Evilrace/Goodrace

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Gerad2
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Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gerad2 » Wed May 21, 2008 9:06 pm

LOL come on guys; aint it time? I seriously can't believe you still divide in half a player base of like 200 people.

Obviously the races were made to function independently; I ask you: what could go so utterly and seriously wrong if a psi and a shaman happened to group or something? The game has been 'being balanced' for nigh on like 15 years and it's probably time to admit that it won't ever be perfect or close. Wait for Toril 2? Great idea. We'll get right on that.

Racewars was over when sojourn 2 left; there isn't even a PvP mechanic to speak of really;

Fire and brimstone coming down from the skies! Rivers and seas boiling! Forty years of darkness! Earthquakes! volcanoes! The dead rising from the grave! Human sacrifice, dogs and cats living together... mass hysteria!

That is not going to happen. Change the group code and let em' have at it for a week.

I realize the facade of control is important, but you need to cave on this one and let everyone play and have fun together without ignoring half of the content in the game.

You need to do that before you do anything.

Gerad <3
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Teyaha » Wed May 21, 2008 11:57 pm

good luck. this should have been done a year ago. it's doubtful it will ever happen.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby spunionring » Thu May 22, 2008 12:13 am

agree
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby fobble » Thu May 22, 2008 5:04 pm

This is not allowed. Otherwise all elven tanks will be replaced by troll tanks*!!!! How dare you.




*Exception for fire zones
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu May 22, 2008 7:31 pm

It has also been brought up that we just delete all the evilraces and convert their classes to goodrace. A better alternative in my opinion.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Raiwen » Thu May 22, 2008 8:01 pm

there isn't a class that sucks as bad as squids to convert them to!
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby flib » Thu May 22, 2008 10:25 pm

I don't want my drow to have to pick a goodrace to be, I like him being drow. If I wanted a grey elf I would have made one, I didn't so don't try and make me switch.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Thu May 22, 2008 11:51 pm

You know I like the idea of playing Yuan-ti, drow and all the other evil races they are fun and a definite change from the standard grey elves and humans that everyone seems to play (with the occasional gnome). I dont like the idea of limiting the choice of races more. Getting rid of evils is not a good idea. I can understand getting rid of the race barrier for grouping but not throwing them outta the game completely that makes no sense to me at all.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Botef » Fri May 23, 2008 2:20 pm

Just make grouping based on alignment and be done with it. Lichs shouldn't group with Paladins anyways, and an evil dwarf that gets owned by his own guards should be able to group with a duergar!
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Disoputlip » Sat May 24, 2008 4:14 am

Warrior is one class where trolls could take over it all.

But I think cleric is the other. Yuan is so much better cleric than anything else. If I had known that back when I rolled I would never have picked Duergar.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Sat May 24, 2008 9:35 am

Yuanti has no weakness other than lack of a few eq slots as far as clerics go, so they really reign supreme.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Lilira » Sat May 24, 2008 2:44 pm

Adriorn Darkcloak wrote:It has also been brought up that we just delete all the evilraces and convert their classes to goodrace. A better alternative in my opinion.


Um. No. If I want to play an evil race, I should be able to play evil race. I have an orc bchanter for a reason. Same with a drow rogue. Cus I want to play EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL, and I don't just mean alignment.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Sat May 24, 2008 6:45 pm

So you want to sit in DK and whine about evils not playing until Wednesdays?
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sat May 24, 2008 11:14 pm

flib wrote:I don't want my drow to have to pick a goodrace to be, I like him being drow. If I wanted a grey elf I would have made one, I didn't so don't try and make me switch.


Lilira wrote:Um. No. If I want to play an evil race, I should be able to play evil race. I have an orc bchanter for a reason. Same with a drow rogue. Cus I want to play EEEEEEEEEEEEEVIL, and I don't just mean alignment.


That's fine, but then don't ask to be able to group with goodraces also. They're monsters for a reason, and this is an FR-influenced mud.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gerad2 » Sun May 25, 2008 6:43 am

You guys are missing the point... the BASIC point... the alpha and the omega...

You have two teams. You are not playing against each other in any way. You realize neither team has enough people on it to keep going, so you make ONE TEAM.

I'm not talking about converting classes or anything, just let ANYONE group with ANYONE as they so desire.

You are missing the singular point of the game - that it is played with other people. If that's not the point, then welcome back to Zork.

That point having been made, you should do things that make it easy to play with others and well, LET THEM!
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby flib » Sun May 25, 2008 10:45 am

Gerad2 wrote:You guys are missing the point... the BASIC point... the alpha and the omega...

You have two teams. You are not playing against each other in any way. You realize neither team has enough people on it to keep going, so you make ONE TEAM.

I'm not talking about converting classes or anything, just let ANYONE group with ANYONE as they so desire.

You are missing the singular point of the game - that it is played with other people. If that's not the point, then welcome back to Zork.

That point having been made, you should do things that make it easy to play with others and well, LET THEM!



I just don't know about straight breaking the barrier like that though, how non rp is that? Having trolls and gnomes in the same group where the troll isn't trying to devour the gnome in 25 different horrendous ways just isn't natural.

I think the main problem is that it's one of the focal things that makes this mud what it is, Choosing your race is pretty much the most important step into starting a new character, what innates you want vs issues of difficult hometowns. There'd be no real challenge if you can go everywhere and do everything, which would have to come after that decision, you couldn't have seperate hometowns, trolls could go to wd and gnomes could go to dk. It would sugar coat the mud which we really don't need I think. If you straight up change it, it just won't be the same, alot of the challenge would be gone.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Teyaha » Sun May 25, 2008 2:18 pm

that really isnt it flib

if people really wanted the challenge, they would play evils. many of the goodies there now started sojourn 3 as evils.

the 'challenges' are mostly just annoyances. having to have a squid to move around jot grid when you have dayblind chars is more an annoyance than a challenge, as just one example.

the real issue is - how many people saw that evils were dying or dead and simply didnt have it in t hem to roll a goodie, so moved on? and if there are more than a handful, would dropping this barrier be enough for th em to want to play again?

it still wouldnt change the fact that moving a group with drow in it around daylight places is slower t han to not bother at all.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun May 25, 2008 4:40 pm

I think it's Gerad that's missing the point. Evilraces are more powerful than goodraces. They have dayblind as a way to balance them against the goodraces. If you let both group, you immediately eliminate half the races from being picked, since, as others have pointed out, who the hell wouldn't pick a yuan cleric, a troll tank, etc. Add to that the fact that the mud has an RP-FR background. As it stands, they already let neutral humans group with evilraces to let them mix a little more. Lilithelle has been zoning with evils. Seriously...
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby flib » Mon May 26, 2008 6:22 am

Teyaha wrote:that really isnt it flib

if people really wanted the challenge, they would play evils. many of the goodies there now started sojourn 3 as evils.

the 'challenges' are mostly just annoyances. having to have a squid to move around jot grid when you have dayblind chars is more an annoyance than a challenge, as just one example.

the real issue is - how many people saw that evils were dying or dead and simply didnt have it in t hem to roll a goodie, so moved on? and if there are more than a handful, would dropping this barrier be enough for th em to want to play again?

it still wouldnt change the fact that moving a group with drow in it around daylight places is slower t han to not bother at all.


I disagree that what you think is the real issue is the real issue :P. The issue is, is this what players want? and I for one don't. Do I wish there were more evils? Yes, of course I do, but do I want all the racial barriers to just drop, no I can't say I do, sorry teyaha, but you don't know what I want.

oh, and no, I don't think they would come back.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Shevarash » Tue May 27, 2008 3:10 pm

We've talked about this a lot on these forums, so I'll keep this brief:

There are major balance issues with the idea of uniting the good and evil races, apart from the obvious RP considerations. Eseentially, the evil races are engineered to be more powerful than their good counterparts, since they were originally intended to be an "advanced" set of races. I understand the difficulty with having two distinct sets of players with the smaller playerbase we have now, but I'm loathe to destroy the race/class balance to try to help it. I hate to say it, but the re-balancing of 2.0 could allow for all of the races to intermingle if we can get past the theme problems, but that's still a bit of a ways off.

Perhaps there's a more subtle way of fixing this problem that won't impact game balance so much. I'll think about it, and if anyone else has ideas I'd be interested to hear them.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Vooku » Tue May 27, 2008 5:05 pm

Don't like 95% of this playerbase have 50s on both sides?
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby fobble » Tue May 27, 2008 5:55 pm

Shevarash wrote:Perhaps there's a more subtle way of fixing this problem that won't impact game balance so much. I'll think about it, and if anyone else has ideas I'd be interested to hear them.


While some evil races are generally more powerful, I think just removing barrier and allowing evil and goodie (game balance wise, not RP) is negligible on individual basis and won't affect overall power of the group imo. Here are the reasons why I believe so.

Class/Balance Shift/Reason

Warrior / Yes, it will shift / While Troll warriors would replace elven warriors, please take note that almost all barb/dorf warriors were replaced by elves. But even so, anything remotely related to fire would make elves come out of woodwork for tankage instead of troll imo.

Enchanter / No, it will not shift / Evil race chanters doesn't offer anything significantly overpowering over goodie chanter.

Rogue / No / efhr so you won't see evilrace rogues replacing efhr.

Cleric / Maybe / Possibly Yuan may replace just about every other race but don't think people will roll a yuan cleric to replace their goodie race cleric.

Bard & Bchanter / No / Orc doesn't over anything particular over goodie race. Actually elfie bard may overtake bchanter in this class.

Psi / No / Psi is pretty much glorified druid for transport and niche class that does some damage but voker still p3wn psi in area and rogue in single dmg so in a way Psi is gimp.

Ele / No / i think purely personal preference (but elfie and yuan would battle for top due to their agil/int) but still.

Sha / No / barb vs. orc vs. ogre vs. troll? i think ogre and troll shammie would end up being replaced instead of otherway around

Rang & Dire / No / orc might end up being replaced by grey elf rangers instead of otherway around.

Nec / No / if necros do go in zone or xp, dayblind is more of hinder than anything else and yuan doesn't offer significant benefit over hum for people to roll yuan to replace their hum necro.

As for other mages like invoker and ill, I think pretty much gnome or grey elf will continue to dominate even if race barrier comes down since drow got dayblind and int diff between grey and drow ain't much. yuan is possible but even then i don't think yuan offer much over grey elf voker.

I think at this point before I go further to give examples. Pretty much only two classes where goodie races will be dominated by evil race would be Warrior (troll) and Cleric (yuan), but besides those two...simple fact that grey elf rules most of rest and efhr owns rog. So imagine a goodie and evil combined group where all the warriors troll and cleics are yuan...i don't think it'll speed up or overpower any zones.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Tue May 27, 2008 8:44 pm

That's a pretty big post and you never mention drow elves once. Also: PSI are not gimp, they are the biggest advantage that evils have over goodies (read: feedback).
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Botef » Tue May 27, 2008 8:59 pm

Aside from the more obvious balance questions (Yuan Clerics/Troll Warriors/Psi !feedback) I really don't see cross-racial grouping creating too much of an impact. The fact of the matter is you still need an Illithid for evil groups to do 90% of the content since just about every zone is outside or has outside elements. That right there pretty much nulls most of the advantages all the dayblind races get and is honestly probably the main reason even 'advanced' players shun the idea of playing evil...Nobody wants that kind of reliance on one class to do the majority of zones and that seems to be one of the biggest gripes goodrace leaders have with trying to do things with evilraces.

I bet if dayblind was altered to function more like infra (you see 'dark' shapes instead of red shapes when dayblind) there would be considerably more interest in playing evilraces. Problem is that kind of fix should have been addressed a long time ago and at this point there just isnt enough numbers to support separate sides simultaneously. Non the less a fix like that might at least get more people to experiment with evil groups.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Tue May 27, 2008 9:27 pm

I'd say that your best argument would be that evils were given druids, why haven't goodies been given psi?
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Wed May 28, 2008 1:05 am

Botef wrote:I bet if dayblind was altered to function more like infra (you see 'dark' shapes instead of red shapes when dayblind) there would be considerably more interest in playing evilraces.


Other than deleting all evilraces, that's the best idea I've heard in awhile Botef. Nice idea.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby fobble » Wed May 28, 2008 4:07 pm

Gormal wrote:That's a pretty big post and you never mention drow elves once. Also: PSI are not gimp, they are the biggest advantage that evils have over goodies (read: feedback).


I did mention drow elves with comments about dayblind as pretty annoying hinderance that slow the group down as and as drow voker. I think drow/grey int is pretty much same and the difference being slightly in con/str/agil area. So why would someone pick drow over grey as mage when both are pretty much same stat while drow get dayblind for mage classes if both race can group with anyone?

As for psi. imo isn't the biggest advantage. While there is no feedback in psi, there is the lag which is quite deadly when you do runs. Also while vokers area when there are 2 or more mobs. Psi don't area unless there's at least 3-4 cuz psi area isn't all dat hot in first place. Even if its comparable damage, if you throw on right gear (ie tia circlet) psi is not going to out damage a voker. Keep in mind that while voker can also mem out but if squid runs out of mana they need help from another class just to stay in fight.

Besides all that, the biggest challenge is fact of reliance required for Psi and dayblind races, which is pretty big and sort of forces certain group structuring.

ex: you got dayblind race? bring squid or elementalist to keep the room dark.
ex: got squid? bring illusionist to keep psi able to battle (by feeding on dopple).

In all seriousness I really don't see drow overtaking any races in caster (except lich) and grey will continue to rule that area. As for Psi, it's debatable but pretty sure if all races were allowed to group regardless...group will probably take 1 psi for transport and to support against psi attack while doing some dmg.

I honestly believe only few classes would be dominated by evil race and that being warrior and possibly cleric. Voker, chanter, I don't think you'll see drow or yuan take over those roles. What may change with Psi is that Psi may replace a third voker in the party so group brings two voker + psi instead of 3 voker. But seriously most of group would be good race anyway with current racial stat structure.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby fobble » Wed May 28, 2008 4:19 pm

Gormal wrote:I'd say that your best argument would be that evils were given druids, why haven't goodies been given psi?


Personally I think Psi shoulda been class available to most races and not exclusively to squid. Even if goodies had psi class available due to stat reliance on pow and int, pretty sure mana on them would be low and non-squid psi would run out of juice more frequently and limiting firepower/support ability noticably.

Even if goodie are allowed Psi, for zone requiring area dmg. Leaders would still take 2 voker and take 1 psi instead of maybe 3 voker. I don't think psi would dominate any class and replace them (possibly druid but squid can't silence or heal or vit).
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Wed May 28, 2008 8:33 pm

Code: Select all

Race     Str     Agi     Dex     Con     Int     Wis     Cha
drow      90     125     110     95      150     90      85
greyelf   85     130     115     85      150     100     110


As a caster, you lose 5agi for 10 con. Also, ultravision does have its uses.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Thilindel » Wed May 28, 2008 8:48 pm

If that's accurate, how come grey elf gain hps with 101 con? :( Their starting hps both are 34 as warriors if I recall right. That being that drow have same hps as warriors. I can barely remember but they seem to have the same hps. If drow do have 10 more con, then why do grey elf notch at 101. *boggle*
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Wed May 28, 2008 9:38 pm

If you haven't read this, then you shouldn't be posting about racial inequalities.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Shevarash » Wed May 28, 2008 9:48 pm

fixed in 2.0
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Thilindel » Thu May 29, 2008 5:59 am

Gormal wrote:If you haven't read this, then you shouldn't be posting about racial inequalities.



Not that I didn't read it. It's that I forgot my drow warrior :( Been over 4 years ago. They start with 35 hps. Grey elf start with 34. Bastards!
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Llaaldara » Thu May 29, 2008 7:41 pm

Shevarash wrote:We've talked about this a lot on these forums, so I'll keep this brief:

There are major balance issues with the idea of uniting the good and evil races, apart from the obvious RP considerations. Eseentially, the evil races are engineered to be more powerful than their good counterparts, since they were originally intended to be an "advanced" set of races. I understand the difficulty with having two distinct sets of players with the smaller playerbase we have now, but I'm loathe to destroy the race/class balance to try to help it. I hate to say it, but the re-balancing of 2.0 could allow for all of the races to intermingle if we can get past the theme problems, but that's still a bit of a ways off.

Perhaps there's a more subtle way of fixing this problem that won't impact game balance so much. I'll think about it, and if anyone else has ideas I'd be interested to hear them.


I remember bringing this up, asking about it some time ago. It's my constant re-occurring question every time I stop in. Shevarash, you speak of RP considerations, but by not allowing my characters to interact on all levels that they can with their own racial side with the other side, is this not in fact limiting my RP expression?

If my dark elves can't go on grand adventures, or even small ones, and share the experience of such adventures, how am I being allowed to express my RP in-game? Sitting around Jenna's Wayhouse and talking is only one avenue of RP expression. You know this as much as you know it is a dramatic limitation to prevent evils and goodies from grouping in RP purposes. Remember this with Paladins and evil aligns? Isn't that different now? See my point?

As I said before, I would return to active and full-time playing IF evils could group with goodies. I want to come back and get back into my RP and feed my imagination with my established characters. I want to play them again, not max out something new.

Now, in terms of balance?
1) Who cares with 2.0 on the way? Or is 2.0 not on the way much like Kris's Menzo? Do we have years of waiting to go still, is that why this is even a consideration?
2) Imbalance? I do not believe the advantages some races have over others are as bad as they are being made out to be. They have negatives too, remember? If I go as one of my drow to group with goodies, chances are they aren't always going to have a psi there to keep it dark for me. I'm going to be thrown into daylight constantly. In summary, it will make gaming HARDER for me as an evil grouped with goodies, rather then easier. And in specific terms of the invoker class, good lord, every time I log in I'm usually 1 of 2 invokers even on! From what I see and read people want rogues, and its all about the efh's, which we can already group with!

Once upon a time this game was about maximizing each group to its fullest potential. Now it is much like the evil community was 5-6 years ago, desperate for bodies to just fill out a group, regardless of class. After playing for a little the other night, doing nothing but grinding exp, I can safely say, I have zero interest in grinding exp. I forgot just how mind numbingly slow and boring it is. I would be surprised if there are a lot of individuals who feel differently and would rather max out a new 'best' character configuration. I think in all honesty, people just want to play their old favorite characters again, to heck with what's best for a group.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gerad2 » Thu May 29, 2008 8:46 pm

Llaaldara that is a very nice post.

My opinion is a bit more hard line... I guess I probably see this as way more 'oh crap the boat REALLY IS going down this time' than most people do.

I understand, and understood even when I started mudding in the early 90's that it was definitely a fringe sort of game, and was almost totally populated by pen and paper role players who will do anything to preserve things like 'rules' or 'cannon'. Anything at all - like be blinded by these sometimes arbitrary things that have nothing whatsoever to do with the game itself - only with the perceived idea of what the game is - which is exactly what it isn't!

It is insane (and humorously nearly Jingoistic) to think that any concern over the 'role playing' or 'story' elements involved here matter in any way whatsoever. If you disagree, let me ask you this:
What do you think turns people off more; the lack of a little continuity, OR NOBODY TO FUCKING MUD WITH?

*ahem* sorry...

My point is guys, that this is NOT D&D 2nd edition in computer format. Anyone who wanted that needs to go play DDO and find out exactly how much a game that sticks only to the rules sucks.

It's your game and it's your story and it's about time to make some hard choices or not have a game.

The only thing that matters is the following experience:

1) Player logs on.
2) Player sees other players.
3) Players form group.
4) Players find mobs, kill them and gain experience and items for doing so.
5) Players do this enough time to gain levels and continuously progress through the game each time that they play it.

If the above criteria are not met, the game fails. There are too many games and even MUDS that crush Toril at this, Toril cannot survive the way that it is.

This has been acknowledged though, what can or what is being done about it remains to be seen. Nobody can realistically expect Shev and what can't be more than a few other people to build a brand new mud alone, and that is something that just needs to be plainly understood. "Toril 2 is coming" means "we will have Toril 2 in like a decade when someones pet project launches" OR "Toril 2 will never come because there is no Toril 2."

I don't know why you guys want to build a whole new mud when this one isn't broken. You can't have a whole new mud. Not yours. Still waiting for it? Have fun waiting. The whispers of that began when I left and most of you probably don't remember me as Gerad or Celara. I understand that I do not have a lot of information, or experience with the mud for the last several years, I have done everything I can to comment on things that seem to be understood and not internalized.

You need to find out where you can agree with me that Toril is failing in the above and get a band-aid on it so that it can be what it always was, really is and should be: a fun place for you and your friends where the journey never ends.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby spunionring » Thu May 29, 2008 10:26 pm

Middle ground, people. Lets talk compormises.

My ideas for limited intermingling of goodie/evils:

1) Allow them to group, only based on align. So evil aligned evilrace only group with evil/neutral aligned goodrace.

hrmm problems:
can evil aligned goodrace group with goodaligned goodrace? currently yes. hell even paladins can group with human necros and antis, right?
k, that kinda sets the whole rp reasoning aside.
does this make sense to rp? NO
does this make sense regarding the current pbase? YES

If grouping restrictions were based solely on alignment, even within the goodies, well that would divide the pbase more. NO GOOD
If it only applied to evilraces joining goodie groups (and vice versa) then the only problem i see is that there currently is nearly no option for rolling/changing to neutrals on both sides of the racewar.

This idea is also rp friendly/setting friendly. Forgotten realms has the most obvious example of a non-evil drow grouping with dwarves halflings etc. I recall other stories of non evil orcs joining adventurers. D&D definitely also allows the same.


2) Dont allow them to group, but allow them to benefit from spells/enter transport.
This is not gonna help those who want to zone with goodies, but for noobs who want to play evils, they can at least get help when needed. This being a major factor, especially for new players trying to exp in scardale, and beyond.


3) Prolly not a good idea, i mean i guess it would set new players up, learning one thing in scardale and then being very different in the outside world.. But... maybe just allow goodies/evils to group in scardale? I see that as the major thing impeding new players. Many new players want an evil cause they seem cool. but then they get in the game and cant group with the ppl online, if any.


4) Just by enabling these races to group does NOT eliminate..
a) Invasion code - stay out of hometowns! This will be the biggest thing preventing mixed groups from doing stuff. Meet ya at TP!
b) aggro to evils
b) Dayblind!
c) Limited eq slots (omg tail eq sure seems weak)
d) being a squid. poor guy. :(
I mean seriously, powergamers dont play evilrace, rp players do.


5) Just a question, but, i dont see yuanti clerics around at all. I understand why they should own, theyre the only race with enhanced wis. I dont see it in game tho. Prolly the eq slots (ear/ear/leg/feet) Tail eq for the most part is barely equal to one of the lost slots.
I also see why trolls would own, since theyre the only race with greater than human con AND agi.
As for the rest.. well, goodies will maintain their hold i think.

In the end, id say 'most' goodie players arent very interested in grouping with evil players and vice versa. theres alot of tension there. Id say if grouping was enabled it would primarily affect lowbies/exp groups.




and as for other ideas presented...
I think that changing ultravision to work more like infravision is a good idea.
I think human psi's and yuanti druids are a great idea :) Human wild talent? cooool

Shev: yer tiny print was cute :P but how is it gonna be fixed? are races just more balanced, so yer gonna let em all group?
Is Adriorn finally gonna be able to group with all those evilrace players that he has been denied the oppurtunity to group with all this time? oh my...
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Todrael » Thu May 29, 2008 11:48 pm

I'd like to give my support to allowing goodrace and evilrace to group as part of the 'band-aid' fixes while we wait for Toril 2.0. I haven't played Todrael since I retired him 5 years ago, and I think that's pretty sad.

I will say, however, that people underestimate the lack of feedback for psi. We did all of Brass in 4 minutes and some seconds with 3 psi, 1 voker, 1 lich.
-Todrael Azz'miala, Ravager
Get Toril Guides and Maps at Todrael's Lair
Get Item Stats at TorilEQ
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Raiwen » Fri May 30, 2008 2:53 am

was that pre-nerfed psi?
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Fri May 30, 2008 5:01 am

No feedback is extremely powerful, its what defines their class plus another set of group buffs.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Thilindel » Fri May 30, 2008 6:06 pm

Feedback is a pseudo-issue in the first place. It's just put in the mud for 'balance.' Mobs can group-cloud your ass all day. Yay Loki fight. Mobs multi/floor bash you all day. Multiple wing buffets, magma, etc. Why not "balance" the spells in the first place. If you think of it from common sense, if you're a general on the opposing army, you see a group with several tanks or heavy artillery coming, you're going to freak. Not wait on them to orchestrate shooting off because the recoil of one shot will damage another in their midst. Illogical.

I've done fights where you go from 800 to dead in same round as four incendiaries landed at same time. Does it seem fair? Duh.. Mobs areas hit 100%. There's none of this 'Out of the area' bullshit. Saving throws are there for a reason. They save, they 'rolled out of the way' or partially hid behind something, etc. Either way, I'm find this system as it is now, quite erroneous.
Grundar tells you 'I took on the entire football team once. The only reason my mom knew later was because I had a runny nose'
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Fri May 30, 2008 6:19 pm

I actually like feedback as it allows magical damage to still be good, but keeps groups from zerging zones with invokers like we used to. I agree that the current spell radius code is bogus and seems very tacked on (it was). Disruption burst has a great mechanic that I know is supposed to show up in 2.0, but it'd be cooler if more spells had a stricter radius and required you to intelligently target your aoe's rather than just hit inferno/swarm/mem for 3 hours and collect your loot.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Thilindel » Fri May 30, 2008 7:47 pm

I would like that yes and no! It'd be great cuz invokering wouldn't be so *yawn* but for holding babies, it'd be harder to type one handed. Erm, and not for the same reason pril types one handed!
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Fri May 30, 2008 9:22 pm

Cause Mike is a pirate?
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Llaaldara » Thu Jun 05, 2008 7:42 pm

Back on track..

The whole "we must adhere to the rules of balance set forth by our for-forgers in the days of the great awakening, when the rivers flowed with the.." just seems so out of place now. There's never been a racial war that actually transpired on this game in any shape or form. The one racial war that did take place, was on Duris/Baest.

Let's be real. This PvE version of the mud has never had this racial war. It simply does not apply to this version of the MUD, which now instead leans more heavily on the RP aspect. Well... then.. let us be more RP free.

CRY HAVOK and set loose the hounds of RP!!



For the love of.. PLEASE SHEVY!?!?!?

I want to play again!!! I want to get into all my crazy RP creativity I used to do. LET ME! Don't lock me in a VT inn with nothing to do all day but talk to a couple AFK people. THAT'S SO MINDNUMBINGLY BORING!!!! 4 Years ago it was pretty bad, but I could at least turn myself into a quest mob and have at least SOME people use the RP zmud code I did. There's no one now. It's unplayable!

I wanna play!! I want to get back into my writing about my characters again! PLEASE HELP ME!
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Latreg » Thu Jun 05, 2008 8:51 pm

the line between who can group with whom is rather zig zaggy, anti paladins and paladins in same groups. Elves and liches etc etc you can make many combinations that just don't jive. If you read the stories and rule books for which this mud is based, many of the evil races would never group together either, most are genocidal and or homicidal. the problem with doing away with the evil races is the zones and hometowns which could then never be used, then there's the evil race only gear..... I don't like the idea of everyone can group with everyone, but if that was the case I would totally strip my elf cleric and only use my yuan-ti cleric, both are level 50.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gerad2 » Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:08 pm

The idea of 'race wars' is so old that 'race wars' isn't even really a P.C. term anymore. It's never going to happen. The very idea has become anachronistic.

Let the grouping run free and wild.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Thilindel » Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:19 pm

Some people were saying 'Oh, x race wouldn't be picked if evils/goods mixed.'

But, so what? People chose evils for a challenge in the first place. It's RP, style, preference etc. I wouldn't remake a char and redo quests just for a more ideal character. It's not 1930! Get rid of racial barriers! :P
Grundar tells you 'I took on the entire football team once. The only reason my mom knew later was because I had a runny nose'
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby EXB » Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:24 am

So I am new (but not at the same time). My brother turned me on to sojourn as one of the first muds I played back in 93 or so, and I've always floated about.

Without delving into the entire context of this thread, but along the lines of improving the playerbase (or current existing playerbase). I was curious if anyone has touched on encouraging experience gains with the player base as is?

Without rambling here are a couple ideas:

-A bonus to experience gains while grouping (if there isn't already) so that more people are inclined to look for grouping.

My reason for this is that grouping as a legitimate newbie has always, always been rather difficult in low levels. Perhaps the boon could be applied elsewhere, rather than experience. Perhaps the odds of finding random items or other such trinkets could be implimented to encourage that.

-The other idea is a little difficult to explain, but please bear with me. It would be seperate for good/evil with their own check sum. Basically, if you log in and you are a level 15 duergar warrior, and the rest of the currently logged in players are 40-50 you would receive a bonus to experience (or again, perhaps a bonus elsewhere) Now if you log in and there is a level 17 ogre shaman, or another groupable player who is within a five-ten level range the bonus would not come into play.

Again, the most difficult things I have experienced is really the inability to find a group. So at that point I am left with trying to solo, however, this becomes very tedious and slow (which.. don't get me wrong, it's needed to be rewarded by reaching 50) with sometimes a pain-staking cost if you die and have nobody to ress.

Anyhow, if you've made it this far, thank you for reading and hopefully these ideas are fairly new or can spark other incentives!

EXB

-Nuluyoxxox
-Kezal
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Ashiwi » Sat Jun 28, 2008 1:43 pm

Gerad2 wrote:It is insane (and humorously nearly Jingoistic) to think that any concern over the 'role playing' or 'story' elements involved here matter in any way whatsoever.


I fully agree with this statement. There's no point, whatsoever, in continuing to argue the RP points of this issue.
Reason to RP in this game has been gimped at every turn, and as far as I can tell, staff no longer actively supports RP in any form. There are a few token gestures, but this game used to be an RP-encouraged game, and is no longer. Personally, I don't even see it as RP-optional. It's about as RP-optional as wearing a superman costume is optional to do your shopping at Wal-Mart; they won't arrest you for it, but nobody understands why you do it, you're bound to be ridiculed by the more vocal of the people who observe you, and those who aren't vocal about would still look at you like you're crazy. So much for having a cohesive and immersive world to play in. All that's left are the mechanics, so keep your arguments to those.
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Re: Evilrace/Goodrace

Postby Gormal » Sat Jun 28, 2008 3:58 pm

EXA wrote:-The other idea is a little difficult to explain, but please bear with me. It would be seperate for good/evil with their own check sum. Basically, if you log in and you are a level 15 duergar warrior, and the rest of the currently logged in players are 40-50 you would receive a bonus to experience (or again, perhaps a bonus elsewhere) Now if you log in and there is a level 17 ogre shaman, or another groupable player who is within a five-ten level range the bonus would not come into play.


This idea has been tossed around before, and simply can't work for two reasons: sub-20s that want to level outside scardale would be kind of hosed, and people can idle for as long as they want on any character.

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