My bet is on sometime after the next icon bidding war) If 2.0 cannot be released before the next bidding war, what other changes are you planning on implementing to justify the monetary investment made by your players? Something just doesn't compute.

8. You're right, Shevarash--one of the best things to happen to this MUD was Shar's light touch.

I'm sure I had more I wanted to say but I've long since forgotten it. I need to work from an outline next time...
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Sep 12, 2007 12:23 am

1. Jaznolg's relationship with the staff is between him and us, it's not a matter for public discussion. I will say however that we've considered his requests to be on staff many times over the last several years, and will probably re-evaluate it yet again in the near future. However, I'm not sure we're talking about the same person. Jaznolg wrote an area several years ago, and to my knowledge is not a coder and has never contributed code in any form the the MUD. Are you thinking of someone else?

And for what it's worth, the staff has no hard feelings either way, and certainly have not conducted themselves as anything but grown-ups as far as Jaznolg's application to the staff is concerned. You may want to choose your words more carefully when making allegations concerning happenings that you are not fully aware of.

2. What are you trying to say? I don't begrudge anyone their right to voice an opinion, in fact I started this BBS to give them a place for it, and have continually fought for every player's right to have a voice. If you have a specific complaint in regards to my not listening and responding to the players, by all means bring it up and I will address it.

3. Again, what are you trying to say? I'm not going to make an argument that Cyric is irreplaceable and no other person could do his job. What on earth would that prove? The fact is, Cyric earned his place and has every right to delegate as many responsibilities as he chooses. He oversees every Area change that is made on the MUD and has done so for over a decade. That said, there is certainly room to improve for every sphere on the MUD, and we're all working on it. Stop attacking the person, and start asking the Sphere for what you want.

4. You know what, this is just insulting. There was no "takeover" of Homeland, hostile or otherwise - and I resent what you're implying. We invited the owners of HL to bring their code, areas, and staff to Toril and they happily accepted. It was understood from the beginning that the HL staff would be responsible for porting their code and areas, and they have done so to some extent. Their coder, Vhaeraun, has not had time to contribute due to a hectic real life schedule, but Vaprak and Lathander are still active and working on bringing more HL zones to Toril. I'd like to see a lot more HL zones ported over, and I've requested several specific zones for 2.0.

There wasn't any ulterior motive for merging with Homeland - we did it because we thought it would be a good thing for both MUDs. I don't know what else to say on the subject, but if you have some sort of specific complaint - by all means, bring it up.

5. I held off on announcing 2.0 as long as I possibly could. By the time I announced it, the MUD had already seen over 9 months of what seemed to be stagnant development, and I had to let you all know what was really going on. It's true that more frequent blog style updates on development would be nice, and I've been considering using the Dev News forum for those purposes. However, your wording is condescending and snarky, and I don't appreciate it.

6. Please, feel free to call me on what I say. I am well aware the dangers of speaking in a public forum. If you want to talk about how the player base has trended over the past decade I'd be happy to. I brought the past management of the MUD up only to illustrate that we've done a lot of good over the years - we're not just responsible for the past couple of years that you're unhappy with. I did this because Corth was painting a different picture that was just untrue.

7. I'm sorry that the cMUD icon wasn't handled to your satisfaction. Yes, the icon is a yearly thing - but our icon will always exist in that first version of cMUD, even when a user updates to a new version. I wanted to wait until 2.0 was out before advertising at all, but I thought this was an opportunity that couldn't be missed. And although my preference was to wait for 2.0 to achieve maximum bang for our advertising dollar, I firmly believe that Toril is a damn fine MUD worth of advertising with or without 2.0. Also, there were no investments - the icon was paid for via donations and the terms were made clear up front.

8. At least we agree on something. :)

Finally, I'd like to say that while your post contained a couple of good points, for the most part it seemed like venting. Some constructive ideas - with less snarkiness - would be a lot more helpful. There's really no need to be so combative with me...I'm not looking for a fight, and I'm perfectly willing to listen to what you have to say, and answer your questions.
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Postby Thilindel » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:16 am

(takes this chance to do another plug for MULTIPLAY as a constant) :)
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Postby Raiwen » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:05 pm

Shev, I contacted you at one point about being a coder. You responded rather quickly, which impressed me, and asked that I send you a resume with a history of my players, levels, and coding experience.

I did that, yet I never received a response from it. Not even a, "I got it, and it's under discussion." To a "No thanks, we're not sure if your skillset fits what we need."

I've played here since 1994, and while I've take breaks I've always come back. I would totally understand if my skillset wouldn't fit, however, I'm willing to help in whatever capacity.

It's just frustrating to not receive a response - in either email or tells/petition. If it was an oversight, then that is understandable. Otherwise, the silence rather makes me feel as if I'm not important enough for someone to hit the "reply" button.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:16 pm

I'm sorry I missed your resume - I'll take a look through my gmail inbox and see if I can find it.

Edit: I found it. Must have just overlooked it . I generally keep up with my MUD email pretty well, but the last few months leading up to my daughter's birth were pretty hectic, and I'm sure some things got lost. Anyhow, I'll reply to you in email Raiwen - thanks for bringing this to my attention.
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Postby Birile » Wed Sep 12, 2007 2:55 pm

Shevarash wrote:2. What are you trying to say? I don't begrudge anyone their right to voice an opinion, in fact I started this BBS to give them a place for it, and have continually fought for every player's right to have a voice. If you have a specific complaint in regards to my not listening and responding to the players, by all means bring it up and I will address it.


I'm not one of your harshest critics--I'm a bystander trying to point out something I'm seeing. And what I'm seeing is a lot of respected, knowledgeable players jumping down your throat.

Also, I didn't say anything about you allowing or disallowing anyone to voice their opinions.

Shevarash wrote:3. Again, what are you trying to say? I'm not going to make an argument that Cyric is irreplaceable and no other person could do his job. What on earth would that prove? The fact is, Cyric earned his place and has every right to delegate as many responsibilities as he chooses. He oversees every Area change that is made on the MUD and has done so for over a decade. That said, there is certainly room to improve for every sphere on the MUD, and we're all working on it. Stop attacking the person, and start asking the Sphere for what you want.


Okay. If you say so!

Shevarash wrote:4. You know what, this is just insulting. There was no "takeover" of Homeland, hostile or otherwise - and I resent what you're implying. We invited the owners of HL to bring their code, areas, and staff to Toril and they happily accepted. It was understood from the beginning that the HL staff would be responsible for porting their code and areas, and they have done so to some extent. Their coder, Vhaeraun, has not had time to contribute due to a hectic real life schedule, but Vaprak and Lathander are still active and working on bringing more HL zones to Toril. I'd like to see a lot more HL zones ported over, and I've requested several specific zones for 2.0.

There wasn't any ulterior motive for merging with Homeland - we did it because we thought it would be a good thing for both MUDs. I don't know what else to say on the subject, but if you have some sort of specific complaint - by all means, bring it up.


Okay. If that's the case, I dare say some of the Homelanders (staff and players) misunderstood the intentions of the merger, in that maybe they thought more than just some select code and areas would be brought over. If you need proof, more than one of them voiced their concerns on the BBS. Not to mention, a lot of the promised changes have not been brought over (where's the new race?), or have been included with errors.

Shevarash wrote:5. I held off on announcing 2.0 as long as I possibly could. By the time I announced it, the MUD had already seen over 9 months of what seemed to be stagnant development, and I had to let you all know what was really going on. It's true that more frequent blog style updates on development would be nice, and I've been considering using the Dev News forum for those purposes. However, your wording is condescending and snarky, and I don't appreciate it.


My wording was just fine. I simply referred to the fact that the level of criticism you've received has skyrocketed since your announcement, and I even offered a suggestion to help alleviate the issue. In that vein, I'm glad that you've been considering using the Dev News forum. Consider this my vote for you going forward with that idea.

Shevarash wrote:6. Please, feel free to call me on what I say. I am well aware the dangers of speaking in a public forum. If you want to talk about how the player base has trended over the past decade I'd be happy to. I brought the past management of the MUD up only to illustrate that we've done a lot of good over the years - we're not just responsible for the past couple of years that you're unhappy with. I did this because Corth was painting a different picture that was just untrue.


I most certainly am not unhappy with Toril, and I resent the insinuation. On the offchance that your reference to "you're" was inclusive of more than one person, I resent that you included me in that grouping. Gosh, I can't ever remember saying "I'm unhappy with Toril."

Ever.

Criticism does not equate to unhappiness or anything of the sort.

On second thought, I don't resent your comments, I'm just not that way. But I probably should resent them... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and make my own assumption that you're just a little emotional and maybe too close to the subject to be completely objective and level-headed.


Shevarash wrote:7. I'm sorry that the cMUD icon wasn't handled to your satisfaction. Yes, the icon is a yearly thing - but our icon will always exist in that first version of cMUD, even when a user updates to a new version. I wanted to wait until 2.0 was out before advertising at all, but I thought this was an opportunity that couldn't be missed. And although my preference was to wait for 2.0 to achieve maximum bang for our advertising dollar, I firmly believe that Toril is a damn fine MUD worth of advertising with or without 2.0. Also, there were no investments - the icon was paid for via donations and the terms were made clear up front.


I happen to agree that Toril is worth advertising.

My apologies for using the term "investment". That implies the donors got something in return for their donations.

Shevarash wrote:Finally, I'd like to say that while your post contained a couple of good points, for the most part it seemed like venting. Some constructive ideas - with less snarkiness - would be a lot more helpful. There's really no need to be so combative with me...I'm not looking for a fight, and I'm perfectly willing to listen to what you have to say, and answer your questions.


Well, I'm glad I prefaced my post by saying it wasn't an attack but that I was sure some people would take it that way.

There's no snarkiness, I'm just blunt.

It may behoove you to do a search, Shevarash, and see how many constructive ideas I've come up with and how many times I've thanked you and the Toril staff on these open forums over the 5.5 years I've been here. Compare that to how many times I've called you out. Look at the majority of the criticism I've offered on these forums and realize that I generally give it sympathetically. Point out how many times I've been way off mark and my arguments didn't hold water.

What you don't see is that I'm one of your supporters who has defended you against the likes of some of the people who really don't like the direction you're taking this MUD.

Why is it so difficult to take criticism when someone tells you that something you're doing is just not working? 'Cause I'll tell you something, I've seen you make assumptions about what others are saying more than once. I hope you're really not expecting exclamation points and smiley faces every time someone tells you they don't like what you're doing or when they offer you advice or criticism. I understand you get a lot of flack from people here, but not every critic is someone who's attacking you--they're just offering you criticism.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Sep 12, 2007 4:04 pm

Birile wrote:I'm not one of your harshest critics--I'm a bystander trying to point out something I'm seeing. And what I'm seeing is a lot of respected, knowledgeable players jumping down your throat.

Also, I didn't say anything about you allowing or disallowing anyone to voice their opinions.


I know you're not a harsh critic, I just don't understand what your point in saying that was. I am aware that there are some harsh critics out there, and I've been responding to them - so what are you trying to say?

Birile wrote:Okay. If you say so!


This is what I mean by snarky. You didn't respond to what I said, you just tossed out a sarcastic dismissal of my reply.

Birile wrote:Okay. If that's the case, I dare say some of the Homelanders (staff and players) misunderstood the intentions of the merger, in that maybe they thought more than just some select code and areas would be brought over. If you need proof, more than one of them voiced their concerns on the BBS. Not to mention, a lot of the promised changes have not been brought over (where's the new race?), or have been included with errors.


Again, I would like there to be more HL content brought over as well and am working towards that. Please direct me to the posts by former HL staff members who have voiced concerns on the BBS. As far as I am aware, all of the HL staff members that joined Toril have the power to port their content over to Toril, and I have left that in their hands. If I ever stated that the HL merger was more than a combining of the staffs and select content from HL, please direct me to that post as well. I'm not trying to be difficult here - I just really don't understand what the issue here is, other than the obvious one of wanting to have more HL zones ported over.

Birile wrote:My wording was just fine. I simply referred to the fact that the level of criticism you've received has skyrocketed since your announcement, and I even offered a suggestion to help alleviate the issue. In that vein, I'm glad that you've been considering using the Dev News forum. Consider this my vote for you going forward with that idea.


Your wording concerning my staying on task and taking breaks was condescending and flippant, the rest of your comments were fine. Perhaps you didn't mean it that way, but it read that way to me.

Birile wrote:I most certainly am not unhappy with Toril, and I resent the insinuation. On the offchance that your reference to "you're" was inclusive of more than one person, I resent that you included me in that grouping. Gosh, I can't ever remember saying "I'm unhappy with Toril."


My apologies, I was referencing Corth there, not you. I got his name in the following sentence but somehow misspoke in the one prior. The sentence should read "we're not just responsible for the past couple of years that Corth is unhappy with." I only brought up the realities of Toril's management to refute a point Corth was trying to make. Again, sorry for the miscommunication.


Birile wrote:On second thought, I don't resent your comments, I'm just not that way. But I probably should resent them... I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and make my own assumption that you're just a little emotional and maybe too close to the subject to be completely objective and level-headed.

Well, I'm glad I prefaced my post by saying it wasn't an attack but that I was sure some people would take it that way.

There's no snarkiness, I'm just blunt.

It may behoove you to do a search, Shevarash, and see how many constructive ideas I've come up with and how many times I've thanked you and the Toril staff on these open forums over the 5.5 years I've been here. Compare that to how many times I've called you out. Look at the majority of the criticism I've offered on these forums and realize that I generally give it sympathetically. Point out how many times I've been way off mark and my arguments didn't hold water.


Birile, I know exactly who you are. I appreciate that you're generally a constructive and helpful player, and I like you personally.

I found some parts of your post overly combative, and some of your criticisms unclear and vague. I believe I pointed out those pieces of your post and responded to the rest. It is not my intent to cause any resentment.

I am right here and happy to discuss the issues that are concerning you - I only ask that we do so without vitriol and in a constructive fashion aimed at fixing the problems. I don't think that's unreasonable...is it?
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Postby Zoldren » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:14 pm

Shevarash wrote:I am right here and happy to discuss the issues that are concerning you - I only ask that we do so without vitriol and in a constructive fashion aimed at fixing the problems. I don't think that's unreasonable...is it?


Shevy,
If we take a look back threw the posts a lot of posts are addressed yes. (must give you kudos for trying to get to most of them)

But when quite a few suggestions for improvement/ideas go ignored unless they have a smart ass/ hostile tone to them....

If they are considered but denied.. that should be stated. And you may have thought about that idea and didn't think it right for the mud. However without saying that the players are going to see it as ignored.

Also when players make constructive comments towards fixing things.. they shouldn't get flippant comments back from the staff. (have seen this on a few occasions)

And like you said in another post... the way someone reads what is written can be taken totally out of context. ie one person meaning to be joking, another person takes it as F-off.

Is it getting to the point that we are all going to have to turn on a /smartass on /smartass off field of our posts.....
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Postby Shar » Wed Sep 12, 2007 5:45 pm

Zoldren wrote: If they [ideas/ input] are considered but denied.. that should be stated. ..... without saying that the players are going to see it as ignored.


While the idea of responding to everyone is a worth while thing to be able to do, the staff simply does not have the time or energy it takes to respond to every single suggestion/criticism that is posted or given on this bbs or in emails and mmails or in tells or in petitions, etc. Believe me, I've tried. :)

Having said that, shevy has an amazing ability to remember suggestions that are given that would make a positive difference and either implements them or fits them into the "big picture" and *will* implement them. I also know that Eilistraee (our only other coder) takes player suggestions to heart, but by working in multiple spheres, has very little time to make sure that everyone who gives any sort of input gets a thanks or a no thanks for it.

Please be aware, all input is greatly appreciated, when stated in a constructive manner, be it positive or negative. Even with a reduced number of players, we still get hundreds of suggestions in various forms and would have to do nothing with our lives but respond to them. Instead, we choose to meet or to send out an email-chain to sr. staff to discuss issues and ideas each sphere may think is important to the betterment of the game. Most changes that happen are due to player feedback.

Thank you for your concern Zoldren, and I hope my explanation helped.
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Postby Zoldren » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:07 pm

Thanks for your post Shar, I understood the problem before I posted. It was more of a "big red truck" for others I think :)

Hmmf, you gave me a thought though... Being you do consider them most/all... could I wonder if we tagged all suggested with the player name. And then after your staff meetings, a lower god (maybe one specific immortal/person for just this?) could send out thanks/no thanks and maybe why's ?

Or better yet post a we considered this month.. like meeting notes.

Kind of like a PR staff member only.. no rights/no permissions to do anyhthing but that. ...Heck I'd be willing to be 'that' Pr person to do the responses for ya. I'm sure others would too

And think of all the time it could save Shev/Eili time from responding to a lot of bbs posts...

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Postby Ragorn » Wed Sep 12, 2007 6:36 pm

Five years ago, I would have descended on this topic with scimitars blazing. I sent a dozen emails to Miax over the years offering to help, sometimes going to far as to actually rewrite help files or other documentation and attach them to my emails. None of them, not one, was ever returned or acknowledged in any way. I mean hell, I live two miles from the site where Sojourn was housed, I even offered to maintain the MUD box while M&M were on vacation. Nothing ever came of any of it. After bitching and carrying on for a year after the Toril split, I think Shar finally laid eyes on one of my posts, and requested a copy of the FAQ I rewrote so she could implement it.

So yeah, five years ago I would have come in here bitching up a storm about how the MUD administration was completely deaf to players offering to help. But time has passed, I've grown up and grown away from the MUD, and the torch has passed to Shevy and Shar. I no longer play and no longer have the inclination to devote time to the game... I've gotten over it. But this post is my way of saying "yes, this has been a problem that I also recognized in the past."

/me too
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Sep 12, 2007 9:40 pm

Shevarash wrote: If you want to help, go here and write a zone. I did.



Well now I'm curious. :)

- Are the old Docs valid for 2.0? Or will any new zone work have to be redone for the new code?
- Is there going to be a new set of docs coming out?
- Will there be an entirely new system for zone creation (like a real editor or will 2.0 have OLC - I don't read the forums enough to know an answer to that if it's been announced)?
- Or do you intend to just use a converter to update old zones to the new code?
- Maybe you intend to have a converter and a new system? Is anyone currently assigned/delegated this responsibility?

What's the deal Image??
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Sep 13, 2007 12:27 am

The areadocs are absolutely still valid. They will be significantly updated for 2.0, but I did my best to keep the area files as backwards compatible as possible.

For those changes that couldn't be made backwards compatible I built an area converter that works great. As for the new features only available in 2.0, I will work with new area makers to get those features included in their zone prior to 2.0 going live.

And no, 2.0 does not feature OLC.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Sep 13, 2007 3:56 am

Corth wrote:Tasan replied to your message concerning Cyric and that post is not here. If you didn't remove it, somebody else did.


Well, I didn't delete it, Shar didn't delete it, and I just got confirmation that Cyric didn't delete it either. Nobody else has moderator access to this forum, so...I think you might be mistaken. Maybe Tasan can clear it up.
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Postby Corth » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:25 am

Yeah hopefully he can shed some light on it. I didn't just imagine it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Sep 13, 2007 5:31 am

Jesus Corth you've quit playing how many years ago and are still this active on the boards? You need a new hobby like WoW or something.

Just wanted to point out that one of the current imms was once hated by the forgers and probably a good portion of the players. People change.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Gormal » Thu Sep 13, 2007 2:12 pm

If there's one thing this thread needs, its another cynical retiree. I'm surprised that this thread has gotten at far as it has, its well past the usual deletion threshold. I wish I could resurrect some of the old threads that were junked on some of these topics.
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Postby Lilithelle » Thu Sep 13, 2007 6:08 pm

ooh ooh listen to me, i have an opinion too!

I needed Cyric's help getting my latest zone into the mud and he was able to do so. I asked him to put up my newbie road map he did. Was a small number of days delay but the man has a life. What you kids can't wait to have your stuff done?

And I think the mud needs more zones to keep low and mid-level players busy with something other than just exping, not alot of questage available at those levels. Toril's zone system has some neat tools you can put to use, can probably do some pretty interesting stuff. Like greydawn has mobs with wands they can use against players its like a do it yourself proc. The mobs in Finn's keep move about the castle throughout the day in accordance with their daily routines. That's just the tip of the iceburg.
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Postby Corth » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:32 pm

Wow, I'm really gonna get it from the Lilithelle butt sniffer crowd but..

How condescending.. Who do you think you are calling people kids? Do you have a life like Cyric.. or just mud all day and all night? Build zones for people not to use because the pbase all went away? Sheesh.

I just wonder if you will shoulder your fair share of the blame, Lilithelle, as a prominent member of the mud who failed to speak out as it slowly died amidst your silence.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Shevarash » Thu Sep 13, 2007 7:57 pm

Yes, because building new zones, leading existing zones , and helping newbies is clearly the wrong way to go about helping the MUD as a prominent player.

That time would be much better spent writing scathing posts about the staff on the forums.
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Postby Corth » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:00 pm

Writing zones that nobody will use, and helping newbies that leave anyway does not accomplish much. There are more fundamental things that need to be addressed, by the staff, before things can turn around. So yes, a prominent player would be accomplishing more by demanding action from the staff than posting condescending excuses for them.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Yasden » Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:14 pm

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Postby Drogga » Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:32 pm

Wow reading these posts jinx me up

In my opinion, the very first thing you should do if you really wanna help the MUD, is to keep on playing the game while keep promoting it to others. If you not even playing anymore, whats the point of what you are saying here? you dont even know what actually going on in the game anymore. DO you even know that some new codes already been implemented like finditem? some new zones already in? Do you know how Golem Forge looks like? How magma looks like? If you don't have any idea what im talking about. You don't deserve to say a word here. You ask for so many kind of improvement yet you never test them when there is any.

Yes you are frustrated, but not everybody can get what they wanted and we should remember that this MUD is a FREE MUD. Owners, Forgers, Coders, they are all doing it for free. I don't know about you guys but don't you think we haven't thank them enuff to attack them like we did here? We all have life to take care of and so are the them, yet they still spend their time for the sake of this MUD for FREE and yet we keep attacking them for the sake of "NOT DOING THE BEST YOU COULD" kinda stuff? Who are you? you pay me for my breakfast?

If I am Shev/Shar, probably I'll ask you to pay me some monthly payment before I allow you to talk.
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Postby daggaz » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:59 am

Heh, and the nitty-gritty truth of it all gets served up, steaming hot, Malaysian style.
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Postby Kifle » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:18 am

daggaz wrote:Heh, and the nitty-gritty truth of it all gets served up, steaming hot, Malaysian style.


Sounds like a sexy porn.

Personally, I see both sides have their points. You have to admit, Shev has put up with a ton of shit over the years, and this is the first game I've played on that allowed their players to voice their opinions so openly. They have fixed a ton of crap over the years, slowly at times, yeah, but it was fixed. Me, I'm glad I'm allowed to curse in moderation on a forum w/o language nazis shoving a boot down my throat and deleting my thread/post. They allow us to be adults -- for good or worse.

As far as the game is concerned, I honestly don't know why some of you have such a fire in your belly. Corth, you don't even play anymore. Are you worried the forums will go down and you wont be able to keep in touch with some people or something? I can see you not wanting the place to die in some respect... much like a grown man likes to know that his childhood home is still taken care of, and somebody is living there. Again, personally, I don't want to see the place die. I've been here, off and on, since I was 14. I've known some of these people for that long, and I like being able to log in and talk on the forums -- but that's the extent my caring.

Does the place need to be fixed up? Sure. Do vile posts and snarky remarks get that done? I've yet to see it work... why keep trying to put the square piece in the circle hole, guys? Maybe I'm like Ragorn and just stopped caring long ago and am just happy I'm still able to keep in touch with you guys. Maybe, when 2.0 comes in, I'll come back and bust out my cross-dressing midget and stabs shit.

Lastly, fellow chubby bastards, prepare for monday because you're going down.

Edit: Spelling... One thing about a slow bbs I find grating is the fact that you can stare at your grammar/spelling errors for 3 minutes, but you can't fix them because it takes so long to post...
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Postby Corth » Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:33 am

Shevarash wrote:
Corth wrote:Tasan replied to your message concerning Cyric and that post is not here. If you didn't remove it, somebody else did.


Well, I didn't delete it, Shar didn't delete it, and I just got confirmation that Cyric didn't delete it either. Nobody else has moderator access to this forum, so...I think you might be mistaken. Maybe Tasan can clear it up.


Tasan.. can you shed some light on this controversy? I know your out there!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ambar » Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:05 pm

Corth you neede to find a new damned hobby other than trashing this mud and the biggest contributors to it's content and livlihood

You have NO clue what the mud is like now, NONE .. hell I have been gone a month or so and dont know what is new .. have you been to GF, Izans, CM, FK, Greydawn .. have you seen the new equipment or just read about it?

I went goodie like 4 years ago and NEVER grouped with you, for those 4 years I have sat in silence because you were some revered player .. while you trashed a game I love and forgers and coders i respect as PEOPLE .. no longer ..

You used to garner total respect from mudders, your name was synonymous with great mudding and a lot of fun, a great leader .. now people know you as the relo target and the guy who bitches most on the forums .. my god get over the mud, get a life .. maybe when the baby is born you will spend more time with her and less time on bitterness about a game you stopped playing years ago ..

You may be very successful in your job field, but your people skills need serious work ...

that is all .. maybe the flames will be directed at me versus people who make a difference, so be it .. I am sick of being silent
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Postby Thilindel » Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:29 pm

Well, Corth does serve a good purpose in game as being a relo beacon. Trouble is that I saw some people purposely drag a global tracking mob on him while he was near TP. Oopsie? I doubt it. I thought BBS and in-game were supposed to be separate.

Trouble with Corth and his receptive audience is he drips with cynicism. Even when being positive, he seems to truly struggle to be sincere. Well, relative to his standard, he's sincere, but for others reading, it's dripping with sarcasm. I know, he needs to change his writing style. Like saying 'Thanks, Scoob!' instead of 'gee you fix this and nag nag, gratz.'

If he were a full time player, even though he was an active leader in the past, he'd have more merit now. Maybe if he offered a post of 1. 2. 3. 4. system. This is what needs implemented. This is what needs removed. This is what needs altered. This is ..etc. But when you don't break down your own ideas, and stand there breaking down others', it just doesn't make you look good. Your audience, Corth, isn't going to bother extrapolating what your claiming is the best method.
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Postby Corth » Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:06 pm

Like everyone else who has left over the past few years, I do not play the mud anymore. Most people do not bother to say anything after they leave. I guess I am being criticized for continuing to care.. Perhaps I have a hard time letting go of something I put literally thousands of hours into.

My belief is that the people who continue to play the dying and stagnant game are essentially the lowest quality players.. those who can find nothing better to do than to continue to play a dying and stagnant game. More dynamic players and personalities have left a long time ago. I wish it were otherwise, and once upon a time it was exactly the opposite of what it is now, but the longer you have stayed here, the less impressive you are in my book. Though I acknowledge that we need less impressive players, just as we need to bring back the more impressive ones.

Those who continue to play also have a good reason to avoid confronting the immorts, as they may end up facing repurcussions in game. Moreover, a lot of the people who stay on the mud do so more for social reasons than gameplay (if they were here just to play a game, they would have went to a better game long ago). Thus, a lot of these people are FRIENDS with the people who make the decisions about the mud, and are thus less likely to criticize their actions or inactions.

So I believe that my perspective, as a more dynamic player who has no social connection to the immorts and has no reason to fear retribution has some merit here and I'll say what I please until Shev or one of the other forgers decides enough is enough and deletes me.

After this message I will be done posting in this thread. It was never supposed to be about me, but rather about what Jaznolg posted in the first place. I don't want to distract from his important point. Though I will make an exception with regard to Tasan if he decides to say anything about the post he wrote that disapeared. I have a feeling there is more than meets the eye with that. It is very interesting to me that he has not stopped in here to address that.

And just as a final thought.. Ambar.. when are you and those who share your opinion going to admit that I have been right? After all these years I have been making controversial posts here about the people who run the mud.. when do you agree with me? When there are just 4-5 afk people on at any given time? Because I promise you that we are within several months of that.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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