Toril 2.0: Interim Changes

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Shevarash
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Toril 2.0: Interim Changes

Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:16 pm

Toril 2.0 is a significant update that will address many of the long standing issues in the MUD. However, there may be some small adjustments that we can make to the existing TorilMUD to make the game more palatable while we wait for 2.0.

Please post your ideas for interim, or "band-aid" fixes to the current MUD here. This thread is an information gathering tool, so please stay on topic and constructive.
Last edited by Shevarash on Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:29 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby elarir » Thu Oct 11, 2007 7:32 pm

Increase hps regeneration dramatically for lvls one to thirty something.

edit: The vague possibility of this becomming a reality sometime soon makes me giddy with excitement. It's hard to get me giddy.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:05 pm

Lower the memtimes for lvl 1-45 to help leveling but maintain the current lvl 50 memtimes.

Lower group exp penalty to level faster.
Upgrade exp on beneficial spells on people in combat.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Ghimok » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:21 pm

Oops, didn't see this thread so posted in another. I offer my band-aid list in the appropriate forum.

My bandaid list:

Low level (1-30)
- Dramatically increase "THAC0" on all classes from level 1-20. This helps newbie casters actually hit mobs because their spells are basically worthless until approximately level 16.
- Lower exp tables by 25%
- Halve mem/pray times on 1st, 2nd, 3rd, and 4th circle spells.
- Make mobs less than level 20 not regenerate hit points at all, or slow their regen rate by half
- Make players less than level 30 regenerate hitpoints and movement points 1.5x as fast as normal and make it so if sleeping they regen at 3x the current rate.
- Pcorpses of players under level 30 take twice as long to rot

Mid level (31-40)
- This is more of a content related situation not easy to bandaid fix, but
- Lower exp tables by 15%

High Level (41-50)
- Cut resfx time in half
- Lower exp tables by 10%

There are thousands of other things that could be improved in the game obviously, but would require massive amounts of coding and content creational effort (ie put it off untl 2.0).

I'm not the world's greatest coder by any means, but from my understanding of CircleMUD code stock the above mentioned bandaids would take someone who understands MUD code and can write in C or C++ approximately 20 minutes to write and maybe 3 hours to test. So with Toril's spaghetti string code held together by duct tape and old chewing gum I'd estimagic the above changes to take approximately 40 hours of coding and testing time. Well worth the effort I'd say if it could help stave off player frustrations until the major overhaul (2.0) can be completed.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 8:27 pm

Live testing imo
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 11, 2007 9:25 pm

Change the current exp grouping penalty and/or change the exp tables in favor of those classes who are in dire need of it.

Set up some sort of welcome program--an idea was brought up a couple of months ago about having certain Helpers flagged to be able to enter Scardale, etc. to help newbies. I think that's an excellent idea, and I'm sure there are several Helpers who would be more than willing to take on this task. Just be sure you don't get any twinks who would use it as a tool to exp their friends' 100th alt or use the ability to escape harm's way when they're twinking a mob (a la word of recall). A simple pledge should suffice.

Do something to help out the evilraces. You have quite a few people who have tried to help the problem--from Targsk several years ago, to Tssassop a year or so ago, to the Dark Alliance now. But when no help is being provided by the Immortals (or the Immortals make Humans neutralrace which, rather than helping the evils, actually sped up their demise) it's a rather daunting task. Get rid of dayblindness the way it stands now, get rid of grouping restrictions... something. Despite what some goodrace naysayers may think, there is a lot of rich culture and mudding that is provided by the evilrace side of things, and the MUD wouldn't be the same without it. At present, a lot of it is going to waste. :(

Change Justice somehow. I've seen three new players in the past week who were completely dismayed by the idea. There's no reason to discourage them anymore than they already are! I imagine there really is only a need for a Justice system if the wrong race enters a hometown. Beyond that I don't see a need.

Okay, I guess these things aren't really band-aids 'cause I think they should be a standing policy even after 2.0, but in my very humble estimation they're very good ideas nonetheless. :wink:
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Postby elarir » Thu Oct 11, 2007 10:05 pm

Bandaids should take less than a short day or two to implement and test. 40 + hrs of work is not a bandaid it's surgery.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 11, 2007 11:47 pm

elarir wrote:Bandaids should take less than a short day or two to implement and test. 40 + hrs of work is not a bandaid it's surgery.


You must be new.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ghimok » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:24 am

elarir wrote:Bandaids should take less than a short day or two to implement and test. 40 + hrs of work is not a bandaid it's surgery.


I was mostly kidding, sort of.
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Postby Ghimok » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:24 am

elarir wrote:Bandaids should take less than a short day or two to implement and test. 40 + hrs of work is not a bandaid it's surgery.


I was mostly kidding, sort of.
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Postby Guardias » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:15 am

Remove grouping restrictions
Add mercenaries
lower exp tables for all non-rogues/rangers (damage classes don't need help methinks)
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Postby bawog » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:21 am

I'd seriously, constructivly, honestly, beggingly request a pwimpe to give everyone a fair playing field. To much equipment int he game as is, and its only getting worse.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Oct 12, 2007 4:17 am

My suggestions are all based around making newbies self-sufficient.

- A guaranteed economic niche for newbies. Essentially this has to be something that produces an end product useful to high levels without being something that high levels can farm faster. For example, ore for upgrade quests that high levels would actually trade for.
- Make Scardale a newbie SPOB-like zone to prevent pleveling via eq from making true newbies discouraged. Ideally, combine with #1. The result is that it takes everybody - old or new - a similar amount of time to obtain the items. This makes it worthwhile to trade, since in the same amount of time those with high level chars could do a zone or two.
- More "realistic" newbie area where things agro and track, complete with warning signs on the way in.
- Simplification of the newbie guide to encourage them to send tells to other people, since human interaction is what is needed, and people are impatient.
- RPQ-style awards for people who devote tons of time to helping newbies. By this I don't mean zoning with NHC on and firing off the occasional answer, I mean being 100% devoted to it, just as in an RPQ session. Maybe a restring after many, many verified instances (just as with RPQ) and the occasional independent audit/undercover agent.
- Explanation of AFK and other behavior, so newbies will not be offended when people don't respond.
- Explanation of the auction, and an auctioneer in one of the newbie load rooms.

Oh yes, and: 0% EXP loss for death for newbies. Along with a message explaining that if they were not a newbie they would have lost EXP.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:17 am

A global MUD channel to talk. Back when most of us started, there was no global channel. We didn't really need one since we all met up in WD (I forget where evils were. BS and eventually DK I would assume.). Now there's maybe 10 of us in VT and the rest doing random stuff on the MUD. Very little time to socialize or talk about in-game stuff. I do realize we have lfg but that channel is pretty useless other than to request someone to get out an alt w/out remember who has one. Of course ban certain conversations, but asking where zones are, how difficult said zone is, leveling suggestions, asking what people do on this MUD etc. are things newbies may want to ask and talk about to the general public.

or

Removing the level 20 limit on NHC. At level 20 you still have no idea where to go. With all the other competiting games out there, you think people are going to stick around looking for one of the few lvl 20-25 npcs within the next 100 rooms of them? They know nobody in game, have no clue where they are, and no gear.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby shalath » Fri Oct 12, 2007 6:13 am

Dalar wrote:Removing the level 20 limit on NHC. At level 20 you still have no idea where to go. With all the other competiting games out there, you think people are going to stick around looking for one of the few lvl 20-25 npcs within the next 100 rooms of them? They know nobody in game, have no clue where they are, and no gear.

Absolutely. There are very few newbies. Let everyone help them, and ban individuals if you see stupidity.

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Postby Drogga » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:36 pm

I also want to humbly request, instead of pwipe, could we have eq-wipe? I hate levelling a bunch of new chars again but dont really mind leading group to grab some new stuff. There is too many eq in the game and causing unbalances. Maybe by eq-wiping, things will be more fun again. since you never promise of no eq-wiping like you promise no pwipe, so it is still quiet a considerable request :P

thanks
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Postby Malvareth » Fri Oct 12, 2007 1:53 pm

Well, you already know that I view multiplay as the best temporary solution, but I respect the staff's decision not to allow it. Other than that, here's my view on it:

Increasing overall xp by 10% won't do much. The problem isn't that the xp is slightly insufficient, it's the fact that killing is difficult when you're alone and untwinked, and downtimes are too long. If you make a warrior and use only whatever equipment you find along the way, you're probably going to spend 80% of your time resting your health back up.

It's pretty hard to change the general difficulty of the game, and it wouldn't be a good solution because it would heavily skew the balance of the entire mud. Likewise, installing a bunch of decent low-level equipment would take a lot of work.

Lowering memtimes is a great idea. It's one of the biggest obstacles as a newbie spellcaster, but still I found that I spent longer time recovering my health than memming after I had killed something. I suggest a change to the bandage skill so that it becomes a viable yet balanced way of recovering after a fight. As I understand it, bandage currently only allows you to save a mortally wounded player. How about changing it so that bandage heals a level/skill-based amount of hp and can be used once per tick, or something like that? While it won't do much for the actual difficulty of killing mobs, it would help downtime a lot for the classes that can't heal themselves.
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Postby Vigis » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:34 pm

Make Bard song affect the entire room again instead of just the group?

I remember way back when HP exp used to be good, I would solo (as a warrior) there. I'd either use the quick heal room to sleep back hps, or (if I was lucky) a group with a bard would be killing in HP. I'd hang out in the room with the group and get my hps back.

If bard song went back to affecting the room, then low level folks would be able to leach up some of the benefits of the songs.
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:38 pm

Make spells not lose concentration. I should only abort a spell when a mob bashes me. For newbie casters this is hellish.

Remove the cap on xp per mob.

Give the xp grids TEMPORARILY a +% to xp. Might be a quick fix for those just seeking to xp an alt and would free up some of the more widely used xp centers.

Lower significantly the "points" needed to get restrings for RPing.

And, as usual, delete evils.
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Postby shalath » Fri Oct 12, 2007 5:14 pm

Small adjustment - change the rules to allow full restores with EQ! Was stupid to delete self, but it'd sure make me play again if this was changed :-)

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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 12, 2007 8:12 pm

This is called diverting your attention towards a 'constructive' purpose.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Tasan » Fri Oct 12, 2007 10:01 pm

Malvareth wrote:I suggest a change to the bandage skill so that it becomes a viable yet balanced way of recovering after a fight. As I understand it, bandage currently only allows you to save a mortally wounded player. How about changing it so that bandage heals a level/skill-based amount of hp and can be used once per tick, or something like that? While it won't do much for the actual difficulty of killing mobs, it would help downtime a lot for the classes that can't heal themselves.


Duris has this implemented. 3 different sizes of bandages + a medicated one(removes poison). Bandage skill takes size of bandage + skill into account for effectiveness and it takes time to bandage(and there is a cooldown). Needless to say it is one of the best and most used skills there. Bandages aren't free either so there's a plat sink for you. Newbies also start w/ 3 small bandages.

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Postby Kegor » Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:26 am

Open racial restrictions on grouping. I can't stress enough what this would do to help add depth and diversity to the who list at any given time. Not only that, it would make grouping a little different than what we're used to, and therefore a lot more interesting.

Make it easier for new players to level. I especially liked the points stated above about drastically reducing mem times for levels 1-45, making mobs a lot easier to hit, and lowering the exp tables a bit. Upgrade the damage a little on first and second circle spells. Extend the 'recall' command to work from anywhere in the entire mud for players under level 20. I also liked the idea of opening NHC up to the entire mud. I still learn things every great once and a while on NHC as a helper of more than 7 years. Allow skill practice in guilds to the maximum for the level for characters below 45th level.

Give better starting eq sets. The starting eq is fairly worthless for new players that don't have people to group with very often. Not everyone likes the idea of saving up their plats and running to the auction house right away. Use already existing eq in the game or modify the existing starter sets to have slightly better AC, and add a couple +10 hp, +1 hit, +1dam, and -2sv items to the appropriate classes.

Upgrade regeneration rates. Scaredale fountain has it's uses, but exploring scardale doesn't really help you later on down the road. HP regeneration is really only benifital to low to mid-level characters. Troll regen doesn't help much at all for high level trolls trying to solo. Running anywhere blows with no fly gear, even if it's only one rest period. Having to find something else to do (TV, internet, downloading porn) while waiting to keep playing the game is not something I would find conducive to the level of enjoyment a game should produce.

Allow more multi-play days. Once a month would be cool, on a set schedule. After I miss multi-play days, I always hear people tell me what they tried to do on multi-play day with some excitement or laughing involved in the story. Make multi-play days fall on weekdays sometimes. Prefereably a wensday night every other month (*nod me*) and a saturday or weekend as you like it, on the other. Do this for those who enjoy it a lot, and possibly rekindle some sort of interest in coming back to try something new for some others.


If all of these things were to be done, I think we might see a slightly bigger who list.

Another random thought I had that I'm not sure if the cost would outweigh the benifits on, but try out temporarily upping the group size limit to 20 people. This would obviously make zones easier, but it would also allow for more people to be involved in zones. It would also make the harder more time consuming zones take less time. I think allowing for more people would allow for more fun, but at the price of making things a little less challenging. It would do away with the nitpicking for a perfect group for certain zones tho, which would be good for more people to go zone. The amount of eq loaded in the zone still stays the same, but zones like magma and jot invasion might get done slightly more often. Just a thought.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sat Oct 13, 2007 11:44 am

Jaznolg wrote:Another random thought I had that I'm not sure if the cost would outweigh the benifits on, but try out temporarily upping the group size limit to 20 people. This would obviously make zones easier, but it would also allow for more people to be involved in zones. It would also make the harder more time consuming zones take less time. I think allowing for more people would allow for more fun, but at the price of making things a little less challenging. It would do away with the nitpicking for a perfect group for certain zones tho, which would be good for more people to go zone. The amount of eq loaded in the zone still stays the same, but zones like magma and jot invasion might get done slightly more often. Just a thought.


I don't really have any issues with any of what's in this thread, but this one point stood out a bit. I really don't think we need to up the limit to 20 people. As it stands, we don't even find 30 people to do tia anymore. We're lucky to hit 26, or so. I think 15 is a good number, most all zones are doable with less than that anyway, and that's pretty much the standard. I know you write for certain zones, but i'm unsure how you'd qualify the zone. The only one I can think of, is possibly CP. Which I believe was talked about in another thread elsewhere for that area to be upped. With the changes being done to Invasion, I don't even know if it would qualify now.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:10 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:I really don't think we need to up the limit to 20 people. As it stands, we don't even find 30 people to do tia anymore. We're lucky to hit 26, or so. I think 15 is a good number, most all zones are doable with less than that anyway, and that's pretty much the standard.


That's why I included this idea just as a thought open for discussion. The other ideas I stand behind 100%. The more I think about this idea though, the better it's starting to sound.

When I zone on wensday nights and saturdays occasionally, the group usually starts the zone with 12-15 people. But more people always log on and are bummed they can't join because the group is full. This would target those rare times at prime time when there is almost enough for 2 zone groups, but not quite. The idea also would open new doors on doing certain time consuming zones on weekdays whereas they would never be even considered.

I do fully agree that it would ruin most zones if it was used with the intent to do so, and I'm sure it would in some cases. It would definately be a trade off. But it also would definately increase the general fun level by not being so limited in zone or character selection when forming for zones. Lets not forget that leaders can still decide how many people they want to add to their group.

How about if 5 of the 20 had to be below level 46? Would that help make it easier to back?
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Postby Ashiwi » Sat Oct 13, 2007 12:27 pm

Interim Changes... Isn't that like painting a toy your child doesn't play with red to see if they'll play with it more? It's still going to be the same toy at heart... much loved although it may be, the newness of interim changes will wear off within a matter of weeks.


Don't misunderstand... this toy is much loved and has given me many, many hours of pleasure, and I'm sure it will be a very pretty red color.
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Postby Kegor » Sat Oct 13, 2007 1:20 pm

I think it will last a lot longer than a couple weeks. People like new colors a lot.

What you wrote there sounds a lot like you think there should be no effort to make this "toy" more exciting to play with again. We don't want all the children in the neighborhood to lose interest in it while we wait for Santa Claus.
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Postby Eilistraee » Sat Oct 13, 2007 2:20 pm

Shevarash and I have spoken, and thus far we certainly plan to implement several of the suggestions within. Please feel free to continue generating ideas as we are still watching the thread.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:02 am

Upgrade Trophy Downgrade Tables!!!!!!!!!




...

Put old jot invasion back in.

Remove grouping restrictions.

1/4 the gear loaded in Tiamat.

A pwipe would be more like a dagger to the heart for me than a band-aid.


& remove the bbs
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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Oct 14, 2007 6:23 am

I'd suggest allowing goods and evils to group either only in scardale or only below 20th. Trolls and Paladins grouped is so wrong.
caster exp is probably too hard, maybe reduce damage exp for rogues/rangers/warriors they have it way easy atm but casters have to struggle, make exp easier for them. less melee damage mostly will hurt the stacked not the newbies.
I like a lot of Moritheil's idea. ugh, I feel so dirty.
Great idea for newbie quests, maybe a vit potion quest that's time consuming so newbies would do it for higher ups. 24p each to buy them, good cash for lowbies.
I say get rid of lfgc, ooc and have one channel where you can talk about anything.
I'd like to see evils made more powerful so they can zone with fewer than goods and thus zone more, maybe group limit of 10 or 12 for them. Make trolls regen faster, ogres 2h wield 1h, maybe drow smart, etc.
Increasing group size could help for allowing greater inclusivity but rewards get reduced so I'm not sure how ofen that would happen. doing a zone with 4 good items and 20 people is frustrating.
Ran out of things to babble about.
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Postby Demuladon » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:43 am

"Quick fix"

Leave everything as is, however for mobs with levels 1-49 reduce hitpoints by multiplying by:

Code: Select all

((1/(51-mobLevel) + 10) percent
so the amount of hps a mob has is reduced based on level,
Level  % of current hitpoints
1       12
10      12.4
20      13.2
30      14.8
40      19.1
45      26.7
46      30
47      35
48      43.3
49      60
50      100

edit:that is, hps for mobs lvl 50-55 remain unchanged
Last edited by Demuladon on Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Oct 14, 2007 12:22 pm

Newbie Equipment:

It's so much easier for a leveling noob to get decently ac'd gear as a warrior, but not so much as a mage. Why not add some additional AC to the starting out gear you get. Doesn't have to be all encompassing and powerful, but something to help them with a boost since most newbies, until/if the pbase becomes large enough to actually support low levels again(or when 2.0 is released, i'm sure we'll have a lot of rerolls) to make it easier to level. would help casters, mage types specifically.


Edit: Also, make the gear substantial ac, but once you leave the newb area of scardale, mosswood, etc. have the gear crumble so it can't be used, and or have it revert to normal stats?
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:08 pm

Reboots at 65hrs.
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Postby muxxissinix » Sun Oct 14, 2007 4:38 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:Reboots at 65hrs.


The moment they put in new changes into code mud will begin to crash very often again.

How this new mesure will delay torilmud 2.0 arrival ?

I don't really care if a couple of new players leave, they will have to face a new mud when you change to torilmud 2.0 then there is no point in do small fixes at this point.

This thread is a good feedback but not for the actual mud, is more like "we should add this to 2.0" because players made a valid point here.

Hoping to play torilmud 2.0 (and not torilmud 1.5)

Thanks.
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Oct 14, 2007 5:08 pm

It's not that I think no effort should be put into making/keeping the toy fun to play with, I just think we're not considering the whole picture of mudder psychology in discussing improvements to playability.

I'm all for bandaids of reducing exp grind, particulary for mages, making it easier on newbies to exp, and a good deal of the other excellent suggestions that were made (sans multi-play, ick) ... however ...

To go along with that, the best way to approach improvements to ramp up for something like 2.0 would be to foster community effort in getting and keeping new players and putting a fire under the interest of older players. You're going to need two things to encourage both of those: challenge and reward. Older players have bemoaned the loss of challenge in the game time and again, and making the low level game easier isn't adding to the challenge of the high level game. The only aspect of the above changes that's going to matter to long-time players is the potential for new blood in the game, as the luster of being able to level one more character that you already have all the equipment for is going to wear off quickly.


Personally, I'd suggest a healthy shot of favoritism, in-fighting and god politics (credits to Corth), but in lieu of that I'd suggest finding a way to revive the competitive spirit of the gaming community in Toril, thinking of some creative way of clearing out the mounds and mounds of excessive gear every long-term player has accumulated, and instituting a method of rewarding those that willingly step forward to assist in these goals.

Heck, lock the game at noon some day and request volunteers to step forward and have their entire inventories of their main character and every one of their alts wiped clean. Take those players who will do so on a roleplay adventure to win one thing back from their inventory with a restring.

Give Tia a one-boot breath weapon that dissolves sv breath gear and let the fun commence. Only allow people to go who will commit to wearing their personal hoards including their daily wear. Then fill Tia's haul with unique items for that one day only.

Create a zone with a portal that can only be loaded by an immort. Put ONE really good unique item in it each time it loads. Give the zone the arena flag, and a ton of obstacles that bottleneck players in specific rooms. Reduce melee damage in arena zones, but fix Ranger trap. Seed obscure areas in the zone with nasty toys that can't leave the zone, like "Immolate" scrolls. Let people remember how much fun it can be to play dirty on occasion. Let the losers bitch, moan and complain all they want, then tell them "tough titty."

Set up single-boot quests that are unique each time and are devilishly hard, and let players compete against each other to finish them for restrung items (not a chance to restring one of their own items, but a pre-restrung item so even the winner might not be able to use the item that day). Keep a tally of who finishes the most and let them flaunt their status.

Create a good reason for racewars. Remember back when evils took pride in being bigger, badder, tougher, and stomping all over goodie asses gave you a sense of community spirit?

Create a zone with an entry portal that is rewritten on a regular basis so you can only get the key by giving up certain high level items, and each time the portal quest is rewritten those items change.

In other words, do feel free to paint the toy red, but while you're at it, change the dead batteries, too.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sun Oct 14, 2007 9:54 pm

i realize there's some of you with too much gear

but you dont speak for us all

losing gear would be pretty traumatic for me, i dont even have a full set for any class

that tiamat change would be more punishing to new players than to the existing elite, and would make them less interested in even trying it.

extreme challenge is a hardcore feature. current npd surveys put hardcore gamers at the bottom 8% of all online gamers.

the game has to be less punishing to bring in new players who will stay, or go somewhere besides cm.

i know many old timers disagree, that you enjoyed (i cant see how) mystra's reign of terror. but games c hange, the world changes. YOU have changed.


the best solution presented is two fold - remove racial grouping restrictions and remove dayblindness (still having dayblindness just means only trolls, ogres, orcs and yuan will benefit from the racial restriction being lifted, as the other races would NEED a psi along to deal with outdoor zones). this alone would prob revitalize the mud in the short term, and 2.0 will hopefully do it for the long

i've seen a lot of suggestions to make zoning easier. that isnt the point of this thread. making zoning easier doesnt help the new guy..like Bim last night..who is new to mudding and new to the game.
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Postby Corth » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:15 pm

I like Ashiwi's post. As I was reading it I was thinking how much fun it would have been playing the mud if it had been that way.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Malia » Sun Oct 14, 2007 10:53 pm

I get nervous with some of the suggestions i see, yes i see lvling becoming easier exp caps gone, racial restritions gone. I see a good size boost in people playing.... for a short time then bam its gonna be even worse then it is now.

With most of the changes i see being suggested it would be like playing doom and being given all the fun toys to start the game with and then beating it and it being even more boring then ever before. People like the challenge, its the challenge that keeps people here. If everything is so easy I think in the end you will lose even more people.

Think of your favorite game and once you played with cheat codes the easier it got you had a great time but then all the fun was gone. Once you play like that you cant ever seem to go back.

On that note.... I think making the evils far supperior to goodies should be done. They were created for the advanced player. There is still a warning posted when you roll one. I think there shouldnt be any closeness about this I think EVILS should DOMINATE goodies but i think they should be alot more challenging to lvl and play. Dayblind is a time sink and is a complete waste, but it taught everyone to learn the mud in the dark.

Giving out better eq to start the game with isnt very good idea i dont think because the whole purpose of playing and challege is getting new gear that beats what your wearing now, let em start out with a weapon and robes, so that everything they come across is better then what they got. Anyone try to eq in scardale, that eq is rocking compared to outside eq of the same difficulty, its very easy to attain a good ac with all the little quests and items in scardale. Hell its hard enough finding a ac 10 neck item yet there is a good one in scardale =)

Remember what made this game fun for you to start with, not whats gonna make it fun for you now. Alot of the changes i see being suggested are more for the experienced player "painting the toy a new color" yet what we want to do is bring in new blood and its a completely new toy to them. Lets make it fun for them.

As for racial grouping, i dont think this is the way to revive evils, i think is just a way to include the dead evils. Again UPGRADE evils, allow ogres to 1hand 2handed weapons, allow trolls to regen faster, allow psi to be even more powerful, but along with that add more difficulty to quests and lvling so its not just another alt. It was designed to be a challenge.

biggest problem i see that really needs to be adressed is the people that start dont have anyone to group with compared to when we started. I think thats where the focus should be, not on the high end game =(

Thanks for listening
Dugmaren mutters in a surly voice 'Got any new strategy or going to continue with the "throw bodies at them til they get bored"? '

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Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Sun Oct 14, 2007 11:54 pm

Ah, but Teyaha, notice I never said "make it harder on everybody," or "do this to Tia every boot in the game." Some of the options I gave were one-time-only occurrences, and only for players who chose to participate. Others were for volunteers only. They were just suggestions to bolster not only the mechanics of the game, but the spirit, as well, and wouldn't be forced on you.

As for the idea of making evils superior... I could actually support that. Tweak evils races a bit to increase some aspects, decrease others, and give them reason to remember how to talk smack. That still begs the problem of having enough players available to populate both the evil and good side, but it's worth the experiment.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Ashiwi
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Oct 15, 2007 12:04 am

Oh, and Ross... the thing that made it fun for me when I first came to Sojourn was the rich, submersive roleplay experience. I hunted for the best Forgotten Realms/Fantasy/D&D based roleplay game I could find, and I found you guys.

Unfortunately, my best offer of advice for making it more fun for newbies is "make it more of an adventure than yet another night of tapping keys," but nobody seems to like that approach.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
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Postby Kegor » Mon Oct 15, 2007 7:31 am

Evil races are superiour for the most part already. Widening that a little bit still wouldn't do much other than solo and small group twink things (exactly what it is for now). Widening it a lot more might interest some people, especially new characters into that, while splitting the pbase even more. I think it would be cool, but end up being bad for zoning and the pbase as a whole in the end.

This is not a pkill mud. At the end of the day, after all is said and done, are racial restrictions really necessary? Is RP for 20 people more important than doing what you want with your own character in a FR setting?
Demuladon
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Postby Demuladon » Mon Oct 15, 2007 11:34 am

To clarify my post above, Open up the midbie content to midbies.

The problem is that long term players get used to playing the game in 'god mode' ie. high level rogue with khanjari.

After the Scarsdale fun stops at lvl 20, boredom sets in when midbies realize that there's not alot of content available to these small numbers of midbies. When I say not available, I mean, midbies can't go there. Mori touches on this above, when he suggests adding new useful things for lowbies-midbies to do.

However, there's already a huge amount of midbie content in the game, most of it are now DeathTraps to midbies (mobs too many hps, hit too hard), made that way to stop high lvl twinkage, or they were designed for largish groups of midbies, which just doesn't happen now.

I have seen many pcorpses in Trollbark (levels 30-40), names that I never see again. Look at Shadow Swamp, supposedly lvl 20-50 but it's a joke, lvl 20 would last 12ns there. Look at The Ruins of Yath Oloth ---------- levels 30-50, it's crazy since a level 30 is dead at the first room past the gold door, probably earlier to a stab. Look at The Deep Jungle (Tarrasque) ------ levels 5-20, hehe. Look at A'Quarthus Velg'Larn levels ------ 30-40, take a solo level 40 warrior solo into the dwarf area and see how many kills it gets before splatting. Hehe, even take a level 10 char to Ant Farm and see how long you last when a large ant group walks in. I could keep going, hopefully you see what I mean.
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Postby Botef » Mon Oct 15, 2007 2:36 pm

One of the things I've never liked about Scarsdale is the sudden impact it has on new players when they reach 20. I've heard this complaint a number of times in a variety of ways.

A new player rolls up and gets hooked on the action thats in Scarsdale and running around xping with other new players. Then they hit 20 and are suddenly placed half-way across the mud with absolutely no idea how to get back to where their buddies are. While Scarldale is a huge boost to new players, the sudden impact of being so far away from everyone else if they choose one of those races can be a big discouragement. Especially so if they die without a clue as to where they are and with this pre-defined illusion of how safe things were in Scardale. Not only are the suddenly separated from their new found comrades in Scardale, but their lost in unfamiliar territory. I've seen quite a few new players get extremely discourage by this, especially if they die trying to find their way.

Not sure what can even be done to remedy this, but its food for thought. Maybe make Scarsdale an actual place and let level 20's have the option of exploring outward from Scardale rather then being instantly teleported to their guild. Make the gate block sub-20 players or something. It still doesn't help when they die for the first time and are stuck at their guild, but at least its not so sudden and a group of new players isn't broken into pieces the moment they hit 20.
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// Post Count +1
Birile
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Postby Birile » Mon Oct 15, 2007 4:30 pm

Very good point, Botef...

Just some brainstorming on that concern:

What about allowing a person who dies sub-25 loading in their guild with all of their gear? This way, yes, they may lose their pcorpse if they can't find their way to it (and they've lost the exp, too, so there's still a penalty for dying) but they aren't walking around blind and naked trying to get to their pcorpse which may have been the result of an aggro mob or some such. The player can just suit up and decide whether to find the pcorpse for a res or just leave it to crumble in the dust. Either way, the most important thing--their gear--isn't lost. I know I literally quit the game for all of a week when Birile died while wandering solo in the kobold caves--I had no idea where I was or how to get back there and was frustrated that I had lost all of my gear (which wasn't all that great, but was wonderful to me at the time).

Or what about including some sort of portal/door apparatus in Scardale which allows people to enter different hometowns? This way, if a player hits lvl 20 and is cut off from his friends who are lvl 19 or lower, they have the option of entering the portal/door to the lvl 20 player's hometown so they can still play together and the new friends aren't separated? You can put in some sort of a guard mechanism that rebuffs a player if they would be killed on sight in the hometown (if they're a goodrace entering an evilrace hometown, for example).

Just some thoughts!
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 15, 2007 5:13 pm

Jaznolg wrote:Evil races are superiour for the most part already. Widening that a little bit still wouldn't do much other than solo and small group twink things (exactly what it is for now). Widening it a lot more might interest some people, especially new characters into that, while splitting the pbase even more. I think it would be cool, but end up being bad for zoning and the pbase as a whole in the end.

This is not a pkill mud. At the end of the day, after all is said and done, are racial restrictions really necessary? Is RP for 20 people more important than doing what you want with your own character in a FR setting?


not superior enough to have dayblind!
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:38 pm

Dalar wrote:
Jaznolg wrote:Evil races are superiour for the most part already. Widening that a little bit still wouldn't do much other than solo and small group twink things (exactly what it is for now). Widening it a lot more might interest some people, especially new characters into that, while splitting the pbase even more. I think it would be cool, but end up being bad for zoning and the pbase as a whole in the end.

This is not a pkill mud. At the end of the day, after all is said and done, are racial restrictions really necessary? Is RP for 20 people more important than doing what you want with your own character in a FR setting?


not superior enough to have dayblind!



no joke

lets examine what's superior about evils

trolls - regen? shrug. weak to fire though. tons of bloody fire dmg from zones oneshots 'em. for less annoyances, really gotta rely on ogre tanks

ogres - huge! insane strength and con. low natural ac - they WILL be hit

drow - can anyone actually confirm they have the best in any stat? and even then, is it enough to actually matter at 45+?

deurgar - innate invis is pretty nice. but again, what do they have over dwarves? is it enough to deal with the underdark everytime you die? is it enough to deal with dayblindness

snakes - absolutely no advantages in any way. not one




but...disadvantages galore! dayblind means if you zone in an outdoor area you NEED a psi - fogging every room is not practical. some of the worst solo cr's in the game - but again, no advantages to offset that run from hyssk naked


i have a feeling that drow and grey elves have the same int notches when it comes ot mem times. gnomes are on the same level as yuan-ti


so even if race restrictions are lifted - nobody is going to roll evil outside of ogres for tanks. they can get the same stat advantages on the other side without having to deal with dayblindness, missing eq slots or even shitty solo cr runs.

i dont buy the whole 'for advanced players' thing anymore. if this was true, those of you with 10+ level 50's and 8 sets of high end gear would be playing them more often. but you dont.

make evils easier? make evils harder? does it even matter anymore?
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Re: Toril 2.0: Interim Changes

Postby Eilistraee » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:48 pm

Shevarash wrote:Please post your ideas for interim, or "band-aid" fixes to the current MUD here. This thread is an information gathering tool, so please stay on topic and constructive.


I respect the desire to debate the merits of the various races, but please use a different medium than this thread. Thank you.
Eilistraee
Teyaha
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Re: Toril 2.0: Interim Changes

Postby Teyaha » Mon Oct 15, 2007 6:55 pm

Eilistraee wrote:
Shevarash wrote:Please post your ideas for interim, or "band-aid" fixes to the current MUD here. This thread is an information gathering tool, so please stay on topic and constructive.


I respect the desire to debate the merits of the various races, but please use a different medium than this thread. Thank you.




pretty sure it was on topic, as i was talking about removing racewars grouping restrictions (a band-aid) and why in actuality it will matter little if we still have dayblind (also suggested to be removed ealier) and how evils dont actually have any advantages over their goodie counterpoarts except some fun-more-than-function innates

i'm all for removing racewars and dayblind, because i'dlike to play with people as my enchanter. i dont like the idea of being forced to roll a goodie at this time to actually play with another human being (that isnt afk 24/7 in VT). but even in the short term, i doubt it will matter or even make a difference or even bring new players to play evils

but wait! that's not what evils are for! they are for advanced players right?

well, how come the advanced players arent all playing evils?

i think if anyone can really answer that question, you'll have the best band-aid for this mud ever.
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Postby Verarb » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:29 pm

I Love you.

Can i have an arti?
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Postby Birile » Mon Oct 15, 2007 8:41 pm

Verarb wrote:I Love you.

Can i have an arti?


Take my Artikerus. Please.

:lol:

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