Qualifications for being allowed to help the MUD

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Postby Tasan » Sat Sep 15, 2007 11:26 pm

I deleted the post. Frankly, it isn't worth headache involved and all it does is rehash the same crap we've all said for years.

They are happy being where they are and losing players, so be it.
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:16 am

You need to show me one day how to delete a post.. I can't seem to figure it out.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Lilira » Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:25 am

Can do it as long as noone has posted after you.
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 16, 2007 9:14 am

Tasan... did any of the immorts request that you delete your message or talk to you about your message before you deleted it?

I'm sorry to put you on the spot like this but I feel compelled to ask. You wrote a (second) long message that was pretty damning of Cyric based upon your personal involvement as an area creator. You were already well engaged in this discussion based upon your previous message yet inexplicably you deleted your long message and left the conversation that seemed to have held some sort of interest for you previously.

I've seen it time and again here (most recently regarding a certain player who blatantly multiplayed at tia but was doing something of value for the forgers at the time so wasn't punished) where the immorts take a player aside and ask him/her not to talk about something publically that the immorts feel should be kept out of the spotlight. You saw it to an extent in this thread where Shev tells Jaznolg that this public forum is not an appropriate place to discuss whatever issue is keeping the immorts from letting him be a god. I can't help feeling that this was one of those situations too, Doug. Especially since the tone of your most recent message conveys a feeling that you more or less got your answer from the immorts already and maybe you aren't entirely happy about it.

I'm going out on a big limb here.. I haven't spoken to you about this outside of these forums, or with anyone else who might have discussed this with you. I don't know what happened, and nobody has told me anything, so this is all conjecture. Like my suspicion about 2.0 being a fabrication, I am more likely wrong than I am right. But I'll tell you what Doug.. if my suspicion here is true, then you are in a position to shed light on one of the big problems on this mud... so I would really ask that you do your duty and say what happened one way or the other. And If I am wrong here, please absolutely say so, if for nothing else than to clear up any doubt about the integrity of the immorts in this particular instance.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Tala_Darkraven » Sun Sep 16, 2007 2:10 pm

I realise this thread was intended for a different purpose, that being said...

First off let me bow down to Corth, the ultra dynamic person he is, as I am a new player and by far less wonderful. I owe you for being so dynamic in your locations for relocation, they truely expand the dynamics of my playing time.

I dont know you nor have i ever had the pleasure of being in a group with you. I read, I see that you must have been a very solid member at one time.

I cant help but wonder if you wouldnt relish in the demise of Toril. There seems to be an air of consipracy in about 75% of the words you type. Almost an agenda to prove that you are correct, to show that all you say was spot on. I will go as far to point out your tone in the removed post quiestioning, pure consipiracy of removal to something that might cause more turmoil.

I dont want you to think of this is an attack on your person, but please understand, your words come off as an attack to anyone willing to spend time here that isnt someone from your period of tenure.

Its quite unsettling.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:17 pm

Eh, players don't need to know all the drama behind the scenes because it just leads to stupid heresay (like now). Remember when Miax told us DSR would have been disbanded and we would have gotten deleted if we told the MUD about who was in our guild? Or how about when Cherzra

I read Tasan's post and it just looked like he is mad at Cyric like most of us old farts are because the quality of zones were such shit back then and it seemed like people under him were controlling the direction of the sphere. That and when he was trying to make a zone, Cyric was never on to help.

I don't think Shevarash is making up 2.0 and I think you're just making a conspiracy theory without proof. There's just too much info out there about 2.0 to let me believe Shevarash and Shar are not 2 psychos trying to maintain a hold on a group of unsuspecting players. I mean if they physically looked like Miax and Mystara... yea I would probably agree.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Sep 16, 2007 6:21 pm

Corth wrote:
My belief is that the people who continue to play the dying and stagnant game are essentially the lowest quality players.. those who can find nothing better to do than to continue to play a dying and stagnant game. More dynamic players and personalities have left a long time ago. I wish it were otherwise, and once upon a time it was exactly the opposite of what it is now, but the longer you have stayed here, the less impressive you are in my book. Though I acknowledge that we need less impressive players, just as we need to bring back the more impressive ones.


Corth


Eh, I think a mix of good and bad left from what I've seen. Then again, there weren't that many good players outside of the 3 or 4 major good guilds and alot of those players are still around.
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Postby Shevarash » Sun Sep 16, 2007 7:24 pm

Corth wrote:Tasan... did any of the immorts request that you delete your message or talk to you about your message before you deleted it?


None of the forgers even got to read Tasan's post, let alone talk to him about it. I think we've clearly shown a willingness to talk frankly in this thread, and nobody's posts have been censored by us.

As for Jaznolg's issue, he hasn't been given a staff member for reasons of which he is fully aware. There is no conspiracy, there is nothing damning there. I don't want to talk about it here because it's a private matter between him and the staff, and I don't feel comfortable dredging up negative things about ANY player in public. I'm fully open to speaking to him about his issue, and I have done so several times over the years. Jaznolg, I would be happy to speak with you either on the MUD or via email.
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Postby torkur » Mon Sep 17, 2007 12:34 am

Corth Wrote:
My belief is that the people who continue to play the dying and stagnant game are essentially the lowest quality players..those who can find nothing better to do than to continue to play a dying and stagnant game. More dynamic players and personalities have left a long time ago.


I've played off and on since 1997. I have played BG1/2, Diablo 1/2, WoW and yet still come back to enjoy time with friends and family on a great game. I disagree with a ton of things going on currently and a fair number of people on this mud, but it's my choice to stay and put up with it or go to one of the billion other games around.

Fuck you. That enough personaility for ya?
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Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 17, 2007 3:46 am

Thilindel wrote:If he were a full time player, even though he was an active leader in the past, he'd have more merit now. Maybe if he offered a post of 1. 2. 3. 4. system. This is what needs implemented. This is what needs removed. This is what needs altered.

It's been done, I've done it several times. At the end of the day, the staff is going to do what the staff is going to do. Sometimes they use good player ideas (like Corth's mem prioritization idea), and sometimes they don't.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:01 am

Shevarash wrote:None of the forgers even got to read Tasan's post, let alone talk to him about it.


With all due respect Shev, I'd like to hear that from Tasan himself.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Gormal » Mon Sep 17, 2007 7:43 am

Doug already said that he deleted it himself, Gene.
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Postby Sarell » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:29 am

I think someone flaming the Admin about not letting them become a God is the perfect example of why screening is important. Even bringing up Cherzra as a semblance of usefulness to the MUD is pretty scary. The guy that leaked half the MUDs areas code, posted threats to the games owners, and interfered in their personal and work life. Hell yes we need strict screening. We've already have enough leaks & cheats in the last few years which is certainly the one thing that turns me off the game.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:11 pm

Gormal wrote:Doug already said that he deleted it himself, Gene.


My question for him is whether he did so at the behest of the immorts.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ragorn » Mon Sep 17, 2007 1:16 pm

Corth wrote:My question for him is whether he did so at the behest of the immorts.

Then you should send him a tell in-game, since nobody is going to post on the forums that they were coerced into deleting a post. Not that I think he was anyway, but this is just silly.
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Postby Tasan » Mon Sep 17, 2007 10:11 pm

Corth wrote:I'm going out on a big limb here.. I haven't spoken to you about this outside of these forums, or with anyone else who might have discussed this with you. I don't know what happened, and nobody has told me anything, so this is all conjecture. Like my suspicion about 2.0 being a fabrication, I am more likely wrong than I am right. But I'll tell you what Doug.. if my suspicion here is true, then you are in a position to shed light on one of the big problems on this mud... so I would really ask that you do your duty and say what happened one way or the other. And If I am wrong here, please absolutely say so, if for nothing else than to clear up any doubt about the integrity of the immorts in this particular instance.

Corth


No one asked me to delete the post or to change the tone of it or anything else. It was raging against the machine in all it's glory. The fact that Cyric has basically taken credit for hours upon hours of other people's work is moot according to Shev. I'm not going to argue a point for no reason. Instead I had a chat with someone I'd worked with before who explained some things to me in a different light.

Cyric's delegation of responsibility is fine with me as long as that is the understood public policy laid out for everyone to understand. My perception of the meaning behind the term FORGER in no way gives me a right to condemn someone, even if a majority of people agree with me. As Shev pointed out, being in charge of Areas he can run things how he wants. If he chooses to be the shadowy figurehead that takes the credit for overseeing the sphere and actually "getting things implemented" so be it.

I have made the choice to turn my frustration and negative energy around into something positive and have gone back to work on the project with the delegated authority. I have the utmost respect for him as he has treated me in kind and has been more than helpful when I asked questions or needed help. Hopefully when all is said and done, he will receive the credit due to him.
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Postby Shevarash » Mon Sep 17, 2007 11:39 pm

Tasan wrote: The fact that Cyric has basically taken credit for hours upon hours of other people's work is moot according to Shev.


I have never said anything of the sort, or made such a claim, and to my knowledge neither has Cyric. All Area Makers are credited in the "Credits" file, and Cyric has relied on a few Co-Ords over the years who have done an extraordinary amount of work and all of whom I have great respect for.

If I have shown or suggested otherwise, please tell me how I gave that impression so that I can correct it.
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Sep 18, 2007 7:42 pm

Shevarash wrote:The areadocs are absolutely still valid. They will be significantly updated for 2.0, but I did my best to keep the area files as backwards compatible as possible.

For those changes that couldn't be made backwards compatible I built an area converter that works great. As for the new features only available in 2.0, I will work with new area makers to get those features included in their zone prior to 2.0 going live.


Well that's terrific! :)

Shevarash wrote:And no, 2.0 does not feature OLC.


Duly noted.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Sep 18, 2007 10:02 pm

I'm not going to get into some sort of quasi-argument over what you may or may not have meant.

Cyric is head of the Areas sphere and hence if something goes on in areas he has his stamp on it. This is basically what you said. Doesn't that give credit to him for everything? If not, whatever. I'm done talking about this crap.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Sep 20, 2007 3:47 am

First off, the premise of this thread is ludicrous. I have the highest level of respect for the vast majority of posters here, but it's like watching a titanic clash of egos.

I'm going to use Birile's comments as a framework to comment on the thread itself here, because I think that of all the posters here he is least likely to take things the wrong way and he doesn't have any personal ego invested in them. I actually agree with his statements in general, but I intend to call their application into question.

Birile wrote:1. Perhaps whatever happened years ago to cause Jaz's application to become an Imm to be denied needs to be re-evaluated alongside the work he has done with his brilliant coding to help players on the MUD.


A very reasonable call. But it's ultimately impossible for any of us nonimms to know. Whatever happened is between Jaz and them. Stating that it needs to be reevaluated amounts to speculation that reevaluation hasn't already occurred. We know that the staff thinks the incident is characteristic of Jaz and Jaz does not think the incident is characteristic of him. Rumors consistently suggest that Jaz's work is quality stuff, so I'm prepared to believe that detail, but this is the first time I've heard that it's "brilliant coding." Wasn't most of it building areas?

2. Shevarash, have you noticed that some of your harshest critics are some of the people who invested the most in this game throughout the years? Every last one of them tried to add constructively to this game in the past. That gives them more than a leg to stand on. That's not an opinion, that's a simple fact.


But the thing is, that's not the whole picture. Cherzra was a harsh critic and a talented player, and he cared passionately about progress as well. However, he cared so much about the game that he stopped caring about things like treating the staff like people and respecting the limits of acceptable behavior. When he left, I said, "Pride ruined the angels." I still believe he was one of our greatest players, but I wouldn't ask for him to be reinstated in any fashion without personally witnessing a change in him.

There is more to being constructive than caring passionately.

3. Cyric is invisible. If he truly is still adding to the MUD in more than a delegatory fashion. Specific examples would be appreciated. What has he offered lately that no other person could not have offered if they were in his position? Is he really so busy with real life that he can't post a comment on the BBS or update the News every now and then and let us know that he's still here, that he still thinks about the MUD, and that he still contributes? As Toril's players put in thousands of hours keeping this place alive, I don't think that asking for a little transparency in this regard is uncalled-for. As he is a 1/3 partner in the MUD, the other 2/3 should be holding him accountable and should feel comfortable making a firm recommendation to him that he at least make himself visible on at least a weekly basis.


Cyric is invisible, but that doesn't mean he doesn't do anything. I'll agree he isn't as active as Shev, but that's not the same as doing nothing. We probably just can't see most of what he does because he tends to not make himself visible to mortals. There are 8 times in the past year when I have petitioned and gotten a response from Cyric himself. This suggests that he's at least logged on every 1.5 months, which makes me inclined to believe that he's doing something.

Insofar as what he's doing . . . We have enough leaks and rumor mongering regarding what areas are going in, what items are going to be more powerful soon, etc. Are you sure that more public knowledge about things like what areas are being looked at is a good thing? Remember the huge furor over Gargauth's statements back when he would tell people what he was and was not looking at (Tarrasque in particular)?

In any case, the part of your comment that asks "What has he offered lately that no other person could not have offered if they were in his position?" bothers me. Are we holding staff accountable for being the best possible person out of all theoretical people who could hold a position? That's really a bit too much. Cyric is who we have. Legally, bureaucratically, and politically, that position can't be taken over by just anyone.

If one of the demi imms who just started has to quit, maybe I'll believe that some new area they were working on could be done equally well by a replacement, though the style would wind up different. But replacing a forger is an entirely different ballgame, since that is a policy-level role. It's like replacing a clerk vs. replacing the COO of an organization, who also happens to be the major shareholder and retired CEO's son. You can't just pop a new person into the slot and expect him to be up and running properly in a matter of weeks.

Let's say Cyric isn't wielding 100% of a Forger's potential power. Say he's only acting like 150% of a demi imm instead. So what? That's still one more guy on the staff team making progress, and it's a guy that would be a pain to replace.

4. Calling the Homeland takeover a "merger" is upsetting to me. And I only participated in Homeland's Beta. I'd wager a lot of Homeland Imms trusted that their content would be used a lot more than it has been. And most, if not all of the Homelands players knew what the "merger" really was. The Forgers of Toril had an opportunity to prove them wrong. From what I've seen, they've been proven correct. Oh, and no credit is given for bringing Menzo to the game when its quests are broken (I've whined about this on the BBS already). In essence, all that's been added are a bunch more rooms.


To be fair, let me offer the other side of the story: a lot of the elves (myself included) were incredibly inconvenienced by the merger of Homeland content into Evermeet, and there was a time when we openly campaigned for its removal. Essentially a whole lot of rooms were added for no discernable practical reason and vast tracts of land were reflagged NOTELE. Blindly adding Homeland content is incredibly disruptive in some cases. Our complaints may have led to some caution in terms of adding content, which I would argue is a good thing.

On the flip side, Menzo is far from the only place with broken quests. I personally wouldn't mind seeing a fourth Forger sphere, "Consistency," added. Of course, I refrain from suggesting such a change in a post where I claim that everyone and their mother is incompetent.

5. Announcing the coming of Toril 2.0 was probably your biggest mistake ever.


I can't really comment on this as it's too soon. I will say that it is a great irony that we use our freedom of speech to campaign for limits on the staff's freedom of speech.

I'm sure I had more I wanted to say but I've long since forgotten it. I need to work from an outline next time...


Hope you don't mind that I borrowed your outline!
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Postby Ragorn » Thu Sep 20, 2007 8:49 pm

Someone PM me and tell me what the Jaznolg "incident" was please. It's painfully obvious that pretty much everyone in the thread already knows, but nobody will come out and say it because even though everyone already knows, it's polite to pretend that nobody does.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Sep 20, 2007 10:13 pm

moritheil wrote:But the thing is, that's not the whole picture. Cherzra was a harsh critic and a talented player, and he cared passionately about progress as well.... There is more to being constructive than caring passionately.


Civil rights activists whether peaceful or not all helped change our world. The fact is, you can wish in one hand and shit in the other and see which one fills up faster.

Moritheil wrote:We probably just can't see most of what he does because he tends to not make himself visible to mortals. There are 8 times in the past year when I have petitioned and gotten a response from Cyric himself. This suggests that he's at least logged on every 1.5 months, which makes me inclined to believe that he's doing something.


Many admins logged in for hours and hours, were they actually doing anything? Most likely not. Being logged in does not equate to doing things. There have been several people who have not recieved any response from repeated requests for information or help with things, not to mention the other folks that have basically been barred from even trying to help for basically what amounts to(in the parlance of Dalar) cockblocking.

Moritheil wrote:Remember the huge furor over Gargauth's statements back when he would tell people what he was and was not looking at (Tarrasque in particular)?


That particular problem was caused by Gargauth NOT finishing the work he started. It had nothing to do with what he was or wasn't working on because he simply never finished most of the things that he could have done. See: Erlan.

Moritheil wrote:Are we holding staff accountable for being the best possible person out of all theoretical people who could hold a position? That's really a bit too much. Cyric is who we have. Legally, bureaucratically, and politically, that position can't be taken over by just anyone.


I don't think anyone is advocating some hostile takeover or something. What I personally want and what some other people want is for some accountability and frankly a little bit of transparency. The time for being secretive about projects in the works and crap like that has come and gone. There wasn't a post on the BBS saying "Dugmaren has taken over daily activities for the Areas sphere". There wasn't a post when he left stating someone else would take over. Should it really be like pulling teeth to get some information about what exactly there is in store from one of the 3 major parts of this game?

Moritheil wrote:You can't just pop a new person into the slot and expect him to be up and running properly in a matter of weeks.


Strange, companies do it all the time. This isn't a company, but in the same respect, the shareholders are upset and want something done. There are people here that have enough experience to take over a role such as Dugmaren had. Is it so much to want to have someone that is still actively here, able to respond to things and help drive the sphere? I really don't think so.

Moritheil wrote:Our complaints may have led to some caution in terms of adding content, which I would argue is a good thing.


So basically you both said the merger was botched. Which a lot of people agree with.


Now I said I wouldn't talk about this crap anymore, but your viewpoint is from the completely naive side of things. There are plenty of people here who don't have immortals that have worked with them or have seen parts of the other side. The fact is, anyone that puts in time here is replaceable. The old Forgers are all gone and the game marches on. Saying that the game would somehow be catastrophically affected by Cyric stepping down or otherwise is laughable.

At this point, I would rather Shev took on the duty of overseeing areas since he himself has written them and is capable of keeping the players at least mildly informed as to what he plans in the future. I know that won't happen, but we can still dream.
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Postby Kegor » Fri Sep 21, 2007 7:55 am

Ragorn wrote:Someone PM me and tell me what the Jaznolg "incident" was please. It's painfully obvious that pretty much everyone in the thread already knows, but nobody will come out and say it because even though everyone already knows, it's polite to pretend that nobody does.


I was told I had an abrassive personality. It was also mentioned at some time or another that my past violations were held against me.

This list of violations includes but is not limited to:
Being rude or verbally abusive to some imms in the past.
Multiplay, and botting violation.
Pkill (back when that was a major offense, not just a good laugh).
Channel abuse.


When I was a far younger and less mature adult playing this game, I never realized that these things would disqualify me from being constructive in the future. Hell, never even knew I would care about helping with constructve things here. Was just having some fun being a reckless (and sometimes flagrantly drunk) mortal.

Though, I might not have disagreed with the abrasive personality thing back then, or even cared about having a god on the mud, I still wanted to write zones. I still enjoyed writing a couple more zones after that, just none of them have been accepted for use on Toril under my name because of past character reasons. I did briefly consider changing my identity to submit some already written zones and to continue writing more, but decided against it for moral reasons.

So, I hope that gives you a better understanding.
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Postby Ragorn » Fri Sep 21, 2007 1:41 pm

Yeah, sure enough. Hell, Mystra sitebanned me in 1996. Good times, good times.
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Postby Corth » Fri Sep 21, 2007 2:51 pm

So I take it that my application to be an admin will likely be denied as well? *Duck*

While I'm here.. In all fairness to Shev and the other immorts, I should publically admit that my suspicions regarding Tasan's post turned out to have no merit. Although I believe there are plenty of reasons to criticize the immorts, this wasn't one of them.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Zoldren » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:29 pm

Jaznolg wrote:I was told I had an abrassive personality. It was also mentioned at some time or another that my past violations were held against me.

This list of violations includes but is not limited to:
Being rude or verbally abusive to some imms in the past.
Multiplay, and botting violation.
Pkill (back when that was a major offense, not just a good laugh).
Channel abuse.



But there's always been IMM's who are rude or abusive to players......and that's against the IMM rules too..

So I can't really see that as a reason to not let someone be an IMM...if you don't like eachother... leave eachother alone!
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Postby Ambar » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:35 pm

I can see why you'd be denied a staff position because of past transgressions, hell we have all seen a drunk Jaz on ooc as recently as the last few months or so ..

But I seriously doubt a new zone would be denied because of those transgressions .. especially in light of the work you have done in the past .. one of my fav all time zones for one ..

Personality counts tho when adding staff .. You have to have people who dont just fly off the handle and know how to handle mortals in any situation .. errors in judgement after an episode can be hazardous .. you have to be able to step back and assess the event to see both sides of the issue

I am not saying people shouldnt be forgiven .. I know for a FACT that people ARE forgiven .. one of our most active coders can tell you that ..
But a pattern of repeat behavior over years and years .. would you retain an employee that is a super performer if he has a habit of showing to work drunk? Thats kind of counter-productive

Submit your zone work to Shev if Cyric isnt accepting it for reasons you feel are personal .. ask for critiques on what needs to be fixed .. perhaps it just wont fit in with the mud today .. there may be MANY reasons ..

Hell we all know who wrote GF, and that was accepted :P Cant imagine your work would be denied .. hehehe
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Postby Ambar » Fri Sep 21, 2007 3:39 pm

Corth wrote:So I take it that my application to be an admin will likely be denied as well? *Duck*


eep! That'd be like making Hilary Clinton the president

o

wait .. :(
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Postby Cap'n Touk » Fri Sep 21, 2007 4:37 pm

Saying that the game would somehow be catastrophically affected by Cyric stepping down or otherwise is laughable.


Actually.. when you get someone new in a position that can change the game they love, they change it. It CAN be catastrophic because you change directions, you lose the long term vision that keeps everything stable and consistant. I'll shoot myself in my own foot here to make the point -

You get the equipment changes.

That said, Cyric IS doing his roll as a director, he IS active enough to make policy decisions approve zones and everything else I'd put up in his job description. What we need is more help in the Co-ord / Major rolls to post updates and oversee new zones and tweak things around.
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Postby Corth » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:20 pm

Ambar wrote:
Corth wrote:So I take it that my application to be an admin will likely be denied as well? *Duck*


eep! That'd be like making Hilary Clinton the president

o

wait .. :(


Careful! That's like lighting a match in a confined space full of kerosene vapors. Or better yet, its like leaving food out for a starving Teflor and Sarvis.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Birile » Fri Sep 21, 2007 6:36 pm

Hillary '08. :D

I know you're not surprised. :D :D :D
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Postby Tasan » Fri Sep 21, 2007 8:44 pm

Cap'n Touk wrote:I'll shoot myself in my own foot here to make the point -

You get the equipment changes.


See now this is where you and I differ in thought and practice. As far as I'm concerned much of the changes were necessary to keep the game interesting. Yes, there were mistakes made... possibly because of the sheer amount of work involved and the lack of people to take on the task(again under the direction of who?), but in the end the changes made room for things at the higher end.

Personally, and I have stated this before, there was a period of time where any zone was slapped into the game without really thinking about what it would do to the game(again, who?). The entire game suffered because of this and caused much of the headache behind the eq changes. That specific scenario where someone steps in and changes the direction of the game seems a bit outlandish to me considering the other 2 viewpoints in the Forger tripod(tm).

The game has continually evolved and changed and will continue to do so. How do you know that bringing in someone who is overzealous about getting things done doesn't make this place incredibly fun again? We can dream can't we?


Ambar wrote:Hell we all know who wrote GF, and that was accepted :P Cant imagine your work would be denied .. hehehe


That zone was worked on by at least 3 people. I don't think the other 2 involved should be painted in the same light as the one you are speaking of.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Sep 21, 2007 11:19 pm

LOL that was a comment stated in jest, a joke so to speak :P

IE: that zone gear is hideous and it got approved, hehe
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Postby Kegor » Sat Sep 22, 2007 11:52 am

Ambar wrote:But I seriously doubt a new zone would be denied because of those transgressions .. especially in light of the work you have done in the past .. one of my fav all time zones for one ..


Guess again!

Ambar wrote:Personality counts tho when adding staff .. You have to have people who dont just fly off the handle and know how to handle mortals in any situation .. errors in judgement after an episode can be hazardous .. you have to be able to step back and assess the event to see both sides of the issue


I would agree. But, with no need to exercise an extreme diplomatic personality as a mortal, why do it? To put it another way, most people only act professional when they are in a position that requires it. Especially in the case of recreation and online games. This has even been tested true in the very rare instances of drunk immortals speaking publicly as well.

Ambar wrote:Submit your zone work to Shev if Cyric isnt accepting it for reasons you feel are personal ..


I shouldn't have to do that.

The main reason I think they don't allow people to continue writing zones without becoming a staff member is access to the test mud. The test mud does house most of the zones found in the actual mud, and it could be abused. Instead of this current policy, it might be better if they had a seperate dedicated port for each non-staff member area writer. The personalized test mud would contain no other zones except for the zone being worked on, or zones relating to it in some cases. Then let that person go to town building away. Not sure how hard that would be to set up on the machine, but it is a good idea. It is perfect for people with abrassive personalities that get drunk occassionally.
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Postby Dalar » Mon Sep 24, 2007 1:15 am

When I made a zone I got locked out of other zones while I was on the test mud and couldn't use all the god commands.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Marthammor » Mon Sep 24, 2007 6:36 am

Our testmud is a pretty stripped down version of the main mud, at least as far as areas goes. There are no quests available unless they are specifically loaded for someone to work on, and most zones aren't loaded unless someone is working on them. All mobs and objects however are left available to people so they can look up items to add to quests and look at other mobs they may be familiar with to set up their own mobs in that fashion. New builders are also given restricted access to most commands.
So.. access to the testmud is not a reason we don't allow some people on there. We have several people who have accounts on there that don't have imms on the main mud. It basically comes down to how much we trust a person. Even though things are somewhat locked down, there is a still a lot of trouble someone can get into with the limited access they do have.
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Postby Todrael » Sat Sep 29, 2007 1:11 am

No program management.

We've got a Technical Architect (Shev), a Functional Lead (Shar), and a QA Lead (Cyric). But these three people are also acting as program management, configuration control, and change management.

Large software development programs require clear separation of duties, standard processes, lots of communication, and customer-driven requirements gathering. At least this is what people keep telling me where I work (large enterprise software shop) and in the software development and program management books I read, and in the training they give me.

So, I'd like to throw the structure of the software development team out there as one large contributing factor to the state of the game and people's opinions about it.

So it would be great if we could have a Program Manager and/or a dedicated requirements gathering team. That just isn't going to happen due to manpower constraints and skill gaps, so the best thing to do is to understand that this is a flawed process for software development, and that the results will be just as flawed. Be thankful they're willing to wear so many hats so it gets done at all.
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Postby Ragorn » Sat Sep 29, 2007 3:00 am

Doesn't matter. You can't define scope or schedule when your workers are under no compulsion to submit their deliverables. Process breaks down.
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Postby Yasden » Sun Sep 30, 2007 9:02 pm

Scope creep FTL.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Oct 02, 2007 9:25 am

Auril wrote:If you tried emailing me at auril@gmail.com, try auril.frostmaiden@gmail.com instead...

I often look at the people who are roleplaying with us. I look to see if they've been helpful in the past or if there have been some personality quirks that might not work with others. I look for people who are steady players. And I look for people who aren't trying to lead constantly, because while we set the beginning of the story, and are ready for a few directions, ultimately it is the roleplayers who say where things end up.

My sphere has to be able to work with anyone who wants to roleplay regardless of personal opinions about other players, classes, races, etc. Being able to plan ahead, as well as work with sudden changes, is essential. And it is imperative to maintain confidentiality. If this sounds interesting and appealing, and if you are willing to work as part of a team and put in a minimum of five hours a week as a god after you have completed basic admin training, feel free to contact me.

Auril


omg

i've been trying to put a place and time to that name, but the last name in that email did it

you were a shaman before being hired on to the admin sphere during toril 1 right?

i remember. i was hired on at the same time. man...you guys really want to hear a story?

new admins are hired on and told to stay invisibible (this is back during toril 1 doubt it's still like that). they were given these massive rulebooks to read, told to watch, and to only log on their immortal when mystra..or...kia i think it was...was on

well several times i logged on my mortal first to be sure one of them were on before logging on the immortal. a lot of the times though they had invis togged on and i had no idea. so i'd sit, forhours, sending petitions to see if anyone was home and checking /who

about a week later mystra boots me from the admin sphere saying i was spending too much time on my mortal

what....?

yeah. those were the days man. i even got a week suspension for telling her that i disagreed and that i only followed the rules in those ascii-books she gave us and was threatened with being banned and deleted


seriously though, when people talk about the mud dying - i'm 100% positive it has more to do with the fact there are currently 122 running mmorpg's available to english speakers and many many more for other languages right now than anything else.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Oct 02, 2007 12:18 pm

Teyaha was/is an immort? just wow :P

And even if you do know who her mortals were/are .. I dont think you should air it publically
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 02, 2007 3:39 pm

Teyaha wrote:seriously though, when people talk about the mud dying - i'm 100% positive it has more to do with the fact there are currently 122 running mmorpg's available to english speakers and many many more for other languages right now than anything else.


I disagree. The areas sphere is pretty much the sole reason why this MUD is dying. Without good content this game is nothing. The best time vs reward is Tiamat and most zones are weak in comparison. Jot invasion not done? Magma not done? Old zones that were once done each boot are now done on a whim? Make stuff worth doing and not take more than 4 hours.

WoW is an awesome game because of saved instances. Before WoW, there was EQ which was by today's standards, hardcore. Look at all of the family guilds out there who play 3 nights a week 4 hours a night. If the area gods actually catered to the family gamer demographic rather than the hardcore (long zones, time vs reward, rares, boot times), it wouldn't have died.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:16 pm

I think that the ability to transfer equipment freely between characters and the ease of creating new top-level characters also hurt the game. How many people now don't have a handful of well-geared characters? You gear out a couple characters and you can essentially just grind up to 50 and slap your old gear on it for no penalty. Infinite bag space lets people horde ridiculous amounts of stuff, and there's no reason for items to leave the game.

One of the things that I really enjoy about WoW when compared to Toril is that you really have to put work into that particular character to gear it up for end-game stuff. Getting an extra 200 spell damage, or 25 stamina makes WORLDS of difference as you progress. And that makes a lovely segway into what I believe one of the largest problems with Toril is: lack of progression. Everything now is essentially a step to the side, rather than upwards.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Oct 02, 2007 6:19 pm

Ambar wrote:Teyaha was/is an immort? just wow :P

And even if you do know who her mortals were/are .. I dont think you should air it publically


eh...you're talking 10 years ago. i dont remember the chars first name, just that surname because it was rather unique and because we were hired on at the same time
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 02, 2007 8:50 pm

Gormal wrote:I think that the ability to transfer equipment freely between characters and the ease of creating new top-level characters also hurt the game. How many people now don't have a handful of well-geared characters? You gear out a couple characters and you can essentially just grind up to 50 and slap your old gear on it for no penalty. Infinite bag space lets people horde ridiculous amounts of stuff, and there's no reason for items to leave the game.

One of the things that I really enjoy about WoW when compared to Toril is that you really have to put work into that particular character to gear it up for end-game stuff. Getting an extra 200 spell damage, or 25 stamina makes WORLDS of difference as you progress. And that makes a lovely segway into what I believe one of the largest problems with Toril is: lack of progression. Everything now is essentially a step to the side, rather than upwards.


At the same time, people quit because a year later their gear is obsolete on one guy and gearing up an alt takes months. Having gear to make your spells more powerful is great and should be added since melee/archer damage scales with gear. Having tiered progression is cool too.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Oct 02, 2007 11:48 pm

Dalar wrote:
Teyaha wrote:seriously though, when people talk about the mud dying - i'm 100% positive it has more to do with the fact there are currently 122 running mmorpg's available to english speakers and many many more for other languages right now than anything else.


I disagree. The areas sphere is pretty much the sole reason why this MUD is dying. Without good content this game is nothing. The best time vs reward is Tiamat and most zones are weak in comparison. Jot invasion not done? Magma not done? Old zones that were once done each boot are now done on a whim? Make stuff worth doing and not take more than 4 hours.

WoW is an awesome game because of saved instances. Before WoW, there was EQ which was by today's standards, hardcore. Look at all of the family guilds out there who play 3 nights a week 4 hours a night. If the area gods actually catered to the family gamer demographic rather than the hardcore (long zones, time vs reward, rares, boot times), it wouldn't have died.


I don't agree with Tey. It wasn't just more muds, it was better muds and newer better MMORPG's.

I don't agree with all Dalar's points, but I am not entirely against them either. I think it's more then that. It's not JUST areas, it's code too. WoW was loosing people before BC came out, because people didn't have all that time to dedicated towards 40man tier gear, despite them releasing newer and newer 40man raids.

But then wow started tinkering with the game code, and changing things up, and then added to it in perperation for an expansion. The level cap was going to be raised, so new skill trees were added, and as a result new builds came on the scene. That's not areas, that's pure code changes there, and the interest went up significantly before the expansion even came out.

Then when BC came in, a lot of the old die-hards did leave, since their tier gear was supplanted with level 61 greens within minutes, but like you said, a wider audience grew as the game catered to a more relaxed player atmosphere, the casual gamer. Sure there is still the hardcore aspect of BC, but there is a lot there for the casual gamer as well (ala Heroics, and now with the old 40man enchanter recipes being re-available for players exalted with various factions).

It wasn't just new areas tho, it was code too that helps WoW endure.

Because if you look at Guildwars, they haven't done jack with level caps or new code - in comparison, the new AI's are great, and a lot of battles are more difficult - but the amount of new 'areas' content that went in compared to code, it's a HUGE difference. Game mechanics are untouched really. It's the same game with a TON of new area content. But the player base is still dropped off. Having new areas that sucked didn't help it either.

Bottom line, it has to be code AND areas changes/advances to allow an online community to survive from year to year.

Look at how much WoW has changed since it started, code and areas design. Look at how Toril/Sojourn was back in the past, when they used to chance skills/abilities all the time. It kept you on your toes and things interesting. People like to complain (this forum is a living testiment of that with players who don't even play here still staying for years to gripe about the game), and when everything is balanced, you don't have much to complain about.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 03, 2007 1:22 am

Teyaha wrote:omg

i've been trying to put a place and time to that name, but the last name in that email did it


Uh... Auril Frostmaiden is the name of the Forgotten Realms deity. The current Auril was not a staff member in Toril 1, so you are thinking of someone else.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Oct 03, 2007 6:59 am

Llaaldara wrote:
Dalar wrote:
Teyaha wrote:seriously though, when people talk about the mud dying - i'm 100% positive it has more to do with the fact there are currently 122 running mmorpg's available to english speakers and many many more for other languages right now than anything else.


I disagree. The areas sphere is pretty much the sole reason why this MUD is dying. Without good content this game is nothing. The best time vs reward is Tiamat and most zones are weak in comparison. Jot invasion not done? Magma not done? Old zones that were once done each boot are now done on a whim? Make stuff worth doing and not take more than 4 hours.

WoW is an awesome game because of saved instances. Before WoW, there was EQ which was by today's standards, hardcore. Look at all of the family guilds out there who play 3 nights a week 4 hours a night. If the area gods actually catered to the family gamer demographic rather than the hardcore (long zones, time vs reward, rares, boot times), it wouldn't have died.


I don't agree with Tey. It wasn't just more muds, it was better muds and newer better MMORPG's.

I don't agree with all Dalar's points, but I am not entirely against them either. I think it's more then that. It's not JUST areas, it's code too. WoW was loosing people before BC came out, because people didn't have all that time to dedicated towards 40man tier gear, despite them releasing newer and newer 40man raids.

But then wow started tinkering with the game code, and changing things up, and then added to it in perperation for an expansion. The level cap was going to be raised, so new skill trees were added, and as a result new builds came on the scene. That's not areas, that's pure code changes there, and the interest went up significantly before the expansion even came out.

Then when BC came in, a lot of the old die-hards did leave, since their tier gear was supplanted with level 61 greens within minutes, but like you said, a wider audience grew as the game catered to a more relaxed player atmosphere, the casual gamer. Sure there is still the hardcore aspect of BC, but there is a lot there for the casual gamer as well (ala Heroics, and now with the old 40man enchanter recipes being re-available for players exalted with various factions).

It wasn't just new areas tho, it was code too that helps WoW endure.

Because if you look at Guildwars, they haven't done jack with level caps or new code - in comparison, the new AI's are great, and a lot of battles are more difficult - but the amount of new 'areas' content that went in compared to code, it's a HUGE difference. Game mechanics are untouched really. It's the same game with a TON of new area content. But the player base is still dropped off. Having new areas that sucked didn't help it either.

Bottom line, it has to be code AND areas changes/advances to allow an online community to survive from year to year.

Look at how much WoW has changed since it started, code and areas design. Look at how Toril/Sojourn was back in the past, when they used to chance skills/abilities all the time. It kept you on your toes and things interesting. People like to complain (this forum is a living testiment of that with players who don't even play here still staying for years to gripe about the game), and when everything is balanced, you don't have much to complain about.


well my point still stands that there are currently running 122 mmorpg's in english format (i wasnt talking about muds) and that many options are bound to eat into what was - before WoW - a rather small gaming community overall

WoW made the genre accessible to more than the old mudders in many ways. one was obviously brand strength coming off the worldwide success that was starcraft. the other was taking the casual solo of city of heroes amd meshing it with an everquest (toril) style end game

but, and as recently as the AGDC last month, still less than 15% of the total playerbase in WoW has been into SSC

what we have now is a saturate market, with even more options coming out. there are 11 mmorpg's slated for release between now and the end of the year:
Red Stone ( Q3 2007 ) Ruin Online ( Q3 2007 ) Fury ( 10/09/07 ) Age of Armor ( 10/10/07 ) Tabula Rasa ( 11/02/07 ) Hero's Journey ( 2007 ) Pirates of the Burning Sea ( 2007 ) Pirates of the Caribbean Online ( 2007 ) The Chronicles of Spellborn ( 2007 ) SUN ( 2007 ) Project Wiki ( 2007 ) Huxley ( 2007 )

heck and that's not even mentioning the half dozen that were pushed back until next spring

none of them has truly innovated the original mud experience. about the only thing most of them ahve over this mud gameplay wise is ease of access and a less punishing style of exploration/experimentation (ie. no rotting corpses). not saying that's good or bad, but recent studies done by the game industry suggest that casual gaming is where it's at for the next 18 months and it's set to truly explode soon

and you bring up a good point - look at the people posting on this board who dont play. is it because...they dont have time maybe? we are mostly 10+ years older since we started playing. things change, not just in the game


and shev - you are probably right. but she had the same last name. it's what stood out for me because it was on a mortal and where it came from. chances are good it's not the same person though. hell, who's left really when you think about it..
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 03, 2007 4:53 pm

[quote="Llaaldara]Because if you look at Guildwars, they haven't done jack with level caps or new code - in comparison, the new AI's are great, and a lot of battles are more difficult - but the amount of new 'areas' content that went in compared to code, it's a HUGE difference. Game mechanics are untouched really. It's the same game with a TON of new area content. But the player base is still dropped off. Having new areas that sucked didn't help it either.
[/quote]

Toril 2.0 is our new code, but then again that is just like the next wow expac. We have no clue when it will go in but we know it's being developed. I thought GuildWars dropped off because it was mainly focused on PvP which was boring because there was no progression.

Take Sojourn 1-3 for example. The mechanics of the game between then and now have changed drastically as well as areas. The area difference is that people kept one-upping each other and now we have crazy quests and ridiculously long and unrewarding zones. Before, every zone had gear that everyone wanted. Now it's just 1 or 2 really good items and a bunch of garbage.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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