Newbie's Point of View

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Malvareth
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Newbie's Point of View

Postby Malvareth » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:56 am

I've been playing sporadically on and off for a few years. My highest level character is 37, so I am by no means a veteran or even much of an established player. I likely never will be, because I won't give Toril another chance like I have numerous times in the past.

I would, however, come back and play if I was allowed to multiplay two characters at all times.

Since that's not an option, the game is unplayable for me, and likely anyone else who does not have the privilege of a level 50 character with zoneable eq.

Allowing me to play two characters would bring me back. The fact that I can't has made me leave for good.

It's blatantly obvious that a lack of new players is killing this mud.

There's a hint in there somewhere.
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Postby Kegor » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:29 am

First off, thank you for taking the time to explain your situation here. I dislike the idea of people in similar situations reading this with negative impact, but at the same time, there really isn't a way to communicate directly with the entire staff all at once (and no one else).

There are a lot of players that stand behind the two character multi idea. Unfourtunately, no forgers have ever shown any intent to ever back this idea.

The lack of new players is a serious issue caused by a number of things. I wouldn't think that being able to multi-play two characters at once is on the top of the list, but your post would validate the fact that it is on that list.

It would be nice to see the staff come together and throw out some of their age-old policies in an effort to make the game more exciting. Not just for new players, but for all players. I think that the ability and possibility to change in such ways is one of the main reasons I am still around a little.

Anyhow, check back for 2.0 from time to time. We are hoping there will be plenty of people rolling new characters then.
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Postby Malvareth » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:28 am

You're welcome.

The subliminal message that I was vaguely hinting at is that TorilMUD is dying due to a lack of players. The playerbase is simply too small, and everybody knows it. It's a fact. The game is continually losing players and, by the looks if it, gaining none to make up for it.

I know that the lack of multiplay is not the sole cause of this problem. It would, however, bring at least some players back, and possibly also allow the game to keep more of the occasional newcomers. The game is at a point now where every single player counts, and allowing multiplay is not something that takes a team of coders weeks to implement. It takes nothing more than the approval of a staff member, and I do believe they've had plenty of time to consider it.

I know that the staff is knee deep in things to do with the work in progress. I know that the playerbase will grow once Toril2.0 is finished and launched. The question is whether or not it will grow enough, and one thing that has a huge influence on the number of players who stick around is whether or not they remember the game fondly or as a game that was left to die due to neglect.

I play on another mud that is going through a very similar phase. ArmageddonMUD is also being rebuilt from the ground up, an almost identical situation, however their staff has made the sensible decision of not completely abandoning the old game. They know that if they do so, a gigantic chunk of the playerbase will leave, and they'll leave with a negative attitude which will make them less likely to return, and which will give the mud a poor reputation.

If nothing is done to preserve the game, there won't be enough players left to sustain the new one. Allowing each player to control two characters at a time means that anyone at least has a chance to level up and see a large portion of the game world, something that is currently all but impossible. As I suggested in another thread, if players are worried that multiplay is going to create an unbalance then it would be easy to restrict multiplay to characters under level 50.

In either case, I (and evidently many others) find it extremely demotivating to see such an otherwise wonderful game left to succumb to neglect and eventually forgotten. And that's the result if nothing is done.

It's not like there's anything to lose by now.
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:40 pm

I can understand that you just want to group with yourself.

But you really should give grouping with others a chance.

LFGC and LFG are 2 ways to get an xp group. Tells is a 3rd.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Oct 09, 2007 3:44 pm

Disoputlip wrote:I can understand that you just want to group with yourself.

But you really should give grouping with others a chance.

LFGC and LFG are 2 ways to get an xp group. Tells is a 3rd.


The issue is not, not knowing how to look for a group. The issue is lack of groupable people low level. I know first hand, I've been playing a low level warrior, level 24 at the moment. And I consistantly look for people on to group with. When I ask generally I get no answer, or no response, or they're off grouped with someone much higher level for soaking up exp.

It's annoying for me, and i'm fairly decently equipped. I can solo if I have to, but for true newbies, it has to be annoying as crap to have no one around to group with, but when you who, you see a mass of level 50's down to 40ish, and then if you're lucky one, or two level 20ish types, or a level 35ish.
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Postby elarir » Tue Oct 09, 2007 4:21 pm

I'm a bit of a newbie now .. Level 22. It's taken me the last 7 days or so to get there but I have been able to find groups pretty much every day. The problem is that I have to play for 5+ hours just to get a level now because there are almost never all the classes we need. Usually its me (a ranger) and a warrior and we have to rest for 10-20 mins between every 2-3 fights.

I've had a lot of time off the last few days so I've been able to level quick, but when I have to get working more again it's going to be pretty hard to put in all those hours :) I agree it would be nice to have another character like a bard or something to follow us around just to smooth out the long rest periods.

My consolation is that if I can push on till level 40 then I can begin getting groups to better my shoddy equipment. I'm a little worried however, and others have shared with me as well, that once I reach 40 my character wont be really wanted/needed for groups so i'll have to go through the same large ammount of work to level up another character. Maybe being able to exp 2 characters till just before zone-ready would help this, that way i only have to push along for one long month or so before I can offer groups the ability to play one class or another or as they require, instead of two long months.
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Postby Teyaha » Tue Oct 09, 2007 6:52 pm

elarir wrote:I'm a bit of a newbie now .. Level 22. It's taken me the last 7 days or so to get there but I have been able to find groups pretty much every day. The problem is that I have to play for 5+ hours just to get a level now because there are almost never all the classes we need. Usually its me (a ranger) and a warrior and we have to rest for 10-20 mins between every 2-3 fights.

I've had a lot of time off the last few days so I've been able to level quick, but when I have to get working more again it's going to be pretty hard to put in all those hours :) I agree it would be nice to have another character like a bard or something to follow us around just to smooth out the long rest periods.

My consolation is that if I can push on till level 40 then I can begin getting groups to better my shoddy equipment. I'm a little worried however, and others have shared with me as well, that once I reach 40 my character wont be really wanted/needed for groups so i'll have to go through the same large ammount of work to level up another character. Maybe being able to exp 2 characters till just before zone-ready would help this, that way i only have to push along for one long month or so before I can offer groups the ability to play one class or another or as they require, instead of two long months.



hehe

now try it with no twink gear, and no groups


with all the online rpg gaming options out there now, you really do have to realize that such a system isnt going to survive anymore. many of us have fond memories of the punishing times of the original toril, but the overall gaming community simply has no patience for it now.

new players we try to get into this game will be from the same pool of players who have played mmorpg's, and not even everquest is as punishing to low levels as this MUD

a two char multiplay would help, but not the ultimate solution. lettings evils and goodies group would help too, but not the ultimate solution. there prob isnt an ultimate solution that wouldnt require making the game a LOT easier - which would just generate a new round of complaining
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Postby Disoputlip » Tue Oct 09, 2007 8:03 pm

I hardly ever play prime (US) time, but when I play it is fairly rare I hear the LFGC beeing used by a lowbie that wants to group.

Sure it happens, but I don't at all see the trend some of you try to explain.

Yes, if you are very semi-afk I can understand you don't want to group, and still wants to xp.

-

I come from a 2 people multiplay mud, and have therefore done my share of it. Going down that road is dangerous I think.

Mabye I can accept some form of multi, like say it was allowed to have 2 chars on and play them, but only in Scardale. That way multi would not only be restricted to a level, but also to a zone where no highlevels go.

Beyond that I think people need to find groups, even if it sucks.
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Postby Tasan » Tue Oct 09, 2007 9:07 pm

elarir wrote:I'm a bit of a newbie now .. Level 22. It's taken me the last 7 days or so to get there but I have been able to find groups pretty much every day. The problem is that I have to play for 5+ hours just to get a level now because there are almost never all the classes we need. Usually its me (a ranger) and a warrior and we have to rest for 10-20 mins between every 2-3 fights.


SEE: http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=181299&highlight=#181299
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Postby elarir » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:26 pm

Wow Tasan in that link Ifin's estimates about exp above your post frighten me.

Considering I make 50% avg every two hours for levels 20 till 30, 25% avg every two hours 30-40 then 13% avg every two hours from 40-50. Playing 2 to 4 hours a day I can estimate to expect to go from lvl 22 to 30 in 7-9 days, 30-40 in 12 to 14 days, and 40-50 in 23-28 days..

Those are very rough numbers and I don't really know how close to reality that is.. Will it really take around 42 to 60 days of solid exp'ing to attain level 50?

I think that doesn't sound terrible, but what if there is no one to group with, I have to wait around online sometimes for hours just to get a group, which isn't really acceptable if I only have a few hours a day to play to begin with.
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Postby Sundara » Tue Oct 09, 2007 10:46 pm

Malvareth wrote:remember the game fondly or as a game that was left to die due to neglect.



While on my downtime at work, I was doing a lil' reading on RP stories (great stories by the authors, btw!) and reading some old battle logs. It was nostalgic because it made me remember how FUN it use to be back in the old days and I thought to myself, 'why not do a lil' muddin' again?' But then remembered of all the time that had to be invested again on this kind of hobby. If staff would consider and actually applied some of the players suggestions to bring back more players old and new, heck, it might bring me back, too! And I'd promise not to do another spanky in the crypts. Well, who am I kidding? I'm not good on my promises, especially if they are accidental! :0 On a serious note, I must confess I haven't really logged onto the mud, and if I do, it's quite brief and really once in a blue moon, but from reading some of the posts, I gather the mud is still staggy. Either way though, the temptation is there to try a lil' muddin' again with a new char. One of the things that made it most fun for me was the fresh start and growing with the players, bad or good adventures and lots of laughs.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:29 pm

Sundara wrote:I gather the mud is still staggy.


There really isn't much of a "middle class." This is most evident when attempting to trade gear. Old players who have been around for 5+ years tend to have everything they desire and hence no impetus to trade, as well as no desire to trade due to a fear of not understanding current shifts in equipment balance and therefore getting burned. Meanwhile, due to the design of the system it is impossible for new players to have anything to offer old players since the higher levels can harvest the same items more efficiently and more effectively. (If a level 5 can kill something, a level 50 can kill a room full of it in less time.)

One thing that might change this is if the ores harvested for various quests were only accessible to new players or were equally accessible. A good example of such a trade system occurred in Diablo II: the lowest grade of gem was needed for certain high-end upgrades. This grade of gem took the same amount of time to farm for a high level player and a low level player, so there was a brisk trade in cast-off mid level gear for these gems.

I will commend the auction system, though. Younger players can farm things which may not be of immediate use to them and sell them at auc to accumulate the plats to buy useful stuff. Recently I've even seen high-end gear (musp crown, tia helm) on it.
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Postby Ifin » Tue Oct 09, 2007 11:45 pm

Beating the dead horse.

It's been found empirically that we've only gained 6.5 new players to make it to the "actual" game in 2 years, 4 of which came up together at the same time 2 years ago.

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19746

These newbies in this post also confirm that they also view the actual game at starting at very high levels.

And yes, it will take you *minimum* 3-6+ months to make it to "the game" as a newbie, most likely towards the latter part of the scale.

Good luck!
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Postby elarir » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:15 am

:(
Last edited by elarir on Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:56 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:17 am

elarir wrote:Will it really take around 42 to 60 days of solid exp'ing to attain level 50?


That's not really the right question to ask. I started zoning at level 36 or so, and I don't see any reason why new players can't as long as they're willing to try hard to fit in and willingly accept that they will die a lot. Of course, in my day I was actually able to lead large groups of willing newbies, but I refuse to believe that my absence is the sole factor that has decimated the MUD. It's impossible to believe that I'm the only one willing to take newbies zoning.

Anyhow, to address your question, the game doesn't begin once you hit 50; it begins once you start zoning. When exactly that is is partly up to you. I was zoning for years before I hit 50; hitting 50 just sort of happened one day and I never planned for it.

(And often 2 hours is enough for zoning.)
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Postby Corth » Wed Oct 10, 2007 4:49 am

Heres a radical idea. Start everyone at level 41. High levels have NEVER been an indication of competence on this mud. I have lead TIA, BC, and a whole load of other zones, and I never had a char reach level 50. Got to 49 once for all of a few minutes. The only thing that high levels have ever indicated, is the stamina to sit around mindlessly for hundreds of hours killing the same crap over and over again. Why not just get rid of that mindless grind? Let every new character take part in 'the real game' and start zoning immediately.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:16 am

Sure you can "tag along" at lvl 36... to lvl 46. But you're not really doing anything but watch text fly by in zones.

And Corth, that's too extreme and example. I still learn new things from each and every new class I roll as I level, and it's still useful if xp was structured so they have an incentive to explore the MUD, ie HP/IC xp sucks etc. Xp just needs to be sped up, which arguments have been laid out in post after post.

Again, empirically, it's just a question of how long to hit 46+, it shouldn't be zero, but it doesn't need to be 6+ months where you don't learn anything. Again, it's been laid out before.
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:31 am

Ifin wrote:Sure you can "tag along" at lvl 36... to lvl 46. But you're not really doing anything but watch text fly by in zones.

And Corth, that's too extreme and example. I still learn new things from each and every new class I roll as I level, and it's still useful if xp was structured so they have an incentive to explore the MUD, ie HP/IC xp sucks etc. Xp just needs to be sped up, which arguments have been laid out in post after post.

Again, empirically, it's just a question of how long to hit 46+, it shouldn't be zero, but it doesn't need to be 6+ months where you don't learn anything. Again, it's been laid out before.


there was a time when IC and HP were some of the best xp in the game
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Postby Kegor » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:12 am

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Disoputlip wrote:I can understand that you just want to group with yourself.

But you really should give grouping with others a chance.

LFGC and LFG are 2 ways to get an xp group. Tells is a 3rd.


The issue is not, not knowing how to look for a group. The issue is lack of groupable people low level. I know first hand, I've been playing a low level warrior, level 24 at the moment. And I consistantly look for people on to group with. When I ask generally I get no answer, or no response, or they're off grouped with someone much higher level for soaking up exp.

It's annoying for me, and i'm fairly decently equipped. I can solo if I have to, but for true newbies, it has to be annoying as crap to have no one around to group with, but when you who, you see a mass of level 50's down to 40ish, and then if you're lucky one, or two level 20ish types, or a level 35ish.


I rolled a warrior a couple months ago myself. Finding low level players that would even be useful to group with is very rare. A group of 2 warriors does not make for very good exp etc. So it is even more limited by class selection. I still do solo exp occasionally with my nice eq for limited gains, just for the hell of it. Otherwise I have to tug a friend that might be on to give me a little help. If I didn't have either of those options, I would have quit a long time ago.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:19 pm

Ifin wrote:It's been found empirically that we've only gained 6.5 new players to make it to the "actual" game in 2 years, 4 of which came up together at the same time 2 years ago.


Your thread can't be considered anything more than an informal poll, and it has a very low degree of accuracy due to your information gathering technique. I respect your attempts at gathering this data, but presenting it as definitively proven data is misleading.

As to the rest of this post, we are of course aware of the issues and are working hard to bring new content into the game which will fix many of the problems concerning experience and grouping. We do not feel that allowing open multiplay is a good solution at this time. Thank you for your continued patience.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:20 pm

Ifin wrote:Again, empirically, it's just a question of how long to hit 46+, it shouldn't be zero, but it doesn't need to be 6+ months where you don't learn anything. Again, it's been laid out before.


The problem is that people aren't learning anything on the way. If they went zoning they'd at least learn a few things while watching that text scroll by. :D
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Postby bawog » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:27 pm

Going to have to agree with Mori on this one. The problem with some not all of the newbies are that they are not willing to take the time to learn their class etc. And in terms of multiplay I'm one against it, for the simple fact that it would bring a downfall to grouping all together except for larger zones. In response to Corth with mindlessly sitting and grinding exp, I for one didn't get 50 and was leading zones as my enchanter, and pretty much have led everything you can think of. Its not the equipment, its not the level in which you show on the who list, its the person behind that screen. I'd rather group with a level 41 character who tries, and pays attention, and is willing to learn as they make mistakes than someone who is level 50 and has no fugging clue whats going on. So in conclusion I'd say that we as a player base need to make it a point to reach out, help new players, teach them do whatever it takes to help bring some new life into this mud. That is all for now.

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Postby Ambar » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:35 pm

oops
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Postby Malvareth » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:36 pm

Your thread can't be considered anything more than an informal poll, and it has a very low degree of accuracy due to your information gathering technique. I respect your attempts at gathering this data, but presenting it as definitively proven data is misleading.


His information may not be mathematically correct in determining how many players the game has gained and kept in the past two years, or whatever it was, but it certainly does give a decent picture of the situation. And the situation happens to be that only a neglectible amount of fresh blood has gone in, while a staggering amount of veteran players have left. And I don't doubt that many of them have left for good.

As to the rest of this post, we are of course aware of the issues and are working hard to bring new content into the game which will fix many of the problems concerning experience and grouping. We do not feel that allowing open multiplay is a good solution at this time. Thank you for your continued patience.


Forgive me for sounding like a pain in the ass, but that's just not good enough. For one thing, I want to know why you don't feel that open multiplay is a good solution. My opinion, and evidently many others', is that it's exactly the thing we need in order for the game to remain playable until 2.0 is finished. Neither do I see how new content is the answer; one of the most prominent problems is that new players don't stay because they'll never get anywhere by themselves. Are you counting on some new content bringing back enough former players to remedy this problem? I know for a fact that a newcomer won't care about the number of areas or quests if they never get past level 25 due to being unable to find groups and unable to solo properly in their useless newbie equipment.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 10, 2007 2:48 pm

That's why I suggested making an economic niche for new players. It would let them earn better gear without making them subject to handouts.

Let me ask you something, Malvareth. After playing multi for a few years, always determining your own schedule, never having anyone demanding that you adjust your style of play to suit theirs, and never having to deal with contentious item splits or anything of the sort, how well do you think you will reintegrate into zoning groups? How well do you think you will take to having your autonomy and independence removed when multi gets taken out again?
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Postby Malvareth » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:03 pm

Let me ask you something, Malvareth. After playing multi for a few years, always determining your own schedule, never having anyone demanding that you adjust your style of play to suit theirs, and never having to deal with contentious item splits or anything of the sort, how well do you think you will reintegrate into zoning groups? How well do you think you will take to having your autonomy and independence removed when multi gets taken out again?


I was told I did an acceptable job the two times I did zone, after having played more or less solo with my three characters (levels 34, 36 and 37). It depends largely on the individual and their previous experience with similar styles of play, even if it comes from other games. Someone who has raided extensively in EQ or WoW will probably do a decent job on their first zone run here because they know the importance of discipline and following orders. Of course such things as in-depth class and code knowledge helps a great deal, but it's just as much about having the right mindset. After all, most classes only have a small number of jobs in a group, and while it's a great benefit to be a master of a class, it's pretty easy to learn what's strictly necessary. The rest will come naturally, and to be honest, my impression is that most of what you learn during low- and mid-levels is fairly redundant at high levels.

But that's not the point. What does it matter how well I'll do in a zone group if I've quit the game long before I reach that point? That's pretty much the issue here: players are leaving, and too few newcomers are staying. One of the main reasons for them not staying is the fact that it's too difficult (usually impossible) to find groups. One thing that may help that problem is to allow multiplay - hell, if it doesn't work it could always be revoked - and if nothing else, it would at least present us with a bigger chance that enough players are even around to zone. I know I didn't learn very much from levels 1-37, most classes are one-trick ponies by design, so I really don't think playing up as a single-player duo is going to yield substantially different results compared to leveling up in groups. Nothing that can't be learned in a relatively short time once the player is at the point where grouping isn't a myth, anyway.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Oct 10, 2007 3:13 pm

Malvareth wrote:
Let me ask you something, Malvareth. After playing multi for a few years, always determining your own schedule, never having anyone demanding that you adjust your style of play to suit theirs, and never having to deal with contentious item splits or anything of the sort, how well do you think you will reintegrate into zoning groups? How well do you think you will take to having your autonomy and independence removed when multi gets taken out again?


I was told I did an acceptable job the two times I did zone, after having played more or less solo with my three characters (levels 34, 36 and 37).


I don't think you quite understand what I'm saying. Multiplay is inimical to those good habits and skills that you need for grouping. I am in no way saying that you can't develop skills solo, just that multiplay will ruin the mindset that one needs to group. Have you ever been on a MUD where multiplay was allowed and NOT seen people quit in droves when it was made illegal again?

Anyhow it may interest you to know that one of the other avenues Shev is exploring is mercenaries, which will allow you to essentially be grouped without having to multiplay.
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Postby Malvareth » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:03 pm

And again, my point is that multiplay, while not an optimal solution, is better than the alternative which is an essentially defunct mud. That's the direction Toril is headed.

Also, I don't see how mercenaries is a superior solution to multiplay. If I understand it right, mercenaries are basically NPC group members. How is that better than grouping with a second character that you control? Unless mercenaries is something else entirely, in which case you can ignore this.
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:03 pm

Malvareth wrote:Forgive me for sounding like a pain in the ass, but that's just not good enough. For one thing, I want to know why you don't feel that open multiplay is a good solution. My opinion, and evidently many others', is that it's exactly the thing we need in order for the game to remain playable until 2.0 is finished.


Sorry for not being more clear. I believe that opening up the MUD to multiplay will hurt rather than help the MUD by further removing the need to group with other players. My intent is make a game that is playable by one character at a time, and I'm not ready to sacrifice that ideal for anything but a last resort. A MUD full of multiplay bots is not something I would want to play as a new player.

Malvareth wrote:Neither do I see how new content is the answer; one of the most prominent problems is that new players don't stay because they'll never get anywhere by themselves. Are you counting on some new content bringing back enough former players to remedy this problem?


I am referring to 2.0 when I speak of new content in this context. I believe this is, indeed, the answer. All I can ask is that you be patient while I finish up addressing these issues at the root. It takes longer than a quick bandage, ibut it will be worth it in the long run.
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Postby Malvareth » Wed Oct 10, 2007 5:15 pm

Then I'll see you in 2.0. Will you be posting on TMS or another mud advertising site when it's ready for launch?
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Postby Shevarash » Wed Oct 10, 2007 6:18 pm

Possibly, but your best bet is to check this site - or the cMUD icon description, if you're a cMUD user, as that text will be updated to reflect 2.0.
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Postby Botef » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:38 pm

I can see where a lot of people get the idea that open multi will increase playability and therefore increase our player pool.

I'd have to agree though that it opens more negatives than positives. We've already seen that because of the way xp splits people have little incentive to add more players to an xp group. By allowing multi your actually further discouraging adding people to the group by making players more functional on a solo level. If I can use two chars to xp faster than my 1 its double the gain, both in speed of xp and the fact that I can xp two chars at once.

In the long run this does nothing to benefit grouping of new players with other players beyond making xp easier for them solo. It also presents a additional consideration. New players usually notice the top heavy nature of this MUD (game 'starts' at lvl 40). If multi were also in effect they'd also be presented with the dilemma of having to generate eq for TWO characters at the same time to xp efficiently which is already enough of a headache for a new player gearing up 1 character.

IMO increasing split xp in groups would do way more to resolve this, and without the added headache for the Admin sphere of managing mutli-characters, with about the same amount of effort.
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Postby Malia » Wed Oct 10, 2007 7:42 pm

If any of the newbies read this... please contact me i enjoy exping players when i have the time.

Tell kegor find teba.

Find me and i will do what i can to help you enjoy the game. If you know where to exp, it doesnt take that long.

Think my record is lvl 45 in 24hours of ptime with grey elven rogue. Definately the exception but also far from 3-6 months of playing.

Best of luck and see you in the game!
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Postby Corth » Wed Oct 10, 2007 8:23 pm

Shevarash wrote:Sorry for not being more clear. I believe that opening up the MUD to multiplay will hurt rather than help the MUD by further removing the need to group with other players. My intent is make a game that is playable by one character at a time, and I'm not ready to sacrifice that ideal for anything but a last resort. A MUD full of multiplay bots is not something I would want to play as a new player.


Agree 100%

Play with yourself somewhere else!
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Postby Tasan » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:35 pm

Shevarash wrote:A MUD full of multiplay bots is not something I would want to play as a new player.


Which is why Toril for 7 years has catered to the single-play bot. </rimshot>

I just find it hilarious that an actual new person is telling you to your face the reason you can't keep people here and you tell him to continue to be patient. Meanwhile, any new player who stops by here won't probably spend much time "being patient" for a game they have no ties to. If you can't hook them with what is there now, telling them to wait isn't going to work real well.

I think everyone is tired of being patient and you do yourself a disservice by alienating new players because you have some "ideal" you want somewhere down the line. Having goals is by all means great, but what good does it do to code 2.0 when no one is around to play it?

Speeding up regen times would take all of 5 minutes and I would love to see how that would "destroy" some ideal you have for the game.

Speeding up ships might take 15 minutes, but I assure you it wouldn't cause a massive instability in gameplay.

Right now everyone plays the waiting game...
Wait for mem
Wait for transport
Wait for regen
Wait for someone else to log on
Wait for promises to be fulfilled...

I dunno. I'm tired of waiting myself.
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Postby Ifin » Wed Oct 10, 2007 9:42 pm

Shev,

I disagree. I think I've interacted w/most of the people playing and have asked around pretty well.

If they are still active, or active recently, and reached those levels, I think I would have stumbled across it.

Here's another incentive to bring the people you think I've overlooked out fo the woodwork: I'm giving away my 4 sets of eq to these people. (Again, I personally think that passing on eq from retired people is part of the eq inflation problem, but I don't care and at this point it can help equalize things)

So again, for those people I "missed" let them know. I really doubt I will find THAT many new people, so I stick with that 6.5ish number.
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Postby Raiwen » Wed Oct 10, 2007 11:15 pm

I agree with Tasan.

Make the game faster.

Less time sinks.

We're old, and the longer we wait around for stuff the quicker we reach the great mud in the sky. I'd much rather be mudding instead of waiting for a ferry/mem/regen/whatever when that day comes.

Get rid of resfx.

I know why it was put it. Hell, I was probably in some of those groups that figured out interesting ways to abuse it.

Bump up xp.. or at least zone xp. Invasion XP has to be the best xp evar. Why can't I notch like that in brass? or crypts?

If I could notch 10-20 points in crypts or brass in 20-30 minutes, and it takes me two-three hours doing CM xp to get the same thing, guess which I'll be doing? (I'm not talking rogue or invoker xp)

Make the game faster.

If it takes a newbie to get lvl50 in 3 months instead of a year, then so be it.
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Postby Ifin » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:27 am

Why would you state why ress fx was put in, and then advocate getting rid of it?

And another example, for moonwell in another thread - sure squids have instant holes, but did you ever figure squids don't have bark/heal/vit, coupled w/emergency pwt? That's a biggie when twinking stuff. Most well time sink is when the leader isn't taking advantage of downtime, and coordinating instant wellbacks or gathering people on the fly instead of waiting til group formed then welling - skill separation.

Some time sinks add legitimate atmosphere and are part of playing the "game".

I sarcastically said that one we finally form a group, let's petition and the imms can roll a dice to see who dies or if we complete a zone.

It's dangerous to suggest labelling things such as mem time, travelling, ress fx as pure time sinks and say just cut down on it across the board etc. They impact balance and actual game play.

Like ress fx, why make a temple room in the cities where if you are there it's like always being in double bard song? In zones, w/a bard, fx is already pretty quick. If you're in the city, you're probably not twinking and such a room would be more feasible than just getting rid of fx completely.

I agree some things should be sped up, but to say, for example, "let's stop aging completely" (adds atmosphere) to "increase the effects of rejuvenate major" (which sounds reasonable) is another.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Oct 11, 2007 12:57 am

i dont see what the problem with allowing multiplay until 2.0 goes live then no longer allowing it

nobody is playing the game now except a couple people. the level grind is actually pretty harsh at low levels if you arent playing a ranger/warrior/paladin/anti or have really good gear - or just a lot of patience.

really the game has devolved into low levels being people levelling new alts. all you gotta do is look at them and the stuff they are wearing. i dont evenknow where most of it comes from.

but i do know the original hook that toril had is gone. toril had no real competition for quality gameplay for a while. people came and played here looking for a good game and/or looking for rp and were willing to put up with the iron-handed prejudices of mystra among other things because it was an excellent game and there was no real competition that wasnt a gimmicky mud (or diablo....heh)

but now...now there's a lot of competition. and like the mud, there are many korean grinders out there that are free to play and work a lot like this place but without as many penalties

i like this game, i really do. there doesnt seem to be anyone left from the old days (or i just dont recognize their new alts) really. ooc is rarely used. it's a very quiet game now

somehow i have a hard time seeing how allowing people to two box this game will destroy it, especially if it's only allowed between now and when 2.0 goes live. i know the admins have easy to use tools to check the ip's being used by various characters at any give moment, and we dont have a large enough playerbase where that could possibly be too daunting a task to minimize it to two chars per ip.

allowing two boxing would prob let even the old timers play alts they've wanted to explore for years, but simply didnt have the extra time to deal with or dedicate to, or simply didnt want to deal with the lowbie stuff solo anymore even with their uber gear.

at best, it might bring a couple of old timers back to good around. at worse it gives the mud a ton of new pfiles. at the very worst people keep cheating after 2.0 giving the admins a (albeit brief after the hammer drops) headache. shrug

just seems like a win-win to me. a win for players to goof around while they wait for highly anticipated changes to the overall gameplay, and a win for the mud's administration as it's a quick band-aid that will most likely tide everyone over until you are ready with 2.0


i think one harsh reality that hasnt been addressed in this thread is the fact that it's highly doubtful 2.0 will revitalize the evil pbase. it almost makes no sense from a resource allocation standpoint to even have two sides of the game anymore. all of the high-profile key movers and shakers of the evil community have rolled equivalent goodies. it's doubtful that introducing 2.0 will be motivation enough to go back to dealing with dayblindness, lengthy cr's or even the UD.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:08 am

Tasan wrote:
I just find it hilarious that an actual new person is telling you to your face the reason you can't keep people here and you tell him to continue to be patient. Meanwhile, any new player who stops by here won't probably spend much time "being patient" for a game they have no ties to. If you can't hook them with what is there now, telling them to wait isn't going to work real well.


If I could instantly make him happy and stay, I certainly would. Opening up to multiplay is not a solution that I believe in, and from the looks of this thread neither do a lot of players. Furthermore, when a player comes on here and posts a "I'm leaving unless you do xyz" post, that person is already as good as gone.

Tasan wrote:I think everyone is tired of being patient and you do yourself a disservice by alienating new players because you have some "ideal" you want somewhere down the line. Having goals is by all means great, but what good does it do to code 2.0 when no one is around to play it?


I understand, I'm tired of having to ask for patience as well However, I think I would be doing all of you a disservice if I sacrificed the ideals of this MUD to stop one person from leaving. If you read this thread it's pretty clear that most players do not agree with this idea. Are you suggesting that the responsible course of action is to change basic tenets of the MUD on a whim, to satisfy a few people that threaten to leave?

Tasan wrote:Speeding up regen times would take all of 5 minutes and I would love to see how that would "destroy" some ideal you have for the game.

Speeding up ships might take 15 minutes, but I assure you it wouldn't cause a massive instability in gameplay.


I don't recall speaking to either of those things in my post in this thread. Feel free to start a thread on them.

Tasan wrote:Right now everyone plays the waiting game...
Wait for mem
Wait for transport
Wait for regen
Wait for someone else to log on
Wait for promises to be fulfilled...

I dunno. I'm tired of waiting myself.


I'm sorry? I don't like waiting either, but software development takes time. If you have a suggestion I'm open to hearing it.
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Postby Tasan » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:50 am

Shevarash wrote:If I could instantly make him happy and stay, I certainly would. Opening up to multiplay is not a solution that I believe in, and from the looks of this thread neither do a lot of players. Furthermore, when a player comes on here and posts a "I'm leaving unless you do xyz" post, that person is already as good as gone.


I don't recall speaking to multiplay in my post. As much as that one person might be gone, at least you can take their final feedback with a grain of salt and know that there are probably 3 other people who aren't as vocal thinking the same thing.

Shevarash wrote:Are you suggesting that the responsible course of action is to change basic tenets of the MUD on a whim, to satisfy a few people that threaten to leave?


If a basic tenet of this game is "it takes forever to do ANYTHING" than yes, you're damn right I'm saying change it.

Shevarash wrote:
Tasan wrote:Speeding up regen times would take all of 5 minutes and I would love to see how that would "destroy" some ideal you have for the game.

Speeding up ships might take 15 minutes, but I assure you it wouldn't cause a massive instability in gameplay.


I don't recall speaking to either of those things in my post in this thread. Feel free to start a thread on them.


That's just the thing. It's been posted now several hundred times by a multitude of people. We shouldn't have to "start a new topic" everytime someone brings up a good idea that many people agree with. Go read the Time Sinks thread ffs, you're the one who cut the "discussion" out of another thread in the first place.

Shevarash wrote:I'm sorry? I don't like waiting either, but software development takes time. If you have a suggestion I'm open to hearing it.


I'm sorry too. A lot of people that really care about this game have tried to give you ways to make it at least playable in current form and you've basically ignored them. Telling me "Oh well that'll be fixed in an update that's TBD!" isn't doing a lot for making me want to stick around.

There are very minimalistic things you can do, in an incredibly short amount of time, to at least throw a bone to the people who are still "waiting patiently" for this grand update to come.

As for my suggestions... My suggestion is you start listening to what little vocal pbase you have left. Those that are playing now don't give a shit if 2.0 takes another week extra to come out if the game is at least PLAYABLE in the interim.

Thanks for at least responding.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:53 am

You know, Twyl, I get why you're pissed off. You clearly care a lot about this game, and I understand that feeling. However, I have to say that the tone of your posts is inflammatory and isn't serving your point well. I *AM* listening, you don't have to beat me over the head.

That said, I know you mean well and I will try to take points as they were intended. I'd appreciate a little more civility in return.
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Postby sotana » Thu Oct 11, 2007 4:58 am

I realize I'm not part of the loudest posting voices when I say the game absolutely does not have to start at lvl 40-whatever and it definitely is not all about zoning, but I think it needs to be said. Sure, zoning may very well be the personal preference for many people (understandable for players who have mudded here long enough to feel there is pretty much nothing they haven't seen/learned so all that is left for them is zoning) but I think we do newbies a disservice when we tell them that is the point of the game, as an established fact. We almost set them up to be dissatisfied with a mud we're telling them has nothing for them until level 40-whatever. Let them discover the mud for themselves just like we all did!

As they do, they may well find they want to get right to that zoning but some may also find that, because they haven't been here 10+ years like many of the vocal veterans, there's a lot of learning they can do along the way that is actually fun. They haven't yet had the time to wander into Myth Drannor and drag a global tracker around the world while they run for their lives, get lost in UM1 and fall into a bottomless pit (fun for the whole family right there!), or discover Aldric's special fondness for female characters.

Personally, my favorite parts of the mud have been mapping, dying, exploring, dying, throwing myself at mobs to figure out how they respond, more dying... all stuff I have spent hours and hours and hours doing alone with great, simple-minded pleasure (although, admittedly, it has also been fun when I've been able to talk a couple of people into coming along to die with me). I'm willing to bet that lots of the experienced players saying zoning is all there is to the game enjoyed their time in that learning phase too to some degree, when they first started mudding.

I'm a bit glad I didn't really discover the bbs until a couple of years into mudding here because I might have believed the experienced voices posting that it was all about zoning and put all my energy into getting to that all-important zoning level. I've zoned a lot, led zones a healthy amount (or unhealthy, depending on who you ask) and enjoyed both but there is so much more to the mud that I still love and, heck, I've been here 5-ish years (with a truly ugly amount of ptime)! So consider this experienced voice as saying, for folks learning the game, there is still much, much fun to be had in the game in addition to zoning.
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Postby Kegor » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:37 am

Shevarash wrote:Sorry for not being more clear. I believe that opening up the MUD to multiplay will hurt rather than help the MUD by further removing the need to group with other players. My intent is make a game that is playable by one character at a time, and I'm not ready to sacrifice that ideal for anything but a last resort. A MUD full of multiplay bots is not something I would want to play as a new player.


Would you condsider allowing 2 character multi-play as a temporary 'bandage' for the current situation and disallow it again when 2.0 is implimented?
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Postby Kegor » Thu Oct 11, 2007 5:48 am

Raiwen wrote:I agree with Tasan.

Make the game faster.

Less time sinks.

We're old, and the longer we wait around for stuff the quicker we reach the great mud in the sky. I'd much rather be mudding instead of waiting for a ferry/mem/regen/whatever when that day comes.

Get rid of resfx.

I know why it was put it. Hell, I was probably in some of those groups that figured out interesting ways to abuse it.

Bump up xp.. or at least zone xp. Invasion XP has to be the best xp evar. Why can't I notch like that in brass? or crypts?

If I could notch 10-20 points in crypts or brass in 20-30 minutes, and it takes me two-three hours doing CM xp to get the same thing, guess which I'll be doing? (I'm not talking rogue or invoker xp)

Make the game faster.

If it takes a newbie to get lvl50 in 3 months instead of a year, then so be it.


I couldn't agree more.

Res fatigue for example. The way it is now, people go to great lengths to avoid doing it in zones unless it is absolutely necessary. It just makes the time it takes to get someone back to the zone without ressing them, and then save the ress for later take even longer than it would to ress right away (for the individual).

Again, even as just a temporary bandages, little things of this nature add up to keeping players interested in new fixes to old issues until such time they are fully addressed with the new release.
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Postby Kegor » Thu Oct 11, 2007 6:11 am

sotana wrote:Personally, my favorite parts of the mud have been mapping, dying, exploring, dying, throwing myself at mobs to figure out how they respond, more dying... all stuff I have spent hours and hours and hours doing alone with great, simple-minded pleasure (although, admittedly, it has also been fun when I've been able to talk a couple of people into coming along to die with me). I'm willing to bet that lots of the experienced players saying zoning is all there is to the game enjoyed their time in that learning phase too to some degree, when they first started mudding.


Those were my favorite parts of the mud, too. This is why I advocate faster zone production and less denial of potential writers. But anyways, you can't get to that point of wanting to explore extensively without feeling it's all going to be worthwhile.

As for what you were saying about learning the mud as we did, and taking your time and enjoying the process of leveling - you can't really do that when everyone else is a veteran player with 8 level 50 alts. You can, if you get lucky and make some friends that play the same hours as you and have the same experience status. But starting off playing as a new player these days is in no way comparable to how we had it when we first started.

Food for thought. A very good number of us started a more serious playtime rampage after the last pwipe. It leveled the playing field and opened doors into groups we previously could not get into with the larger pbase numbers. This is the same thing with a lesser pbase, except those veteran players that started more seriously at last pwipe have too much to lose now and not as much time to put back in. So basically by not pwiping, we are trading to keep our veteran players, who are slowly dwindling out anyways, for any new players at all. We might be screwed either way on that issue, but nobody knows. All I know is that a mud can't grow with no new players.
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Postby Malvareth » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:01 am

Shevarash wrote:If I could instantly make him happy and stay, I certainly would. Opening up to multiplay is not a solution that I believe in, and from the looks of this thread neither do a lot of players. Furthermore, when a player comes on here and posts a "I'm leaving unless you do xyz" post, that person is already as good as gone.


I can promise that I'd give Toril another solid chance if I was given the means to play the game on what I consider playable terms. I would prefer multiplay over codedly faster leveling simply because I think that it would be the solution that takes the least work from the staff, and I know how much they have on their plates these days. And while I'm normally as much against "I quit!" posts as the next guy, I felt that it was warranted to start what I consider a much needed discussion. You get very little input from actual newbies because you have practically none of them. I provided you with some.

Shevarash wrote:I understand, I'm tired of having to ask for patience as well


I will be patient. I am being patient, and I'll certainly come back to check out the game upon the launch of 2.0, just as many others will. I'd ask you to consider, however, if you'd prefer me to play and become an established player in the meantime, or if you'd rather just hope that I actually do return. I have no doubt whatsoever that the latter will result in a smaller playerbase, especially since many of your veteran players left because they were fed up with a game gone bad. That does not make for many happy return customers.

Shevarash wrote:I would be doing all of you a disservice if I sacrificed the ideals of this MUD to stop one person from leaving. If you read this thread it's pretty clear that most players do not agree with this idea. Are you suggesting that the responsible course of action is to change basic tenets of the MUD on a whim, to satisfy a few people that threaten to leave?


I think it's long, long overdue. You and everybody else can see the results of your stoically sticking to your ideals. I'm sorry if it sounds harsh, but I see it as nothing but the truth.

Shevarash wrote:A MUD full of multiplay bots is not something I would want to play as a new player.


But you have no new players.

sotana wrote:Let them discover the mud for themselves just like we all did!


Practically impossible to do alone as a solo character. You may have had the privilege of actual regular grouping, a bunch of friends and acquaintances, and possibly even an active guild. This game is extremely deadly, and while it's one of its selling points when the game is running optimally, it places a large portion of the game's content out of the average newbie's reach when they're by themselves. They'll have enough difficulties even getting to a level where exploration isn't complete suicide.


I have a final question. You recently allowed multiplay on the first weekend of the month or somesuch, as far as I understand (I haven't played much since that started). Compared to an average day, how many unique IP logins do you have on those multiplay days? How many of your previously established players play only during multiplay weekends? How much more activity do you see on your mud during the time when multiplay is allowed? And what, if any, are the obvious disadvantages of these multiplay weekends?
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:33 am

sotana wrote:Let them discover the mud for themselves just like we all did!


When we discovered the MUD it was much smaller than what it is today. Actually I'm not too sure when you started, but aren't you related to Xaril? I don't think Malvareth has anyone.
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Postby Corth » Thu Oct 11, 2007 1:13 pm

Its a little bit dangerous to essentially say the current version of the mud is unsupported while not giving much of a definite time frame for when the new version will be released. Your telling people to buzz off until you say come back. But will they come back?

Its worth putting in just a little bit of time to remedy the situation of exp for non zonable chars. A band-aid until 2.0 comes out is all they need. I agree with Shev about multi, but I disagree that nothing can be done until 2.0 is released.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 11, 2007 2:44 pm

First, I'd like to say that I think the idea of two-character multi is stupid and would just kill the MUD faster than Shevarash's hand-sitting.

As for the amount of unique ISPs logging in on those multi-days--well, it's not fair because those are what you call "events"--as in, something that doesn't happen all the time so people feel the urge to take advantage of them. If multi were allowed all day every day, well, it's not an event then, is it, and the number of unique ISPs logging in would rather quickly return to what it is on a normal day on the MUD now.

Also, anyone who insinuates anything about Sotana simply because she has a relative who also played simply knows absolutely nothing about Sotana.

Something that Tasan said (and none of it was any more inflammatory than what Shevarash responded with) is exactly what I've said before, and so have several others: saying that an issue will be fixed in 2.0 is not fair and it's really just an excuse for not getting on an issue now. Look at how long 2.0 has taken so far, Shev. Then consider how much more time you will have to spend to finish it. And be realistic when you think about how long it'll take, because I can guarantee you had no idea it would take over two years and look where we are now. Now ask yourself if you really--really--think it's fair to ask all of us to continue to wait for you to finish 2.0. Hell, you can't even update the BBS like you've been promising for months.

You are so damned lucky to have people like Marthammor and Eilistraee handling some issues, because otherwise absolutely nothing would have been done to change anything on this MUD in the last two years.

There are a whole slew of problems that need fixing on this MUD--and there is no reason why you can't have someone working on fixing them while you work on 2.0.

Ever since Corth made that rather dumb comment about not believing 2.0 was real, I've had people say they think he's right, and/or ask me if I think it's true. That's caustic and it's only occurred because someone is not doing anything to address these issues now. What is the cost in man-hours to get some of these issues taken care of, and would it really be such a time commitment that 2.0 would be put on hold an exceedingly long amount of time?

Don't get me wrong--this game is perfectly playable for me. But I've got enough gear to outfit all of my mages and bards and I've already got my friends/contacts that I've made. That all happened after the last pwipe when I started here and there were over a hundred other people running around exping, getting (what is now considered crappy) gear, and no one was level 50. But that's just not something Toril provides for people anymore, now is it?

We're donkeys following after the ever-elusive carrot (2.0). That's simply cruel, and actually a little inhumane. I stand by what I said in another post: mentioning 2.0 was coming was one of the biggest mistakes ever. I simply find it astounding that it's only the players here would have the insight to see it's true.[/i]

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