Dev News: Project Bandaid (Phase 1)

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Dev News: Project Bandaid (Phase 1)

Postby Shevarash » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:09 am

Project Bandaid is the affectionate name we've given to interim changes made to Toril 1.0 while Toril 2.0 is still in development. In many cases these changes simulate some aspects of 2.0, or just make the game more playable while we wait for 2.0's introduction. We're basing these changes off of your feedback, so please keep the ideas coming.

The first pass of changes - Phase 1 - targeted some common and much maligned time sinks, as well as making life easier for low level players. The contents of Phase 1, which was deployed to the MUD on Oct. 15th follow:

Code: Select all

10/15/07               [Shar] Project Bandaid: Phase 1
  - The GCC channel is now open for business for general Gameplay related discussion!
  - Please do not discuss quests or post equipment stats to the GCC channel, all other topics are
    allowed.
10/15/07               [Shevarash] Project Bandaid: Phase 1
  - Increased experience gain across the board.  This change starts off as a 30% boost to experience
    at level 1, and scales down slowly to a 10% boost at the higher levels. 
  - Added an extra 5% experience gain for all pure caster classes (Inv/Enc/Ill/Nec/Ele/Cle/Dru/Sha/Lic).
  - Removed spell stuttering: you will no longer randomly abort spells at any level.
  - Decreased low/mid level memtimes significantly.  This also works on a diminishing gains principle,
    so the effect is most noticeable at lower levels and gradually scales back.
  - Upgraded low level (1st - 5th level) spell damage.
  - Rejuvenate Major is much more effective.
  - Rejuvenate Minor now functions exactly like the old Rejuv Major. (Yes, it's a permenant effect.)
  - Rejuvenate Minor/Major cast times dropped.
  - Preserve now preserves PC corpses for 5x the level of the caster, up from 3x.
  - Preserve cast time lowered.
  - Cure critic cast time dropped.
  - Dropped cast time on all Vigorize spells.
  - The who command now shows the total number of players online, including Anon players.  Anon players
    do not show up in the list, they are just included in the count at the bottom.  This gives a more
    accurate representation of how many players are on.
  - Implemented new 'silence' staff command.  This command can now restrict individual channel usage,
    rather than the blanket effect of old.
10/15/07               [Eilistraee] Project Bandaid: Phase 1
  - Cut resurrection fatigue time in half.
  - Justice has been turned off.  Town guards will still repel invaders, but the rest is disabled.
  - PC hitpoint regeneration boosted, with an emphasis on the lower levels.
  - PC movement point regeneration boosted, with an emphasis on the lower levels.
 - PC mana regeneration boosted, with an emphasis on the lower levels.
  - Low level mobs (level 20 or lower) no longer regnerate hit points.
  - Regeneration rate while sleeping boosted by an extra 33%.
  - Removed NHC level limit.



I hope you all enjoy the changes, and please keep the ideas coming.
Last edited by Shevarash on Tue Oct 16, 2007 4:05 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:21 am

I support this thread.
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Postby Ifin » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:29 am

I would like to say wow, props for implementing it so fast (measured by when staff response actually addressed the problem). Big reward vs. effort ratio, imho, so thanks staff.

All the suggestions listed seems to take the most reasonable of advice so far instead of any and all, so another big props. Some good suggestions are missing from the list, but they seem to be the more complicated ones.

Only comment I'd like to make is while I strongly advocate the decrease of xp tables, I'd also like to see trophy up'ed since lowering xp tables across the board in this fashion is broad rather than targetting specific zones to tailor the "newbie xp" game, which if trophy actually had an impact might correct.

Also, I don't think xp from 46-49 should be lowered; in fact, I think that perhaps lvl 49 xp table should be increased by, say, 15%, than what it once was. There isn't much difference in 49-50 big group wise, but I really think lvl 50 should be hard to attain, even in light of some spells, say power word blind, where that 1 extra level can matter a great deal, and this would offset some of the easier levelling which is to make it to lvl 46+. But once someone attains level 50, I think it should be easier to keep, so I would advocate decreasing lvl 50 xp tables by, say, 10% (I didn't know that adjusting xp tables individually could be so quick!)
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:24 am

crap what am i going to complain about now
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Gormal » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:47 am

You'll find something, I have faith in you.
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Postby Dlur » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:20 am

Thanks for getting on top of this so quickly. Very nice. The cards are laid out, now let's see how the hand plays.
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Postby telor » Tue Oct 16, 2007 11:25 am

just out of curiousity, but did squids get left out of the loop? noticed that all casters got bumped here:

- Added an extra 5% experience gain for all pure caster classes (Invo/Ench/Ill/Nec/Ele/Cle/Dru/Sha).

but no squid? what are they considered then??
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Oct 16, 2007 12:46 pm

Illithid will be included in the exp bonus, this was a small oversight.

Slight modification - it was the cast time of cure critic that was improved, not serious.
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Postby elarir » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:01 pm

Wow awesome!! You guys are the best!!
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Postby Malvareth » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:30 pm

I'm very happy (and a little bit proud) to see these improvements. It's a good step toward steering the game in the right direction, and it's always nice to see a game's staff listening to its players.

Reduced memtimes and increased regeneration is a great boost. I think that'll help much more than the minor increases in xp gain, because most of the time it's not the xp per mob that's lacking, it's the time it takes to kill and recover from them. To me, xp was perfectly fine once I got in a decent group, while soloing with any kind of efficiency was impossible.

I'm hoping to see some of the equipment issues corrected as well. There's a crippling lack of worthwhile eq in the lower- and mid-levels, and while it may have been acceptable back when grouping was a regular thing, soloing in "whatever you've found" is just not a viable solution.
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Postby Ragorn » Tue Oct 16, 2007 1:55 pm

You implemented, in one fell swoop, several things that I had bitched about literally for years. Couldn't be happier. Reduced mem times, no mob hp regeneration, increased experience, more spell damage at low levels, no stuttering, removal of justice, more player hp regen.

I mean seriously.

Years in the making.
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Postby telor » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:03 pm

cool, thanks for the response Eili =)
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Postby Botef » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:21 pm

Wow quadruple goro thumbs up. I can't even believe my eyes! Way to put your money where you mouth is and stick it to all the complainers! I mean, wow.
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Postby Vigis » Tue Oct 16, 2007 2:57 pm

I just thought about something, if low level mobs no longer generate hitpoints, do the rules to kill-stealing need to be updated?

In the past, if a mob was at excellent, you knew it was fair game. Now though, a mob could be at PH and you have no idea whether somebody is fighting it or if it has been like that for days.

Probably not something to worry about though unless we get a whole slug of newbies as more experienced players tend to work those types of situations out pretty well.
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Postby Shar » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:26 pm

Vigis wrote:I just thought about something, if low level mobs no longer generate hitpoints, do the rules to kill-stealing need to be updated?

In the past, if a mob was at excellent, you knew it was fair game. Now though, a mob could be at PH and you have no idea whether somebody is fighting it or if it has been like that for days.

Probably not something to worry about though unless we get a whole slug of newbies as more experienced players tend to work those types of situations out pretty well.


Huh, to be honest I never thought of it. Thanks for bringing it up :) I'll see what we can do to modify it as needed.
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Oct 16, 2007 3:38 pm

Also escaping the news

- PC mana regeneration boosted, with an emphasis on the lower levels.
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Postby torkur » Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:12 pm

Wow. Majorly helps newbies and keeps the end game mostly the same, excellent job. :)
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Postby Malvareth » Tue Oct 16, 2007 6:24 pm

Eilistraee wrote:- PC mana regeneration boosted, with an emphasis on the lower levels.


These "emphasis on lower levels" changes, does that mean that it decreases in effectiveness at higher levels, or just that it was done to make lower levels more manageable?
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Postby Eilistraee » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:05 pm

The boost is highest at low levels, tapering off to the standard regeneration rates as you advance. Essentially both of your statements are correct; at high levels the recovery rates are unchanged except for the bonus while sleeping.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:16 pm

What about lowering the penalty to experience in group?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Corth » Tue Oct 16, 2007 7:35 pm

Good job. Nice to see some of the many recent complaints addressed. Agree with Ragorn that this was stuff that has been on the agenda for years and years, but nonetheless, a good move.
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Postby Latreg » Tue Oct 16, 2007 8:40 pm

Dalar wrote:What about lowering the penalty to experience in group?


maybe the increase in the exp will make group exp tollerable, the current system still favors solo but it's a start. Some very positive changes imo, I predict people taking greater riskes and far more deaths now since all those things about getting killed have been reduced in their annoyance factor.
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Postby Shevarash » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:19 pm

Dalar wrote:What about lowering the penalty to experience in group?


That's kind of a convoluted fix. 2.0 eliminates the group exp "penalty" by completely rewriting the experience system and standardizing all mob experience. There may be a way we can put some sort of precursor to this into Toril 1.0 in the next Bandaid phase, but we'll see.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:58 pm

Can we use trade messages in gcc chat? Something like gcc WTB: seelie cleric band.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:08 am

Very nice.
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Postby Shar » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:30 am

Dalar wrote:Can we use trade messages in gcc chat? Something like gcc WTB: seelie cleric band.


Yes.
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Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed Oct 17, 2007 12:48 am

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Postby Tasan » Wed Oct 17, 2007 1:39 am

Corth wrote:Good job. Nice to see some of the many recent complaints addressed. Agree with Ragorn that this was stuff that has been on the agenda for years and years, but nonetheless, a good move.


QFT.

*applause*

And thank you.
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Postby shalath » Wed Oct 17, 2007 7:23 am

Wow. I finally turn into a miserable old git who does nothing but whine and complain on the boards, and then you remove everything I have to whine and complain about :-(

Jolly good show :-)

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Postby selerial » Wed Oct 17, 2007 6:11 pm

Wow. No stutter. Omg.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Oct 18, 2007 2:33 am

We could ask for no finer proof that our concerns are heard.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 18, 2007 1:43 pm

Regarding spell stutter--can this also be applied to casting pets, or would that change also affect mobs and keep them from stuttering as well?
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:08 am

Oh yes, I'm curious about this:
- Added an extra 5% experience gain for all pure caster classes (Inv/Enc/Ill/Nec/Ele/Cle/Dru/Sha/Lich).

Is this meant to include Psis, or no? While psis do not actually have trouble gaining XP, I understand that they die very often due to poor hps, so players without decent gear may have trouble keeping XP.
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Postby Lilira » Sat Oct 20, 2007 4:42 pm

Eilistraee wrote:Illithid will be included in the exp bonus, this was a small oversight.


Psi's were meant to be included.
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Postby hagah » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:08 am

changes are excellent. soloing to lvl 20 is way more acceptable

past lvl 20 you gotta group aand well, sorry, group exp sux :[ it's not worth the trouble of grouping to exp.

200% happy with updates.
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Oct 22, 2007 6:21 am

hagah wrote:
past lvl 20 you gotta group aand well, sorry, group exp sux :[ it's not worth the trouble of grouping to exp.

.


that may be true for the melee classes, but not the pure casters. they need groups or xp is pretty painful
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Postby hagah » Mon Oct 22, 2007 11:51 am

Nods I agree. I was more pointing towards the issue that grouping should not be penalized by splitting exp. Anyway I know this is a 2.0 resolved issue, hoping it could be implimented in bandaid phase 2 that all members of the group receive full exp for each kill.
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Postby Malvareth » Mon Oct 22, 2007 12:06 pm

I've always been satisfied with grouping. Soloing is only an efficient option if you're twinked up the wazoo with awesome equipment, or if you're one of the few classes that are designed to be able to solo well. It has always been my experience that past level 20ish a functional group yields much better xp than soloing, not to mention the fact that it's more interesting and healthy for the game.

In a group of 3 players, my ranger gains 1-3% xp per kill on appropriate targets. Solo, he can just barely take down an easy con that earns me about 0.5-1% xp and takes much longer to kill, requires lengthy and boring downtime afterwards, and further contributes to some of the mud's problems.

hoping it could be implimented in bandaid phase 2 that all members of the group receive full exp for each kill.


I don't think that would work unless some fundamental changes are made to the entire xp system. If you take a tank, a hitter and a healer into CM and grind on duergars, they'll all get quite good xp. If you changed it so that the xp isn't split, and they each receive whatever they would if they had soloed the mob, they would each get 5-10% per kill or something depending on their level. I know I got over 3% per kill in a group in my late 30ies, and it certainly doesn't need to be any faster. The same probably applies to just about any other popular xp area in the game.

Personally, I believe that grouping is one aspect of the game that works just fine. Those of you who complain that you get better xp while soloing than grouping, take a look at your character and tell me if you're either playing a class known for its ability to do so, or wearing equipment far beyond what would be intended for your level.
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Postby hagah » Mon Oct 22, 2007 1:08 pm

Anyway, it's going to be implimented in 2.0 and I'm all for it.

Grouping can be a real hassle, people go afk, only have a short time to play, sometimes require lots of social interaction during a 4+ hour grind, don't know what they're doing, etc.. I don't mind these things terribly, but in a system where you need to optimize your exp game in order to get everyone 10-100% exp during a 2-4 hour period it makes sense to offer a bonus to exp for everyone for grouping.

Anyhow I'm content waiting on 2.0 for this as it looks like it would be more than a bandaid most likely.

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19586

1) Experience Split - Goodbye Grouping Penalty

Rather than split the total amount of experience gained from each kill, the entire group involved in the kill now receives a full share. That is, whether the group consists of 1, 5, or 15 members, all members receive the exact same amount of experience. This change does not negatively affect solo experience, but it does provide a bonus when adding more people to the party, as the party can now kill faster and safer without sacrificing any individual experience gain. It should be noted that there are measures in place to prevent power-leveling which I won't go into here.
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Postby Teyaha » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:30 pm

Malvareth wrote:
I don't think that would work unless some fundamental changes are made to the entire xp system. If you take a tank, a hitter and a healer into CM and grind on duergars, they'll all get quite good xp.


except the healer (enchanter or other non-invoker) actually gets jack xp compared to the warrior and hitter - even with the new changes

caster classes prob need anotehr 10-15% boost to make up for what even very poorly geared melee'ers can xp in the same amount of time in the same group on the same mobs - especially when you consider the pure caster is actually memming out every other mob on average and has far fewer opportunities to get dmg xp
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Postby Dalar » Mon Oct 22, 2007 3:57 pm

hagah wrote:Anyway, it's going to be implimented in 2.0 and I'm all for it.

Grouping can be a real hassle, people go afk, only have a short time to play, sometimes require lots of social interaction during a 4+ hour grind, don't know what they're doing, etc.. I don't mind these things terribly, but in a system where you need to optimize your exp game in order to get everyone 10-100% exp during a 2-4 hour period it makes sense to offer a bonus to exp for everyone for grouping.

Anyhow I'm content waiting on 2.0 for this as it looks like it would be more than a bandaid most likely.

http://www.torilmud.org/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=19586

1) Experience Split - Goodbye Grouping Penalty

Rather than split the total amount of experience gained from each kill, the entire group involved in the kill now receives a full share. That is, whether the group consists of 1, 5, or 15 members, all members receive the exact same amount of experience. This change does not negatively affect solo experience, but it does provide a bonus when adding more people to the party, as the party can now kill faster and safer without sacrificing any individual experience gain. It should be noted that there are measures in place to prevent power-leveling which I won't go into here.
\

they're changing the way exp is calculated, so no it can't be completely removed. wow see guys i didn't have to cry like a little bitch to explain to someone about a toril 2.0 change.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Birile » Mon Oct 22, 2007 4:46 pm

Dalar wrote:wow see guys i didn't have to cry like a little bitch to explain to someone about a toril 2.0 change.


Stop the profanity, it's not necessary.
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Postby Dalar » Sun Oct 28, 2007 10:53 am

can you guys lighten up on the stat roller for the remainder of toril 1.0? I have yet to roll an alt because of how long it takes to roll a new char with decent stats
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Sundara » Mon Oct 29, 2007 7:38 pm

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Postby Birile » Tue Oct 30, 2007 2:40 pm

Dalar wrote:can you guys lighten up on the stat roller for the remainder of toril 1.0? I have yet to roll an alt because of how long it takes to roll a new char with decent stats


Stat roller was already changed a couple years back and most everyone agrees that the possible stats now are a little crazy compared to what we had to endure prior to the change!
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Postby Botef » Tue Oct 30, 2007 3:23 pm

Birile wrote:
Dalar wrote:can you guys lighten up on the stat roller for the remainder of toril 1.0? I have yet to roll an alt because of how long it takes to roll a new char with decent stats


Stat roller was already changed a couple years back and most everyone agrees that the possible stats now are a little crazy compared to what we had to endure prior to the change!


I thought it was toned down again since then.
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Postby Kegor » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:42 am

Would be cool to be able to see adjusted AC below -100. Is a bother to calculate it.
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Postby Latreg » Wed Oct 31, 2007 1:05 pm

why can't we get acc until level 20? or see stats as numbers for that matter.
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Dalar
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Postby Dalar » Wed Oct 31, 2007 8:28 pm

Botef wrote:
Birile wrote:
Dalar wrote:can you guys lighten up on the stat roller for the remainder of toril 1.0? I have yet to roll an alt because of how long it takes to roll a new char with decent stats


Stat roller was already changed a couple years back and most everyone agrees that the possible stats now are a little crazy compared to what we had to endure prior to the change!


I thought it was toned down again since then.


No clue. My reasoning is, I have been in the roller for a long time just to get stats that will have 0 impact in Toril 2.0. I'm not sure how the roller is coded. If it's a matter of increasing the average which determines how much stats you get, then go for it. Changing the minimum stats for certain classes would be nice too. If it's too much time, I'm personally not worried because I roll overnight or during work. Just somethign to think about for new players.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Wed Oct 31, 2007 10:37 pm

the roller works rather well right now

in the last 5 weeks i've rolled many characters with very good or exceptional stats

one example is the troll warrior i rolled with all top row heroics - and as it turned out at the last notch unde 100 for str, agi, dex and con

it only took about 10 minutes to do

i was able to roll a human bard with mighty str/mighty agi/heroic dex/mighty con/mighty cha. that also took about 10 minutes

i dont know when it was implemented, but you can swap stats when rolling. this really cuts down on the time

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