Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Thilindel » Fri Jul 25, 2008 10:29 pm

Ok, after listening to some GCC last night, it seems that the general feeling is that squids are weak. Basically, they're invoker/druids that don't do invoker power, nor can heal like druids. So was curious to see how others feel, pro or con.


(Not sure why this is in this instead of gameplay. I was in Gameplay when I entered it..)
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Botef » Fri Jul 25, 2008 11:24 pm

They could use some work being a niche class but I wouldn't say they are weak. Some of the fastest Izans runs I've seen were with 4-5 squids.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Gukov » Sat Jul 26, 2008 4:18 am

Only been playing my squid for a lil while now and not even zoned with it yet, but I can give some feedback.

Squid single target damage seems to suck more than it 'should'. Have done a bit of smoke xp with mine and telekinetic thrust sucks hard compared to chanter offense... not even comparing voker. I suppose if you sat a squid and a chanter in a room and didn't let either rest the squid could deal more damage over time, but that situation never really comes up. One telekinetic thrust uses like 35 psp and lags you for 2.5 rounds.

Squid area damage seems decent, haven't really had the opportunity to test it in any serious situation. Ultrablast like 80 psp, 2.5-3 rounds. The !feedback deal on this seems to be 'the' reason why squids can be valuable for something other than xport. Not good enough really.

Mindblast is useful for the frequent stun effect. I think it should have a good chance of blinding/feebing the target also at higher levels. 17ish psp, one round lag.

Project force is good as far as damage/psp is concerned. Can't be used vs immaterial and the bash effect is pretty unreliable. 17ish psp, 2 round lag. No real complaints about this one.

The combatmind on player effect was cool until it got changed so that you can only use it on people that follow you. Was it really that overpowered?

Basically, I'd summarize it this way: Squids should be reworked so that somebody would reasonably and knowledgeably consider playing one as a primary char. Make them as useful as any other support class.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Aug 01, 2008 6:15 am

Squids need something that is for sure. I was messing around in Ix last night waiting for a brain golem to move so I could get something from an npc. I attacked an illithid priest who was what appeared to be mage/psi, possibly a little cleric and a whole lot of monk. He was critting me almost every hit, dim'ing and tossing out project forces like no tomorrow. He coned needle at 47, well that was a helluva big needle. I went to DK and dominated as many big mobs as I could, all with 400+ hps went back and I nearly died. Telekinetic wasn't doing crap, ultrablast wasnt doing crap, my project forces paled in comparison to it's, and it wasted all my pets in no time. Runs on it were impossible.

Then I start taking to casters of other classes and say something about needing x item and they're like "oh yeah i can solo that in 2 runs." WTF a squid with a pack of tanks can't solo a corpse. I've heard a few times the race wars won't be removed because evils are too powerful. Well it sure a hurm isnt squids that are doing the over powering.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Disoputlip » Fri Aug 01, 2008 2:45 pm

I don't think there is enough qualified feedback in this thread to say psi needs an upgrade.

Who knows, mabye you could have dominated a lot of lowlevel cleric and warrior mobs and have them quake and bash the target to death. (just like player illithids fall to quake so does npc).

There are a few skills I wish was more critical. I would assume dangersense is cool in clouds, but I doubt there are many illithids leading cloud as psi. I know tower is good e.g. in spob, but we easily manage without (especially due to quake).

I hope, if psi gets an upgrade, that it isn't damage that will become their nieche. Util, self buff or dominate would be cooler I think.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby fobble » Fri Aug 01, 2008 3:15 pm

My squid is 46 and only zoned 2-3 times.

First, regarding squid solo power. Yeah squid is not for soloing, if you'd like solo power...try the ones we already know about like ele, necro/lich, or rog.

Second squid is basically a speedy taxi with decent damage output. Summary is that on individual basis, imo 1 squid cannot outdamage a rogue or 1 invoker. Even in group of 2 i say we can't outdamage 2 rogue or 2 invoker. I think once we hit 3 squid or more than we can outdamage everyone else because no feedback but still need to bring 1 illusionist to maintain the damage output.

Things that could be done to make squid more fun to gameplay or 'upgrade' is adding more effects to our skills or adding a new skill that has effect with great effect. While we can stun and bash using our psi skill, its not reliable at all. You don't see leaders going, hey Squid you keep XXX bashed (aka trip) or hey Squid you area to knock em off balance (aka quake effect). I think increasing % of success of stun or bash would make squid more fun and upgraded.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Aug 01, 2008 5:17 pm

After a certain point a warrior is virtually !fail bash. After a certain point a rogue is virtually !fail trip. After a certain point a squid bashes < perfectly. Bash with project force doesn't need to be 100%. But into the 90% range would be nice. Samething for mindblast. Or leave project force as it is and add a bash effect to telekintic thrust that is reliable. Maybe an upgrade to mindblast too? Psychic scream or something.

I'm not asking for squids to be solo powerhouses, far from it. But shouldn't it stand to reason that I should not almost die every time to a needle con? I even brought friends.

Does tower of iron will do anything? I've tested it against psi mobs and don't really see a difference. I will admit I haven't tested it against a huge number of mobs over a huge deal of time. But a few hours worth. I guess it is possible that since I tested it as a psi that I already was resisting as much damage as I was going to. A better test would be to test it on someone who isn't a psi.

Dominate/mass dominate: how about a 3rd skill that is the opposite of mass dominate. It allows you to dominate 1 higher level mob (not higher than the squid, just higher than a normal dominate). Nothing enough to make it a pet class, just a little assistance. Or change up the way it is handled. Allow for a certain number of levels to be dominated. Just for starters (level-15)*2. So at level 30 you could have 30 levels of domination. 30 level 1 mobs, 2 level 15s, a level 20 and a level 10.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Thilindel » Fri Aug 01, 2008 9:43 pm

Disoputlip wrote:I don't think there is enough qualified feedback in this thread to say psi needs an upgrade.

Who knows, mabye you could have dominated a lot of lowlevel cleric and warrior mobs and have them quake and bash the target to death. (just like player illithids fall to quake so does npc).

There are a few skills I wish was more critical. I would assume dangersense is cool in clouds, but I doubt there are many illithids leading cloud as psi. I know tower is good e.g. in spob, but we easily manage without (especially due to quake).

I hope, if psi gets an upgrade, that it isn't damage that will become their nieche. Util, self buff or dominate would be cooler I think.


"< 556h/556H 133v/133V >
< P: std > h dominate
DOMINATE
Psionic Ability.

Syntax: dominate <victim>
Area of effect: <victim>
Duration: Depending on the proficiency of the psionicist
Aggressive: Yes
Class/Level: Psionicist 23rd
Type of Ability: Telepathy

Dominate attempts for the mentalist to invade the victim's mind and
take it over. Victims of domination will do anything their new master
asks them to do without question.

Note: Casting mobiles cannot be dominated.

(Am I missing something here?) If you can't dominate casters, what'cha talking about?
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Disoputlip » Sat Aug 02, 2008 9:17 am

ya, sorry. noticed that aswell, i should have checked that. But that doesn't change the base of my comment.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:26 pm

Disoputlip wrote:ya, sorry. noticed that aswell, i should have checked that. But that doesn't change the base of my comment.

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:I went to DK and dominated as many big mobs as I could, all with 400+ hps went back and I nearly died.

I had 6 or 7 mobs dominated. I fled out of the room and came back, all but 2 were dead already. Nothing had the time to bash.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby spunionring » Sat Aug 02, 2008 4:52 pm

I dont think anyone is unsatisfied with squid damage. Its decent without being overpowered. Personally i just dont like that being the squid nitch.

I would like to see more utility added.

i agree stuns and bashes are too unreliable.

adding possible blind and silent procs to a skill would be nice, rounding out the class some (probably synaptic static?)

flesh armor proccing stone seems kinda weak. i can buy stone wands.. this would be a cool skill if i could use it on pets or players.. but also having an additional defensive skill wouldnt hurt, displace/blur/mirror image all seem to fit the flavor of squid well enuff..

btw we need dispel psionics! also di and clairvoyance.

And yes, i think that the dominate aspect of squids has been under emphasized. dominate is pretty much just for food, or an hp meatshield that lasts maybe a couple rounds. I think that dominate could be a cool way to redefine squids. by enabling them to get pets that either A) cast or B) can tank for more than a couple rds vs the mobs that other classes solo, would make the class more fun to play solo or 2 man instead of just waiting to blast on tuesday zones.

These are the 2 directions i would be happy to see squids move in:
1) pet oriented necro style builds
2) utility oriented druid style (with decent utility skills pets are unnecessary or with a tank could make a decent 2man team)

regards,
another squid lover that hates just being damage taxi
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Disoputlip » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:37 pm

this is a wierd debate of mob psi strength and player psi strength.

i assume if telekintic trust gets upgrade, then mobs version also get upgrade.

psi mobs have a fairly bad AI. E.g. they stand up after beeing bashed, so you can almost bash them like a mage. When they are using single target then they always target the tank. they never directly cast a spell toward you if a pet is tanking.

I must admit most of my testing is with one specific psi. a diviner on airship. so mabye he isnt representative for psi in general. (he also bash very easy after he has enlarged himself)
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Thilindel » Sat Aug 02, 2008 7:45 pm

I think the !caster domination is unfair. A mob is a mob is a mob. Squids are definitely not like a necromancer or lich. I don't understand after hearing even more input ingame. I was watching the damage and definitely wasn't impressed. Squids are weak vs. druids. They're weak vs. Necromancers. They may have their own class, but unless you stack them in a zone, what's the point? Any god input? Compared to the D&D orgin, I believe so far, that squids are fairly way way lacking vs. anything 'watered down' even resembling a true illithid/other squidwards. I never really found illithids and how they can kill in one touch, in the mud's version.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Thilindel » Wed Aug 06, 2008 4:11 am

Why do mobs get mr vs. squids.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Botef » Wed Aug 06, 2008 2:41 pm

Could make squids dominate point based like necro/lich pets.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Kegor » Thu Aug 07, 2008 12:47 am

The way squids are currently, dominate is a skill that is only used as a quick psp fill. Anyone who attempts it otherwise will find that they are wasting thier time trying to solo with a squid. You cannot dominate mobs with any magic ability whatsoever, it tells you thier mind is too strong for that sort of thing, so low level healing and utility spells are even a no go.

I'm not sure why I responded or why you guys are bothering with this thread. It is a well known fact that squids suck for anything except for moving groups around and that squids are being completely redone in 2.0.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Thilindel » Thu Aug 07, 2008 1:53 am

2.0's been in the works for three? years.

It'd be nice for another band-aid meanwhile. You can only log on so many times to xp alts with 20+ ppl that are on.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby grundar » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:29 am

i'd be happy with shev spilling the beans about squids in 2.0, i mean every class has been talked about, why is there no development post about squids.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri Aug 08, 2008 1:34 am

Actually still havent heard anything special about Shamans yet......Please tell us!
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Kegor » Fri Aug 08, 2008 11:50 pm

Thilindel wrote:2.0's been in the works for three? years.

It'd be nice for another band-aid meanwhile. You can only log on so many times to xp alts with 20+ ppl that are on.


Well it just seems ridiculous to me that you guys keep bugging them with this kind of stuff. The more crap you give them to look at or think about here related to the current Toril version is more time taken away from production of 2.0. And you wonder why 2.0 is taking so long? Trivial garbage that has already been talked about many years ago still consumes people when a new version of the game draws closer to completion.

If they take the 8 man hours needed to repair squids, or any other single issue for that matter, you think people will magically decide to play more in the current version of the mud? You think it would be worth putting it toward that instead of a new release of the game? Think about it.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Thilindel » Sat Aug 09, 2008 3:13 am

Three years to do anything is excessive. No one is certain that anything is being done as Forgers MIA so sporadically. An intermediate fix isn't at all too much to ask. It was over a year and a half ago, that I was told by someone high that 2.0 was 80% done. Then an acute loss in interest, so there you go.

It does remind me of how someone needs a new car - yet in the meantime, have to keep driving a different car that breaks down and has blatantly wrong things. The logic wouldn't be 'ignore it and keep putting up with it' I'd assume said owner would want repair for a healthy atmosphere and prospect *shrug*
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Kegor » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:00 am

* stupid post edited out *
Last edited by Kegor on Mon Aug 11, 2008 11:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby grundar » Sat Aug 09, 2008 9:37 am

Thilindel wrote:It was over a year and a half ago, that I was told by someone high that 2.0 was 80% done.

there's your problem right there. you should know better than to listen to someone high.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Thilindel » Sat Aug 09, 2008 7:56 pm

What I was saying is when the forgers are gone, and we're just playing a roller coaster on cruise control, it gets annoying to have to deal with certain things that are the proverbial ''dead horse''
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Ragorn » Mon Aug 11, 2008 2:58 pm

Thilindel wrote:What I was saying is when the forgers are gone, and we're just playing a roller coaster on cruise control, it gets annoying to have to deal with certain things that are the proverbial ''dead horse''

Get in line behind the Rangers, bud.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Shevarash » Mon Aug 11, 2008 4:49 pm

Not gone. Still working on 2.0, which, you know fixes a lot of these issues. Thanks.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:52 pm

Thanks for poking your head in Shev. Any chance there could be some bandaids for squids until 2.0? Improvement to the bash chance for project force and/or increased stun for mind blast.

And I think that as far as dominating casters, it shouldn't be impossible but very hard compared to melee classes. And casters shouldn't retain their spell casting ability as they're basically mindless drones once dominated.
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby Maedor » Wed Aug 13, 2008 2:14 am

Why is 2.0 being billed as the savior of toril? I'd rather see fixes put in place to correct today's game for today's players, instead of putting our eggs in a basket and praying to the mud_nerd gods that 2.0 magically makes people like playing muds again....
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Re: Squidly concerns ** Move to gameplay pls!**

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Dec 04, 2009 1:35 am

A year and a third later, no 2.0 and nothing for psis.

We took a group of evils to fire plane, squid did no noticeable damage at all. Tried again later with same group but swapped psi for invoker and mobs were dropping very fast.

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