Can we restat our old characters?

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Hyldryn
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Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Hyldryn » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:42 am

Since existing character stats wont matter come toril 2.0, can we restat our older characters with the new roller as a stop gap fix?
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:55 am

This is a very nice idea for the old schoolers among us who refuse to reroll old characters who have some irrational significance to us :)

I agree Hyld.

Perhaps one-two per player to make it easier on the gods?
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Ashiwi » Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:14 pm

While I would personally rather have every other character in the game rerolled to be less than perfect, I'm at the point where I have to agree. I'm pretty sick of carrying around a con deficiency due to failed resses early in wipe when only a small handful of other people have to deal with these issues, so I know there are others out there who have to be frustrated with the issue. I'd happily work through any flaws in my character's stats as long as everybody's on an even footing, but since we all know that's not the case, why not fix it?

There's only a small handful of people like me who give the mud any reason whatsoever to support the tons and tons of non-max-stat-enhancing equipment, anyway, so might as well just give up and make it totally pointless.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna reroll, though. Perfection was never on my agenda.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Yasden » Fri Jun 13, 2008 2:22 am

I would never reroll Targsk, despite the countless attempts by people trying to coerce me into doing so. The sheer number hours I spent maxing out all his skills I would NEVER spend again with the current skill system. It was more of a test I was conducting at the time and I wanted to do something different, unlike collecting foods or weapons or whatever.

Targsk and Aristan both have extremely sub-par stats, and Aristan is worse off due to being a hybrid class and the sheer number of requirements needed. I would love to be able to reroll them and ditch some of the retarded +stat equipment they have to wear in order to secure notches or justify wearing max_stat gear.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Thilindel » Fri Jun 13, 2008 3:14 am

Who said anything about re-exp'g or re-practicing? That'd be outrightly stupid.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Gormal » Fri Jun 13, 2008 11:08 am

Yasden wrote:Aristan is worse off due to being a hybrid class and the sheer number of requirements needed.


Yeah you really need that int and wis for your completely useless spells...

I'm all for this idea as I did reroll Gormal and its a pain in the ass with the current skill system like Targsk said. Melee classes really shine when they level every combat skill up (and the person behind the keys knows what to do with them). Its mindnumbingly boring and sometimes near impossible to level certain skills. I mean 45 hours for a single notch on one skill? Are you kidding me?
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Disoputlip » Fri Jun 13, 2008 8:21 pm

I agree. And this is not just small differences we are talking about statwise. Here are a few chars to show just how much we would gain.


Code: Select all

                Character attributes for Yog

Level: 50   Race: Barbarian   Class: Shaman     
Age: 110 yrs / 10 mths  Height: 75 inches  Weight: 248 lbs
STR:  83  AGI:  67  DEX:  86  CON:  77
POW:  56  INT:  69  WIS:  90  CHA:  52
Armor Class: 100  (100 to -100)   Magic Resistance: 0 percent
Hitroll: 5   Damroll: 5
Alignment: Chaotic Neutral
Saving Throws: PAR[0]  ROD[0]  PET[0]  BRE[0]  SPE[0]
   Wimpy: not set
Load carried: Light


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                Character attributes for Disoputlip

Level: 50   Race: Duergar   Class: Cleric     
Age: 188 yrs / 5 mths  Height: 47 inches  Weight: 207 lbs
STR:  92  AGI:  65  DEX:  83  CON:  78
POW:  50  INT:  60  WIS:  91  CHA:  42
Armor Class: 100  (100 to -100)   Magic Resistance: 0 percent
Hitroll: 5   Damroll: 7
Alignment: Lawful Evil
Saving Throws: PAR[0]  ROD[0]  PET[0]  BRE[0]  SPE[0]


Besides gaining better mem times we would gain 30 ac.

The downside however is that some of the +stat items we wear (mantle of knowledge, lizard headband, doeskin quiver etc) would be returned to the storage.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Llaaldara » Fri Jun 13, 2008 9:51 pm

Ashiwi wrote:While I would personally rather have every other character in the game rerolled to be less than perfect, I'm at the point where I have to agree. I'm pretty sick of carrying around a con deficiency due to failed resses early in wipe when only a small handful of other people have to deal with these issues, so I know there are others out there who have to be frustrated with the issue. I'd happily work through any flaws in my character's stats as long as everybody's on an even footing, but since we all know that's not the case, why not fix it?

There's only a small handful of people like me who give the mud any reason whatsoever to support the tons and tons of non-max-stat-enhancing equipment, anyway, so might as well just give up and make it totally pointless.

Doesn't mean I'm gonna reroll, though. Perfection was never on my agenda.


Yeah, I'm one of them on two characters. Lichy is weakling who needs constant strength spells applied, and invoker is the undisputed lowest natural hp 50 on the mud cuz of her ungodly bad con score. I remember a similar discussion years ago, where we just wanted to be able to swap two stats with each other.

That's pretty much all I wanna do. Not completely upgrade my character to a newer-super-uber version. Just.. ya know.. fix that one horrible stat. Really does no good having an 80 something dex on an invoker and a 50 something con. Blehk. It was always so bad, she couldn't do SPoB. :\

I think she had like 60 something when created, but yeah all those failed ress's... hurt... a lot.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:44 pm

bump
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:46 pm

Can a god please think about this please? With the amount of people playing it wouldn't be a big deal. One character per old timer won't be a big deal, and would mean alot for old timers and their favorite character. Please respond.

Thanks!
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Shevarash » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:40 pm

I'm not initially opposed to the idea, and I will bring it up with tthe rest of the staff for further discussion and get back to you.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby fobble » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:24 pm

Shevarash wrote:I'm not initially opposed to the idea, and I will bring it up with tthe rest of the staff for further discussion and get back to you.


Yay, cheer!
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Fri Aug 01, 2008 8:37 pm

Thank you Shev, very much. I appreciate the response and hope.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Yasden » Fri Aug 01, 2008 10:50 pm

Well both of my legacy characters were created before the new roller....so it'd be nice for me to be able to restat them both. Not sure if there's any sort of record in the pfiles about when a player was created, but maybe set up some sort of script if there is to prompt the player that they can reroll their stats.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Maedor » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:01 am

What? Maedor won't have to live with 35agility forever?

And what would the point of the 4ish efhrs I've rolled/leveled up to gain better hp/stats :-P

I actually wish all chars would be forced to reroll on the old roller instead of rolling on the new roller. There is no eq variety amongst top tier players since almost everyone now rolls max stats...imagine how much variety would be opened up if we had to incorporate +stat items into our eq sets...allowing more zones to be played...and the option of more eq variety for new areas in the future. Currently, the only new eq someone can make is +hp and +dam better than the existing eq...with imperfect characters, you could add +stat modifiers to eq and force players to actually get creative (or live with stat suckiness).
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Thu Aug 14, 2008 2:05 am

There's a big difference Greg between imperfect stats and bad stats. Missing a dex notch is one thing, missing three notches is another.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Shaiith » Tue Oct 07, 2008 12:57 pm

Rolling for stats isn't that hard, it just takes a well written autoroller and patience. Most people have far too low expectations, see below for what you should be shooting for if you decide to reroll (or even if you decide to start another alt, may as well start off right). If you're serious about your character (who knows when 2.0 is going in) be serious about the rolling. It's an easy way to improve your character.

How much time would you spend on your gear to improve by a set amount? (so much hit/dam, hp, int, con, etc) Construct a gearset that you could justify wearing if your stats were better. Now think about how much playing time you'd be willing to put in to achieve that goal. Rerolling is generally dirt cheap when considered in that light. Why wait for them to offer a restat option? If you zone to eventually get gear improvements (as opposed to zoning just for fun, which is a fine goal, but don't bemoan your stats then), start running a roller so that you at least have an option to be tempted by. Also, unless they hand out free stats, you're likely going to need to have a rolled character to swap the stats with anyway to prove "legality".

My efhr, con is high enough that this would be a max notch elf, ie an Ashiwi with 3 perfects, maxnotch con and a really high int is possible.

Code: Select all

                Character attributes for Medri

Level: 24   Race: Human   Class: Rogue
Age: 146 yrs / 0 mths  Height: 67 inches  Weight: 182 lbs
STR: 100  AGI: 100  DEX: 100  CON:  87
POW:  47  INT:  92  WIS:  52  CHA:  36


My ogre warrior

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                Character attributes for Mato

Level: 20   Race: Ogre   Class: Warrior
Age: 156 yrs / 10 mths  Height: 109 inches  Weight: 1095 lbs
STR: 100  AGI: 100  DEX: 100  CON: 100
POW:  44  INT:  64  WIS:  59  CHA:  48


My yuan-ti warrior

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                Character attributes for Ssakerath

Level: 41   Race: Yuan-Ti   Class: Warrior
Age: 184 yrs / 15 mths  Height: 65 inches  Weight: 177 lbs
STR: 100  AGI: 100  DEX: 100  CON: 100
POW:  59  INT:  60  WIS:  56  CHA:  38


My elf warrior, probably the best of all three of these.

Code: Select all

                Character attributes for Ibahalii

Level: 42   Race: Grey Elf   Class: Warrior
Age: 251 yrs / 11 mths  Height: 60 inches  Weight: 102 lbs
STR: 100  AGI: 100  DEX: 100  CON: 100
POW:  39  INT:  70  WIS:  55  CHA:  50


My elf enchanter

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                Character attributes for Shaiith

Level: 50   Race: Grey Elf   Class: Enchanter
Age: 359 yrs / 16 mths  Height: 60 inches  Weight: 96 lbs
STR: 100  AGI: 100  DEX:  76  CON:  95
POW:  38  INT: 100  WIS:  54  CHA:  50


You get the point I hope. Seemingly impossible stats are possible. (Bard/Battlechanter/Paladin/Antipaladin/Ranger/Dire Raider/Psionicist may have some compromises on stats to make, I don't have examples because I never rolled them due to not deciding which compromise I was happy with making) I'm also sure that there are people out there with better stats than these.

One word of caution, if you're rolling for near impossible, make sure you implement some strategy to ensure that you get a close to impossible character without endless rolling. You don't want to set your sights too high and miss out on a 1 in 2-3 million character (4 perfect warriors are about this rare).
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Vaprak » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:06 pm

Your efhr is inadequate! Reroll! How do you expect to wear two noxious fumes bracelets with con like that :(
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Botef » Tue Oct 07, 2008 2:19 pm

Some of you seem to be forgetting that the old roller didn't allow you to swap stats, so there are some of us with characters with say an 87 in power, and a 62 in agility, or a super high charisma and a piss poor con. The roller really shouldn't have ever given such high scores in attributes not needed for your class anyways, so allowing rerolls for these stats make perfect sense. I'd even be willing to sacrifice some buffer xp to make the change if it meant I could enjoy playing older characters again.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby shalath » Tue Oct 07, 2008 5:40 pm

Omg Shaiith!
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby therdann » Tue Oct 07, 2008 7:48 pm

Cool I want my level 57 back :P

And my power of beer
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Tue Oct 07, 2008 10:00 pm

Shevarash wrote:I'm not initially opposed to the idea, and I will bring it up with tthe rest of the staff for further discussion and get back to you.


This was two months ago, so I'm hoping a decision might have been reached possibly? Thanks. I would love to be able to re-stat Adriorn. Like I said before, with the amount of people still playing, I don't think it'll be a big deal to restat the old characters still roaming around that actually play.

Thanks again.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Shaiith » Wed Oct 08, 2008 12:52 pm

Thinking about this some more and possible implementation methods

1) A movement of stats from one character of the same class to another. Would the character who's stats were copied be deleted, nerfed stats, or unchanged? If it was anything other than unchanged there'd need to be an intercharacter verification method. This could be problematic to code, and a royal pita to administer if done by hand. If the stat source character is unchanged, could the stats be copied multiple times? (ie all rogues copy medri, she's max notch con for all races) We'd like get a thread with best character to use for stat copy by class. Is this a one time thing? Or could multiple copies be done?

I'd aim for as many copies as desired from anyone with no changes to the source character as that likely seems to the be the easiest to implement and it also prevents future lock-in to bad stats in case someone typos their source or makes a dumb choice, etc. It'd also be an opportunity for everyone to see that known god alts don't cheat as their stats are within the range of normal outcomes.

2) Allowing people to set their stats within a certain framework. Looking over my posted characters, they have between 613 and 615 total stats with an average of 613.8. I'm not sure that it would be a good idea to allow people to allocate 600+ points exactly as they wish. It would be interesting to see the choices that people made, but only on certain classes as free allocation of all points is more than enough for the basic classes.

It would be probably useful to implement some sort of stat minimums to prevent cha and pow of 1 on almost all characters. Looking over my characters the 5th through 8th stats are always at least 60, 52, 47, 36. It would seem reasonible to say that the 5th through 8th stats should never go below 60, 50, 50, 40 say (ie always spend at least 200 points, and you're going to need a worst stat of 40 or better, etc).

There's also the question of how many points to allow people to allocate. I'd pick something north of 600 (otherwise 4 perfect warriors aren't possible if at least 200 is required on the other 4 stats, and people shouldn't feel like they're gimping themselves somewhere, and tanks really should have 4 perfects on the top row), but probably something less than the 615 my best character listed evidences.

Again, I'd allow people to make multiple swaps to avoid current mistakes (or future game changes) causing some people to get stuck in a suboptimal setup. There could easily be a charge of 100% xp or whatever is deemed appropriate to prevent bad outcomes like situational flip flopping ie doing the Targsk, leveling skills, time to change to a more stat friendly setup, etc (although I think there's enough +stat gear to fix up even a 40 if you're just leveling skills and don't need your normal equipment) I don't think flip flopping would really be an issue, but I can understand the desire to affix a cost to the change.

=========
What kind of stats would people end up with if they had 600 points to distribute and had to spend at least 200 on the lowest 4 stats? I'd imagine we'd see things like (ignoring hybrids as they're more complex)

warrior: 4 perfect, 60 int (hybrids I'd probably drop the 60 in whatever the casting stat is and just deal with the lower stat rather than hurt the physical stats)

mage caster: perfect str/agi/int then max notch con/maximimum # of inventory slots possible through dex/change of points in wis if any left, not sure what stats I'd give a squid (con notch is at 92, along with maybe needing power, so uggh)

priest caster: perfect str/agi/wis then max notch con/maximize int, eat a lower dex (50, maybe tweak up a point or two for an item slot notch)

rogue: perfect str/agi/dex, then max notch con/maximize int (87/73 for elves, 74/86 for humans, etc). Not sure what stats I'd give bards/battlechanters but I'd likely prefer their song skills, whatever stats that takes since if a group just wanted their damage, they'd bring an invoker or efhr depending on damage flavor desired.

None of allocations are better than what a person can roll today if they're patient enough. However, would people continue to roll? Considering myself, probably not (and I consider myself fairly extreme about rolling). I'd likely settle for the 73 int on an elf rogue rather than pushing for the higher 92 that my current efhr evidences is possible (while still maintaining the elf required 87 con).


Footnote: Why those stats? (big tangent below on agi/ac vs maxint/hp, I'm explaining my logic, not suggesting that everyone makes the same choices)

Why do they all have perfect str? Reduce and gear load. The hitters also have perfect str to preserve the option of maxstr gear without patching the base stat.

Why do they all have perfect agi? AC is more important than most people realize. Unbuffed a yuan/elf at -151 AC gets missed by mephits around 50% of the time (assuming zone mobs have a similar hit rate, no testing was done).

That's a pretty big boost to survivability when shit hits the fan (if the mob is missing half the time that basically doubles your effective health). Add in a blur and you can solo smoke without stone/scale/displace/heals (almost every hit attempt either comes through scales or is a miss). However it requires gearing specifically to reach that point as most mage (and a lot of priest) gear is lower in AC than desired, but it is possible to hit the AC cap while still wearing "good" mage gear, you do have to make tradeoffs between maxint/hp and ac, but imo they're worthwhile.

Which would you choose? 50ish hp/some maxint or 50% mob melee miss rate when mostly unbuffed (assuming armor/bark if that's used to hit the cap as they're both fairly long duration spells), I'll choose the latter every single time (the hp difference is minimal and the int difference between elf and human invoker sustained dps is only 15% ish and that's assuming religious memout, without memout the difference is effectively 0%). Besides you have the spare points, you don't need that many inventory slots, a 50ish in dex is fine there.

Why is maxint such a small boost? Based on data at 100 int, an elf memorizes spells 31.25% times faster than a human, at 50 maxint (very high end if at all possible) for each it's 28.57% or so. Let's assume that the elf memorizes 25% faster. Spell memorization is less than half a mages time usage. Let's say for a human things are a ratio of 50/50 memorization/casting (about right). Then for an elf, it's 38/50, and about 56.76% of the elf's time is spent casting as opposed to 50% of the humans. This is a boost of 13.51%.

That's a small boost as things go for a big jump in int. Maxint gear isn't really worth wearing after the innate portion that comes from your race. Yes it's a stat to optimize along with hp/ac/saves, but not one to really strive to hit a really high # with. The difference between 124 and 148 int for a human is about a 5.0% increase in dps effectiveness which isn't worth the loss in AC/HP/saves you can make up by not falling in love with maxint. For an elf, relatively the same gap (123 to 147) is worth about a 5.9% dps improvement. Also these gains are only realized when 100% memout is utilized. The less you memout, the less any maxint matters (waiting for memorization when there's no combat going on doesn't count the same way shortening "dangerous" combat times does)


Why push up int on nonmages? Just where I'd dump the spare points. I have no data that says it's a good thing, but I'd be willing to bet it's better than power or charisma for most characters, and maybe better than another inventory slot by pushing dex up.

Flavor your stats as you desire, but the above is my allocation.

(edit: corrected my elf dps improvement, it's 5.9% for going from 123 to 147)
(edit: I knew there was something wrong with the numbers, some things tweaked if you care about exact figures, overall still the same point that maxint doesn't really give major improvements)
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Latreg » Sun Oct 19, 2008 11:56 pm

Shevarash wrote:I'm not initially opposed to the idea, and I will bring it up with tthe rest of the staff for further discussion and get back to you.


should this idea go forth, is the programing set up to handle this easily? Personally I don't see a down side, the older players should have the same advantages as the new, more so actually given the amounts of time and effort put into the game. I'm sure some people have just re-rolled, pleveld and switched their old names, but that's a time sink imo.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:51 am

Any news on this Shev? Thanks.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Eilistraee » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:53 am

Well I'm not shev but I have this on my radar. Looking into the options even now in fact.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:45 am

Would be awesome Eili.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Eilistraee » Mon Oct 20, 2008 4:47 am

Came together fairly quickly, look for something in the next week or two as testing permits.
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Pril » Mon Oct 20, 2008 1:58 pm

Rock on! Pril is tired of wearing Sunstones for con! :p
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Ardessa Moonblade » Tue Oct 21, 2008 3:59 pm

Very cool Eil, happy to hear about this. I'm sure everyone appreciates this fix.
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Shevarash GCC: 'Funny - sometimes we do stuff like that. Add in some neat thing like weight-dependant stun, and THEN DON'T TELL ANYONE FOR A DECADE.'
amena wolfsnarl
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Tue Oct 21, 2008 4:35 pm

Question about this. Will this apply to only chars rolled on the old system or can say a newb who rolled his shaman without knowing what he was doing get in on this too :)
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Eilistraee
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Eilistraee » Tue Oct 21, 2008 6:17 pm

Any character will have access to one stat reset.

It will be using the point buy approach that will be used (and is implemented on) the 2.0 engine. The biggest question mark right now is the value of points to assign.
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therdann
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby therdann » Tue Oct 21, 2008 9:19 pm

Sweet.. can I restart my level 58!.. I need goto so bad :P
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Thilindel » Tue Oct 21, 2008 11:59 pm

Sorry, you're a mere mortal now. Nobody loves you.
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therdann
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby therdann » Wed Oct 22, 2008 12:58 am

Im still a god in my own mind! You must be a pointy ear elf
Eilistraee
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Eilistraee » Sat Nov 01, 2008 5:04 pm

The implementation of this has been delayed by about a week.
Eilistraee
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Eilistraee » Mon Nov 10, 2008 7:13 am

Code: Select all

11/10/08               [Eilistraee] Put the dice away
   - The ability to point-buy your character's stats is here.  This option is available
     to everybody but only available once.  It will NOT let you match the potential
     available via extensive auto-rolling, but it will provide an upgrade to characters
     generated under harsher restrictions on character generation.  See help restat to
     read a little about it.


Just to clarify, the option to start the point-buy process is available once. Once you've started it, you can spend your points as leisurely as you wish.
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Adriorn Darkcloak
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Re: Can we restat our old characters?

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Mon Nov 10, 2008 5:29 pm

Eili, thank you very much for this. As far as I can tell everyone thanks you for this. :)
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