The Problems with Support Classes

[spunionring]

There are some major problems with Cleric / Ench especially, but also Shaman and basically most casters...


A) Hardest work in zones: Meming out / glancing / spelling group etc, requires not only that you be at keys, but you have to work your ass off for a few hours straight. Whereas tanks/hitters can just run resc scripts and mash assist over and over (autoassist) for a whole zone.

B) Pain to exp. Often caused by lack of damage. Accentuated by the fact that these classes are also the most likely to die.

C) Lack of soloability. Shrugs not sure that this is much of a problem, but I would be happy to see all classes having at least *some* level of soloability. This is accentuated by a small pbase, and is especially a problem for ppl who dont log in at peak times.



I bring these points up mainly because there seems to be a big problem getting people to play these classes in zones. We can get all the wars/rangs/rogs we need, but whos gonna ench/cler/sham is often an issue.

[Corth]

I was criticizing the move towards more specialized roles since early in Soj 2. Mostly in the context of invoker vs. enchanter. I thought both of those classes were too single dimensional. Preferred the old sorceror class which was more well rounded between offense and defense. Illusionists appealed to me in the current wipe because in terms of balance they were a lot like the old sorc class.

Likewise, the case can be made for the clerical class too, which is kind of a one trick pony. Obviously you need a lot of experience and skill to master that single trick, but it never seemed like a particularly fun class to play.

[amena wolfsnarl]

There are some major problems with Cleric / Ench especially, but also Shaman and basically most casters...


A) Hardest work in zones: Meming out / glancing / spelling group etc, requires not only that you be at keys, but you have to work your ass off for a few hours straight. Whereas tanks/hitters can just run resc scripts and mash assist over and over (autoassist) for a whole zone.

B) Pain to exp. Often caused by lack of damage. Accentuated by the fact that these classes are also the most likely to die.

C) Lack of soloability. Shrugs not sure that this is much of a problem, but I would be happy to see all classes having at least *some* level of soloability. This is accentuated by a small pbase, and is especially a problem for ppl who dont log in at peak times.



I bring these points up mainly because there seems to be a big problem getting people to play these classes in zones. We can get all the wars/rangs/rogs we need, but whos gonna ench/cler/sham is often an issue.

What donny's saying about the xping is right, at least make it as easy to xp these classes as it is a rogue give em better xp tables or something. (sorry not much help for ideas there but rogues can hit 0 to 50 in no time meanwhile other classes just crawl)

As far as solobility its pretty much a specialty for some of the classes i perfer classes that have an element of soloability, Rogue, elem, shaman, and illus it adds some more to the game specially when no one else is around.

I've heard talk of not just the people in the room getting xp but those meming out getting it as well, this would make life a little better for the caster types with out a doubt, would have to make some rules or something about this to avoid it to be used to plvl someone's alt and not have them in any danger at all, but still i think it would make a difference to a lot of the casters out there.

[Dugmaren]

A) Hardest work in zones: Meming out / glancing / spelling group etc, requires not only that you be at keys, but you have to work your ass off for a few hours straight. Whereas tanks/hitters can just run resc scripts and mash assist over and over (autoassist) for a whole zone.

I think the problem here is with every OTHER class. I always have the most fun when I'm challenged to do 15 things at once and what differentiates me as a good/bad player is choosing the right thing to do. As a warrior if you have to bash the caster, disarm the rogue and rescue the caster or the ranger.. you have a choice to make, that's good.

Enchanters I think fall reasonably in there with a choice of what to do, but I agree with clerics.. roll vits and .. well.. in the non-elf tank groups heal. That's just busy work. Haven't shaman'd high level but I assume that's just roll gheals.. maybe silence or hex or something but, you know what I mean.

Bottom line - every class should have multiple viable actions to choose from, ideally.

Dug

[kiryan]

I think part of the problem with clerics in particular is how the gameplay has evolved and probably how vit is used vs was designed.

For many years group design included 2 clerics 1 enchanter 2-3 warriors 1-2 shaman. Before major fights you would do a spellup. In recent years that has dropped to 1 cleric 1 enchanter 1 shaman, but group sizes remain at 15 and we roll spells. At the same time, we've seen a return to low hp melee classes maxing out hit/dam (rogue/ranger) and a trend away from high hp invokers.

I don't think vit was designed to be rolled through an entire zone... it wasn't designed to be rolled through a whole zone by 1 cleric. The dynamic has changed and we're trying to bang a square peg through a round hole which of course is frustrating. I'm a the forefront of offenders, I hate shaman and druid vitting. I hate making the vit list so I just do it all.

The question in my mind is this a problem of leadership group composition and strategy or is this an administrative strategic direction for the game where the tools lagged behind. It seems we could solve alot of the boringness of clericing if 1 cleric didn't try to do the job of 2 clerics. I remember one of sok's primary group selection factors was to minimize how long spellup took. Inviting a necro if he had lots of melee. an extra cleric or druid if he didn't have enough vitters. Sok certainly wasn't a power gamer, but he hated spellups and often played cleric so his groups were priest heavy so he didn't have to do anything.

I wonder if we returned to taking 2 clerics to every zone, would clerics find it more enjoyable? You'd have more time to melee and cast offensive spells... to feel like your contributing in a more significant way than managing 12 vits. If its a strategic direction for the game set forth by the designers, then the tools might need updating. longer lasting vits or group vit or make shaman/druid vits = cleric vits in size and duration. However, if its simply a matter of game dynamics, then clerics may need to go on strike until leaders make one extra person per group play cleric instead of ranger/rogue.

food for thought

[Botef]

I happen to like specialization when the usefulness of it is apparent and leaves room for player skill. Echoing Corths thoughts I think Illusionist is THE best mage class. I think what I like best about illusionists is that there is a lot of room for variance in skill. Any old illusionist can keep a group displaced but the skillful ones also know when and what to spook, when to use utility spells, saving a group from a full spank or cr'ing/scouting after one. But to be specific, spook is really what makes illusionists such a fun class to play in groups. It provides a very effective niche unique to 1 specialized class that can make or break a lot of fights, and its also a spell that requires the right skill and timing to use effectively. I think if more of the caster classes had their own unique niche like spook, one that requires some skill and practice to master, those classes would be a lot more enjoyable to play.

[amena wolfsnarl]

I happen to like specialization when the usefulness of it is apparent and leaves room for player skill. Echoing Corths thoughts I think Illusionist is THE best mage class. I think what I like best about illusionists is that there is a lot of room for variance in skill. Any old illusionist can keep a group displaced but the skillful ones also know when and what to spook, when to use utility spells, saving a group from a full spank or cr'ing/scouting after one. But to be specific, spook is really what makes illusionists such a fun class to play in groups. It provides a very effective niche unique to 1 specialized class that can make or break a lot of fights, and its also a spell that requires the right skill and timing to use effectively. I think if more of the caster classes had their own unique niche like spook, one that requires some skill and practice to master, those classes would be a lot more enjoyable to play.

Im assuming your talking about the fact that spook stuns enemy mobs, shaman's also have this ability, spirit wrack, the only single target spell for shamans pretty much (spirit knife just dont cut it) usually in zones shaman's are too busy to take advantage of this spell as we are usually trying to hex/sil/gheal and quake too for that matter. But there are times where i like to lead with a spirit wrack to stun the mob for a sec so the group has a couple extra seconds to get off some silences or other spells like that.

[Thilindel]

Awhile back, I remember someone saying that the stun rate was hosed for spirit wrack. At least it's not worthless like ice layer for elementalists hehe

[Corth]

Spirit wrack is lame just like pretty much all area spells. Not much skill involved in nuking, or in this case, stunning, a room. Proper spook targeting is definitely one of the various illusionist skills that separate the men from the boys.

[spunionring]

Spirit wrack is lame just like pretty much all area spells. Not much skill involved in nuking, or in this case, stunning, a room. Proper spook targeting is definitely one of the various illusionist skills that separate the men from the boys.

Spirit Wrack is a targeted spell, not an area.

[Thilindel]

Pretty sure he confused Spirit Wrack with Nightmare - and yeah, Nightmare definitely didn't seem to be worth the quest. Let alone the stupid lag after casting

[Ragorn]

Honestly, after playing Duris for so many years, I can't even imagine trying to play an Enchanter or Cleric on Toril. I just don't have the patience or desire to keep vits up on 15 people all at the same time. It's not fun, it's not challenging, and it's not a test of player skill. It's just annoying button mashing prior to fights.

Group globe, group stone, group vit, group haste.

Seriously.

[Thilindel]

Had I said that, Ross would have bitched and whined that I was 'dumbing down the game' However, you're 100% right. I've asked for group type spells before. Group fly, divine blessing, group barkskin...they all HELP and make the game more enjoyable. *shrug*

Keeping groups spelled up is like XP'g. It's pointless jumping through hoops. But what is XP since you only raise the CAP of skills. Skills practice ..woo, the game's cursed with timesinks!

[amena wolfsnarl]

Pretty sure he confused Spirit Wrack with Nightmare - and yeah, Nightmare definitely didn't seem to be worth the quest. Let alone the stupid lag after casting

Nope wasnt talking about nightmare at all i was tallking about the shaman single target spirit wrack.

[Corth]

Spirit wrack is lame just like pretty much all area spells. Not much skill involved in nuking, or in this case, stunning, a room. Proper spook targeting is definitely one of the various illusionist skills that separate the men from the boys.

Spirit Wrack is a targeted spell, not an area.

My bad.. I thought spirit wrack was essentially the same as nightmare. Cast at one target but stun the room. Been a while, you know? :)

[Thilindel]

Nope wasnt talking about nightmare at all i was tallking about the shaman single target spirit wrack.

Oh I knew you meant spirit wrack..that was the topic too. I was saying Corth misunderstood. Cuz nightmare's stun is totally unreliable and pretty much the spell isn't worth the quest.

[Corth]

It was super powerful early in wipe. Think.. 3 man kostchtchie type twinks. Dartan was l337

[Disoputlip]

Those that cleric should be better at splitting vits.

Shamans can get 4, druids can get 3. Then one cleric can take the important vits.

There is so much +max_wis that it is fairly easy to get a fairly good notch. Top clerics even have timestop every 24 minutes, meaning they have it x1 before many major battles during zonage.

Personally I have a few issues that I think would have a huge impact.
-Casting time of vit
-Duration of vit
-Quickchant

What would make cleric most easy would be a lowering of the casting time of vit. Mabye lowering it to the stone level.

A duration of vit would make it easier to cleric, but it would make the cleric less powerful because it would mean less healing power over time.

The quickchant is also sometimes interesting. A failed quickchant is often a reason the tank etc. dies. I seem to fail it more than my mages, but maybe that is just bad luck.

[kiryan]

a tank dies because stone/displace/blur weren't on him not because cleric failled a QC.

I don't see the point of max wis. I know some do, but I don't see piling on all this max wis gear to lose a second of mem on a spell. very very very few fights would 1 second make a difference and most of the time you are waiting on the enchanter to finish memming / spelling up, so it doesn't matter how fast you mem.

It would be nice if there was some EQ way (or exp metaing) to affect cast time or spell power or spell duration. I advise against using stats like wis or int because of racial bonuses.

[spunionring]

a tank dies because stone/displace/blur weren't on him not because cleric failled a QC.

I don't see the point of max wis. I know some do, but I don't see piling on all this max wis gear to lose a second of mem on a spell. very very very few fights would 1 second make a difference and most of the time you are waiting on the enchanter to finish memming / spelling up, so it doesn't matter how fast you mem.

It would be nice if there was some EQ way (or exp metaing) to affect cast time or spell power or spell duration. I advise against using stats like wis or int because of racial bonuses.

Spell Focus

[kiryan]

I'd suggest 3 different "skills" or foci vs 1 as to make the absolute time sink larger and giving players with more time to dedicate to their character and set them apart. Really eq based would be the worst option since you can then transfer it to any character you want. I'd prefer to see it based on either EXP, or "zone points" duris style, or platinum / points from "sacing" eq.

Character development in this game is virtually dead, there is only eq development.

[Gormal]

Attainable restrings.
Tradeskills.
New specializations.

Also: Make a healthy portion of restrung equipment bound to one character. That will effectively reduce the amount of gear in the game.

[kwirl]

Duris did specializations right, Toril did them wrong. Too late to change that, though.

I don't understand why they have done so much to make melee more powerful, but for the love of gods I can't find a way to convince them to make haste or globe or vit last longer.