The Next Tiamat Run

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
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The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Fri Feb 13, 2009 4:30 am

So lets talk plainly about why Tiamat hasn't been done in so long.

1) Influential people encouraging others by their in/actions to not attend. People have signed up and not shown, talked shit about the potential group rather than encourage their guild to go, even started conflicting runs prior to other ones which has ruined those. Guess what, no matter how awesome you think you are; you're still hurting anyone who wants to go.

2) Claimed items. I'm sorry to those who have a lot of points or are up for claims, but this needs to go away. As it stands you can't promise people that Tiamat will happen more often that once every six months. That means that with a claim every time, they can expect a 2.5 year wait for the top end item they want. Let me say that again: TWO ANd A HALF YEARS before they have a chance to get there item. Maybe if we get it going every months, claims can come back but until then they have to go away. Along the same lines, you have to keep a cap on how many points people can get or you're gonna get the same problem. Basically the entire bid system needs to be revised for the next run.

3) Encouraging new leaders. Lilithelle leads at least 5 nights a week, with some of us filling in as we can, but no one wants to follow non-Lili people. Take a fucking chance to get people cred and maybe 1/20 of those will be able to lead Tiamat. People are way to content to rest on their laurels, especially when there's no risk of eq loss anymore. Back in the old days it made sense to not follow new leaders sometimes, but now its just because you are afraid you won't be handed your eq after pushing your inferno macro 100 times. (Some people shouldn't lead and you should not follow them, don't misconstrue my words, fag.)
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Shevarash » Fri Feb 13, 2009 3:18 pm

I'd be interested in hearing feedback about the zone itself as well.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Ardessa Moonblade » Fri Feb 13, 2009 6:44 pm

I've been twice since the Tiamat changes went in. Regretfully, I did have to cancel on at least 4 or more trips I had signed up for. It is tough to schedule 8-10 hours or more of zoning when your wife hates mudding like mine does.

I think the upgrades are incredible; it makes the old Tiamat zone w/ just the baby reds & consorts before Tia look like crap. The demon after the ancient blue dragon is particularly a nice touch. It really is a ton of demons then dragons to go through, and very well executed.

On the flip side, it was a plus to be able to finish Tiamat in 3 hours. Of course, that was also back when you could get the full heal pendant from the ress quest reward in a 30 minute Labyrinth run. The part of the playing field has obviously been leveled as well.

I don't know if there is an easy answer. A run on Silverymoon Invasion taking 6-8 hours and causing a huge fight IRL is part of why I've taken a sabbatical from zoning; if I had been on a Tia run, it would have obviously been even worse. I can imagine other people being put in similar situations with their spouses or significant others.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Dalar » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:01 pm

Why would you spend 6-8 hours doing a zone? Would be nice if you could save your progress every 3 hours on a zone somehow. Perhaps making checkpoints that give you an item that can be used later to clear that section of a zone on a different boot. Hell even i'd do Tiamat if it was done for 3 hours every Saturday over 3 weeks.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Ragorn » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:07 pm

Easy enough, separate zone into 3 parts, have boss from part 1 give rentable key to part 2, and so on.

See also: Ny'neth on Duris ;)
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:15 pm

4-5 hours should be the norm for Tia runs in its current incarnation, no?
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Thrand » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:27 pm

There is no evidence that enuf people aren't going to tiamat because of the bid system,
if you know of some evidence, post it here. Also while you are at it why don't you post
the names of these people who you think convinced people not to go to tiamat and or
actively tried to thwart runs. I'd like to avoid helping them in the future.

The player base is the problem.

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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Fri Feb 13, 2009 7:58 pm

You're up for a claim, so its not like you aren't biased. The evidence is that at the current rate of completed Tiamat runs, it is nearly 3 years until you'll get even a chance at a circlet. You tell me how thats realistic. The playerbase is, was, and will continue to be the problem and the bid system (for now) is just another thing that discourages people from going. The claims made sense when we were doing Tiamat monthly, but right now they're just an obstacle.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Thrand » Fri Feb 13, 2009 8:21 pm

You keep making statements without any stated evidence.

Backup what you say, don't give me your opinion.

Or start out what you post by saying, I'm talking out my ass here but here's
what came to me in a dream.

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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Raiwen » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:01 pm

It's not average of 6 hours Tia.

That's average of last 3 BEST times with BEST group make up.

I had family obligations last few Tia runs, and complicate that by poor group make up = greater than 6 hour Tia.

The time I could go, Xopia was MIA.

The other times, based upon group make up on the BBS, I had to decide:

(A) spend 6-12 hours with family.

(B) spend 6-12 hours in Tia with probability of it being 12 with that being directly proportional to my frustration level.

Actually, to be fair, I only was able to make that choice one time, as my girlfriend was pretty clear on the other days that Saturday or Sunday was an Afternoon Mud Free Time period.

So for me, it was time vs reward vs frustration level. Group make up is key for Tia, and a poor Tia group means high frustration and hours wasted. Not everyone can go to Tia. That's just the way it is.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Kissa » Fri Feb 13, 2009 10:50 pm

evidence: 6 months since last tia run.

maybe its coincidence that it is because the next run has 2 people up for claim. but im know of a couple people who were reluctant to go just because of this. I am not saying names though.

Why go to tia if all you need is tia circlet, and you cant bid it for like at least the next two runs ( i think more people are up for claim after the next run as well.. if they go).

note: this is not my attitude, i need much more tia gear than just circlet. I chose not to go for reasons similar to Ardessa many of the times.

before that it was being done every month ? every two months ? something like that ? more often then this at least...

pbase is an issue
player attitudes are an issue
too many issues

just pwipe. all is solved. what is there to lose with pwipe ? a pbase ?
what pbase.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Ragorn » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:10 pm

Thrand wrote:You keep making statements without any stated evidence.

Backup what you say, don't give me your opinion.

Or start out what you post by saying, I'm talking out my ass here but here's
what came to me in a dream.

Lopi

Are you next in line for a claim item?

Those of us who have no stake in Tia runs would like to know where you're coming from when you defend "the way things are."
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Fri Feb 13, 2009 11:21 pm

My opinion is that you're unwilling to listen to the harsh reality that your points might have to go away, Lopi. At this point people need to do anything they can to get Tiamat runs going again or your claim will mean exactly what its meant for what could end up being a year at this rate... squat.

This is only one of the problems by the way, its just the one that people are going to cry the most about.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Raiwen » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:21 am

Gormal wrote:My opinion is that you're unwilling to listen to the harsh reality that your points might have to go away, Lopi.

You could remove the point cap, and just keep increasing points. Eventually you'll beat the odds and win the item you want. The people that are wary of claims would then feel that they have a chance to win that item, too.

Sometimes, that's all people want is to know they have a chance to win.

Honestly, I feel the same as Kissa. There are plenty of tia items I could use other than circlet(s). And last 3 times I've gone, I've bid on stuff other than circlet on 1st round. Granted, one time, someone else had the same idea, and I lost!
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 14, 2009 1:28 am

I've used a lot of point-based bid systems, and a restriction is necessary otherwise people just get shafted over and over. I'm not saying that the current system should go away forever, but if we're talking about getting interest back into doing the zone it needs to be put on hold or something for a while until things even out. We could go to one of the older systems where leader hands out one non circlet/valhalla/etc item and the rest are diced out, but if you win a top tier item you can't win anything from the top couple tiers your next trip. Just a suggestion, it has problems and such but I'm too busy right now to look at some real in depth possibilities.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby fobble » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:38 am

I know couple of people as well as myself who would want to go (as first timers) but don't because it's too long to be done in one straight day. As for the bid system, it doesn't help either and when you add that on top of long duration of Tia run. It just rules it out of question.

Honestly last time I went to Tia was like in 1995 and I was in HS so I could spend 6 hours straight playing a game...but pbase now is mostly adult and mid-age adult at that. Hard for anyone in this age group to spend 6 + hours straight doing anything due to various obligations (job, family, trips, doctors visits, etc.) and there's only 52 weekends!

Just two cents from noob
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:57 am

Evidence and a testimonial, I'll take your apology in the form of your tia eq, Lopi.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby fobble » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:02 am

To clarify, I didn't post to support one side or the other but just how I and couple others feel.

Once again tho, time dedication is the single biggest roadblock for any new comer and non-hardcore player to join in Tia run. Then that roadblock is compounded by other factors. As for claim bid system, even if item is claimed I think first timers would still go on a run just to experience the whole Tia thing for the short run. However it'll wear off quick once first timers experienced Tia runs 1~3 times. If time commitment issue is resolved in someway by some form of continuation or other methods, bid system would probably be biggest deterrent for someone like myself to go unless there's a way to gurantee everyone is grandfathered in somehow...which isn't going to happen.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Shevarash » Sat Feb 14, 2009 5:41 am

If there were a single point that marks the half-way point in the zone, what would that be? Dagos, x number of consorts down, something else?
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Thrand » Sat Feb 14, 2009 12:10 pm

I shudder to think of the state of the education system, if you think
what has been posted constituted evidence that the points system
is the reason a player base of 50 - 60 active players can't get 27 - 30
people to devote 6 - 8 hrs for a zone run.

I went when I wasn't up for a claim, and yes I expect the people
who got theirs to honor the system by going when someone else is up.

Please consider carefully the notion being floated that if you cant get 27
people to devote 8 hrs on a sat these, same people will devote 4 hrs on 2
separate day.

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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Pril » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:39 pm

Shevarash wrote:If there were a single point that marks the half-way point in the zone, what would that be? Dagos, x number of consorts down, something else?


Dagos and then right before ancients shev.

So top grid, then do all cosorts then do ancients/tia
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Pril » Sat Feb 14, 2009 3:46 pm

Before I post I'm going to preface this with the fact that I'm up for a claim next run to however...

Jake you can't claim that the reason for lack of tia runs is the point system without trying to form for one. I stopped trying to form for other reasons. Ross has tried to form 1 time in all this time i think and he was trying to form for a guild only run and didn't get enough people. So before you dismiss the notion of claims maybe try forming for a run? See what happens? I know Lopi went on a lot of runs when others were up for claims, and i definitely lead plenty of runs when people were up for claims. So try forming for a run see what happens before you just dismiss it.

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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Sat Feb 14, 2009 6:32 pm

the point system dont bug me so much as the fact that 8 hrs is hard to justify with a family and life goin on around you. Id love a shot at a circlet without a doubt, but i know people have put in the time and i understand that. If i have to wait to get a circlet thats fine, in the mean time ill bid on some of the other goodies that tia supplies.

Personally if it could be broken up it would be great i think with the pbase getting older everyone can agree that there are more important things than mudding. Only tia run i ever went on was aborted on the grid, i would love to do another but like i said i cant justify it. Maybe to make up for seperating it into 2 or 3 seperate trips you up the number of demons on the grid or even add a couple extra dragons here and there i cant really say much about this cause i never been to the end.

If it does get broken up into 2 or 3 seperate runs than we will have to look at maybe doin the bidding system a little differently, as im sure every weekend will see a different group of people going to try and finish up and its not as fair to the people who had to miss one run cause of RL and the people who made all the runs. Maybe do another style of points, give everyone who finish a part of the run 33 or 50 points, you need 100 points to make a bid on an item in the first round so u might have to wait till the next run to get a full bid, this will make sure that a person actually finishes an entire run even if its spread out over a couple of weeks. I know that will need some work without a doubt, but that all depends on if it would get broken up some.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Shevarash » Sat Feb 14, 2009 7:23 pm

I think there's a lot of truth to the arguments that the zone just takes too long to get people together. I know there's some truth to it because, as an avid gamer with family responsbilities myself, *I* couldn't possibly get 8 hours to do a zone on any game in the foreseeable future.

So, I'm not promising anything here, but let's talk about the idea of splitting up the zone with Dagos being the halfway mark. The idea would be that Dagos drops a rentable item that can be used once to break the seal into Tiamat's lair. Would that make it easier to form and execute a Tiamat raid? Would it make it too easy? Should the rentable item clear the grid, or transport the group to inside the lair? Let me know your thoughts.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Botef » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:23 pm

I'd certainly be happy to spend two nights doing it in pieces, but I dont know how effective that would be. It would be a nice option for groups that only make it half way though. Part of the problem is getting 25+ people at keys at a specified time, especially when a handful of them are in conflicting time zones.

It has nothing to do with specific players or who is leading either, its quite easy to calculate a reasonable time frame by looking at how many rangers you have signed up. The last few runs have bombed because the group list didn't fill out before hand.

One problem with claims that I suggested pretty early on was that eventually every run would have a claim and that people would instinctively wait out 5 runs. I can't blame anyone either, who wants to bid 3-4 runs worth of points on a second tier item because of a claim. Personally I think the point system itself is just fine and that if people really want to focus on one item that badly they can tough it out and stack their points till they win. Your odds are pretty good with 500 points anyways. As for the claims currently up, I'd have no issue honoring them.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:46 pm

I think that it would cause problems for the people trying to lead the zone by having to basically form 2 groups, but at least we'd be getting it done. All of the equipment being on the final boss makes it a little different than most games that allow you to split the zone up over a few days. It should clear the mobs up to and including dagos in my opinion. This could also give you the chance to retune some of the pre-dagos fights to be more caster friendly, thus encouraging a melee group for the final half, and more magical damage for the first. Right now its "watch 15 rangers kick ass".
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Sat Feb 14, 2009 8:50 pm

Botef wrote:It has nothing to do with specific players or who is leading either, its quite easy to calculate a reasonable time frame by looking at how many rangers you have signed up. The last few runs have bombed because the group list didn't fill out before hand.


You mean except for ya know... people not showing up that signed up? Or maybe people leading Tia a week before an already planned run thus ruining the other? Or maybe weeks of trash talking other leaders so people lose confidence?

Sorry, its more than just getting a bunch of rangers. Its getting bodies in general, which with this horrible pbase means you have to instill some level of confidence in people about the leader.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Ragorn » Sat Feb 14, 2009 10:38 pm

Shevarash wrote:I think there's a lot of truth to the arguments that the zone just takes too long to get people together. I know there's some truth to it because, as an avid gamer with family responsbilities myself, *I* couldn't possibly get 8 hours to do a zone on any game in the foreseeable future.

So, I'm not promising anything here, but let's talk about the idea of splitting up the zone with Dagos being the halfway mark. The idea would be that Dagos drops a rentable item that can be used once to break the seal into Tiamat's lair. Would that make it easier to form and execute a Tiamat raid? Would it make it too easy? Should the rentable item clear the grid, or transport the group to inside the lair? Let me know your thoughts.

Shev, the only danger here is that there would need to be some sort of tangible reward for doing the first half. Otherwise, what you're going to see is anemic signups for the first half, and then an explosion of signups from people who "suddenly" find room in their schedule to go do the vault half of the zone.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:08 am

Imo Shev make it so that the rentable key pops a portal to the room before dagos, we have to kill dagos again to pay for the fact that we cut the zone in 2 and make it so that the previous room no mobs from behind it can wonder in, but than again ive never been that far so u might want to ask some of the vets. I agree that we need some kind or reward for the first half to the tia run or a different point system has to be established, have to work on that end of it im sure.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby bawog » Sun Feb 15, 2009 1:54 am

Before we figured out Tiamat its was the dumbest zone ever. Still is in many aspects get rid of the in/out tactics which do nothing but put me to sleep. In terms of the bid system, I'd say QQ about it a bit and deal with it, yer never gonna please everyone, so shit on them. Its fair and gives points to those whom put in effort and actually run their scripts :-p. Otherwise the zone is for those whom have no problem dedicating several hours in front of scrolling text. Would I lead it agian? Yea I would but no way in hell I'll have a bunch of cancels.

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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Sun Feb 15, 2009 2:08 am

The bid system never punished signups who cancelled at the last minute either which I thought was stupid. Its not hard to know at least 24 hours in advance if you aren't going to come. You're making a commitment to 29 other people, and blow it off causing them to waste their time. Its telling everyone that your time is more important than everyone elses and its rude. Those people should'be lost all their points every time.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby dem » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:02 am

Hello everyone.

First I would like to let everyone know that I have no experience in doing Tiamat. However I saw that someone mentioned Duris zone Ny'neth. It's basically one zone separated into 3 with 3 "boss mobs" holding a key and equipment which lets you unlock the next portal. From my understanding tiamat has 3 "tiers" of eq. So just divide it into 3 and put tier 1 eq into the first, tier 2 into the second etc. I'm assuming that the zone gets harder and harder the deeper you travel. However, if this is not the case this solution will not be to everyones satisfaction.

/Koxa
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Dalar » Sun Feb 15, 2009 6:22 pm

Shevarash wrote:I think there's a lot of truth to the arguments that the zone just takes too long to get people together. I know there's some truth to it because, as an avid gamer with family responsbilities myself, *I* couldn't possibly get 8 hours to do a zone on any game in the foreseeable future.

So, I'm not promising anything here, but let's talk about the idea of splitting up the zone with Dagos being the halfway mark. The idea would be that Dagos drops a rentable item that can be used once to break the seal into Tiamat's lair. Would that make it easier to form and execute a Tiamat raid? Would it make it too easy? Should the rentable item clear the grid, or transport the group to inside the lair? Let me know your thoughts.


Have a rentable item you can use to clear the first grid. That way, we could use the item to get to Dagos' room to ferry people back to the zone.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Ragorn » Sun Feb 15, 2009 9:05 pm

dem wrote:Hello everyone.

First I would like to let everyone know that I have no experience in doing Tiamat. However I saw that someone mentioned Duris zone Ny'neth. It's basically one zone separated into 3 with 3 "boss mobs" holding a key and equipment which lets you unlock the next portal. From my understanding tiamat has 3 "tiers" of eq. So just divide it into 3 and put tier 1 eq into the first, tier 2 into the second etc. I'm assuming that the zone gets harder and harder the deeper you travel. However, if this is not the case this solution will not be to everyones satisfaction.

/Koxa

Hah, hey Dem. Didn't know you were still around.

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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Adriorn Darkcloak » Sun Feb 15, 2009 11:59 pm

We shouldn't be removing the point system, we should be using it in other zones too. SPOB, seelie, magma, GF, etc. I'm tired of constantly losing first round bid to someone who'll be using it on an alt they don't tend to play often. I've lost 8 times now on one item in GF. The only reason I've won items in SM has been because I've been the only bidder on it.

How does this relate to Tiamat? If I know that I'll have a chance to win an item of my choosing the nth trip I go, I won't mind losing x times before. Once you lose for several months on any item you really want, the motivation to go zoning starts to seriously take a hit.

The key to the points, however, is not to let them keep accruing until you get THE item you want. After 5 trips, you gotta make a choice, regardless of whether the item you wanted loaded or not. Points are reset to zero afterward.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby hagah » Mon Feb 16, 2009 12:43 pm

I have not wanted to go because I heard the next run there would be 2 claims.

The first run I went on a couple necros showed up in the last 20 minutes of the 6 hour debacle and got a first round pick, that plus the claim on that run removed 3 nice items out of the 8 decent ones available. I then proceeded to lose my first and second round bids, but still came back to Tia 2 more times where I lost again and again. I say keep the zone how it is, but add more items to the vault.

My single biggest gripe about this game is the time vs reward issue. In a zone like tia, or spob, bc.. it seems like there could just be a bunch of little items created, potions, lockpicks, garrotting wire, piles of platinum, summoning items, wands, niche items like +150mvs but no other stats.. whatever. At least everyone could get something out of their time investment.

I am also for a pwipe.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Thrand » Mon Feb 16, 2009 2:59 pm

Hagah

Without the point system, you could go till the end of time and not win a 1st round.
That's the whole point. You have 200 points, so unless you are mistaken you didn't go 3 times and not win anything or you would have 300 points.

I'd like to clairify something that 2 people seem to have concerns that people are going and not bidding the 1st round to amass points. I have bid and lost every 1st round to get my 500 points.

As for 2 claims being up in one trip, well sucks in some ways and not in others, your getting
rid of 2 claims in a single trip. By the way it possibly sucks most for me, since there is no
knowing what will load, and Cofen and I have already made an agreement that he would pick
1st, It is entirely possible that I will be using my claim on a non claim worthy item.

Lopi
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby hagah » Mon Feb 16, 2009 11:59 pm

I do have 300 points. After the items I wanted were taken out of the pool by the Claimants I didn't take a second round bid.

If the zone were being done every other weekend this wouldn't be a big deal. But when was the last time it was done, a year ago?
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Ardessa Moonblade » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:15 am

The last Tia trip was August I believe.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Kissa » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:03 am

didnt that fail ? when was last successful one ?
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Pril » Tue Feb 17, 2009 3:30 am

Successful one was June or July.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Ragorn » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:03 am

hagah wrote:The first run I went on a couple necros showed up in the last 20 minutes of the 6 hour debacle and got a first round pick

And that would be the last time I ever followed that leader to Tiamat.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Tasan » Tue Feb 17, 2009 1:43 pm

Thrand wrote:By the way it possibly sucks most for me, since there is no
knowing what will load, and Cofen and I have already made an agreement that he would pick 1st, It is entirely possible that I will be using my claim on a non claim worthy item.

Lopi


What planet are you from?

Yes, it certainly would suck worst for you because you'd be walking away with something while someone else wasn't. That would be really hard to do I can imagine.


Shev, suggestion:
    Downgrade the equipment across the board a bit. This game really didn't need artifacts that aren't unique.(personally I love the ideas, but when 1 piece of equipment makes a pc incredible, it's a bit much).

    Remove 35% of the mobs in the zone.

    Cap the zone at 20 players.

    I could code a one-time use teleport object that destroys everything in the Dagos room and makes a permanent portal from where it is used. I imagine you're fully capable as well.

Should make the zone viable for the lower pbase, without taking away all the lustre and work that went into it.

!!x
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Liminam » Tue Feb 17, 2009 2:15 pm

Hey there!

I never did Tiamat, but would sure like to go for all kind of reasons ... Including to have a shot at a top tier item. Here is what I understand from all this:

- Because the zone is that long to clear, it's hard to form for a run.
- Because it's hard to form for a run, there's hardly more than 2 a year.
- Because there's hardly more than 2 runs a year, the point system fails at what it's supposed to do: to give everyone a shot at top tier items.
- Because of that and 2 next claims, it gets even harder to form for a run and probably won't even get those 2 runs a year.

Option A: Forget or modify the point system so there's no more claims and try to form for a run. Without help from a god, and before reading this thread, it sounded like the only way to try and get more runs. But now, it looks like even more people would refuse to go. I pity the leader already ... It's gonna be epic to form and lead.

Option B: The zone gets broken in 2 or 3 parts, so it gets easier to form, so you can run it on a more regular basis, so the point system makes sense again. Main problem solved. There's another one to deal with now tho, how to split the loots.

Option B.1: Also break the loots in 2 parts. Keep in mind both zones would still require 30 people, so you'd have to move some very valuable stuff and make them available without actualy having to kill Tiamat. Not only it seems wrong from a RP point of vue, it would also means the zone sort of got twice shorter. On the other hand, if you keep all the good stuff for the second part of the zone and still want to move some of the loots, then you'd have to make the first one easier (cf. Option C).

Option B.2: Basicaly, either you were here for part 1 only, for part 2 only or for both. The leader should obviously try to have as much players as possible to do both, but having the very same group it's probably not something you can achieve ... When we get to see the load, there's not many options. You can ask beforehand who the people entrust their bid to, or mwrite glist to them and dice like 24h later. The point system is here to give better range/claims to those who were there for both.

Option C: Make the zone easier, if this is considered I'd actualy suggest to still break the zone in 2 parts ... First one being a regular 15 players zone with decent rewards and either 1 (for a full 30 players group) or 15 (one per player) keys for second half ... Which would still require 30 players. This requires some more thinking but I like the sound of it.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Malia » Tue Feb 17, 2009 5:46 pm

Since i have lead Tiamat prolly same as Nerox or at least participated in the forming of it.. i might as well toss in my 2cents

1) i think Point system rocks, I dont think you can please all of the people all the time, there will always be a down side to any system and you will always piss some off... but everyone has a chance to win, the people that go more often have a better chance, they deserve it because they make the zone happen by showing up. The leader should get a better bid then normal too but thats besides the point cuz they deal with all the forming the leading and all the bullshit spliting 20+ items. So someone who went 5x and lost EVERY time has 500pts, and someone who went just that time has 100pts, so even first timers have a chance.

2) i have tried several times since june to form for this, mainly in guild forums to see how many core people i can get, and have let Lil and useuly Pril to see who they can get. The most i came up with is like 18 people and i really dont want to spend 14+ hours doing a zone with only 18-20, when 5-7 more people can cut the zone time down to 7hoursish. The reason i dont open it up to everyone on bbs first is because before i waste everyones time i wanna make sure i have Key tanks, Key clerics, Key shamans. The rest can be filler but if i cant get tanks or clerics or shamans that know and trust then im not gonna waste my time or anyone elses forming for a zone thats gonna go horribly and frustrate the living hell out of me. I would say i have attempted to form at least 5x since July

3) Im not up for any claim and if a tia run were to happen i would gladly go if i had the day to mud and to help those that are up for a claim... Both Pril and Lopi have earned it FOR SURE! IF anyone wants to form for this and can get a solid core group, im all in for it!

4) Remeber its not about the eq, its not about time-vs-reward. This is Tiamat, This is the endgame eq, If you dont win you got a better chance next time. The eq in the zone is game-changing and if it takes you a year to win a piece so be it, if it takes 2 years so be it. This isnt eq that everyone should win first trip This eq should go to the people that go over and over and over again.

5) Time- I think with the current pbase that its just too hard to form and do this 6x a year like it should be. Every other month would be a good consistant run. Splitting this up into 2 or 3 days would be great. This would make it far more doable in time frames people have and make the current system work. That being said i think a quest mob at start of Tiamat that you can turn in your item to, that would set zone to where you were. ex. You finish Dagos, he gives you rentable token...next boot next weekend whenever you take that token to mob at start and it clears it to Dagos. Finish 5 consort fight and you get a token on the last dragon, again give this token to quest mob at start of Tiamat and it would clear it all the way to Tiamat. So you could break it up into 3 days 3 weekends 3 months. Only problem i see is getting SAME people. Keeping track of it for 3 runs would be horrible and trying to split end gear with a person that was there for first part, and wasnt there for eq, whos to say what they want to bid on, they cant even know what loaded to leave you a bid.

Being one of the people that does lead it, i have Yet to hear anyone tell me I dont wanna go because there are 2 claims. I have had lots of people tell me they dont have time and they cant do it on saturdays or whatever, but claims have never been an issue.

again this is jut my 2cents from someone who leads it, and has formed for it.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Jhorr » Thu Feb 19, 2009 3:05 am

Breaking up the longer zones could be a nice paradigm-shift for the MUD in general, especially considering time constraints of the current pbase. It would be cool to join campaigns instead of requiring zones to be done in their entirety in one sitting. Even on a smaller scale it would be great too for other zones besides Tiamat (e.g. get 4-5 people together and do a zone over a week or so). Zones could become more elaborate and even longer, but done over time. This is how I remember playing the original D&D anyway. The ideas above about rentable items to unlock zone parts already has at least one precident in Muspelheim with the rope that unlocks the dragon zonelet (kudos Dug!). I'm sure our wives and families would approve! Great thread!
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Drogga » Thu Feb 19, 2009 2:59 pm

my 2 cents,

point system maybe is a good system, but it was a very big frustration to me. they never get my points right on my 2nd to 4th run. after that, i just don't care anymore and bid on lower items. i still go just because i know i still have chance on 2nd tier tia eq which are still quiet tempting. the system is good but it also need to be managed precisely or people will get frustrated.

having 2 people in-line up for claims does affect my interest to join the next run unless i myself is leading it. that was one of the reason why i try to form for the run last time.

if Shev come up with the changes, we probably should continue using the point system but if not, i hope those people with points should try to accept the fact that either you have chance to bid tia eq, or no chance to bid at all. Becoz the run will never happen.

Shev,
imo, Point after red consort is good half-way point. but the number of mobs need to be reduced too to reflect to smaller group size. i like the idea that by setting up the seal at entry of tia zone, it will clear the top grid so that we can continue doing the lower grid on 2nd half. again, number of mobs in 2nd grid need to be reduced too.

as for the eq-stat, i agree that it should be downgraded a bit but plz put up some quests in tia zone that reward something like current 1st-tier, 2nd-tier tia eq.

I personally hope you will do the changes so that tia will be relevant again.

my 2 cents.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby inomah » Sun Feb 22, 2009 5:00 am

hope shev or admin got something nice result

i really wanna go tiamat

don't wanna the top end zone die like this.

i think if we don't do that zone that's zone is dead
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Disoputlip » Sun Feb 22, 2009 10:29 am

About splitting:
If the parts are equal size, then I think we could handle some kind of splitting system where everybody bids via mmail, and then the split is done in the following week.

Considering what I have won, that never gets claimed, then I consider it top of crop. Cresent amulet and cleric timestop sleeves completly changes the way you play the class. Ofcourse circlet is above all, but even getting a shot at that 1st run is not nessesary for me.

I do think a lot fewer points are used than spendt. Every trip result in 3000 points, and every trip should therefore, including claims, also roughly use 3000 points, else more and more claims will build up. I don't have the math on thisone though. It is just a hunch.


About participating:
I agree with Ross that having the core is an absolute must. I have been to a few of those 12-15h runs, and I want to avoid those at all cost, even voting for bailing if we get a start where you can see it doesn't work.
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Re: The Next Tiamat Run

Postby Gormal » Sun Feb 22, 2009 12:12 pm

Tiamat is generally a failed raid as far as modern mmo's go when considering risk/time/reward.

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