Improvements to Dayblind

Feedback, bugs, and general gameplay related discussion.
Dalar
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Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:25 am

Didn't want to get haters all up in my thread.

Anyways, what about instead of complete blindness, drow can get some vision. Instead of ARG TOO MUCH LIGHT, get the following:

A Long Hallway Covered with Paintings of Annam
-N-S
TOO MUCH LIGHT

Also, let them be able to mem and get items out of their bags.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby grundar » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:38 am

why not just allow them to see and make up for it with some combat penalties if daylight and !fog or globe of darkness in room? then you have a limited use for evil races and also a use for squids.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Pril » Tue Jul 20, 2010 1:04 pm

So for example they can see but they get a +100ac -20hit -20dam during daytime?
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dugmaren » Tue Jul 20, 2010 3:52 pm

How about a new "squint" command? You're dayblind as per usual but if you get lost or whatever you can open your eyes just a bit to glance at the room. Has a chance of looking normally (or looking infravision style), and a chance of low level blind.

What problems are we trying to deal with here?
- not seeing where you're going during travel
- not being able to memorize spells
- fighting blind
- not being able to target
- ...?

Dug
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Tue Jul 20, 2010 4:39 pm

In zones:
1. You can't follow into a dayblind room
2. I can't memorize
3. I can't area (this one's my fault, but oh well, still annoying)
4. Can't target people for heals or stones

For newbies:
1. Can't explore surface world.
2. Can't mem spells when I can't find a dark room.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Kindi » Tue Jul 20, 2010 5:18 pm

my big one is not being able to follow people. not knowing the exits of the room is just as bad if i'm solo. if i had those too things... maybe. i don't know it'd still suck but it wouldn't be game-killing
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dugmaren » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:04 pm

1. Agree you shouldn't need a squid to at least follow out of a room you can see in.
2. Memorization issue is invoker/necro only, and technically you should be able to find somewhere dark to study.
3. Don't worry, I'm never gunna give you up Brian
4. Targetting - mmm, in zones I'd think it's pretty easy to bring a dark-casting class if you want to zone during the day. That said the part of the day that's too bright lasts a little long imo.
5. Surface exploration - I think that falls well within the valid confines of RP
6. Evil disclaimer?

Currently I'm against removing dayblind because I like the theme and I distinctly remember the old school evils swearing by it. That said I agree it could use some work, or maybe a little more lovin to other abilities/stats.

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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:22 pm

The whole "evilrace is harder" mentality is Miax's way imo for a much larger pbase. Back then, harder start, better rewards. Yuan-ti and some of the other races are fantastic. However, these are different times. Lower playerbase and everyone is getting older (less time to play, want less frustrations). If people are adamant at playing evilrace only, I understand that it's their own grave. Why not encourage more people to play evilrace so we can at least get that part of the game going? Keep some aspects of Dayblind in, but make it so it's a minor hassle and not completely frustrating for even average players.

I want to avoid the whole "evils suck b/c it's annoying as hell to play because of fundamental game designs". I'm ok with evils dying because the start is tougher. I'd be OK with evils having a higher exp table since their innate stats are better.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Thilindel » Wed Jul 21, 2010 6:33 pm

As I've said before, even DDO doesn't penalize drow. That should speak volumes. Old school is just that...'OLD'. If something can't adapt and be open to change, it either becomes the cranky old man, or utterly obsolete. With 30 players, do we -really- need dayblind? If someone truly wants RP, then allow TOG DAYBLIND.

There's also the silliness of it's dusk, then BOOM, you can see perfectly the next tick. That's stupid. Waaaay back in Sojourn's history, your language was spoken in skill like good, superb, etc. The text was wrong randomly for the worse your skill was, as in 'Bob tells you 'Hxw you diink todax?' The higher the skill, the more accurate the wording. While extremely annoying, that could be a compromise. The room and ambiance descriptions would reflect a reduced visibility, if that's even necessary. This game doesn't need this aspect of blindness anymore. At least it was relatively more logical than OH SHIT SON, YOU SEE NOTHING. NO FEEDBACK BECAUSE YOU'RE BLIND, YOU EVILRACE BASTARD!
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Wed Jul 21, 2010 8:30 pm

Wow, I agree with Thilindel.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Desirsar » Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:51 am

Seriously, none of the arcane masters of the evil races have come up with a "magical dark-torch" or some other object we can purchase from vendors that work like torches for surface sighted races and will burn out eventually? As long as we can get them out of bags and "light" them like the surface races can manipulate a torch in darkness, it would be quite spiffy. Could even add (presumably quite buggy at first, heh) effects where magical lights and magical non-lights fight each other, and whichever a room has more of would "win". (That may open up some silly griefing possibilities, though.)
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gyrx » Sun Nov 21, 2010 7:23 am

I agree entirely. Please modify dayblind.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:37 am

I bet Shev really doesn't care about this one eh Jake? *hint hint*
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 04, 2010 6:01 am

Image

db is one of the largest reasons people, back when there WERE new players, wouldn't do evils... The whole notion of being able to move to another plane, or creating a swirling torrent of pain and misery such as inferno is perfectly fine, yet a simple pair of sunglasses was beyond the scope of any ...ANY storekeep/blacksmith? Mister Shev, evilrace is David Caruso unfriendly, sir!
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Malia » Sat Dec 04, 2010 1:40 pm

I disagree if you want to change dayblind then make it 100% able to see for all races all the time no matter what time of day it is.

Dayblind doesnt really slow anyone down that plays with it. The only people that it slows down are the people just trying out evils getting a feel for that new area. Maybe have an option pre-lvl 20 for dayblind with disclaimer at lvl 20 your lose that option like you lose ability to word back to scardale at 20. That way people get used to it a bit and they can learn to adapt with it.

Dayblind is used to balance the huge advantage of ultravision. Seeing in dark while mobs cant see you is huge so to balance that you cant see in daylight.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Thilindel » Sat Dec 04, 2010 8:07 pm

I said -months- ago that not only does online D&D not penalize for drow vision, other D&D games have group infravision for convenience. Skills, strategies aside, a game has to be fun and convenient in order for it to gather and sustain interest.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:07 pm

Thilindel wrote:I said -months- ago that not only does online D&D not penalize for drow vision, other D&D games have group infravision for convenience. Skills, strategies aside, a game has to be fun and convenient in order for it to gather and sustain interest.


Agreed. Toril pretty much sucks because of eq inflation imo.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gormal » Mon Dec 06, 2010 9:49 pm

Trying to compare pen and paper DnD to Toril is so incredibly counter-productive and pointless. Dayblind sucks, but its also very powerful if used properly. Ultra races are still generally worse than others (hi snakes).
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Thilindel » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:08 am

Gormal wrote:Trying to compare pen and paper DnD to Toril is so incredibly counter-productive and pointless.


Thilindel wrote:I said -months- ago that not only does online D&D not penalize for drow vision, other D&D games...


P&P via the internet? Technology has come a long way, indeed.

Regarding technology, especially being graphics vs. text, the pivotal consideration for a consumer is (price!!) ease-of-use versus enjoyment and meeting one's needs. If this mud (or any business, person, or technology) doesn't adapt, and meet reasonable consumer request(s) (even so much as having been popular, and still gaining demand, by example of prior cited, given they are -the- origin of which this mud is based, as well as their proxy), it will further spiral into mere nostalgia at best. You can play online D&D free now, so it's not an issue of they're paid and therefore, have incentive to meet and adapt to user interests.

In an odd way, the dayblind is an RP aspect that's imposed. My spontaneous compromise, make the effect of being blind as per the length in time it takes for the effects of song of fly to wane after the bard has quit singing. Eyes adapt after set time, there's the compromise. Personally, unless someone's in a closed inner room with every light off, one never really experiences pure darkness. Despite a new moon, and the open field behind my house, I can see the ground, the silhouettes of nearby trees, etc. Humans are absolutely blind in dark in the mud as the specific evils are in light. In one tick, a player has sight, then dusk/dawn, absolute blind. That's one powerful mudminute! Overcast would have impact on that, given logic. Some cloudy days are downright dark. Would be interesting if weather in the mud actually had an impact in that manner. Not asking for it, but various muds have different tweaks here and there.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Malia » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:20 pm

Those that use ultravision know that weather here has an effect on when you can and cant see. Full moons for instances from about 10pm - 2am mobs can see you on those specific nights.

Ultravision is extremely powerful if used right. Its not about seeing in the dark its about being blinded by the light BECAUSE you can see in the dark pefectly.

Im not talking bout D&D and im not talking bout any other game. Im talking bout this game and balance, and they balance ultravision with dayblind because ultravision is extremely powerful if used correctly.

Its not a forced rollplay its not anything besides ballancing a powerful ability with a negative side effect.

for me I play several alts that are dayblind and it doesnt bother me in the least but i have been playing for years and know my way around. I suggest maybe pre-20 a tog that isnt avail after 20 like recall isnt. I agree people need some time to adjust and learn maps and it sucks to be down 10 min of every 24 because you cant see. Most options like sun shadow and solid fog arent available till higher lvls too. Play characters to their strengths ultravision is huge, and very useful dayblind side effect is perfect for it.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Tue Dec 07, 2010 10:42 pm

If Ultravision is such a strength, why not add an option to cast infra on someone to remove their ultra? That way, someone can choose between both options, which has been proven to have both strengths and weaknesses.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Malia » Tue Dec 07, 2010 11:08 pm

shrug as long as its a permenant choice I dont see an issue with that shrug.
Dugmaren mutters in a surly voice 'Got any new strategy or going to continue with the "throw bodies at them til they get bored"? '



Dranth group-says 'i started drinkin when i found out galzar would be here'



Nerox says 'careful she goes from 0 to bitch in .00000001 seconds'



Mugo ASSOC:: 'ah got it on my gaytimer now :P'
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gukov » Wed Dec 08, 2010 1:41 am

Full disclosure - I have a level 50 duergar cleric, duergar rogue, and an illithid. I also have a lich which benefits from undead vision (you see perfectly no matter what time of day it is and don't need a light).

Dayblind could definitely use a bit of easing/tweaking in my opinion. The incapacitating effects far overwhelm any benefits it provides as far as I have been able to ascertain, although I am questioning how certain I ought to be about that.

First off, I am quite content to live with my decision to play duergars as things stand now and would even roll more some day just for the fun of being an underdark race. I don't care for RP or anything... it's just the first race I really ever leveled up on this mud and there's something endearing about them to me.

Anyways, dayblind is primarily an issue for the cleric, although I never really play him anymore. Becoming totally blind and dependent on a fogger in the middle of a zone when you are the main healer is pretty horrible. There is really no situation in which I would benefit from having ultravision given that I can't solo and would almost always be with a group with someone who is bound to be lit up.

Illithids don't really have to worry about it since globe of darkness is a really easy quest and long lasting skill.

The rogue is a bit different. If there is a situation where a mob truly can't see in the dark I could really take advantage. Same with my lich. However, as far as I know there are really not many situations where this comes up. I can think of a couple offhand, although I am sure there are bound to be a number that I am unaware of. If there were truly a ton of places where I could do awesome stuff with my rogue because I can see in the dark and mobs can't touch me, I'd agree with Ross. It's possible that these situations exist and I'm simply not aware of them for not having explored enough. I tend not to test because I'd either get beat down and have to CR dayblind (ugh) or have to heal up nice and slow (no khanjari and can't drink unholy water blind). I suppose I ought to go test more with my lich since he can heal himself a bit but some of these situations might be deeper in zones where I'd want to rogue it. Most of the time however, it usually turns out that there is a light in the room, or the room is permanently lit up, or there is a mob in the room that is able to see in the dark, whether it be an aggro with infravision or whatever that spoils the whole thing. In my experience this is 99.9%+ the case and I can't think of a single valuable item I could obtain using ultravision that couldn't be obtained by a very small day-seeing group. Again, I haven't tested much so feel free to send me places and mobs to twink stuff.

I know that undead-vision was abused to twink magma boots for a while, but as far as I know there are no more situations like that and if they ever came up it would be incredibly simple to fix as was the case there.

So, in closing, I think it would be pretty reasonable to make dayblind a little less incapacitating if my perspective of ultravision is relatively accurate.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Merrick » Wed Dec 08, 2010 8:48 pm

sorry but completely agree with Malia. I've played a whole range of dayblind characters. For new players it does suck to be dayblind as you don't know where to go and get stuck sitting around for long periods of time. However for people that know how to play and know how to get around dayblind is no big deal. Especially for the benifits it conveys to you. Being able to see in perfectly in the dark is a huge advantage. So it's perfectly reasonable for their to be dayblind. Sorry not saying people in this forumn per say but a large amount of the people who complain about dayblind are people who have been playing for a good while and can't seem to remember which way to walk or never even bother to explore or try things out or even don't even bother to explore their own hometown!?. We all know the kind of people I'm talking about. Any player worth there metal can deal with dayblind with minor to no problems.

(people who need to get a ride from like Hyssk to VT because they don't know how to get out of their hometown or how to get to the inn even... or they can't figure out how to get to faang from VT when dayblind. well then dayblind classes are not for these people) I digress... anyways completely agree with Malia.


Sorry I have to apologize for my terrible spelling and awful grammar. :(
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Kindi » Wed Dec 08, 2010 9:12 pm

"if you've played here ten years, then you can handle it"

i guess we don't want new players

and yes, they'll pick evils, thinking 'cool', and then totally suck at it since toril's definition of 'hard' and the standard definition of 'hard' are slightly different. see previous comment on ten years of experience.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Merrick » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:27 pm

[quote="Kindi"]"if you've played here ten years, then you can handle it"

sorry but I've been here for a year and a half. I got used to dayblind pretty quick.

But for sure it sucks as a new player not disagreeing with that :(.
Oh as far as dealing with dayblind there are already items in game that help you to deal with dayblind. To say a few there's a quest dagger in menzo that has a called proc of sunshadow. There are 1 x use consumables that also have fog and such. There even is a nifty echo that tells you when the sunlight is approaching so you can use it before going dayblind :).
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby grundar » Wed Dec 08, 2010 10:29 pm

both of my first characters here and in homeland were dayblind and i had no problems adapting to it as a newb. hell, my first mudding experience ever was with a dayblind character as well and while i do agree that dayblind is a hassle, it is not something that will make you completely suck at the game. Unless newbs have gone way up on the retard scale since the time when i started to now they are not the reason why this thread exists.
So lets call a duck a duck. This post's all about the old players with more than one level 50 who mostly played goodraces and just got tired of being dayblind on their evil alts.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 09, 2010 12:08 am

"I suffered through it so everyone else can to."

Dayblind is very powerful but it is incredibly new player unfriendly if you aren't playing a class that can counter it. New player also includes players new to evil race areas. Personally, I don't have many areas mapped out exactly in my head or on zMUD so I can't just path through darkness on my drow. Allowing players to see room names/exits while dayblind and maybe shapes if there are mobs present would be a good quality of life improvement without hurting actual gameplay. Forcing players to wait out the daylight just to navigate isn't challenging or interesting. There is a reason why the first thing every non-ultra newbie needs is a lit item or torch.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Merrick » Thu Dec 09, 2010 1:49 am

I think that one option rather then being able to see the exits which would sorta defeat the purpose of being dayblind would be to be able to see into your bags or being able to use something from your inventory while dayblind. This would support some of the items that are in game atm that have solid fog and spells like that on them. Whereas at the moment the game doesn't allow for easy use of these particular items they have to be used before one becomes blind for the most part and therefore are useless. At the very least that would give dayblind characters such as drow invokers or rogues a method of dealing with their dayblindness even if only in one room. Thereby you would be able to memorize your spells and such and see whats attacking you if anything. Obviously you would still encounter the problem of moving from one place to another but at the very least you would be able to see what room you were in and get your bearings and such.

That and maybe doing something as mentioned above with no dayblind when under lvl 20 for people just starting out and getting used to the game.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gukov » Thu Dec 09, 2010 2:58 am

Addendum to my last post...

Some people explained to me privately a number of ways in which I wasn't aware ultravision could be used to one's advantage. Like I said, I should test more :P

In any case, I still think that the negatives of dayblindness are a little too overwhelming for the variety of classes and players that have to deal with it. However, if any changes were to be made, the coder making the changes should speak with the usual suspects to make sure they understand how powerful a skill it can be.

I would welcome a change so long as it doesn't negate the current ways in which ultravision brings variety to the game. There's a lot of repetition in this game and from what I understand ultravision creates a significantly different way to interact with mobs and zones in cool ways. As long as that remains intact everyone should be happy.

What I'm essentially concerned about is that if it is changed, only PCs should benefit from the change, not mobs. Otherwise I'd worry that fights would just be moving closer to a standard dayseeing encounter and be less unique.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:54 am

Merrick wrote:I think that one option rather then being able to see the exits which would sorta defeat the purpose of being dayblind...


This is where I think a lot of you are making a big assumption. You've got this idea of why dayblind exists and what the actual drawback should be. You don't balance a powerful gameplay (read: combat) ability against a navigation inconvienence; it doesn't make sense. Being unable to fully see your targets in the light, but still able to navigate is an even trade just like goodies fighting dayblind mobs. Dayblind would still be restrictive if you couldn't make out mobs without fog/globe.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Botef » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:49 pm

This wouldn't apply to duergars, but maybe an option could be to make innate darkness function like sun shadow when its used in daylight, and function like the darkness spell everywhere else.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Merrick » Thu Dec 09, 2010 4:53 pm

Okay so we show the exits to a room. Now we still can't use items from our inventory so your saying theirs !solution to being able to fully see a mob that's attacking you? or are you saying we would be able to use items now too? Then dayblind would hardly be an inconvenience. It's supposed to be balancing out the fact that you can see perfectly at night when most mobs can't. I guess someone who only has one dayblind character on his char list wouldn't have the most experience being dayblind and the advantages of what you can solo with darkblind mobs. It is a huge advantage therefore I have no complaints suffering a drawback such as dayblind. If you did more solo stuff on a drow necro or classes like that you'd see how much of an advantage it is.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gormal » Thu Dec 09, 2010 9:52 pm

Who exactly are you talking to, because I'm the one with only one ultra character on my list but you seem to be responding to the innate darkness/sun shadow suggestion. Calm your nerdrage and make a coherent reply please. Don't you play a lich anyway, Merrick?
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Thu Dec 09, 2010 10:31 pm

Prove situations that ultra is actually useful and only doable with ultra.

Note: If you care about what "it was suppose to be" because most of the original immortals are gone and it's a different game now. Power shouldn't be a race chose, it should be a character development choice.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Merrick » Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:41 am

Pretty sure I was responding to you Gormal but whatever.

As I mentioned before I have and still do play a whole range of dayblind characters. I still have 3 or 4 drow that are not lichs. I've played a couple of duergar as well. Sorry if i was coming across a bit rude on that last post :(.

Also I never mentioned anything about innate darkness. So not sure where you got that from.

@Dalar

Sorry I probably wasn't very clear. I wasn't meaning that they can't be done without ultravision but ultravision helps a great deal when it comes to walking past things that would normally kill you and some things you can solo with a drow necro using ultravision that you probably couldn't normally do. Here's an example. On a drow necromancer or a lich you can solo the DS spiders useing ultravision. Which if the spiders could see you would pummel your face in as you probably well know.

Sorry I was a little confused on what you meant by power not being a race choice. It stands to reason that if your a particular race your race has certain innate abilities does it not? sorry if I'm completely misunderstanding what you were trying to say.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby amena wolfsnarl » Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:07 am

pretty sure that ultra vision was proven as very powerful when someone was twinking magma tank boots for 37 boots straight abusing ultra vision, or someone farming GC rares abusing ultra vision. If thats not powerful i dont know what is, yes its situational, i get that, but powerful none the less
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:20 am

amena wolfsnarl wrote:pretty sure that ultra vision was proven as very powerful when someone was twinking magma tank boots for 37 boots straight abusing ultra vision, or someone farming GC rares abusing ultra vision. If thats not powerful i dont know what is, yes its situational, i get that, but powerful none the less


That's enabled by careless Area gods and it's sad how it wasn't addressed for so long. GC rares are hella easy to farm. If ultra is so awesome and so highly valued, those exploits wouldn't have been fixed.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Gormal » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:23 am

Merrick wrote:Pretty sure I was responding to you Gormal but whatever.

As I mentioned before I have and still do play a whole range of dayblind characters. I still have 3 or 4 drow that are not lichs. I've played a couple of duergar as well. Sorry if i was coming across a bit rude on that last post :(.

Also I never mentioned anything about innate darkness. So not sure where you got that from.


I brought it up because the content of your post didn't even remotely reflect my suggestions or statements about Ultra in any way so I assumed you were talking to someone else. You should probably avoid making snide remarks about people's alts from your anonymous forum account; its lame even on the WoW forums.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Merrick » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:50 am

I was not intending it as a snide remark. You were saying I didn't mention anything to do with your argument were you not the one that suggested to allow people to see exits? hmm no that couldn't have been you...

But whatever I'm sure your correct.... I will stop arguing anything to do with this as this is going nowhere.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Malia » Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:17 pm

I just love the fact that people that are playing dayblind classes say dont fix it, its fine

The people that want it fixed are the people new to the races first time playing darkie in most cases. (gukov with exception) and hes right dark clerics need something to allow them to see in daylight like chanters/ele/illu/psis i have never played a dayblind cleric im not sure if darkness works or not. as for warriors, there are enough fog items in game its just a consumable you carry if your gonna play that class, like hafling rogues need to carry enlarge pots.

I personaly thing dayblind isnt a rollplay, its just part of that race to balance the ability to see perfect in dark while other races cant. They shouldnt be able to see exits or mobs or anything the message you get is fine. I would agree with Merrick being able to see to proc an item for fog or something would be nice since thats what their intended use is.

Brian if you want specifics in game that i use darkies for let me know. There are at least 10 or so fights i can think of offhand that i use a darkie to do solo rather then get 4-5 people to do it because mobs are blind at night.

Dayblind is fine as it is, if you dont like it dont play a dark race there are other evil races that arent dayblind.
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Re: Improvements to Dayblind

Postby Dalar » Sat Dec 11, 2010 4:04 pm

Soloing is cool, but anti-MMO. Pretty much why most solo progression in WoW is group oriented.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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