we do not need a cop

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Turxx
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we do not need a cop

Postby Turxx » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:58 am

im sure Beshaba is a fine and good person
but there are very few people left on the mud
the public channels are pg13
people pretty much just find ways they can tolerate exp/skill prac and zone
no reason the regular staff cant see and squash blatant/gross rule violations
we do not need a cop looking over our shoulder
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Dugmaren » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:26 am

I disagree, and using "there are very few people left on the mud" as an excuse to bend or break rules is not going to fly.

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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Turxx » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:14 pm

i have helped several people, some of them new blood, level while i had other things that required most of my focus
i have read the help robot rules
i think what i did could go either way depending on interpretation
but i personally didnt really gain anything directly
we all however gain when new people want to play our game
i have ha one dealing with the new admin
some invisible god i had never seen nor heard of before calling me on dropping link to log another char
i did that out of laziness admittedly, i was showing someone how to play and i wanted to keep it moving and demonstrate how easy and fun it was to operate a char
i knew i was wrong so i promptly rented that char and moved on
what followed was nothing short of harassment
it upset me to the point i had to walk away and gave the person i was showing how to play a very negative impression of how staff deal with players
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Turxx » Sun Oct 24, 2010 2:21 pm

im not saying because there arent many who play we should get free license
what i am saying is we dont need a staff member whos sole role is to harass us or babysit
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Shevarash » Sun Oct 24, 2010 3:27 pm

There are still rules and they need to be followed. The problem with having the non-admin people enforce those rules is that they spend their time doing that instead of building and maintaining content. If you have an issue with one of those rules, this is a public forum in which you can argue whether or not they're valid and should be changed. We'll read those and take them into consideration. Thanks!
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Dugmaren » Sun Oct 24, 2010 4:40 pm

Turxx wrote:i knew i was wrong so i promptly rented that char and moved on


Actually you started by disrespecting a staff member and then moved into a more abusive attitude. How about we show newbies a good example and co-operate; you know the rules, you got caught, you didn't even get punished.. stop complaining?
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Turxx » Sun Oct 24, 2010 7:31 pm

fair enough shev
in the rules i see references to enforcing the spirit of the rules when the letter is absent, sometimes in enforcing the letter you defeat the spirit
the rules are to keep the game fun, fair and true to the mud concept
or am i wrong?
as for disrespect or abuse, i disagree
my tone went from sarcastic to short, but at no point did i disrespect or abuse
i welcome you to post the log, i didnt save it
i had 2 chars on, one ld in an inn, purely lazy and clearly a violation, but no way an attempt to get anything over on anyone
the sarcasm was for my personal feeling on not just letting that go as well as the fact the god was to that point unheard of and invis to me
for all i knew it was someone who just finished the zone that got them the god and they wanted to feel important; test new powers
how would you feel if someone you didnt know walked into your house and started questioning you?
just because you work for the fire dept doesnt give you right to pop in unannounced, without introduction, and check my smoke alarms
that is disrespectful and abusive
what came after me renting my char out was unnecessary and could have been left alone entirely, left for a better time or at the very least approached differently
i rented my ld char and asked to be left alone, to which the reply was, "i need a current list of you alts"
all over some left field, 7 year old, ipshare stuff from an old roommate i had to think about to even know what exactly they were referring to
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Marthammor » Sun Oct 24, 2010 9:49 pm

'You' petitions 'no specific reason, just trying to recruit a new player, gotta keep things movig'
> I appreciate you helping out new players. I think you said it yourself that we all benefit when new players want to play our game.

'You' petitions 'was gunna see if i could run to sm before he idle out, maybe do some multi'
> Not sure what you meant by that, but it could be taken as blatant rule breakage.

'You' petitions '*snort* you must be bored'
Beshaba ptell 'You' 'I just got back to keys. Rules are rules. Thanks for your cooperation.'
'You' petitions 'youre quite welcome, now leave me be please'
Beshaba ptell 'You' 'Also, your ipshare account needs to be updated. If you could email a list of your current alts to beshaba.toril@gmail.com, I'll get it updated to prevent any further need for me to "bother" you.'
'You' petitions 'i dont even know who the hell you are, this is the first time ive ever talked to you and you are not visable, nor to my knowledge have you ever been'
<Beshaba goes visible here.>
'You' petitions 'you want my alt list ask kegor'
> Any god, be they invis, known, or unknown deserves respect. Even if they did just finish their new zone and got an imm spot, they are/have been a player here too. Might even be someone you know. How much of an ass would you feel like if you just took a crap all over a good real life/online buddy just because you didn't know it was them?

Beshaba ptell 'You' 'It *IS* your responsibility to maintain a list of current alts with the imms if you plan on continuing use of the ipshare system.'
'You' petitions 'wtf are you talking about'
'You' petitions 'atm, i do not'
> The above line is all that was needed.

'You' petitions 'you must have missed the part where i said i was trying to recruit new blood'
'You' petitions 'that or you think we have enough players'
'You' petitions 'go harrass someone else'
> Again, thank you for helping new players, however, do not expect that it will make you exempt from the rules.

Beshaba ptell 'You' 'Nods. I'll go ahead and remove your entry in the ipshare system then.'
Beshaba ptell 'You' 'For future reference, Multi rules WILL be enforced. Consider this your warning.'


NOTE: I changed all references of Turxx's character to 'You' in case he doesn't want it known to everyone and removed some location info dealing with where he was petitioning from, which wasn't relevant to the situation.


how would you feel if someone you didnt know walked into your house and started questioning you?

> I may be out of line here, but this is our house and you are our guests. So the way we look at is is you came into our house knowing the rules, then totally ignored them and then got all pissy when we asked that you obey them.

the rules are to keep the game fun, fair and true to the mud concept

> I bolded and underlined one word so it stands out there. How fair would it be if we let you break the rules, but not anyone else?
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Turxx » Sun Oct 24, 2010 10:16 pm

amen
let it be noted i logged the multi off before the out of context and edited text even began
also note how much further it went after i logged, verified i no longer used the same ip as anyone else and asked to be left alone
as for my friends, they all know me well enough not to come at me sideways in the first place and are well aware i will respond in kind
as does anyone who has ever tested my boundaries
i did what was asked and then asked to be left alone, i wasnt
as for your underlined _fair_ by fair i mean unfair advantage or gain, balance
ive been around long enough to know how arbitrary enforcement can be, so lets not go there
i rest my case
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Marthammor » Mon Oct 25, 2010 12:08 am

Turxx wrote:amen
let it be noted i logged the multi off before the out of context and edited text even began
also note how much further it went after i logged, verified i no longer used the same ip as anyone else and asked to be left alone
as for my friends, they all know me well enough not to come at me sideways in the first place and are well aware i will respond in kind
as does anyone who has ever tested my boundaries
i did what was asked and then asked to be left alone, i wasnt
as for your underlined _fair_ by fair i mean unfair advantage or gain, balance
ive been around long enough to know how arbitrary enforcement can be, so lets not go there
i rest my case


It might be true you logged the multi off. All I seen from the log posted was you were asked why you had one char linkdead while playing another. That question was the very first question in the log followed by what I posted here.
As for how much longer it went; I see five petitions in a row from you after you got smart with Beshaba by telling him to use Kegor to get your alts, and him telling you its your job to inform us of changes in your IP Share account. Three of those petitions were after the one single petition that was needed telling him you no longer needed an IP Share account. Those petitions were then followed by two more petitions, both simply informing you of what Beshaba had done concerning your out-dated IP Share account, and a warning that the rules will be enforced. Then the end of the log. Everything that was said by Beshaba was correct, and the whole thing could have been done in like six sentences had you not taken offense to him asking you why it looked like you were multiplaying.

Bottom line is things were lax with the very few admins that we had. Now we have more, and chances are that if you're doing something wrong, you're gonna get busted. Follow the rules and you have nothing to worry about. If you get busted, be nice, be civil, do what is asked, and things will go smoothly for everyone involved.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Dalar » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:49 pm

Turxx,

You shouldn't have disrespected the gods. The moment you said wtf go check Kegor, you went down a bad path. They have rules for ipsharing. Follow them. Just because "you're trying to bring in new blood" isn't a license to do anything you want. Take a 2 day break and reflect on what has been said by everyone in this thread.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Ragorn » Thu Oct 28, 2010 7:34 pm

...mine eyes deceiveth me.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Vaprak » Fri Oct 29, 2010 12:37 am

OK, so who hacked Dalar's BBS account?
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Thilindel » Fri Oct 29, 2010 1:02 am

It would be relative to point out the rules were made when the atmosphere was such that there were hundreds of people on at any one time. There were multiple full groups at any one time as well, et cetera et cetera...

Given the speed at which one can heal on any other game (with graphics, mind you), many of Toril's rules are grossly outdated. I've repeatedly, in the last few weeks, tried logging in - but there's virtually nobody. And with these "you're on your own..." type rules, it just causes me to rent. I'm sure I'm not the only one. Several years ago, I got one of my characters deleted because I was playing late night...13 or so people were visible, so that means maybe 3 actively playing...and I died. I logged another char and spelled the deader up. Basically, since there wasn't a group available, I was multiplaying. It's like this with the hardcore rules: If the classes that can't heal or maintain are solo, there's no real point in logging in unless there's support. If it's to be quoted that there's eq out there that helps soloability, then that shows the density of only career players is clearly too high. This mud is absolutely not newbie friendly when there's nobody to group with at night.

I think there's resentment for admin gods because instead of policing, I (and others had in the past, mentioned) think it would be more beneficial if said admin were just -playing- as morts full time. It's not any one person's fault. A re-evaluation of certain rules would most certainly be in order. For example: Is it really knocking balance to have an INN fully heal a player within a minute or two? And then compare said time duration against a graphic game that you can heal spontaneously. There needs to be incentive to play here vs. graphics.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Inames » Mon Nov 01, 2010 4:41 am

my opinion on this is simple.. beshaba, being a new admin, and widely unknown, should have been visible and logged in for at least a week to let people know hes around so they dont feel like they are getting jumped by some random stranger that doesnt know a dogs anus from its snout, the staff should interact with the players and, not become friendly, but establish a basic relationship with the player base to show that they care about the game and its peoples...

verification that a god understands the rules before being allowed to enforce them would be nice.. in which case i think a veteran staff member should validate before turning a new member loose on us.. not that im saying he wasnt correct in any rule enforcement showed on the log, but as a general rule of thumb we should know that we arent getting jerked around by a novice..

any new staff member shouldnt be allowed to go power crazy right off the bat either, a new admin trying to deal with something like IPshare should be overlooked by a superior so as to not cause confusion, like what happened and cause the player to freak out not knowing what the hell was going on..

a better way of handling the situation in my mind, would have been to ask if the player realized there was a linkdead (obviously not being played for any beneficial purpose so the whole breaking multiplay rules concern was kind of a moot point aside from the very minor annoyance of making a god have to ask whats going on..) character in the inn which had shared his ip address.. in which case the player would verify and correct the situation, been given a warning to be careful of such incidents which cause concern about multiplay rules, and be sent on their way with a small note posted on some admin board to note that the player was spoken to for whatever reason it may have been.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Inames » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:25 am

also, i dont see beshaba being announced in the news at any point, where as all the other recent staff additions were posted in the in game news at least... so there needs to be a little more communication between the staff and players in a friendly sort of manner
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby grundar » Mon Nov 01, 2010 5:56 am

Inames wrote:my opinion on this is simple.. beshaba, being a new admin, and widely unknown, should have been visible and logged in for at least a week to let people know hes around


oh yeah i agree. also, beshaba thard and talona all need titles with BLINKING ANSI so we all know not to break the rules because they're watching.


...

fucking seriously?



you've been away for a while so you probably didnt notice.. beshaba's been visible since day one and even if that wasnt the case since when was the lack of visible admins a carte blanche to break the rules? you break the rules, you get caught, you deal with it.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Inames » Mon Nov 01, 2010 6:04 am

grundar wrote:
Inames wrote:my opinion on this is simple.. beshaba, being a new admin, and widely unknown, should have been visible and logged in for at least a week to let people know hes around


oh yeah i agree. also, beshaba thard and talona all need titles with BLINKING ANSI so we all know not to break the rules because they're watching.


...

fucking seriously?



you've been away for a while so you probably didnt notice.. beshaba's been visible since day one and even if that wasnt the case since when was the lack of visible admins a carte blanche to break the rules? you break the rules, you get caught, you deal with it.


typical out of context cut and paste job, grats you got to the depth of my post in one line,not even i could do that... oh wait that was my FIRST line!!! if i knew that summed it up well i wouldnt have put the other 3 3/4 paragraphs in....
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Gormal » Mon Nov 01, 2010 7:02 am

I'm probably the first person around here to start a confrontation with the admin sphere and I'll back them up here. Unnecessary policing of chat channels is one thing, but if you multi/bot/whatever and get caught thats just the way it goes. Almost all of us have gotten caught at some point for cheating (admit it or not) and its just the risk you take.

Multiplay is cheating, like it or not.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Teflor Lyorian » Tue Nov 02, 2010 1:49 pm

Teflor was here. While we do not need a cop, we do not need a rule-breaker either.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 02, 2010 6:19 pm

Teflor Lyorian wrote:Teflor was here. While we do not need a cop, we do not need a rule-breaker either.


This post alone is the reason why Teflor shouldn't be ignored by anyone.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Disoputlip » Tue Nov 02, 2010 8:54 pm

Great log. Thanks for saving and sharing it.

If anyone talks to you like that again, could you then at least kill them? Seems out of touch not to do that. 1 death is a few xp, and the annoying part of getting back to corpse etc. So it is not that big a punishment.

Mabye you should have a keyword warning, let me suggest atone.

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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Gyrx » Sat Nov 06, 2010 8:16 am

Thilindel wrote:It would be relative to point out the rules were made when the atmosphere was such that there were hundreds of people on at any one time. There were multiple full groups at any one time as well, et cetera et cetera...

Given the speed at which one can heal on any other game (with graphics, mind you), many of Toril's rules are grossly outdated.


/signed
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Thu Nov 11, 2010 4:35 am

Seriously, who gives a crap.

The pbase has gotten so anorexic petty stuff like this shouldn't matter imo.

But admins still police it as if they are managing several hundred people, when really there's no more than 10-15 at any given time.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Gormal » Thu Nov 11, 2010 11:16 am

In the last two weeks, the average number of active players has been 20-30 during evening hours. Just saying that you're making up numbers to validate your statements.

Edit: I think that lately there's been a random resurgence of people, but regardless of the number of players online, you can't just start allowing multiplay. Allow people to buff themselves (especially in areas like Darktree with an inn readily available) and things will get out of hand quickly. I'd probably be on the other side of this argument if it related to botting skill practice but thats another discussion entirely.
Last edited by Gormal on Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Malia » Thu Nov 11, 2010 2:49 pm

Peak numbers have been mid 40's to low 50's too. Several times last few weeks we have had 2 full zone groups going doing bigger zones. Troll king and Hulburg being done at same time for example.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Jhorr » Sun Nov 28, 2010 7:53 pm

This thread is about the integrity of our game. Without rules, we have chaos. They should be followed (although imho multi should be allowed and the exp multiplier should be at 2x permanently! But that's another thread...). The rules should also be enforced with respect to the players. I agree with Inames points too - admin powers shouldn't be abused (anyone remember Mystra? *cringe*). Especially with so few players around anymore, it would be dumb to risk losing a veteran player who was really only trying to help a noob.
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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 30, 2010 2:34 am

Jhorr wrote:This thread is about the integrity of our game. Without rules, we have chaos. They should be followed (although imho multi should be allowed and the exp multiplier should be at 2x permanently! But that's another thread...). The rules should also be enforced with respect to the players. I agree with Inames points too - admin powers shouldn't be abused (anyone remember Mystra? *cringe*). Especially with so few players around anymore, it would be dumb to risk losing a veteran player who was really only trying to help a noob.


What powers were being abused? He didn't even get punished. They just told him to rent out his extra char. The IPshare thing is if both chars don't belong to Turxx.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Roklam » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:15 pm

Sad part as I see it is... been playing since, oh, 1995 or so and that rule as been there... what... the entire time? That's what... 15+ years? And yes, I know some of you have been here longer. :P

Not like this is a new rule. Just sayin.


One of my employees asked me one day "Why does it seem like you managers do everything you can to find people doing something wrong?"

My response was "Why are you worried about it? If you're not breaking any rules, you have nothing to fear. Right?"

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Re: we do not need a cop

Postby Roklam » Fri Feb 11, 2011 2:16 pm

lol... Didn't even notice the date on this post till just now. Fail.

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