Band-Aid Phase 2 suggestion - Pure Casters

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Teyaha
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Band-Aid Phase 2 suggestion - Pure Casters

Postby Teyaha » Wed Oct 24, 2007 11:50 pm

phase 1 was a great boon for all players. the changes that were introduced will go a long way to keeping people interested, and making the game less hostile to new players in a genre oversaturated with easy to play games


but pure casters still need help in the 35-45 range when it comes to xp

today in xp groups, pure casters cast at a minimum to reduce mem times out of combat.

this serves two real problems. firstly, the lack of dmg experience. and secondly, the lack of experience outside of the kill itself - which is easily missed if your only condition caller is a bash-lagged tank.


i would recommend an additional 10 or 15 percent increase in pure caster xp for levels 35-45. in a group of 4 in either cm, ds, ship or...randars? i think it's called...a pure caster is geting on average 1% per kill or 1% every other tkill at level 39. that's a lot of kills required to level and many hours before you can survive the zones people are doing today. and lets face it - the real game for TorilMUD is zoning.

from 10am today until 3pm today i did xp in a group with a 50 warrior, a 45 rogue, a 43 ranger and a 34 illusionist. we were chain killing those orcs at an extremely fast rate - but due to switching myself and the illusionist were asked to stay invis and just cast stones/embodies/hastes/displacements.

at 38-39 i got 1% per kill, with occaisonal 2 kills for the 1%. in that 5 hour period i got 97% total xp gain. you dont even want to know what the rogue and ranger got - and they were higher level.

the only band-aid to this that would work short term is further reducing pure caster xp tables between levels 35 and 45. ideally, a system that encourages casters to actually cast dmg spells even in a group that has a rogue would be the best solution - but i have no ideas on that myself.

it's kind of funny though. at the beginning of sojourn 3, there were posts asking when melee dmg was going to be brought UP to the level of caster dmg. now, melee dmg so far outstrips caster dmg outside of invokers it's no real competition. even a well geared warrior will blow away most casters because - unlike the casters - the better their gear, the more dmg they do. casters have no way of increasing their dmg without some sort of debuff from necros/liches/priests/shaman. gear just gives them hp.
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Postby Botef » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:07 am

LOL! I wouldn't touch Randars xp at all, its awesome enough as is considering casters don't generally even do damage there. Its probably the most efficient xp zone there is for 35-40 for enchanters.

Caster xp for Enchanters and Illusionists does kinda bite in that range but I think thats ok. On the matter of illusionists, xping from 41-50 is insanely easy compared to other classes, 46-50 in particular is a breeze which is unique for almost all classes. Enchanters are definitely a bit rough but I think its ok. Ele's, Invokers and Necros all have it pretty easy if you know where to xp and take advantage of their other benefits. Invokers can be useful zoning pretty early on, Necros can solo xp early on and Ele's can twink and do fun stuff early on.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Oct 25, 2007 2:26 am

Botef wrote:LOL! I wouldn't touch Randars xp at all, its awesome enough as is considering casters don't generally even do damage there. Its probably the most efficient xp zone there is for 35-40 for enchanters.

Caster xp for Enchanters and Illusionists does kinda bite in that range but I think thats ok. On the matter of illusionists, xping from 41-50 is insanely easy compared to other classes, 46-50 in particular is a breeze which is unique for almost all classes. Enchanters are definitely a bit rough but I think its ok. Ele's, Invokers and Necros all have it pretty easy if you know where to xp and take advantage of their other benefits. Invokers can be useful zoning pretty early on, Necros can solo xp early on and Ele's can twink and do fun stuff early on.


none of tha tis what i'm walking about - and elementalist solo xp'ng with any efficiency is a matter of debate.

i'm talking about xp in a small group, and how little mages get because people arent willing to wait for the mage to mem for each fight so they can get dmg xp as well
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Postby bawog » Thu Oct 25, 2007 4:09 am

none of tha tis what i'm walking about - and elementalist solo xp'ng with any efficiency is a matter of debate.


In all actuality elementalist can solo from 26 on up, and I'd gander to guess that patience is not a virtue maybe? From what I've tested and done myself exping is fun and a challege solo. Never played a soloable class xp before and its quite exciting to tackle mobs. Don't need spanky eq to do it either, just a sharp eye and quick fingers!

And in terms of groups not patient for you to mem spells back try memming out at like few wounds if yer in a small group of people yer level. Its quite helpful.
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Postby Ghimok » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:36 pm

I soloed Ghimok from level 31-50 just fine. It took a while, but it surely helped my skills as an elementalist.

I got Emeslan, my enchanter, from level 20 to level 46 in 3 days, and soloed from level 46 to level 50 in another 2 days.

An invoker can fly through experience from level 41-50 fairly easily. Admitedly levels 31-41 are a bit of a pain, but totally doable.

A necro/lich is pretty much a total cakewalk to level if you have any ability with zMUD at all.

It's already been stated in this thread by a respected illusionist that they aren't difficult to level past the midterm. I wouldn't know as they suck too bad at low levels to pique my interest.

Also it's my opinion that if you're getting at least 1% per kill it's not bad experience. 5 hours per level is not that big of a deal as long as it's after level 30. What's the rush?

I really don't think the mage classes are that big of a problem. I know rogues/rangers aren't a problem to level. Heck even my warrior I end up just leaving empty corpses and not ressing as I exp so easily.

To me, making experience any more easy past the midpoint of the game would be like handing every person who rolls the character a level 50 right off the bat and saying "here do something with this" Feh.
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Postby Corth » Thu Oct 25, 2007 3:58 pm

Ghimok wrote:To me, making experience any more easy past the midpoint of the game would be like handing every person who rolls the character a level 50 right off the bat and saying "here do something with this" Feh.


Still trying to figure out whats so wrong with that. Exp on toril is a mindless timesink. Its very easy to exp to level 50 and have no idea how to handle your class in a zone. So what are we really getting out of spending dozens of hours killing the same thing over and over and over again? A diploma that says you were capable of enduring boring mindless hours of exp, for no good reason, just so you can get to high enough level to zone? Why not just let us roll level 50?
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:05 pm

Corth wrote:
Ghimok wrote:To me, making experience any more easy past the midpoint of the game would be like handing every person who rolls the character a level 50 right off the bat and saying "here do something with this" Feh.


Still trying to figure out whats so wrong with that. Exp on toril is a mindless timesink. Its very easy to exp to level 50 and have no idea how to handle your class in a zone. So what are we really getting out of spending dozens of hours killing the same thing over and over and over again? A diploma that says you were capable of enduring boring mindless hours of exp, for no good reason, just so you can get to high enough level to zone? Why not just let us roll level 50?


If you already concur that it's very easy to exp to level 50 then what are you complaining about? You can't say it's very easy and then complain about how long it takes in the next breath... well, you could, but it's very flawed reasoning.

Besides, there are a lot of things you learn about your class--if you pay attention--when you're leveling up, using limited skills/spells. Add to that the intangible but very real sense of accomplishment you get when you hit certain levels and discover the power in new skills and spells as you level... it allows you to appreciate your class's abilities more.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:23 pm

Birile wrote:
Corth wrote:
Ghimok wrote:To me, making experience any more easy past the midpoint of the game would be like handing every person who rolls the character a level 50 right off the bat and saying "here do something with this" Feh.


Still trying to figure out whats so wrong with that. Exp on toril is a mindless timesink. Its very easy to exp to level 50 and have no idea how to handle your class in a zone. So what are we really getting out of spending dozens of hours killing the same thing over and over and over again? A diploma that says you were capable of enduring boring mindless hours of exp, for no good reason, just so you can get to high enough level to zone? Why not just let us roll level 50?


If you already concur that it's very easy to exp to level 50 then what are you complaining about? You can't say it's very easy and then complain about how long it takes in the next breath... well, you could, but it's very flawed reasoning.

Besides, there are a lot of things you learn about your class--if you pay attention--when you're leveling up, using limited skills/spells. Add to that the intangible but very real sense of accomplishment you get when you hit certain levels and discover the power in new skills and spells as you level... it allows you to appreciate your class's abilities more.


you totally missed corths..and my..point

yes, xp is easy. but it's a timesink

here let me put it into perspective - in order to kill a 'are you mad' mob solo on my elementalist, it takes 12 earth stones 24 thunder lances

ie. i have to go and mem out 4 times. it takes about 2 minutes per mem. so 6 minutes to kill a mob that gives between 1 and 2% xp

that's a timesink


but that's not even what the fuck i was talking about

xp'ng in groups as a caster means you cast little to nothing so you arent sitting out memming for two or three fights.


if i use offensive spells while xp'ng in a group, i can get 2% per kill. but that's every third kill only. every other kil is 1%, or 2 kills per 1% depending on how it rolled.

in the time it took me to get 40-41, a level 44 warrior got 44-46.


doing mindless xp does not make you a better player. that's just silly to even suggest. doing zones and taking directions well in zones makes you a better player. the skills you might learn while solo dont necessarily translate well to a grouped environment - that's just common sense.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 25, 2007 6:51 pm

I disagree. If I hadn't solo'd my way to 36 as a shaman I wouldn't have a good understanding of the combat engine that most players lack. The skills you learn solo help ALOT with a group environment. If you can't think for yourself and constantly hide behind people you're going to turn out to be a shitty player. There's a huge difference between the people who can do small group npcs and the people who were powerleveled via groups.

The only real argument you have is the uneven leveling field between classes.
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Postby kragt » Thu Oct 25, 2007 7:59 pm

What I would like to see if there is a next phase is this:

1. Remove all xp but kill xp.

2. Normalize xp tables.

3. Reduce grouping penalty.
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Postby selerial » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:00 pm

I'd just like to throw my two cents in: Elementalists really aren't pure casters. They are more like a tank and caster combo, and can solo a lot of pretty good gear/zones, nevermind xp.

Otherwise, I don't especially have an opinion on the matter.
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:28 pm

kragt wrote:What I would like to see if there is a next phase is this:

1. Remove all xp but kill xp.

2. Normalize xp tables.

3. Reduce grouping penalty.


Not to sound like a broken record, but that's exactly what 2.0 does, and is beyond the scope of these band-aid fixes.
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 25, 2007 8:56 pm

Teyaha wrote:
Birile wrote:
Corth wrote:
Ghimok wrote:To me, making experience any more easy past the midpoint of the game would be like handing every person who rolls the character a level 50 right off the bat and saying "here do something with this" Feh.


Still trying to figure out whats so wrong with that. Exp on toril is a mindless timesink. Its very easy to exp to level 50 and have no idea how to handle your class in a zone. So what are we really getting out of spending dozens of hours killing the same thing over and over and over again? A diploma that says you were capable of enduring boring mindless hours of exp, for no good reason, just so you can get to high enough level to zone? Why not just let us roll level 50?


If you already concur that it's very easy to exp to level 50 then what are you complaining about? You can't say it's very easy and then complain about how long it takes in the next breath... well, you could, but it's very flawed reasoning.

Besides, there are a lot of things you learn about your class--if you pay attention--when you're leveling up, using limited skills/spells. Add to that the intangible but very real sense of accomplishment you get when you hit certain levels and discover the power in new skills and spells as you level... it allows you to appreciate your class's abilities more.


you totally missed corths..and my..point


I didn't miss Corth's point at all--I disagreed with the point he was trying to make and disagreed with how he tried to make that point. As for your point, I didn't even address anything you said directly so it's a little unfair to accuse me of missing it. I don't, frankly, have much of an opinion on caster exp issues. I just think it's silly to ever suggest that we may as well hand out level 50 characters to people, and equally silly to think people don't actually learn something about their class and about combat in general while doing "mindless" exp. If you're paying attention to what's going on in the least, you're still going to pick up things here or there and I stand by the fact that putting in the hours gives you more of an appreciation when you hit level 50 than being handed the level 50 character from the get-go.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Oct 25, 2007 9:46 pm

I think there is an EXP penalty if the mob can't see you. It's hard to tell if its an "invisibile" penalty or some other factor. It doesn't seem to be big enough to really matter in either case.

I'm not sure what exping / pleveling really does for you, but I am sure that we need it. Being level 50 should be an accomplishment regardless of whether its reflective of skill or of mind numbing stupidity it should carry some special weight.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:41 am

Every game you play has certain, necessary timesinks .. Try different mobs with your elementalist, Teyaha .. At lvl 50, mine STILL gets 1%/kill on DS warriors *shrug* .. it is not so necessary to kill the higher mobs to get the best experience .. different classed mobs net different experience .. in fact it is my opinion that if you arent soloing with your solo class, you arent making the best of it .. nor are you learning the quirks and intricacies of the class.

If you are grouping with your mage, be prepared for the memming issue .. dont "blow your wad", use your spells more efficiently .. listen to others who have been there before you. I level mages in general .. I love them .. are there downsides? Indeed there are .. as it stands your average enchanter watches those who they spell up far out xp them .. who cares? Where have we gone that there is no more pride in attaining level 50? Hell I am still impressed I managed to lvl a second enchanter and my elementalist, also a necro .. when I liched her I felt like I'd hit the sky, I was so proud of myself ..
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:26 am

Shevarash wrote:
kragt wrote:What I would like to see if there is a next phase is this:

1. Remove all xp but kill xp.

2. Normalize xp tables.

3. Reduce grouping penalty.


Not to sound like a broken record, but that's exactly what 2.0 does, and is beyond the scope of these band-aid fixes.


You can't just reduce the grouping penalty? :(
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Teyaha » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:56 am

Ambar wrote:Every game you play has certain, necessary timesinks .. Try different mobs with your elementalist, Teyaha .. At lvl 50, mine STILL gets 1%/kill on DS warriors *shrug* .. it is not so necessary to kill the higher mobs to get the best experience .. different classed mobs net different experience .. in fact it is my opinion that if you arent soloing with your solo class, you arent making the best of it .. nor are you learning the quirks and intricacies of the class.

If you are grouping with your mage, be prepared for the memming issue .. dont "blow your wad", use your spells more efficiently .. listen to others who have been there before you. I level mages in general .. I love them .. are there downsides? Indeed there are .. as it stands your average enchanter watches those who they spell up far out xp them .. who cares? Where have we gone that there is no more pride in attaining level 50? Hell I am still impressed I managed to lvl a second enchanter and my elementalist, also a necro .. when I liched her I felt like I'd hit the sky, I was so proud of myself ..


yeah i'm sure a level 50 elementalist can solo well

but before you have a few earthbloods you are relying entirely on thunder lances which, as you approach 40, no longer really get the job done

so it's not an issue of whether or not i can solo. i can solo just fine. but it does take 6-10 minutes for one kill that gives 2% xp. whereas in that 6-10 minutes in a group of 4 in can get 3-5% (even though the other non-casters in the group get 5-10% in the same time)

my whole point - and only issue - is the drastic imbalance between pure casters and everyone else in xp gain 35-45. the soloing aspect really means jack to me. if i wanted to primarily solo all my xp my goodie would have been a necro because quite frankly an elementalist has nothing on a necro when it comes to solo power. yeah yeah..they get nice tools. yeah yeah, the 50 elementalists can solo all kinds of things that necros would have issues with because of the utility of a level 50 elemetnalist - but you dont start out as a level 50.


but i guess we gotta wait till 2.0 for a fix, so thread is at an end really.
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Oct 26, 2007 1:58 am

Birile wrote:
Teyaha wrote:
Birile wrote:
Corth wrote:
Ghimok wrote:To me, making experience any more easy past the midpoint of the game would be like handing every person who rolls the character a level 50 right off the bat and saying "here do something with this" Feh.


Still trying to figure out whats so wrong with that. Exp on toril is a mindless timesink. Its very easy to exp to level 50 and have no idea how to handle your class in a zone. So what are we really getting out of spending dozens of hours killing the same thing over and over and over again? A diploma that says you were capable of enduring boring mindless hours of exp, for no good reason, just so you can get to high enough level to zone? Why not just let us roll level 50?


If you already concur that it's very easy to exp to level 50 then what are you complaining about? You can't say it's very easy and then complain about how long it takes in the next breath... well, you could, but it's very flawed reasoning.

Besides, there are a lot of things you learn about your class--if you pay attention--when you're leveling up, using limited skills/spells. Add to that the intangible but very real sense of accomplishment you get when you hit certain levels and discover the power in new skills and spells as you level... it allows you to appreciate your class's abilities more.


you totally missed corths..and my..point


I didn't miss Corth's point at all--I disagreed with the point he was trying to make and disagreed with how he tried to make that point. As for your point, I didn't even address anything you said directly so it's a little unfair to accuse me of missing it. I don't, frankly, have much of an opinion on caster exp issues. I just think it's silly to ever suggest that we may as well hand out level 50 characters to people, and equally silly to think people don't actually learn something about their class and about combat in general while doing "mindless" exp. If you're paying attention to what's going on in the least, you're still going to pick up things here or there and I stand by the fact that putting in the hours gives you more of an appreciation when you hit level 50 than being handed the level 50 character from the get-go.



not gonna split hairs. both of your posts are pretty much off topic. the topic was the drastic difference between pure casters and melee classes doing xp 35-45. you others brought up and proceeded to expound on the solo part - which quite frankly i dont give two shits about. soloing is what necros are for. when i want to solo, it's usually to farm money. at which point i get on my NAKED 49 snake necro and proceed to kill all but the two mages and the priestess on the ship before it can repop - without having to cast more than a handful of spells - with just a spectre and ghost. but again - that's not what this thread was even about


either way, shev said it's coming 2.0, so we're done
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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:42 am

Birile,

I don't think I called exp easy. I have never had a level 50 char on this mud because exp is so damned difficult. There is nothing easy about sitting around for dozens of hours mindlessly killing the same mob over and over again. I am in awe of all those people with 10+ level 50 chars. Their capacity for mindless tasks is impressive. I am not sure, however, that they are any better at playing the game than someone who never quite made it to level 50.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Ambar » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:55 am

Yeah cause to get to 50 I didnt have to go thru the 40's .. I was setbit right to 50

Glad some things dont change :)
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Postby Malia » Fri Oct 26, 2007 12:52 pm

Considering i have EXPED most classes to 50, I disagree that exp is too dificult, infact id rather see it ALOT harder to get to 50 and have being 50 mean something again.

Enchanter, Elementalist, Necro, Lich, Druid, Cleric, Illu, can all solo EXTREMLY easy if you know where

Voker is the only class thats dificult to solo with not much in way of defense ability or healing ability.

If your having problems in groups getting exp cuz no one waits for you to mem, then you need to learn to mem out, mem 2 spells go back in, it gets faster as you get better. But, as a leader i sure as hell aint gonna wait for you to mem after each mob in a zone, so learn it now so your not totaly lost when you start zoning.

I think the exp tables should be increased rather then decreased

I also have 2 lvl 50 elementalist, 2 lvl 50 and 1 lvl 48 enchanter, 1 lvl 50 illu, 1 lvl 50 cleric 1 lvl 50 druid, 1 lvl 50 shaman, 1 lvl 50 voker so yes i have a little experience lvling them, if you know where to exp and how to memout yer can get 50 in under 5 pdays with most casters.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Oct 26, 2007 2:15 pm

I heart you Ross :)
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Postby Ghimok » Fri Oct 26, 2007 4:22 pm

I think it'd be cool if level 40 or so was the point where you could be effective and useful in zones. Make it relatively simple to get to level 40.

Then make it so that from level 40 to 50 is insanely difficult to progress, but yields massive gains in ability.

Basically what I'm saying is have a completely different progression (in 2.0) whereby 1-25 are cake (lure them in), 25-40 are only moderately difficult (but 40 is zoning level, with all the power that currently level 50 has), and them make levels 40-50 about 20x harder than current to achieve. Maybe even make it so you have to smite a specific difficult zone, or complete a quest to actually set the next level. Give level 41+ characters super powers. Hell make it so you can't even wear tiamat gear until you're level 45, but make it sing. Then pwipe.

The alternative to this would be to add a few more levels on top of the 50 we already have and reduce exp across the board by another 25%. Make each level above 50 hard as hell to get in terms of experience needed, prestige required, high-end items, quested, or difficult mobs smitten. Give each level above 50 a kick-ass new skill or spell, or even open up the ability to wear certain artifact-level items (like khanjaris or valhalla scepter, er nevermind, just khanjari), or give cross-class spells. Maybe metamagic feats that allow casters of one sphere to cast another sphere's spells at a higher cost.

Actually I like the 2nd idea better.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Oct 26, 2007 5:26 pm

This topic is a perfect example of how crappy these forums are. One person posts, someone goes off on tangent by going completely off the topic and the rest of the BBS jumps on that guy.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Corth » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:25 pm

I think the point I'm trying to make is that your level is supposed to be a reflection of how good a player you are, whereas in practice its a reflection of your capacity to spend dozens of hours repeating the same steps over and over again. I really don't see anyone benefitting from doing massive hours of exp, as far as becoming better players or otherwise, so I'm not exactly sure why people want to maintain an EXP system at all...

For instance.. Malia says that level 50 needs to mean something again. I totally agree. If it were up to me, you wouldn't be able to get to level 50 unless you demonstrated that you were among the best players in your class out there. But I think Malia would simply make you do a few dozen more hours of exp to get to 50. I'm not sure that makes 50 mean anything more than it already does.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Teyaha » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:34 pm

Corth wrote:I think the point I'm trying to make is that your level is supposed to be a reflection of how good a player you are, whereas in practice its a reflection of your capacity to spend dozens of hours repeating the same steps over and over again. I really don't see anyone benefitting from doing massive hours of exp, as far as becoming better players or otherwise, so I'm not exactly sure why people want to maintain an EXP system at all...

For instance.. Malia says that level 50 needs to mean something again. I totally agree. If it were up to me, you wouldn't be able to get to level 50 unless you demonstrated that you were among the best players in your class out there. But I think Malia would simply make you do a few dozen more hours of exp to get to 50. I'm not sure that makes 50 mean anything more than it already does.


corth and dalar are theonly ones that seem to get it

as i already said, i dont care about soloing. i dont care how fast you got your friends to plevel you to 50

all i care about is the disparity between the classes due to extreme melee dmg xp.

but also as i said, since shev is addressing this in toril 2.0, the t hread is moot

i've been here 12 years and have never had a 50. i may be an ass, but i dont suck as a player.
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Postby Birile » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:49 pm

Teyaha wrote:but also as i said, since shev is addressing this in toril 2.0, the t hread is moot


Given who started this thread, is this where Corth would normally come in and say he wanted his X amount of time wasted back?
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Postby Ghimok » Fri Oct 26, 2007 6:57 pm

Corth, That's why I'm saying raise the bar and then actually make it difficult to get to that new bar.

With the example of adding another 5 levels so that there are 50 levels. Leave levels 1-50 as they are now but make the experience for those levels significantly easier. I'm pretty sure you can't honestly believe that leveling serves no tutorial purpose at all (while I do agree that it's minimal, it does teach some game fundamentals). Then for the levels 51-55 make progression contingent upon completiion of something more significant than smiting the same duergar over and over. Possible examples:
    Level 51 - Smiting of a difficult zone such as magma, spob, etc (automatic)
    Level 52- Completion of a generalized, but involved quest somewhere around Erlans in difficulty (automatic)
    Level 53- Sucessfull completion of a tiamat group (item in vault, automatic)
    Level 54- Mentor a new player in your chosen class and help to get them to level 50 with all skills/spells. (god involvement)
    Level 55- Most important: completion of a solo task that only a MASTER of the class could complete. Like in order to get level 55 as an elementalist make the ele solo manscopions as an example. Level 55 should be a god-run and monitored solo quest.(god involvment obviously)


This way you couldn't ever reach level 55 without being well-rounded and a true master of the game and your class.

Level 50 would still be a totally zoneable character and would take, on average 5-10 evenings of exping to get level 50 for someone of above average intelligence. I think to go from level 49-50 you should have to participate in something along the lines of Knight's Test also.

Level 55 could take years and might not even be possible at all for some people without enough time or skill.
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Postby Ghimok » Fri Oct 26, 2007 7:07 pm

Also as an aside to my above post I feel that the move towards straight-up kill only exp is a move in the wrong direction.

I propose a system whereby kill experience is weighted at 90% of your experience requirements, but is HEAVILY regulated by a functioning and heavy-handed trophy system ala what Sarell has been begging for for years.

In addition to this I believe that in order to obtain the other 10% of experience required to actually proceed to the next experience level the user should be required to utilize their class's skills X amount of times succesfully. Whether this is a rogue who sneaks through a zone and assassinates a mob, an elementalist who summons a water elemental, or a warrior who rescues one of his comrades during combat ther should be a required amount of skill use to generate the balance of exp required to proceed to the next level.

Standing there idly and not even using your class's skills at all could, with this proposed 2.0 plan, provide just as much experience as doing all the work.
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Postby kragt » Fri Oct 26, 2007 8:42 pm

Shevarash wrote:
kragt wrote:What I would like to see if there is a next phase is this:

1. Remove all xp but kill xp.

2. Normalize xp tables.

3. Reduce grouping penalty.


Not to sound like a broken record, but that's exactly what 2.0 does, and is beyond the scope of these band-aid fixes.


It seems to me that #3 should be fairly easy to implement. Currently in the code there must be an algorithm that determines the xp received for each group member whenever a mob is killed. It should be possible to put a scaling bonus to the xp based on the number of people in the group and multiply the final xp award by the result of that algorithm.
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Postby Sundara » Fri Oct 26, 2007 11:06 pm

Corth wrote:Birile,

I don't think I called exp easy. I have never had a level 50 char on this mud because exp is so damned difficult. There is nothing easy about sitting around for dozens of hours mindlessly killing the same mob over and over again. I am in awe of all those people with 10+ level 50 chars. Their capacity for mindless tasks is impressive. I am not sure, however, that they are any better at playing the game than someone who never quite made it to level 50.


I totally agree with you. I'm in awe with mudders that have so many lvl 50 chars on this mud. I have only 1 lvl 50 and attempted another char years back but just didn't have it in me to do the "forever expin" game.
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 12:36 am

Ghimok wrote:Corth, That's why I'm saying raise the bar and then actually make it difficult to get to that new bar.

With the example of adding another 5 levels so that there are 50 levels. Leave levels 1-50 as they are now but make the experience for those levels significantly easier. I'm pretty sure you can't honestly believe that leveling serves no tutorial purpose at all (while I do agree that it's minimal, it does teach some game fundamentals). Then for the levels 51-55 make progression contingent upon completiion of something more significant than smiting the same duergar over and over. Possible examples:
    Level 51 - Smiting of a difficult zone such as magma, spob, etc (automatic)
    Level 52- Completion of a generalized, but involved quest somewhere around Erlans in difficulty (automatic)
    Level 53- Sucessfull completion of a tiamat group (item in vault, automatic)
    Level 54- Mentor a new player in your chosen class and help to get them to level 50 with all skills/spells. (god involvement)
    Level 55- Most important: completion of a solo task that only a MASTER of the class could complete. Like in order to get level 55 as an elementalist make the ele solo manscopions as an example. Level 55 should be a god-run and monitored solo quest.(god involvment obviously)

This way you couldn't ever reach level 55 without being well-rounded and a true master of the game and your class.

Level 50 would still be a totally zoneable character and would take, on average 5-10 evenings of exping to get level 50 for someone of above average intelligence. I think to go from level 49-50 you should have to participate in something along the lines of Knight's Test also.

Level 55 could take years and might not even be possible at all for some people without enough time or skill.


seriously, someone has to explain to me how doing xp = zoning skill

solo xp. hell, any xp. lets examine it shall we?

solo: kill kill kill..maybe flee if it's a caster to interrupt it if you dont have any bashing. kill kill. mem mem. profit.



i'm sorry but at no point does soloing make you a better zoner. zoning is just as much about working in a team and following directions t han anything else - and soloing sure as hell doesnt each you that

regular small group xp that's NOT in a zone is just as mindless and has no real skill interaciton - other than literal skill practice


the straight kill for xp is the best solution all around. anything else that's planned that is weighted towards using skills during a fight per kill will always give an edge to melee'ers, who at no point have to stop and rest out of the very room everyone is fighting in DURING the fight

i'm glad for those that have multiple 50's. if i didnt take the last 4 years off, i'd have more than two chars over 45 myself i'm sure. but that's not exactly a badge of honor. more like an indicator of just how much xp was originally dinged for the 1-45 grind 6 years ago, and how little there is to do in this game beyond zoning and xp'ng. questing is great no doubt, but not required to advance in this game in anyway outside of the spell quests - again - for pure casters.

rogues should have to quest for assassinate, and make the quest equal in difficulty to elemental fire embodiment. same with headbutt.


but again - way off topic. nobody can tell me that casters do not xp slower than melee'rs, especially poor clerics.

5 more levels? so now people wont even zone with you until you are 49? i mean seriously, if you want the cap to be 55, no way in hell you can also convince people to bring sub 40's to zone. that's a lot more hp, a lot more circles, a lot more memorized slots, a lot more skill notches. that's just circular thinking there

force people to use skills?

hrm. at the same time, people getting casters to 50 in 5 played days? my enchanter has 57 played days at 47 and she hasnt maxed all pertinent skills nothces for that level yet. i have a hard time believing anyone - especially a caster - has their relevent skills notched at or even close to 90 by the time they hit 50 in only 5 days played. hell, my current elementalist is 41 with 5 days 8 hours played and not a single spellcasting skill is maxed for that level yet - and not for a lack of useage in a group



anyway i'm done with this thread. people with 8 or more 50's shouldnt be proposing a drastic change to the xp tables pre 50 unless they are wiling to give up those 50's and start over themselves. hindsight is 20/20, the grass is greener, etc.
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Postby Malia » Sat Oct 27, 2007 1:58 am

Shrug i have started over Several times infact i started Elano last month hes now 50 grey elf enchanter , and im working on my drow chanter atm who was 39 earlier this month and is now 48, shrug exp in this mud is cake, is TOO easy.

Solo exping does increase skill it lets you know what your character is capable of, can you as an elementalist go solo an entire zone? yes there are several that can. Soloing creates great zoning skill.

From your post your saying you cant keep up with small group spells and memout and still get exp yet you wanna do zones. If you cant keep up with small groups yer skills arent nearly what they need to be to keep up with 15 man groups
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:13 am

Malia wrote:
From your post your saying you cant keep up with small group spells and memout and still get exp yet you wanna do zones. If you cant keep up with small groups yer skills arent nearly what they need to be to keep up with 15 man groups


nice ASSumption there, asshole

why dont you go take a course in reading comprehension and come back and post on the topic - the disparity between pure casters and melee when doing xp.
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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 27, 2007 2:58 am

Glad Teyaha is making his name known on the goodie side now :)
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Postby bawog » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:39 am

anyway i'm done with this thread. people with 8 or more 50's shouldnt be proposing a drastic change to the xp tables pre 50 unless they are wiling to give up those 50's and start over themselves. hindsight is 20/20, the grass is greener, etc.


nice ASSumption there, asshole

why dont you go take a course in reading comprehension and come back and post on the topic - the disparity between pure casters and melee when doing xp.


OMG OMG I thought Teyaha was done with this thread apparently not! Its not the level 50 alts that I'm talking about either its more so along the lines of how bad do you want it. I've had and lost 50 on all my characters and just shrug it off and go back to the grind(wether it be solo or in groups) Never once have I bitched about the tables, and I even do pshift prime until I find manscorps or hulburg. And still just laugh it off, cause I do believe we all play this game to have fun maybe? Apparently some people are too wrapped up in their own self loathing and bitching to clear their minds and just have fun, I mean seriously, get a grip man! Crack a cold one, sit back relax and have a good time for petes sake.
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Postby Shevarash » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:09 am

Stop with the flaming and personal attacks.
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Postby Malia » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:15 am

regarding pure melee vs caster exp in my opinion id rather lvl a caster any day of the week vs a melee. Its very rare to find a melee that can solo exp at any steady pace, yet almost every caster except maybe invoker can solo and an extremely good pace.

Damage exp is damage exp, if your killing a mob solo your doing same amount of damage as a melee person killing the same mob. Learn the strengths of your class and where you can maximize your time doing exp instead of wasting it on bbs complaining.

End game casters vs melee.
What rogue/ranger/warrior/anti/pladin/dire has ever soloed a zone of any depth? none that i can think of.

What caster classes have soloed same zones? Ele/Druid/Illu/Chanter can all solo several zones given the right amount of time and skill.

Melee vs casters casters win both ways

At least in my opinion, not that i have any experience playing either classes
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Postby Ifin » Sat Oct 27, 2007 5:36 am

I see people on one hand say how easy it is to xp casters, their casters, etc. But that's on the assumption that you already know how to level, have the gear to level easily, and have friends who don't need xp but will do it w/you anyways.

Which is where I see T's defensive tone from.

But, levelling does mean something. To a point where you have to spend x hours gaining a level, you might start getting a "feel" of how each of your skills work. And I agree, maybe once you reach that point, it's very easy to just convert it to zMUD scripts. But games still need a measurement to mark an advancement of players.

Time just happens to be that measurement, unless you have some crazy sort of quests that people do to advance in levels, in that case people might complain that they might not be learning anything new b/c they get handed items, or it's a matter of what friends they have, etc etc., there'll always be complaints.

You say melee level faster - yes. I would say all but rogues are 'unbalanced' in the xp sense. All casters are much more powerful than their melee counterparts (except eq'ed rogues), and so if they level, according to you, about 25% faster (which is about right), then unless you advocate reducing their xp tables as well, that 25% is the extra power mages have.

It's always a negative curve how much you learn vrs time spent/level, where we cut it off is always debatable that can only be polled by people who've done it. Me, personally, I agree 35-45 is long for mages, but I don't think excessively long for the power you receive in game-wise.

And if trophy worked the way it should, *then* I could also see how advocating a further decrease in xp tables would be helpful - b/c you'd have to move around to advance, and therefore, gain real valueable experience that could help in zones. Or if, say, xp places like HP/IC/MS (where there are aggros, assisters, and little quarks) were made more viable.

And while I think making it easier to reach zoning due to how the game is now (which it was), I also think level 50 or the "upper echlons" should also be given more weight. One easy way is to increase level 49 xp table (or lvls 46-49). Implementing quests, which would also be cool, would also take a lot of effort to implement.
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Postby Lilira » Sat Oct 27, 2007 3:42 pm

It is my opinion that shortening the XP tables for the mid-game more than what has already been done would only be detrimental. Here is my reasoning, mostly gathered from personal experience.

I have a level 49 enchanter, level 48 invoker, level 47th necro, level 46th druid and a level 25th elem. I have an illu running around somewhere, but I got bored with XP grinding for the most part so she's pretty much in a holding pattern. I have a cleric or two as well. I'm only listing these to show that yeah, I'm not someone just shooting her mouth off without knowing what I'm talking about.

XPing mages is brutal. Here's the thing though... end game power is such that their spells can make or break a zone.

Ench. Do people really go anywhere for the most part without an enchanter? With my enchanter, despite her lack of healing and only minimal damage spells, I can solo stuff I never imagined possible. Why? Cus the mobs can hardly bust through all the buffs to hit me! That's power! But an enchanter who can't do their job in a zone just gets people killed which tosses everyone back into the xp grind despite res. I won't zone my enchanter. *laugh* Its not fun for me. I get stressed and bitchy and people who have grouped with me can attest to this.

Illus. Several zones people won't even attempt without them. Area stun, buffs, damage. In the case of a serious oh crap, the means to hide the group as a whole.

Vokers. Area damage from hell. Enough said. Really good ones can kick butt on their own. Watch Pidibeple sometime.

Necros/lich (no xp playing Lich). Great for quick group regathering in case of spanks (necro). Very versatile with the little armies they can command. More than some people realize. Damage on living and undead, very nice. Great for soloing fun mobs if you're good.

Druid. Bring on the nature babee and I'll kick some major butt. Great for transportation. Druids have their niche in the group as nature vokers and backup clerics. Toss in moonwell and you've got a really great class. Just watch Sotana or Lilithelle in action.

Elems. I have had the fortune to watch two great ones in action. Inama and Arishae. Frankly the class bores me with the grinding atm, but she's only 25th. Those two make it look EASY. Buffs, healing capability, pets. Exceedingly versatile.

All of those are incredibly powerful in the higher levels. It should NOT be a walk in the park to get there. Especially when the player needs experience as much as the character. Racing to 50th with no real concern for learning the class and you end up with a level 50 character with a player who can only play it well to level 25. You also see them with a sad lack of imagination and class knowledge. Once they hit 50th, they can function, kinda in a zone group, but if things go to hell in a handbasket, the odd burst of inspiration that could possibly salvage a situation can be lacking.
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Re: Band-Aid Phase 2 suggestion - Pure Casters

Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 27, 2007 4:05 pm

Teyaha wrote:phase 1 was a great boon for all players. the changes that were introduced will go a long way to keeping people interested, and making the game less hostile to new players in a genre oversaturated with easy to play games


but pure casters still need help in the 35-45 range when it comes to xp

today in xp groups, pure casters cast at a minimum to reduce mem times out of combat.

this serves two real problems. firstly, the lack of dmg experience. and secondly, the lack of experience outside of the kill itself - which is easily missed if your only condition caller is a bash-lagged tank.


i would recommend an additional 10 or 15 percent increase in pure caster xp for levels 35-45. in a group of 4 in either cm, ds, ship or...randars? i think it's called...a pure caster is geting on average 1% per kill or 1% every other tkill at level 39. that's a lot of kills required to level and many hours before you can survive the zones people are doing today. and lets face it - the real game for TorilMUD is zoning.

from 10am today until 3pm today i did xp in a group with a 50 warrior, a 45 rogue, a 43 ranger and a 34 illusionist. we were chain killing those orcs at an extremely fast rate - but due to switching myself and the illusionist were asked to stay invis and just cast stones/embodies/hastes/displacements.

at 38-39 i got 1% per kill, with occaisonal 2 kills for the 1%. in that 5 hour period i got 97% total xp gain. you dont even want to know what the rogue and ranger got - and they were higher level.

the only band-aid to this that would work short term is further reducing pure caster xp tables between levels 35 and 45. ideally, a system that encourages casters to actually cast dmg spells even in a group that has a rogue would be the best solution - but i have no ideas on that myself.

it's kind of funny though. at the beginning of sojourn 3, there were posts asking when melee dmg was going to be brought UP to the level of caster dmg. now, melee dmg so far outstrips caster dmg outside of invokers it's no real competition. even a well geared warrior will blow away most casters because - unlike the casters - the better their gear, the more dmg they do. casters have no way of increasing their dmg without some sort of debuff from necros/liches/priests/shaman. gear just gives them hp.


I quoted the original post to illustrate that everyone has answered the questions posed and been met with nothing but criticism by the person asking the question .. He has been offered advice by some very skilled/knowledgeable players and has stated himself that he has been on the mud at least 11 years since he knows the same people I know .. Raner. Tellaerin .. and my ancient creaky bones has been around sine 1996

I am not sure which caster you took to Randars but consider this .. in a group of 4-5 people in a zone designed for 2, maybe 3 you did not maximize the zone .. it is VERY common for a rogue to tank this zone with an enchanter or elementalist to stone or scale and haste .. also a lvl 39 caster killing lvl 54 and 55 mobs (i think .. they may be 52 or 53 but I am assuming since they are assassinable) is not going to get as much xp .. you arent doing the damage needed for a mob that high lvl .. hell the best decked out melee class cant HIT a mob that much higher let alone kill it ..

Shev KNOWS group xp needs tweaked, that topic has been ground down like nubby teeth .. but consider that it may be a bigger job than the NUMEROUS bandaid fixes that have already been made .. I have never seen xp tables RAISED, they have been lowered several times over the years .. odd how noone complains when they are lowered, only when we feel it needs lowered yet again ..

Condition callers .. I have learned over the years when to mem out and when not to .. if you are missing kills, you are either being greedy and trying to get that last spell memmed or not prioritizing, or just not paying attention yourself to the mob's condition .. Condition callers are a great tool, but do not rely on them entirely .. a little common sense goes a long way

I hope this doesnt seem like a direct personal attack, it is not meant to be .. it is meant maybe to shed some light on some playing style/playing issue questions that have been asked.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:14 pm

Corth wrote:Its very easy to exp to level 50 and have no idea how to handle your class in a zone.


Yeah, that's essentially the problem. Maybe we should remove all XP zones. If people had to fight tracking agros for their XP, they'd learn not to wander.
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Re: Band-Aid Phase 2 suggestion - Pure Casters

Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:46 pm

Ambar wrote:
Teyaha wrote:phase 1 was a great boon for all players. the changes that were introduced will go a long way to keeping people interested, and making the game less hostile to new players in a genre oversaturated with easy to play games


but pure casters still need help in the 35-45 range when it comes to xp

today in xp groups, pure casters cast at a minimum to reduce mem times out of combat.

this serves two real problems. firstly, the lack of dmg experience. and secondly, the lack of experience outside of the kill itself - which is easily missed if your only condition caller is a bash-lagged tank.


i would recommend an additional 10 or 15 percent increase in pure caster xp for levels 35-45. in a group of 4 in either cm, ds, ship or...randars? i think it's called...a pure caster is geting on average 1% per kill or 1% every other tkill at level 39. that's a lot of kills required to level and many hours before you can survive the zones people are doing today. and lets face it - the real game for TorilMUD is zoning.

from 10am today until 3pm today i did xp in a group with a 50 warrior, a 45 rogue, a 43 ranger and a 34 illusionist. we were chain killing those orcs at an extremely fast rate - but due to switching myself and the illusionist were asked to stay invis and just cast stones/embodies/hastes/displacements.

at 38-39 i got 1% per kill, with occaisonal 2 kills for the 1%. in that 5 hour period i got 97% total xp gain. you dont even want to know what the rogue and ranger got - and they were higher level.

the only band-aid to this that would work short term is further reducing pure caster xp tables between levels 35 and 45. ideally, a system that encourages casters to actually cast dmg spells even in a group that has a rogue would be the best solution - but i have no ideas on that myself.

it's kind of funny though. at the beginning of sojourn 3, there were posts asking when melee dmg was going to be brought UP to the level of caster dmg. now, melee dmg so far outstrips caster dmg outside of invokers it's no real competition. even a well geared warrior will blow away most casters because - unlike the casters - the better their gear, the more dmg they do. casters have no way of increasing their dmg without some sort of debuff from necros/liches/priests/shaman. gear just gives them hp.


I quoted the original post to illustrate that everyone has answered the questions posed and been met with nothing but criticism by the person asking the question .. He has been offered advice by some very skilled/knowledgeable players and has stated himself that he has been on the mud at least 11 years since he knows the same people I know .. Raner. Tellaerin .. and my ancient creaky bones has been around sine 1996

I am not sure which caster you took to Randars but consider this .. in a group of 4-5 people in a zone designed for 2, maybe 3 you did not maximize the zone .. it is VERY common for a rogue to tank this zone with an enchanter or elementalist to stone or scale and haste .. also a lvl 39 caster killing lvl 54 and 55 mobs (i think .. they may be 52 or 53 but I am assuming since they are assassinable) is not going to get as much xp .. you arent doing the damage needed for a mob that high lvl .. hell the best decked out melee class cant HIT a mob that much higher let alone kill it ..

Shev KNOWS group xp needs tweaked, that topic has been ground down like nubby teeth .. but consider that it may be a bigger job than the NUMEROUS bandaid fixes that have already been made .. I have never seen xp tables RAISED, they have been lowered several times over the years .. odd how noone complains when they are lowered, only when we feel it needs lowered yet again ..

Condition callers .. I have learned over the years when to mem out and when not to .. if you are missing kills, you are either being greedy and trying to get that last spell memmed or not prioritizing, or just not paying attention yourself to the mob's condition .. Condition callers are a great tool, but do not rely on them entirely .. a little common sense goes a long way

I hope this doesnt seem like a direct personal attack, it is not meant to be .. it is meant maybe to shed some light on some playing style/playing issue questions that have been asked.


i still dont think most of you even undestand the post

fact: if yo uare not casting a spell while xp'ng, you are probably memming out

fact: when memming out, your xp gain is 0


my issue is the massive gap between melee xp potential and caster xp potential in any sized group. there is nothing that was stated here that contradicts that in any way.

yes, people mem out. it's not hard to learn how to do. but while you are memming out, you are gaining 0 xp

while the melee'ers have a steady stream of dmg xp coming in every round - skills used or otherwise.

you - heck nobody - can sit there and tell m e this isnt true.

because of this, most oftentimes casters in small groups or a groups with a well geared rogue where every fight is over in 10 rounds or less, are going to cast at a minimum to reduce mem out times. xp groups arent going to wait for you to mem uip after every kill so you can also maximize your xp gain on every mob, nor should they have to

it's because of this system that pure casters will gain xp at a slower rate.

yes, some of you have a ton of nobits hitter gear for your mages. you are the exceptions and not the rule and i'm sure life is extremely easy for some of you in that regard.

but all i have to do is look at dinok, seref and deler. a group of three players that always play together. whenone goes afk for a few hours, all three are afk for a few hours.

guess what level the poorly geared warrior is in relation to the invoker and cleric?
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 6:49 pm

moritheil wrote:
Corth wrote:Its very easy to exp to level 50 and have no idea how to handle your class in a zone.


Yeah, that's essentially the problem. Maybe we should remove all XP zones. If people had to fight tracking agros for their XP, they'd learn not to wander.


if you tell a new person at the start of a zone not to wander, and they do it anyway, do you really believe the problem was with xp?

the biggest thing anyone who zones has to learn is how to listen, and how to ask questions in tells.

making the game harder to advance in - which again would punish those without all the spanky gear more than anyone else - would not help in improving the pbase size of this game

unless folks dont want that. i mean, you can only take 15 to a zone right?
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Postby Lilira » Sat Oct 27, 2007 8:29 pm

So basically what you are saying is "Let's drop the exp tables to Zero for mages because its not fair that I get zero xp for memming out," despite the levels you are targeting. Cus that's really what it sounds like.

They've been dropped once. These are BANDAIDS not permanent solutions. The permanent solutions will come about with the massive code change that is due in at some point. Basically the flaw in mage XP is that we have to do damage to get damage xp. That won't be fixed until the whole thing is fixed.

If your xp group can't give you the courtesy of a mem every so often to polish up the stuff you couldn't get memmed during fights, find another group. After all, we don't expect warriors to charge into battle at a third of their hps or without buffs, and hitters are usually begging for hastes. Melees need casters as support, that's why they're there.

ts been more and more about XP NOW! More! More! More! Than it has been about the true purpose behind experience... experience. Learning how to work as a team. That is where the mid-game went ladies and gentlemen. Why learn to zone in lower level places when you can rush to 50th for the big stuff?

HOW many people have rogues? Hell I have three.
~\o--Lilira Shadowlyre--o/~

You group-say 'my chars will carry the component on them if I can.'
Inama group-says 'hopefully they'll have some sort of volume discounts on ress items for people like you'
You group-say 'oh? Ya think? *giggle*'
Inama group-says 'they could at least implement frequent dier miles'

Suzalize group-says 'oh, eya's over weight i bet'
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:49 pm

i said nothing of the sort, and i challenge you and anyone else thinking just like you to find and quote me from any post where i said pure casters should get free xp or more xp than anyone else. all ive said was to even the playing field considering the downtime penalties associated with pure casters in groups - which is happening in 2.0. if you people really want this game to flouish you need to stop jumping to conclusions and re-interpreting things written to suit your over-emotional state. lira's post is a prime eample of this - attempting to paraphrase, but what he/she paraphrased was never even stated or implied
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:49 pm

double post. cell phone doesnt like this bbs
Last edited by Teyaha on Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:58 pm, edited 3 times in total.
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:50 pm

tirple post
Last edited by Teyaha on Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 27, 2007 9:56 pm

I do believe 2.0 addresses this, all xp comes from the kill ..this is more than a bandage, more than a temp fix .. until you realize this you will probably be unhappy :) In the meantime I would shelve my casters if I were you and play that rogue some that you mentioned in a previous post
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."



-Italian Proverb
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Sat Oct 27, 2007 11:11 pm

Ambar wrote: if I were you and play that rogue some that you mentioned in a previous post


what post?

that's right, there isnt one.

y'know what - if you people want to fight with me all fu cking day, i'm game. i'm tired of being pushed around on this bbs and in game by people like you, and you will not have the satisfaction of seeing me quit

the rogue i have? is a level 37 orc rogue that's over 400 years old. why is it over 400 years old?

because the last fucking time i played it was august 2001. before i even rolled teyaha

anymore golden nuggets of wisdom from any one else who thinks they are hot shit? i can do this alll day.

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