WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.

racewar/wipe/worldmap/challenge?

yes something like that
16
62%
noway, never
5
19%
not sure
5
19%
 
Total votes: 26
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WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Lohrandelarien » Wed Apr 16, 2008 7:47 am

This is just my reflections over a game I love that is slowly... dying?
_________________________________________________________
Why do we love to still play this game?
- a well written world, well written zones.
- many of us been around for _very_ long.
- friends/chatter.
- questing/zoneing/rp.
- etc.
_________________________________________________________
Why is this mud dying? Why have I quit?
- no challenge.
- its mostly the same.
- constantly doing the same zones.
- only way to improve eq set is by spending
half your awaken time on zones and quest
for an item which everyone else is also workin
on.
- everything is centered around eq/zoning/quest.
- out of boredom u level up another char to 50.
and equip him/her up for what reason.
_________________________________________________________
What would turn me around and fall in love with the game allover?
- drastic changes, restricted racewars/kingdom code.
- world map like duris, sharune etc.
- total pwipe, chars, eq, everything.
- partially quest wipes/changes
- I wanna be a newbie again, I wanna explore - I wanna know nothing
have some challenge.
- more classes, specializations.
- bring mystery back in the game, artis why not? Soulbind em, and make
em need feeding, so those who got an arti gotta play _alot_ or loose it.
or if racewars, lose it in battle.
__________________________________________________________

This is no disrespect to the gods, you're always doing a good job - im
very thankfull for all your work done. But I think this mud need to do
something drastic, become something new but still be the fantastic
same Toril/Sojourn we known for so long.

I've played toril since 95ish, and the first three years was magical. I had
so much fun. None of that magic is there now, 13 years after. There is
no challenge and I just feel its just about zoning same zones, doing same
quest as everyone else, waiting for a tiamat run and leveling up another
character. And im pretty sure thats how most people feel who have left
the mud, and im certain a ton of people who still play feels that way.

Retired until racewars/wipe.
Regards,
John - aka - Glahir, Elusia, Lohrandelarien
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Corth » Wed Apr 16, 2008 2:08 pm

Good post. I particularly enjoyed the 'what would turn it around' section. It would be nice if Shev actually took some of that seriously.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Kifle » Wed Apr 16, 2008 6:38 pm

noob! I thought you died, sir!
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ragorn » Wed Apr 16, 2008 11:55 pm

What would turn me around and fall in love with the game allover?

www.durismud.org

Basically everything you listed already exists on Duris. If you want to play Duris... you're telnetting to the wrong address?
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Lohrandelarien » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:16 am

I wouldnt be posting here if I didnt love this place, I just want it to move forward, bcs I dont feel there's any challenge anymore in anything and its all the same. And I know people feel the same, I just think Toril could use some drastic changes for the better. Havin a world map is an awesome thing, implement restricted racewars with no eq loss and a prestige based fragsystem used for something cool. And things would get exciting again. Theres so much that could be done to appeal a bigger audience, atm Toril doesnt compete with other muds imho. If I was a newbie here, sure I would have a great time, but after 13 yrs.. not much to do. If variety is gone then whats left?

Havin this mud flourish again and get new players, its not impossible. To get a 100-200 online pbase at anytime. Its not impossible. But if we wanna keep mud like its always been, its gonna keep losing players and die. I lost the joy 1-2 years ago, some people lost joy of the mud 5 yrs ago, I guess we all will if we are not open minded and try to bring it forward. I mean what is there to do when u log on? At best u pop 2-3 zones u dont need a single item from just for the heck of it, and items ends up on a secondary or in a bag. Sure its fun zoneing, but for what reason? just for zoneing? I'd love to see Toril get a bit more Dynamical - thats it.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Teyaha » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:23 am

one obstacle to your goal is the very existence of mmorpg's as well as the fact that the genre is being overloaded with new games on a near-quarterly basis

many of our older players have moved on to mmorpg's. some have moved away from online gaming in general after that.

bringing in new players is going to be a difficult task. this game is solid needing only a few tweaks here and there. it is however a grinding game very much like the korean mmorpg's on the market. when you add to that fact that both games are free to play, you need something else to hook new players

that hook can only be the community that already exists. it's akin to how the united states is moving towards a mostly service-oriented industry. you can have 4 or 5 shops in town that sell the same thing at the same price, but the one with the best customer service gets the business

we the players are this games' customer service.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Dalar » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:45 am

Teyaha wrote:one obstacle to your goal is the very existence of mmorpg's as well as the fact that the genre is being overloaded with new games on a near-quarterly basis

many of our older players have moved on to mmorpg's. some have moved away from online gaming in general after that.

bringing in new players is going to be a difficult task. this game is solid needing only a few tweaks here and there. it is however a grinding game very much like the korean mmorpg's on the market. when you add to that fact that both games are free to play, you need something else to hook new players

that hook can only be the community that already exists. it's akin to how the united states is moving towards a mostly service-oriented industry. you can have 4 or 5 shops in town that sell the same thing at the same price, but the one with the best customer service gets the business

we the players are this games' customer service.


I disagree. The immortals are the game's customer service and they have to do their best to attract gamers as well as maintain their current pbase. WoW is a great example.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Teyaha » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:58 am

i agree to a point, but let's be a little realistic here..

the environment that this MUD existed with in the last 90's before mmorpg's was rather unforgiving of new players unless they came in already knowing an established player. if there had been other, equally or better coded options with a more accessible pantheon and even slightly friendlier playerbase that new players were also made aware of, there is a good chance they would have moved there. it's unlikely bridin and i would have stayed very long after we started if it wasnt for Tellaerin (and Bavar giving her a full set of ranger gear)

today we have a more readily accessible and forgiving pantheon of immortals. they might not agree with people want, but they dont cage you or perma-ban you for voicing that opinion anymore.

the OP in this thread wants to bring aspects of the old vicious mud environment back. it could be a case of looking back with rose-colored glasses, or it could be a case of the OP actually thriving and enjoying such an environment.

but as much as the immortals are responsible for providing the game itself and a place to play, the players are equally responsible i should think in teaching new players and enticing them to stay.

WoW is an interesting example. as a game, it's rather shallow. only 8 classes at launch (9 in expansion, but none new) and an end-game raiding scene that, due to the logistics of organizing 40 people that arent totally inept at using a mouse and keyboard only 2% of the population actually saw pre BC isnt going to keep new players. generally what keeps people playing online games is the community - the friends they make, sometimes even the enemies they make, being part of a large guild, being part of a small guild, etc. it's the social aspect.

there are far superior single player rpg's to both toril and WoW if you just look at their solo gameplay possibilities. but it's the communities that set online gaming apart from simple rpg's like Oblivion, Mass Effect, Final Fantasy, Daggerfall, etc. Heck, just look at Eve. here we have a sandbox game with full on free for all pvp with nasty consequences in lost time if you die akin to duris, with a (near) fully player driven economy. the pve game is laughable at best with the devs being rather lazy as happens with pvp games - pvp is used as an excuse to not spend time on mob ai. but eve is still going strong for a small independent after almost 5 years and is growing, not shrinking, monthly. whether or not you or i like the underlying game is moot because people are not staying solely based on the game mechanics but more on the groups of friends they make

so while it's easy to push off the responsibility entirely on the forgers and gods, we the players must take equal responsibility that when we do get new blood we make sure that their level of confusion when learning the game is as small as possible. obviousl i dont mean gearing them up on day one, but making sure we answer their questions without sarcasm and attempting to include them in our activities so they can see the same game we see
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Lohrandelarien » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:15 am

Teyaha - what do you love about toril atm? what keeps you playing? whats your challenge? To me its all a bore, and all the same, every time one logs on.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Teyaha » Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:46 am

i enjoy my necro, but that's about it

you are right it's a bore to us - we've been in here a decade or more. how many of you played WoW and got bored within a year? two years? 3?

of course tehre needs to be things to keep the old blood going but i was only addressing the new player aspect. the fact the game has had little new blood in recent eyars is what has hindered it. people move on from these games on a regular basis. they move to a diff game, or they just move on. in order to keep the game alive you need new blood to replace the old. this is what we are lacking at the moment.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Gormal » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:01 am

Those are insightful and well-constructed suggestions on how to fix the MUD's problems, Teyaha. Good work.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Raiwen » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:56 am

If only we had an ice berry eat contest on a semi-annual basis. THEN! The new players would just flock.

I could post stuff to attempt to convince Teyaha of the wisdom of this thread, but it would be pointless. At this point, if you think XYZ code and ABC zone will fix the pbase, then you just don't get it, and you never will get it.

(sigh, let me try)

This game used to provide us a shot of GamerCrack(tm). That's gone. It needs to come back. People need to be addicted again, and you're not going to do that by building a Mud like a clock, winding it up and hoping it lasts another 10 years.

Staff: visibility, participation, policies that promote change in an organized, consistent manner. God turn over (mia gods get replaced using a fair and documented policy - preferably in a timely manner).

Enumerating changes and wishes will not ultimate prolong the mud. You need REAL change. Fundamental change. It has to transcend the changes and the wishes. This is a game of people - not of code and data.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to throw 2.0 under the metaphorical bus. Far from it. From my 20 some odd years of coding as a professional and hobbiest I know how an application can grow organically. Bits and pieces here and there, different coding styles, blackbox data structures and arcane dark coding magic. Sometimes you need to start from scratch, take a few steps back and recreate your application's foundation. Put in a framework in order to help you go forward. I get it. I understand it.

Yet, this isn't some word processor or booking engine. It's a community.

I guess what irks me about all the talk about 2.0 is this:

It's great that all this extra content and framework is going in, but I still gotta know - outside of the code and content, what is the staff prepared to do to engage the community (hopefully in methodical, documented, and highly visible ways)?
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:35 am

Teyaha wrote:you are right it's a bore to us - we've been in here a decade or more. how many of you played WoW and got bored within a year? two years? 3?

I have more time /played on my WoW Shaman (who is now my secondary character) than I did on every character I ever had on every incarnation of Sojourn/Toril combined.

Any other rhetorical arguments I can smash while I'm at it?
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Dalar » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:41 am

Teyaha wrote:i enjoy my necro, but that's about it

you are right it's a bore to us - we've been in here a decade or more. how many of you played WoW and got bored within a year? two years? 3?

of course tehre needs to be things to keep the old blood going but i was only addressing the new player aspect. the fact the game has had little new blood in recent eyars is what has hindered it. people move on from these games on a regular basis. they move to a diff game, or they just move on. in order to keep the game alive you need new blood to replace the old. this is what we are lacking at the moment.


I only got bored of WoW because I got a new job and they weren't going to release the expansion for more than a year. New blood is difficult to bring in when most of the old players don't have much to do.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Teyaha » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:35 am

Ragorn wrote:
Teyaha wrote:you are right it's a bore to us - we've been in here a decade or more. how many of you played WoW and got bored within a year? two years? 3?

I have more time /played on my WoW Shaman (who is now my secondary character) than I did on every character I ever had on every incarnation of Sojourn/Toril combined.

Any other rhetorical arguments I can smash while I'm at it?


problem here is you didnt play sojourn 3 very long. technically, you quit right after sojourn 2.

i personally have a level 70 horde side of all 9 classes. i really dont want to add up their total played time, that would probably depress me.

WoW faces the same problem any mud does. the difference is they have a multi-billion dollar ayear unit churning out updates and new content (sometimes lots, sometimes meager) every two or three months. this mud doesnt have that - so people get bored of what is there and move on.

not long after naxx went in a lot of my raid guild quit the game waiting for the expansion. they werent interested in naxx so much after we did two wings the frist week and realized this wasnt going to hold us over until the end of the year, and the news was already out that a good portion of it would be replaced by 70 with blues. so they left because of.....? that's right, boredom and the lack of content

can you imagine the landscape in the game today if arena rewards never went above season 1? if they didnt add dailies and netherdrake mounts? if they didnt add ssc, bt and the sunwell all within 15 months of BC? take all of that out of the game and then consider what would keep you playing. in all likelyhood i would be the people you know that are likewise still playing.

lord of the rings online had a massive surge of initial subscriptions to the tune of over 500,000 in the frist month. after month two they lost nearly 30% - due the game having absolutely nothing to do at 50. even at that time (i was on their invitation-only internal test server which was a good 4 patches ahead of live) there was only one new bit of endgame content planned. people moved on because the level grind was relatively easy and they got bored (those that stuck with it passed the initial free month anyway)
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Teyaha » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:36 am

Dalar wrote:
Teyaha wrote:i enjoy my necro, but that's about it

you are right it's a bore to us - we've been in here a decade or more. how many of you played WoW and got bored within a year? two years? 3?

of course tehre needs to be things to keep the old blood going but i was only addressing the new player aspect. the fact the game has had little new blood in recent eyars is what has hindered it. people move on from these games on a regular basis. they move to a diff game, or they just move on. in order to keep the game alive you need new blood to replace the old. this is what we are lacking at the moment.


I only got bored of WoW because I got a new job and they weren't going to release the expansion for more than a year. New blood is difficult to bring in when most of the old players don't have much to do.



this is very true, but what can they add that would get the old players back at this point? this may be a case of 'too many chefs'
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Teyaha » Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:44 am

Raiwen wrote:If only we had an ice berry eat contest on a semi-annual basis. THEN! The new players would just flock.

I could post stuff to attempt to convince Teyaha of the wisdom of this thread, but it would be pointless. At this point, if you think XYZ code and ABC zone will fix the pbase, then you just don't get it, and you never will get it.

(sigh, let me try)

This game used to provide us a shot of GamerCrack(tm). That's gone. It needs to come back. People need to be addicted again, and you're not going to do that by building a Mud like a clock, winding it up and hoping it lasts another 10 years.

Staff: visibility, participation, policies that promote change in an organized, consistent manner. God turn over (mia gods get replaced using a fair and documented policy - preferably in a timely manner).

Enumerating changes and wishes will not ultimate prolong the mud. You need REAL change. Fundamental change. It has to transcend the changes and the wishes. This is a game of people - not of code and data.

Don't misunderstand me, I'm not trying to throw 2.0 under the metaphorical bus. Far from it. From my 20 some odd years of coding as a professional and hobbiest I know how an application can grow organically. Bits and pieces here and there, different coding styles, blackbox data structures and arcane dark coding magic. Sometimes you need to start from scratch, take a few steps back and recreate your application's foundation. Put in a framework in order to help you go forward. I get it. I understand it.

Yet, this isn't some word processor or booking engine. It's a community.

I guess what irks me about all the talk about 2.0 is this:

It's great that all this extra content and framework is going in, but I still gotta know - outside of the code and content, what is the staff prepared to do to engage the community (hopefully in methodical, documented, and highly visible ways)?


lets do keep in mind the OP asked for the following:

What would turn me around and fall in love with the game allover?
- drastic changes, restricted racewars/kingdom code.

how many of you want pvp in any form with such a small pbase to begin with? not to mention, thre is already duris. not every online game MUST have pvp

- world map like duris, sharune etc.

having only played duris for a few days back in '98 i have no idea what this is referring to

- total pwipe, chars, eq, everything.

this has been brought up before, and the consensus is that we would lose even more players if there were a pwipe. at least we'd lose the older players who no longer have the time nor the inclination to rebuild for a 4th or 5th time

- partially quest wipes/changes

i dont actually understand that one too much


- I wanna be a newbie again, I wanna explore - I wanna know nothing
have some challenge.

in order to know nothing about a game you've been playing you'd either have to be gone for a long time while it was under massive rehauling, or play an entirely different game. the newbie experience is fleeting. but if anyone wants to be a naked character again, they can by rolling one.


- more classes, specializations.

more variety is always great, but can also be a problem when the pbase gets too small


- bring mystery back in the game, artis why not? Soulbind em, and make
em need feeding, so those who got an arti gotta play _alot_ or loose it.
or if racewars, lose it in battle.


and who determines which artifact goes to whom? thre would be perceived god favoritism by the have-nots, and would be counter productive to a more open and engaging staff.



those are just my opinions of course, but you are both advocating for an entirely different game on one hand and duris on the other.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby dem » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:32 am

I feel exactly like you do Lohrandelarien, only difference is that I lost interest in Duris. And I can totaly understand that your having a blast on Duris since I'm having a real blast here on Toril. I feel like a total newbie and I'm really enjoying it. I think that once we (as players) cant see any more challange in the game it's time to move on. And hopefully come back again in a couple of years like I did.


/Koxa, Genlir
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Gormal » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:58 am

Refreshing the challenge has always been the key to keeping and recruiting players. A game without wipes, without PvP, and without a consistent influx of content is never going to provide that. 2.0 offers the staff an opportunity to (re)introduce all three of these things, and I hope for the sake of the game that they do.

See how I don't have to ramble forever about my MMO philosophies and tout my supreme experience?
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Lohrandelarien » Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:06 pm

Teyaha - - -

I dont get your negative approach on this. You think you know what everything will lead to before its even tried out.

I dont wish Toril to turn into Duris. Duris is nice in many ways, but Toril has always had more 'depth'.

Thats what I love about Toril. But I'd love to see us keep Toril like it is in 2.0 - AND bring in restricted PvP - AND -
a world map.

Ok Teyaha - this arti thing confuses u, bcs u think the only way to get an arti is if its godgiven. Lol. there are simple
solutions to this. Let the arti pop in a zone rareload, and someone can get it. Make the arti have a timer, so it cant
stay on a player forever, if the player doesnt zone or kill other players. Or if yer gone for 1 week, its gone from your
character. Duris have this, but their system could still use some tweaking.

World map. Its a great thing, and it enchances the experience and really brings another dimension to the game,
and its not just Duris that have this, many other great muds out there use it and its really cool.

With restricted PvP you could still keep toril much like it already is, but add another dimension for players who dont
enjoy doing Izans for the 12325 time just to then move on to Seelie and do that for the 21414 time.

Atm this mud is solely relying on its old players. Most part of the Pbase is old players.

And another thing Teyaha and others posting here - If you didnt know, there is muds that charge players for playing.
That have a pbase of 500-1000 players a day. This is no fricken fantasy. I wouldnt wanna see Toril to turn into a
pay to play mud. never. But its not impossible to get a pbase to grow. So dont be negative and start to bring up different
scenarios how the mud would die if there was some more 'drastic' changes if you want to call it that.

And its not a matter of changing muds if the mud doesnt suit you - it would be in everyones intrest to have a mud that fits
EVERYONE. Thats how you get a pbase to grow. And yes, adding more spiffy code and making the game more a variation to
everyone WILL make a pbase grow.

If you didnt know its all about GAMEPLAY, and PLAYABILITY. That why EverQuest crushed FantasyOnline?(if that was the name forgot)
and why WoW totally crushed EverQuest. They brought something new and developted the GAMEPLAY.

Im not saying we need to add loads of code and rebuild the whole mud, no thanks I love Toril the way it is and the
foundation its built upon. But i'd love the game to develop something new and exciting, move somewhat forward
to please both new and old players and hopefully bring more players here.

If Toril was to announce:
+kingdom code
+pvp
+worldmap
+artis

I betcha the pbase would rise.

Anything in life gets boring unless u add some spice to it - relations, jobs, school, entertainment, games whatever u name it.

AND AS I SAID BEFORE - I DONT WANT TORIL TO CHANGE - I WANT TORIL TO DEVELOP FURTHER!

....
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:04 pm

World map is never going to happen. The implementation code took the Duris staff over a year of dedicated labor, plus the effort that had to go into recoding a linear world as a 2d plane. A world map on Toril is a pipe dream, and there's no sense in even suggesting it be done.

Open PvP is never going to happen. The skills and spells you see in the game aren't balanced for players. In order for PvP to work on any meaningful level, every damaging and healing spell in the game would require an overhaul, complete with balance testing and tweaks. Not only are the gods not going to do all that work, but the PLAYERS aren't going to tolerate it either. The first time someone insta-dies to a double backstab crit, they'll be all over the forums demanding that the game go back to PvE only.

Without PvP or regular pwipes, you can't have artifacts. The players would never tolerate Gormal being given a godhammer that lets him solo dragons. Without a way to keep artifacts circulating around the MUD, there's no satisfactory way to implement them.

The other thing is, THERE IS ALREADY A GAME WITH THOSE FEATURES.

If you want to play WoW, go play WoW. Don't spam the Everquest forums about how the devs should implement battlegrounds, flying mounts, and soulbound epic loot.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Lohrandelarien » Thu Apr 17, 2008 2:35 pm

Well...

I dont believe for a second it takes 1 year to code that.
I think thats total BS. It all depends how good and affective
the coder is.

Im sure a good and dedicated coder will do that in a month.

And balancing sure it would probably take some time. Can be done.

But if this mud doesnt offer something more than zone/quest to people
it will die out. 2.0 wont change much without a wipe. A lvl 50 char means
nothing, its the eq overload that is the problem, people dont need anything
anylonger for the most.

I admire Lilithelle for her dedication of the game. Without her, and a few of
the key leaders in Triterium, this mud would be dead in a couple of months.

This mud has lost player more and more over the years bcs people isnt
challenged anymore.

And for the arti part, there is loads of artis in the game now.
They are called: Tiamat Toptier, Khanjari and BS swords.

And when you got those items. What shall you do with them? Do zones for
eq for your secondaries? Since most players of the mud is stacked, this is
the case for the most part. I cant believe people still find joy in that.

And if you dont, if u do quests instead - most of them doesnt reward nearly
as much as they should, if you consider all those countless amounts of time
spent trying to get hold of these rares and items - in such a dull way killing
tons of the same mobs _or_ checking a rareload 15 times a boot. Whats the
joy.

Yes Ive been playing Duris some of late, and I like some of their features.
But just as plain that Toril is, so is Duris and I will soon tire. A mix of the
both MUDs would most likely fit more people people and would probably
also attract more people and give more variation in gameplay.

But sure, if you want Toril to be like it always been, do same zones over and
over and just quest things everyone else is questing, sure. I just find the
joy in that anymore.

Im not flaming the staff or blaming them for anything, im thankfull they got
the energy to keep pushing this train. But if you guys want this mud to
prosper, I dont think 2.0 will change anything without anything of the
below..

A. Wipe
B. Racewar
C. Worldmap
D. Kingdom code
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:20 pm

Lohrandelarien wrote:Well...

I dont believe for a second it takes 1 year to code that.
I think thats total BS. It all depends how good and affective
the coder is.

Im sure a good and dedicated coder will do that in a month.

You going to do it, then?

If not you, then who?

It's not like Toril has a staff of active and dedicated coders who work 40+ hours a week on implementing code. Shit gets done around here when people get a chance. What might only take 250 or 300 hours of coder labor could easily take a year of realtime, and that's ASSUMING that someone's putting in an hour a day.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Sarvis » Thu Apr 17, 2008 5:02 pm

Ragorn wrote:Without PvP or regular pwipes, you can't have artifacts. The players would never tolerate Gormal being given a godhammer that lets him solo dragons. Without a way to keep artifacts circulating around the MUD, there's no satisfactory way to implement them.



Why would artifacts need to be so powerful? They could just be _unique_ and maybe just a tiny bit better than normal items and it'd be worthwhile.

Lohrandelarien wrote:This mud has lost player more and more over the years bcs people isnt
challenged anymore.


I just don't think that's true. There are myriad reasons for people to leave, lack of time, their friends have left, they've gotten bored of the grind, tired if waiting at 3w for a group... etc.

I don't even think most of that is a problem, it's likely _natural_ for a MUDs population to drift away. The problem is that we're not doing much to retain <b>new</b> players.

I actually rolled up a couple new characters recently, and was reminded of both the things I like about the game and it's major weaknesses.

Scardale is a pretty nice zone, but after 3-4 play sessions and two characters I started getting tired. It rapidly got to be grinding exp, most of the time without even a group since there are no real newbies around. Even when I tried to do quests I'd have trouble because the quest items only load on boot. I'm not sure why humans didn't have ears and priests didn't have their holy symbols, but it rendered quests unsolvable and took away that avenue of possible interest. (Actually I know why, but actual new players wouldn't.)

Compare that to WoW, where immediately on starting you are given two quests. In fact, as far as I got with Wow every step was quest driven. You never had to grind exp unless you wanted to, there was always some story to follow or some bit of plot. That alone drew me in and kept me playing.

Making the "beginning" more quest oriented, more hand-holdy and, yes, more interesting is the biggest thing the MUD needs to concentrate on. There are tons of choices for games out there, and TorilMUD is a good one. But we need to motivate people to stick around to see that, rather than going off to the latest free web based game, free MMORPG or commercial MMORPG because all they got here was exp grinding.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ragorn » Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:03 pm

Sarvis wrote:Why would artifacts need to be so powerful? They could just be _unique_ and maybe just a tiny bit better than normal items and it'd be worthwhile.

It doesn't matter how powerful they are. Power isn't the question, trophy value is the question.

If you doubt people will bitch about unique items, even ones that aren't powerful, go find the thread about Gormal's crown.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Raiwen » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:32 pm

Sarvis wrote:Even when I tried to do quests I'd have trouble because the quest items only load on boot. I'm not sure why humans didn't have ears and priests didn't have their holy symbols, but it rendered quests unsolvable and took away that avenue of possible interest. (Actually I know why, but actual new players wouldn't.)

I agree with this. The item you end up questing is great for low lvlers. If highbies want to spam quest it, let them. it'd be a waste of time considering all the other containers in the game that are better for high lvlers. However, lowbies? It's a great item, and also a quest someone new can easily understand and complete.

Make all that crap repop. It's useless to new players if it doesn't.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Kifle » Fri Apr 18, 2008 2:58 pm

Ragorn wrote:
Sarvis wrote:Why would artifacts need to be so powerful? They could just be _unique_ and maybe just a tiny bit better than normal items and it'd be worthwhile.

It doesn't matter how powerful they are. Power isn't the question, trophy value is the question.

If you doubt people will bitch about unique items, even ones that aren't powerful, go find the thread about Gormal's crown.


The argument over Gormal's crown was more an argument over semantics and whether or not it was promised they would never be in the game again. I think if it were stipulated that artifacts would be allowed, the argument would have taken a different route if it happened at all.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:08 pm

Kifle wrote:The argument over Gormal's crown was more an argument over semantics and whether or not it was promised they would never be in the game again. I think if it were stipulated that artifacts would be allowed, the argument would have taken a different route if it happened at all.



Ragorn is probably right.

The thing is, there will always be people who bitch... no matter which way you go. The only real question is: Would artifacts draw in more players than they'd piss off?
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Corth » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:37 pm

Artifacts go to the OP's most important point.. if the gods want the mud to succeed they must bring mystery back to the game.

The game mechanics are very bland. Sorry, its true. Protect the tanks long enough so the damage dealers can kill the bad guys. Different wrinkles here and there, but ultimately its the same basic idea again and again.

However, when I started playing, there were true legends here. There was a zone that everyone was too scared to try (roots) for real fear of EQ loss. There were players with artifacts that gave them abilities well beyond the rest of us.. and all of us strived to obtain stature in the game that would justify our own super powers. There were immorts that you could get real favors from if you got on their good side. Not just information. It was a true social gaming experience. And the stories. These werent stories made up by some chick on the bbs who never zoned with the hardcore mudders. These were real stories about the guy who disintegrated doombringer! Oops! Stories of incredible CR's (and lost corpses) from lands full of dragons, that most of us would never get a chance to even see. Stories of epic guild campaigns. Stuff that was incredible.. and really happened! And made you think maybe one day YOU could get into a real story.

There was mystery, legends, lore, and all the things that made the game transcend its limited mechanics. Now its just a hack n' slash with a slowly dying community. Thats why I endorse artifacts, politics, and god favoritism.
Last edited by Corth on Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:44 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ambar » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:41 pm

Scardale items pop more often than on boot .. They dont drop each time but they do drop and I have no idea on percentage, just making the comment.

People haven't hung out at 3w for a couple of years either .. How long has it been since you really played? Heheh as a casual mudder even I know that :P

Artis wouldn't be bad, there are people who still play who deserve them. Hell I am sure the leaders who play are grownup and fair enough to decide who to pass them out to, suggesting that artis for all classes would be available. A feed timer that requires blood of a certain level mob to feed off within a certain timeframe would be cool, so that people couldn't hang onto their artis by killing TP mobs or something.
Last edited by Ambar on Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:47 pm

Ambar wrote:Scardale items pop more often than on boot .. They dont drop each time but they do drop .. they arent rare by any means, they just dont drop each time .. no idea on percentage, just wanted to point out they do drop


I spent a good two hours killing priests for holy symbols and not getting them...

People haven't hung out at 3w for a couple of years either .. How long has it been since you really played? Heheh as a casual mudder even I know that :P


I played last week, silly. Stuck in Scardale though, so no 3w for me...
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ambar » Fri Apr 18, 2008 3:50 pm

Good lord give me the chance to edit my friggin post before quoting me, dizamn
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Sarvis » Fri Apr 18, 2008 4:10 pm

What fun would that be? ;)

As for artis "feeding" it would certainly be appropriate for some, but might be a little wierd to have a Paladin holy blade or something like that require regular feedings.

Another option is to give negatives to artifacts so that they aren't entirely too uber, sort of like the Ring in LoTR. Sure it's great to have a ring of invis, but having to deal with ringwraiths every time you use it is a bit of a hassle...
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Teyaha » Fri Apr 18, 2008 5:08 pm

would there likewise be a stipulation should the artifact be awarded to someone who came back, got it, and then quit again not long after receiving it? like, should they be required to remain active and if not active the artifact is revoked and rewarded to someone else?
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Ambar » Fri Apr 18, 2008 8:59 pm

That is what feeding is .. You have to kill things within a time period in order to retain the artifact, whether it be a weapon, held item, whatever ..

It's all speculation anyway :) Just kind of *nice to think* about kind of stuff.

It'd be funny to see who got those items :)
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby flib » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:01 am

we all get jaded.. at some point.. well almost all of us.. there's a few exceptions I won't name that seem to be stalwart in their occupation of toril, but honestly, I know I have. I've taken many extended breaks from toril, the thing i've seen though about people who do that (and many do) is that most of us come back. I know for me there's something that this game offers that none other do, i'm not completely sure what it is but there's definetely something. The issue with bringing in racewars is that it's what made toril/duris different in the first place.

Back in the day, toril/duris was one working entity but cython and all his minions decided they wanted to go down a more pvp based path while lloth/mystra wanted to stay more pve based, so the two sides split into what we now know as toril and duris. The players who wanted pve went here and the people who wanted pvp went to duris.. so forcing pvp on a mud that is formed on the platform of pve doesn't make sense, at least not to me


. Maps would be cool, but the issue with those is theyd fundamentally have to change every room in the game besides zones to make it work. As with most areas on a graphical map the room dirs are n,s,e,w allowing players to go in any direction. Toril on the other hand has paths.. so in bringing in maps you would have to change the entire structure of our current land system.. which at least to me sounds like a daunting task.

and ya, I have my 70's on wow as well :P but WoW is the same way kinda, you end up running the same instances week after week with no real variety around.. t w th fr kara sat gruuls sun eye or w/e you do pretty much the same content every week.. it's fun for the first few times you try it, but as with everything repitition leads to boredom.

what do I honestly think.. will fix torilmud.. and make it how it was in the heydeys of 1996-2000.. nothing. 2.0 is going to bring in cool stuff, that is going to appease people for a certain amount of time, but after some time people will start getting bored, and want more changes and this and that and whatever. there's nothing that is going to make torilmud last forever, in saying that I'm not saying there's not some stuff I wouldn't love to see imp'd player controlled ships, (love the idea of artifacts with timers btw, I posted it on here somewhere heh) some other stuff I won't list. If you look at duris's last pwipe for an example I think you'll see my point. On the first day of it (I think it was january 5'th something like that) there was 120 people logged onto the good side alone. 3 months later, theres 12-30 max. people get bored easily, they go do other stuff. Toril is the one place though, that I always come back to, because I love it.. I hope it does last another ten years.. but i don't know.. alot of us will be in our 40's and 50's by then hah! could you see yourself with like your grandkids? Grampa! what are you doing?? well... i'm playing toril kid's.. yikes haha.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Corth » Sat Apr 19, 2008 5:21 pm

Holy wall of text. Sorry, I don't even start reading when I see something like that.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 19, 2008 6:21 pm

Corth wrote:Holy wall of text. Sorry, I don't even start reading when I see something like that.



Sheesh... picky much? Can't read posts that are broken up by quotes. Can't read posts that aren't broken up. Are you never happy?


/kidding
//didn't read that either...
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Gormal » Sat Apr 19, 2008 9:54 pm

He's not being picky, he's being reasonable. If you can't even format your post so its not a visual train wreck, there's little chance that you're smart enough to say something in it that matters.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 19, 2008 10:19 pm

Gormal wrote:He's not being picky, he's being reasonable. If you can't even format your post so its not a visual train wreck, there's little chance that you're smart enough to say something in it that matters.


The question is: If you can't even read the last two lines of someone's post, should anyone have any reason to listen to you?
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Gormal » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:16 pm

I didn't use your name for a reason: its a general statement to people who post giant blocks of unformatted text, or use the 100-quote approach.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Sarvis » Sat Apr 19, 2008 11:51 pm

So when I said "picky much" and you said "he's not being picky" it wasn't a reply to me?

Really?



Really?

Huh.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby flib » Sun Apr 20, 2008 4:13 am

for f'ks sakes.. cry much? I edited it.. enjoy.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Shevarash » Thu May 22, 2008 6:08 am

If you want to post off-topic funny pictures, go to the General Discussion forum.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby lothos » Thu May 22, 2008 11:16 am

Just thought I'd ad my perspective here since I rejoined Toril after being gone for many many years. The MMO scene is not for longevity in my opinion. Every game since EQ has felt the need to incorporate grind machines of raiding and leveling nitemare. For the most part there is little social interaction compared to the likes of UO. Everything that UO did right other followers solemnly swore to never repeat because they didn't and still don't understand. Player housing within the game world/map just next door to your favorite dungeon. Massive item hording in the bank and your house and your guild house(s). Items meaning next to nil and those accursed recall runes/books. God, imagine travel being easy actually made it fun for people to pop online for short bursts to play. That's the type of people you should be aiming at catering to. The short time window people that are longing for social aspects. You'll never compete with MMO's on a content providing basis, so aim for quality instead IMO.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Venlarin » Thu May 22, 2008 5:41 pm

Flib I am a grandpa and enjoy playing.

I agree whith Lohrandelarien that the game needs to improve. I would like it to be something I can recommend to my grandkids in a few years. Disney or Toril? At present the game is not kid friendly and it needs to be if it is to grow.

There is no need to sweat attracting 500 or so players here. There are 5 billion people on the planet and Toril needs 500 not 5000. The percentage given the age range of present players seems small. For the record I was 62 on May 8 so factor that in the calculation.

Instead of complaining we could form the ultimate zoning group. 15 player to brainstorm how to improve the game. At the worst pointed bitching instead of general bitching. The upside is maybe some suggestions could be developed that would result in a more enjoyable experience.

Repetition is not always boring. There are repetitive aspects to many activities in real and not many complaints.The challenge is to broaden the game so there are more alternatives. how can we make what we are doing fun and challenging.

Some things that may make a difference:
Quests for low levels that are fairly straight forward.

Ability to make and keep notes in game, including mapping, so that you can keep track of various encounters. (adventurers notebook).

Small changes to quests so copying quest and exchanging notes would become useless. There could be three or more paths to completion and players would have differnt tagged paths to end. This would end certain aspects of the current boredom since wuest notes could not be exchanged reliably.

Social areas where players can gather in realistic comfort to chat etc. This would allow adult and general gathering areas to be implemented. Anyone using adult language in a general area would be silenced. (I vetted toril before my teenage son could play 15 years ago. It would not have passed today).

Wargames to train people in leading groups of various size. This would not be pvp but it could be a close approximation and there could be rewards ather than bragging rights for the top leaders. These games could be held at regular intervals and be somewhat like the board version of ad&d as some mobs could be manipulated by or be actual players.

Those are some of my ideas.
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby flib » Thu May 22, 2008 10:38 pm

sheesh shev :P was that nsfw? it was a kid eating some fries..
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Gormal » Thu May 22, 2008 10:50 pm

NSFT: Anything that could ever possibly be construed as offensive ever.
flib
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby flib » Fri May 23, 2008 5:07 am

not trying to take over the meaning of the post but, I can understand that you don't want offensive lude photographs and extended bickering on these boards. I actually quite agree with your stand on that stuff. But, taking my post off because you couldn't see the humor in it, or just because you didn't like it is kind of stifling mine or anyone elses creative freedom if they decide to make a harmless joke on the topic at hand.

It's your board, I get it but give me a break. So from now on every single post has to be on the exact topic at hand and if we attempt to make a bit of harmless light of it (I don't see how 2 kids who are rather chubby eating at mcdonalds is nsfw) it's taken down as if it were a nude picture or bickering, that's a bit excessive don't you think?
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Shevarash
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Re: WHY THE GAME IS SLOWLY DYING - AND WHAT WOULD HELP (MY OPIN)

Postby Shevarash » Fri May 23, 2008 1:52 pm

Flib, there was nothing offensive about your picture. I removed it from this thread because it was off-topic and it encouraged some rude replies. The 2.0 forum is heavily moderated for off-topic content in an effort to keep it as a tightly focused forum for diseeminating information about 2.0.

I moved the thread here because on further consideration, the whole thing was off-topic and shouldn't be subjected tot the 2.0 forum policies. Sorry for the confusion.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD

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