evils and goods!

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Gyrx
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Postby Gyrx » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:16 am

bla bla bla bla bla
Dezzex
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Postby Dezzex » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:42 am

Tasan wrote:
I rolled a cleric, got to level 15 with some help from some people I knew, and now anytime I log on, I sit at the fountain for 20 minutes before getting bored and leaving.

Seems like you don't need clerics all that badly.



Ok, this is a joke right? :P Because haha you had me going.

As for whoever's rolling an ogre shaman, stick with it... some of the best evil shamans, or best evils period, are ogre shamans. As long as you don't end up like Raskan you're entirely capable of doing the job and then some.

And for goodies rolling evils (or hell, anyone). I like to help with some general information but for gods sakes learn your own hometown, and at least make an effort to learn the UD and other evil locations. If I give you the name of the mob and tell you whereabouts it may be, go look for it, don't ask "well what directions my guild cause I don't know where the fountain is." And when said person is decked out and already level 30 this is just annoying.

Moreover don't expect to go zoning once you hit a magic level. The majority of the high level evils spend most of the day idling if they're online. As mentioned by somebody above, this helps the who list look fuller. I won't lead anything, but I'll help if you need it. So "not being involved" has nothing to do with being ignored, it's just the fact we manage a zone once a week and that's that.
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Postby Yasden » Tue Nov 25, 2003 12:14 pm

Hage you Ssiv :( But at least I didn't die to red beam! *nudge*
Void
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Postby Void » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:04 pm

Hey I just wanted to toss in my 2 cents. I've read what all of you have written and I have to say that while what some of what you say is true, some of it isn't true at the same time.

For instance, I see that you've had a bad experience playing a goodie ambar, well I can personally say that when I have the time available and am not zoning, I try to take the time to help out anyone I know or don't know if they ask. Some of those people are alts of some well known primes, but I don't tend to ask. I just do my best to answer questions, give spare bits of gear I have but don't use etc.

But at the same time I don't think I've had the same experience as salen when playing an evil. When I rolled up an evil and there has been people around who aren't afk, I've had them be very helpful and informative to me. It ranged from just answering some of my evil noob questions to having some of the highbies actively seek me out and ask me if I'd like help xping or learning the ropes of surviving in various evil hometowns.

While it is true that everyone's experiences differ it's also true that when given the proper chance most of the players here will try to help out with information when they have the time or are not afk. Hell as it is I can recount numerous times where some of the players I consider my friends haven't answered me at the normal greeting of "hey how goes? =)" but I dont' take it as a slight or them trying to ignore me, I just assume that they are busy or afk or in the middle of spammy combat etc. I find that mudding for the most part is a very enjoyable experience on either side and that the people who take this too seriously should take a step back and remember, I'm doing this because I have fun and enjoy the people around me, not to stress out over someone who may or may not get us spanked. Yes while this is annoying, ultimately it boils down to this... it happens.

I can't remember a time where something so terrible has happened in mud that I've wanted to scream obscinities at a fellow mudder because they may or may not have done something "stupid". Like I said, this does happen. I'm sure that sometime in life if you examine it closely enough you can find a time where you may have done something you aren't proud of or done something that was conpletely asinine.

I don't mean to sound like I'm lecturing or all high and mighty and I hope you don't read this and assume that I am. I'm just stating a couple observations and feelings that I have. well my english teacher must be rolling over in her grave so I should prolly stop this huge run-on sentence =). I'm sure that given time this will be resolved in the right way =).

laters,
Engra the addled shaman
Last edited by Void on Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Ya know if you gathered up every single stupid person in the world and dropped them on an island, they wouldn't breed themselves out of exsistence... they'd breed some kind of super moron who'd come and take over our society! *shrieks*
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Tue Nov 25, 2003 1:24 pm

never said I had a bad experience playing goodie :P i have fun no matter what i play ....

man i don't use much punctuation ... but paragraph breaks are nice once in a while
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."

-Italian Proverb
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Postby Pheten » Tue Nov 25, 2003 2:14 pm

When I see a paragraph Like that I don't even bothe reading it hehe.
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Nov 25, 2003 7:37 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:55 pm, edited 2 times in total.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:36 pm

Dezzex wrote:
Ok, this is a joke right? :P Because haha you had me going.

As for whoever's rolling an ogre shaman, stick with it... some of the best evil shamans, or best evils period, are ogre shamans. As long as you don't end up like Raskan you're entirely capable of doing the job and then some.

And for goodies rolling evils (or hell, anyone). I like to help with some general information but for gods sakes learn your own hometown, and at least make an effort to learn the UD and other evil locations. If I give you the name of the mob and tell you whereabouts it may be, go look for it, don't ask "well what directions my guild cause I don't know where the fountain is." And when said person is decked out and already level 30 this is just annoying.

Moreover don't expect to go zoning once you hit a magic level. The majority of the high level evils spend most of the day idling if they're online. As mentioned by somebody above, this helps the who list look fuller. I won't lead anything, but I'll help if you need it. So "not being involved" has nothing to do with being ignored, it's just the fact we manage a zone once a week and that's that.



Sesexe wrote:Salen,
I’ve sat back and thought about what you wrote here concerning your short experience as an Orc Shaman, and what you further said to me about it on the MUD last night. I’m sorry you had a bad experience for that time. It was unfortunate. Equally unfortunate is I believe your judgment was biased before it began, and still is probably. I believe you created and logged the character with a chip on your shoulder and a point to prove, and you were going to take steps to purposely prove that point as a valid one. This is precisely why you didn’t use the NHC channel. If this was done for something to be said here, or on the MUD to your friends, or even both I am uncertain. If it was intended or subconscious, I am equally unsure, but sitting back and looking at your regular attitude towards an Evil/Goodie debates I feel you had a point to make more then an experience to be had.

You see you’re not the only one who has created a new orc shaman and needed help. I too have been in that position. I never told anyone who my main char was and only asked one question: “Where is BT in relation to the world?”

Not everyone knew the answer to this question. Not everyone responded. When I got an answer, I was told it was north of BGR. I still don’t know the exact layout of the hometown, but I found my way to the TP eventually even after dying a few times to mobs inside BT. I got past the water in BGR, but I didn’t do it by purposely sending tells to people I knew about on the BBS/word of mouth notorious for ego/attitudes to walk halfway across the mud to minor creation me a raft. No, instead I acted as a newbie. I did this by asking on NHC, and by shouting in the zone if anyone was around to help get across the water.

If you can find it inside yourself to loose the chip and try again, please do. And please remember that any evils who are on and at the keys ready to help, respond to NHC questions. It’s how we tell who needs genuine and sincere help from those who don’t.


Ok. So you ask people why they don't want to play with you, then they answer you honestly, and then you chide them for it and/or psychoanalyze their behavior. Boy, I really want to play an evil now!


Thanuk completes his spell, battering the evils with a clue!
The spell dissipates harmlessly around the evils, having no effect.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Werg
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Postby Werg » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:43 pm

Hey now, don't judge many by the actions of few.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Tue Nov 25, 2003 8:48 pm

Werg wrote:Hey now, don't judge many by the actions of few.


Well if there were many of you, we wouldn't even be having this conversation now would we?:)
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Gormal
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Postby Gormal » Tue Nov 25, 2003 9:58 pm

Mullet: 1
Evils: 0
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:12 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:37 pm

Look, I'm just trying to help you out. You want people to come play evils? Great, more power to you. What your doing here isn't going to score you any brownie points though, and it just further reinforces the negative perception people have of you. Salen and Twyl gave you their opinions based on experience, which you were looking for. Maybe next time, instead of telling them what they were doing wrong, maybe you should just think about what they said, whether or not you can do something about it, and move on. But you didn't, you told him he subconsciously wanted to not be helped, and that takes any and all blame away from the evil playerbase. You never get the answer you're looking for until you accept some responsibility for the situation you are in. No, its not your fault that Salen had a shitty time playing an evil, but it ain't his fault either, so don't try and explain to him that he subconsciously willed it to happen.

Oh and BTW while im giving you advice: Salen and Twyl are not people your going to win over to come play evils. They are well established players on the goodie side, get zone groups whenever they want, and an evilrace char for them will be nothing but a toy. If you want to boost up your player base, you need to attract the right kind of people. Goodrace players between level 30-45 who are not alts. They are big enough to understand the game, how to play, and etc. They aren't well established, they don't get zone groups alot, but they are hungry for equipment and all the fun that comes with doing highlevel zones. If you convince these people that if they go evil they can zone all the time, get nasty eq, and do all the hardest zones, then you'll get some players. But trying to bring over ppl who already have top tier eq and are either guilded or well adapted socially to the goodie side isn't gonna get you anything but a bunch of powerleveled alts that don't show up after crashes. Recruit the up and coming new players to the evil side, and then maybe you'll get somewhere.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Tue Nov 25, 2003 10:51 pm

I think the idleness is interesting. I remember asking questions about things when I got completely lost and getting no response (I logged off at some point). I had never considered it was a form of voicemail. Truthfully, I think it's kinda disheartening to some newer players when this happens. I've had a couple of friends make similar remarks about the amount of non-responses they get. Anyway....

Tey,
The people being perceived rude on both sides is important. If there as many of these people on the good side as there are on the evil side, then goodies have the perception of being nicer due to our bigger pbase. I'm not saying it's a true representation, but it is really an imporatnt factor and something the evils have to deal with to increase pbase.
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Postby Void » Tue Nov 25, 2003 11:50 pm

Sesexe wrote:PS. Void, please edit your post so I can read it. Tnx. :)


Did just for you because ya asked so nice ses :D
Ya know if you gathered up every single stupid person in the world and dropped them on an island, they wouldn't breed themselves out of exsistence... they'd breed some kind of super moron who'd come and take over our society! *shrieks*
Stamm
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Postby Stamm » Wed Nov 26, 2003 12:28 am

Something to consider!

It's not just goodies and evils.

It's evils, some goodies, other goodies, more goodies.

There's plenty of goodies I've never grouped with (or grouped just once) sometimes I'll end up grouped with a bunch of folks I don't know too well. And sometimes that reminds me of why I like grouping with mainly Imphras... and sometimes I have fun. But regardless of that, the advantage of being a goodie is that you get to play with your peers, but you get to also play with the other two or three equivalent groups of goodies that exist.
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Postby Zoldren » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:17 am

Cordan wrote:
Ambar wrote: ... they are great guys when u get to know them ....



I've seen that alot. So someone tell me what it takes to get recognized so that some people will take the time to get to know ya? Takes two to tango! :)



ya zactly... you are playing "their game" if you will..

you have to learn their ways, not expect them to teach it to you all at once, you have to learn threw trial and error., they are not going to just accept you on either side good or evil.

things are done totaly different, on evil side, you gota prove urself before your accepted, and i dont care what yo usay, its the same on the good side.

only difference is you know people on one than the ohter.

try rolling a fresh char on both sides, and not tell anyone who you are, dont transfer eq.. learn how easy it is on which side..

side note.. when "newbies" laugh.. roll evils they expect evils to juts give them uber eq, and lvl tehm and teach them the ways, it just dont wrk that way.

and i agree w/gura,

if you want RP, make grouping Alignment based, not race.
if you want balance fix skills, leave peoples toys alone.
MoM-D
Originally posted by Baikalisan:
There once was a girl named Pinky
Who liked to flash and get kinky
We gave her some cash
She went down in a flash
And made us all squirm like a slinky!
Orku
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Postby Orku » Wed Nov 26, 2003 9:13 am

From my experiences, I've rolled up two chars one goodie and one evil. Needless to say i'm playing the evil why? I've made some good friends. The reason i'm not playing the goodie? Becuase I couldn't find a single xp group, i encountered mean attitudes. Not to say that there haven't been times as my evil that i havne't been able to get groups or have encountered bad attitudes. One good thing is with the small evil pbase its easier to get to know most people.

Both have their ups and downs, to many to really list. So I don't see why people have to bicker about who's side is better, we are all here for the same reason, and its fun.
Zissa OOC: 'orku i will go to class for you if you go to work for me'
You OOC: 'if you don't mind me going naked'
Zissa OOC: 'sure its a bunch of sailors'
You OOC: 'got screwed on that one'

Senosa gets a bright green pillow.
Senosa says 'Pillow fight.....'
Cordan
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Postby Cordan » Wed Nov 26, 2003 1:43 pm

Orku wrote:From my experiences, I've rolled up two chars one goodie and one evil. Needless to say i'm playing the evil why? I've made some good friends. The reason i'm not playing the goodie? Becuase I couldn't find a single xp group, i encountered mean attitudes. Not to say that there haven't been times as my evil that i havne't been able to get groups or have encountered bad attitudes. One good thing is with the small evil pbase its easier to get to know most people.

Both have their ups and downs, to many to really list. So I don't see why people have to bicker about who's side is better, we are all here for the same reason, and its fun.



A. It's not that one side is better than the other. It's why more people tend to play good then evil. Anyone here ever take sociology? It's kind of like cultures in a way. Like people with like minds tend to run together. Evils have always had a strong base of people with like minds that tend to run the show. So who joins up? Those who like it, can deal with it, fit in, or those who can get along with anyone.

Also, think about this. What does a newb see when he logs on to roll his first char? DON"T ROLL EVIL, THEY HARD! Not the exact words, but that's the jist. So they roll a goodie, start leveling, group with a bunch of different people, and find a crowd to run with. Then later, they decide to try out an evil to see what's up. All it takes at that point is one, ONE bad experience on the evil side, and they'll go right back to where they're comfortable. Where they started.

B. I have a level 20 barb warrior, I've been able to find a group with people of a similar level that I don't know and have never talked to every single time i've logged on since I rolled him. And actually I've seen several true newbs lately. I've tried to make a point and NOT group with people I knew, seeing as they would be high level and plevel me.

Thanuk hit the nail on the head. Don't target the goodie elite (not meant in a bad way), they're established and not going anywhere, target the younger players who don't have enough time and energy into their first chars to mind rolling up a new evil. But be careful and patient with new players, because everyone, even the best of the best, starts out in diapers.
Zoldren
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Postby Zoldren » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:10 pm

Shrug, wheni joined here a while back, i started as a paladin, i got to lvl 13 and said fug this, cause i never could get a group, my rl friend had just rolled a troll, so i rolled, you guessed it, zoldren

I didnt get in groups because i was leet or anything else, the reason i got into groups is because 1) i was willing to learn 2) i fuggin knew my class 3) took the time to learn my spells HELP SPELLNAME HELP SKILLNAME for every one of my skills/spells, I was fortunate to be allowed in a few zones with Laz leading, he was an awesome leader, i learned alot being in those groups.

I knew it was going to be hard being evil *see char creation* but after rolling it was already funner, the people,the attitudes, the actualy learning the ropes *zones etc* and learning my skills/hometown on my own.

the reason people get pissed off now, is after sooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo many "noobies" creating a new evil, %1 tells you wheres the inn %1 tells you wheres the fountain %1 tells you wheres dk troll tells you wheres ghore, tells you how to i get to dk from ghore, %1 tells you where can i get exp tells you where can i get armor potion %1 tells you mind leveling me some %1 skill/spell not learned or not practiced is it important? lvl46 tells you where is ghore from fang? lvl 50 tells you gate me from fang plz dono how to walk to dk etc etc etc list goes on and on

nobody bothers to learn the fuggin class/race/hometown if you cant do that why should anyone bother to help you in an *evil* environment you obviously shouldnt be on the evil side you should be on the good learning the mud, and you sure as hell shouldnt be zoning with them.

everyone talks about the anon being bad, how many people remember when 3/4 of the evil zoning population was anon? and if they didnt know you you didnt go that simple unless you got lucky and they needed you and you wernt a dumbass

point being, you put in the effort, and no matter which side you are on, you will get respect and help, if you dont, you might be treated with pitty if your lucky on the good side and someoen help you out, but you will be treated like a dumbass who needs to learn how to play on the evil side


this is how things have always been, and always will be. Evils are not MENT for true newbies unless they can puttheir hearts into it, blood sweet and tears into it. if you cant do that, and you want to be evil, dont whine the first 5000 times you are shuned. Zoning/exp/friends comes with knowledge of YOUR class/race and basicly effort on your side, dont expect everything handed to you.

feh i hate ranting
MoM-D
Originally posted by Baikalisan:
There once was a girl named Pinky
Who liked to flash and get kinky
We gave her some cash
She went down in a flash
And made us all squirm like a slinky!
Cordan
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Postby Cordan » Wed Nov 26, 2003 2:17 pm

Zoldren wrote:this is how things have always been, and always will be.



Guess that settles that then!
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:04 pm

Zoldren wrote:this is how things have always been, and always will be. Evils are not MENT for true newbies unless they can puttheir hearts into it, blood sweet and tears into it. if you cant do that, and you want to be evil, dont whine the first 5000 times you are shuned. Zoning/exp/friends comes with knowledge of YOUR class/race and basicly effort on your side, dont expect everything handed to you.

feh i hate ranting


Ok so don't whine because nobody wants to play with your asses, if that's the attitude your gonna have. Who the hell do you think is gonna sit around and wait for the mighty evils to accept then and finally let them come do a zone!?! Nobody, and that's why you have no players. Wake up.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:13 pm

...
Last edited by Sesexe on Thu Dec 18, 2003 4:59 pm, edited 2 times in total.
thanuk
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Postby thanuk » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:26 pm

Sesexe wrote: He never had any serious intention of being one.

So what's wrong with me pointing out that fact? Come on. Be real here. You can’t honestly try something and be fair and impartial about it if your view is biased. Then it’s just inaccurate and untrue when applied to a group situation.

If folks are going to talk about their recent experiences as evilrace here, it would be nice if they were fair about it, ya know? I mean come on, some of us are trying really hard to change things. Be fair is all I’m asking. :(


Well you coulda just said that, instead of getting all Freudian on him:)

Anyway I know what you're trying to do, and I want to help beleive it or not. I miss competing with the evils, and all these other scrub goodies just can't do it, so we need you guys to start zoning again and keep things interesting. But what I'm saying is you'd be better off going after a select group of people than everyone. You don't want true n00bs because its too hard to learn the game for the first time as an evil. And you don't want established goodies cuz they aren't gonna have any loyalty for the evil side. You want the new blood who might actually stick around and play, so you want midlevel goodies. And if you want to get them to come play with you, the first thing your gonna have to do is get rid of attitudes like this:

Zoldren wrote:this is how things have always been, and always will be. Evils are not MENT for true newbies unless they can puttheir hearts into it, blood sweet and tears into it. if you cant do that, and you want to be evil, dont whine the first 5000 times you are shuned. Zoning/exp/friends comes with knowledge of YOUR class/race and basicly effort on your side, dont expect everything handed to you.


The other thing i suggest is trying to convince a whole guild or a clique of people to all go evil together. If you can get like 5-10 people who all group together and go on at the same time to all become evil together, they won't get bored because they have nobody to group with, and they might actually stick with it. Just don't give them the famous ebil charm when they get there:)

Good luck.
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'

You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'

Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'

You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'

Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Sarkhon
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Postby Sarkhon » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:33 pm

Zoldren wrote:this is how things have always been, and always will be. Evils are not MENT for true newbies unless they can puttheir hearts into it, blood sweet and tears into it. if you cant do that, and you want to be evil, dont whine the first 5000 times you are shuned.


That's pretty comical. So let's get this straight, we recognize you won't be luring away the goodie elite, yet you propogate this type of attitude towards newbies on a public message board? Where do you think that leaves you? Here's a hint: right where you are now, pleading to now be able to GROUP with many of the goodies who you have previously shunned away.

The time of acting like this is LONG over -- you have neither the pbase nor the influx of new players to continue this kind of behavior. Start listening with an *open mind* to what many of us oldschool goodies have suggested, and quit acting like such elitist pricks on public forums (and this goes doubly true if you're inactive). You CAN improve your situation, but it's going to take a concerted effort by the so-called evil elite to clamp down on many of your worst offenders until any real progress is made.
Cordan
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Postby Cordan » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:35 pm

So you asked why people play goodies vs evils. Most, if not all of the responses you get will be from goodies. So we goods who have had experiences responded, mostly bad, a few good from those goodies who went evil and stayed evil. Why did they stay evil?

BECAUSE THEY FIT IN AND MET THE STANDARDS

They came, they met the standards set by those like Zoldren, and they were accepted.

Maybe the standards are to high? Not everyone can be that good.
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Postby Gura » Wed Nov 26, 2003 3:56 pm

how about some constructive ideas on how to improve the pbase
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Nokie wiggles his bottom.
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Postby Salen » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:06 pm

[quote="thanuk"]

The other thing i suggest is trying to convince a whole guild or a clique of people to all go evil together. If you can get like 5-10 people who all group together and go on at the same time to all become evil together, they won't get bored because they have nobody to group with, and they might actually stick with it. Just don't give them the famous ebil charm when they get there:)
quote]

Actually, that's been tried before. All 6 of the 40+ I mentioned that CheeseDick ran off went together to level up and play evils. They all have been here since 'The Dream' or so.
Then, because they weren't the 'cool' evils, they were ridiculed over stupid crap. So, they came back to play goods.

Oh, and for the record, quit telling me what I was and wasn't going to do. I have a full set of priest-ish eq, who the F are you guys to tell me that I wouldn't move it and play a shaman? Hell, I even rented in BG before I rolled just so I could move it and not have to do insanely long mindless xp.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Nov 26, 2003 4:37 pm

Sesexe wrote:Ambar, please relax and un-wield that dangerous Crusading Ogre flail you’re flogging with.


I'm not quite sure why this scares me :P

I don't think i have said anything radical here ... haven't flamed anyone (I hope?)
Haven't stood on any soapboxes (I'd crush them)
Have tried to add my own opinion (worthless I may add)

Whats wrong with thinking that Ogre shaman is the only viable shaman class? :P Some of the people I respect most are Ogre shaman so I tended to model Amby after them (Oosh, Lurgo, Kuurg) ...feh add Rokub in there somewhere but don't tell him cause even he knows Ogre >>> Orc

I tried barb last wipe ... was ok but Ogre was more fun .. tried Troll whatever wipe occured in 1996 ... was ok ... but Ogre is more fun ..

In general we are going to argue the point until we are all pissed off and the thread gets locked .. You are simply going to play with people you feel most comfortable playing with ... so far my BEST experiences mud wise were back when CC and OD were about even par as far as superior players (I'm JUST getting to know good guilds so I'm not gonna mention their names ... but everyone knows which guilds the better goodie guilds are) ...

We (yes I say WE and no I don't think I am oober leet .. I was just in an Oober leet guild) set standards, in most older evils opinions they are acceptable standards, the Gura's, the Zoldren's, the Uzzel's, the Lazz's, the Baldo's, the Gyrx's, the Ssryth's, the Jaznolg's and Jegzed's, the Cherzra's .... there are so many more I am failing to mention ..

Either evils need to lower their set standards, or we need to actively teach the newer guys (as you all did with me) the evil way ... yes there IS a difference .. I see it now that I am being asked to goodie zones ... I'd say goodies are more relaxed, leaders are more lenient with errors, where evils tend to be more judgemental, and unforgiving (I LIKE that style so no I am not complaining)

I take the lessons I learned while guilded with the players I mentioned above, and join goodie exp groups ... I do what to me seems natural (stoning like 4 people, hasting 4 or 5, embodying, pwb'ing .. most of that my enchanter does normally) and goodes see that as awesome skills .. to me it is normal and I'm only doing what I was taught.... I drive my exp groups and am called hardassed cause I wont stop to mem (I encourage early memming out) .. At the same time people seem to like me (NO I dont pay them to like me) seemingly because of the approach I use .. I dont demand .. i ask nicely .. i stop to teach people things (or try to) .. perhaps it is that I employ tactics from both good side and evil??? who knows

and I'm going to end the rambling cause my mind is working overtime again... but maybe someone will read it and add to it ...

-my 2 coppers..

-Jennifer
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Postby old depok » Wed Nov 26, 2003 5:53 pm

Ambar wrote:
Sesexe wrote:Ambar, please relax and un-wield that dangerous Crusading Ogre flail you’re flogging with.

Either evils need to lower their set standards, or we need to actively teach the newer guys (as you all did with me) the evil way ... yes there IS a difference .. I see it now that I am being asked to goodie zones ... I'd say goodies are more relaxed, leaders are more lenient with errors, where evils tend to be more judgemental, and unforgiving (I LIKE that style so no I am not complaining)

I take the lessons I learned while guilded with the players I mentioned above, and join goodie exp groups ... I do what to me seems natural (stoning like 4 people, hasting 4 or 5, embodying, pwb'ing .. most of that my enchanter does normally) and goodes see that as awesome skills .. to me it is normal and I'm only doing what I was taught.... I drive my exp groups and am called hardassed cause I wont stop to mem (I encourage early memming out) .. At the same time people seem to like me (NO I dont pay them to like me) seemingly because of the approach I use .. I dont demand .. i ask nicely .. i stop to teach people things (or try to) .. perhaps it is that I employ tactics from both good side and evil??? who knows

-Jennifer


These are the standards that goodies at the high end have as well. If we see someone that doesn't meet these standards we try to teach them. If they don't want to learn that's fine. They don't get grouped again unless we have to.

While we are pretty laid back at the time of the screw ups, they are noted and when we are looking for people to do a zone we always ask "anyone know X enchanter? Are they any good?" If they aren't there is a rousing response of NO! DO NOT ADD THEM!

The difference from your post seems to be how we address people who do not meet the expectations.

Don't lower your expectations. Communicate them clearly. Reinforce positive behavior. And teach.

And place them in situations where they can succed. Don't expect that the cleric who did jot grid with two other clerics can now do one cleric Seelie.

my 2 coppers
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Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:10 am

Gura wrote:how about some constructive ideas on how to improve the pbase


1. get rid of the penalty for exping in a group. yadda yadda yadda there is no penalty yadda yadda yadda i dont care what the code says ask any player if there is an exp penalty for large groups.

2. Direct newbies to the easiest race to start with. On goody this is a human. on evil this is a drow.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Uzzel » Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:02 am

Stamm wrote:Something to consider!

It's not just goodies and evils.

It's evils, some goodies, other goodies, more goodies.



Here is a major missunderstanding right here.
Evils are not just evils as one united group.
You can just as well say it's goodies, some evils, other evils and more evils.

One of the problems is that the groups of evils aint as big as the goodie fractions but all the same they are still there.

There are evils and goodies out there that are clueless but with good intents and big mouths, and skilled people that dont speak up at all.

Speaking only for myself only, I love playing evilrace and have done so since my poor Anti got throwns out of WD but I'd rather play a goodie with people that get the job done (For better or worse) and even might learn something from them, then getting killed over and over by bigmouthknowitallgoodintentevils that never learns and think they are gods gift to mudding.

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Postby Mitharx » Thu Nov 27, 2003 9:42 am

I'm not gonna say this as well, but I find Cordan's post above hilarious.

It makes someone better to play a race with better natural stats? They are "put in harder situations" but only so much when it comes to feeling things out (true newbies) and possibly amount of areas to xp. We do the same zones. We face most of the same challenges and do so with less hps.

Yet, somehow the logic follows that we do this on the goodie side because we're not good enough to do it on a side that seems to have some natural racial advantages. WTF?

We've got really good players on goodie side who make due with what they got and pull some cool stunts. Same as you guys. To assume these great players didn't play evils because "They couldn't make it" is just BS.

This is why I agree with the other posts that talk about attitude (not negative, but personality based) being the primary deciding factor. Not sure where you got this idea from.
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Postby Cordan » Thu Nov 27, 2003 1:58 pm

Mitharx wrote:I'm not gonna say this as well, but I find Cordan's post above hilarious.

It makes someone better to play a race with better natural stats? They are "put in harder situations" but only so much when it comes to feeling things out (true newbies) and possibly amount of areas to xp. We do the same zones. We face most of the same challenges and do so with less hps.

Yet, somehow the logic follows that we do this on the goodie side because we're not good enough to do it on a side that seems to have some natural racial advantages. WTF?

We've got really good players on goodie side who make due with what they got and pull some cool stunts. Same as you guys. To assume these great players didn't play evils because "They couldn't make it" is just BS.

This is why I agree with the other posts that talk about attitude (not negative, but personality based) being the primary deciding factor. Not sure where you got this idea from.


ROFL. Can you read?

I never said great players don't play evils because they couldn't make it. Let me summarize for those that have a hard time understanding.

A. Average players who play evils have a hard time learning because of the great evil players attitudes, thus they play goodies. More of a melting pot, easier to fit in. Easier learning atmosphere (this is reflected oh so clearly in the poll in the other forum).
B. Great, elite, whatever goodie players will STAY goodies, because 1. They're tired of xp 2. They've made a place for themselves in goodie society. I NEVER once said they couldn't make it :P

I'm not sure wth your talking about mitharx, but it's not my posts.
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Postby Yayaril » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:30 pm

8)

It sure did sound like Cordan was saying that evils have higher standards and not everyone 'makes the cut'.
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Postby Stamm » Thu Nov 27, 2003 2:59 pm

*nod* It's an attitude I'm not sure a lot of evils even recognise they have.

And now that I mention it, I bet us goodies are guilty of a similar attitude.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 27, 2003 3:53 pm

Stamm wrote:*nod* It's an attitude I'm not sure a lot of evils even recognise they have.

And now that I mention it, I bet us goodies are guilty of a similar attitude.


name some people? everyone that i've talked to has never said "oh look gura/ambar/lurgo/jegzed is playing a goodie, let's laugh at him". I always thought "sick, another skilled player to play with."
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby rarlaj » Thu Nov 27, 2003 4:58 pm

Greetings,

Lots of people are posting to this so I figured I would also...

I am a noobie for the most part... I have been playing off and on since torilmud the first go around...

In my limitied exposure to the evil pbase, I have had nothing and I mean nothing but good experiences. I understand with the limited pbase, you get groups even if you cant play your class, but the Countless times, I have recieved advice from the evils (rather just my god you suck from a goodie), more than makes up for playing blind by the seat of your pants.

I played (yes past tense) a barbarian warrior for 40+ lvls and was asked 3 times to zone... 3 times... why? not because i was liked, not because i was available... but because I was THE ONLY tank available... It didnt matter that my bash was 90ish or that i had a good ac... it was because i was the only tank on....

I moved over to the "dark" side with the guild i was in, and picked up a prayer book and totem. First time i had ever played a shaman, I have leveled to 44 and already have zoned more in the short months than the year i played good. I realize most are gonna say any idiot can run a tank, it takes skill to run a cast... wrong i am here to prove... if you listen and do your job... anyone can play any class...

I guess what I am trying to say is (in my exp) Goodies assume you know how to play your class and just b*tch if you dont.... Goodies do a popularity poll before zoning... and if you dont have the Miss/Mr. Tank sash on before you go down the runway you dont get the crown....

Evils give you tips instead of b*tching cause you cant play your class...
Evils give countless hours of experience for the low level characters....
Evils drop what they are doing to cr a newbie (with newbie eq) when the paladin group picks on one of our own...
Evils dont give the response of "well ask someothergoodie to do what your asking me cause i am practicing my pose at 3west".

Most of the people I have grouped with can tell you that I may not be the best shaman on the mud... but by god I am there and if there is a spank I get spanked right along with everyone else... I dont word and log off and worry about supper dishes...

Most of the posts that I have read break down to goodies b*tching about Evils and there splitting of loot...
What i have seen first hand is... do your job... if your the tank tank... if your the cleric heal.. if your the shaman annoy the hell out of everyone asking what you should do at any certain time... but do it.... the leader of the group will take care of everyone... it might not be this zone... but it will be some zone....
If you think your god's gift to your class... try a necro and leave us noobies and learning elite alone so we get zone time to...

well that is my rant... dont bother flaming me here... i have a dedicated email address just for people that have nothing better to do than blast my opinions.. you can reach me at drunkenredneck3@netwitz.net or yarddog62801@yahoo....

look forward to seeing you in the zone
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Postby Tasan » Thu Nov 27, 2003 6:38 pm

Dezzex wrote:
Tasan wrote:
I rolled a cleric, got to level 15 with some help from some people I knew, and now anytime I log on, I sit at the fountain for 20 minutes before getting bored and leaving.

Seems like you don't need clerics all that badly.



Ok, this is a joke right? :P Because haha you had me going.


The sad thing is you think so, and yet evils bitch about pbase. Now that's funny.

As for Zold... Everyone likes someone w/ a gimmick :) Pink is good.

Gura - How about for starters:

  1. Give up the evil mentality that it's harder to play and should be. Those days are long gone, and you can't continue to tout it as difficult as it used to be.
  2. For every youngin'(yes, not going to refer to people as noob anymore, I'll reserve this for stupid people) that you get a question from, you act as if they might be the next great evil leader, and help them out. Yeah, you don't want to walk someone from BT to DK. Yeah you don't want to have to tell them where everything in town is. You can however give them general hints and help them learn on their own. Constructive hints like "stay away from suchandsuch place because you could be killed" are a lot better than straight directions. Everyone knows the old adage, "teach a man to fish", well in telling them exactly where things are, and being snide about every single question, you as a group promote that activity. I'm not trying to single and particular evil out since I've seen this happen on numerous occasions.
  3. Get people excited about playing an evil. So far in this thread there are many posts that I would look at as a true new player and think to myself, "now why would I want to even try being an evil when they are so coarse on a public board?". Shove the attitude, swallow some pride and do like Lilithelle. One of the players I admire most, Lil works 150% on helping everyone she can. I've actually gotten pissed at myself and other people for costing Lil time and energy at points. Lil answers anyone's questions fairly, and places them in a position to succeed on their own, and not just w/ her help. She randomly wells around to youngins to provide a bark, or some assistance, but doesn't overdo anything. The evils could learn something from this sort of attitude.
  4. Accept that this whole thing is going to take time and effort. I think this is the biggest problem. Most of you want a quick fix to the problem, and don't want to have to work for it. Well tough. You wanted to play the more "elite, tougher" side, deal with it. I have mucho respect for a lot of you, but I can't honestly agree with the "holier than thou" attitude when you ask for the staff to hand you a pbase.


Thanuk - When I started my evil cleric, I did want to level up on their side and play, cuz I knew a lot of evils that I never really got to play with. The frustration involved with leveling was more than enough to cause me to start some new goodie alts though. I wasn't one of the people that moved a shitton of eq to my evil to level, I wanted to be anonymous because I wanted the full evil experience. All I got was a lot of waiting at the fountain because in all honesty, a cleric can NOT solo at that low of a level.

Sorry for the rant, but I needed to say some shit.

T
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Postby Mitharx » Thu Nov 27, 2003 8:29 pm

"Maybe the standards are to high? Not everyone can be that good."

This is what I'm talking about and this is what Stamm and several others are pointing to.

Someone rolls a newbie and couldn't make it in your world. You say it's okay to treat them rougher than they would be on the goodie side because otherwise they're just not that good and they don't fit your high standards.

What if that same loser joined goodie side and ended up being a really good and dedicated player? All they needed was a bit more of the time and efforts put in by the people who now claim that they have every right to treat newbies the way they do. If these people can make it on the goody side w/out natural racial advantages then I bet they could be just fine as clerics on the evil side.

They just didn't meet your immediate test of being treated rougher than many people who play a game for fun would like to be treated. It sounds like that encourages whipping boys or people with really strong attitudes to play that side. And no I'm not calling evils that. I have many friends who are evils and I think they're great people. I'm willing to bet they treat their fellow evils (especially the newbies) very well.

But there is an attitude in your post above whether you see it or not. It says that if a player didn't make it in evils it's because they just weren't good enough. I think you're wrong. I think people get turned off by the attitudes. Now you clarify a bit what you're saying in a later post, but this can apply to toril as well.

Short bursts of attitude and anger towards a newer player gets him turned off towards you and maybe evils and maybe the game. You did mean it the way they took it, but that doesn't matter. Not all newbies are grain of salt people.

It really doesn't matter to me if you guys lose or keep or change or do whatever with that attitude that many people notice but some people say doesn't exist. I can't say it does either way and even if I think it did I hate blanket statements. I am pointing specifically to the quote above and a general feeling that seems to be in this post and the the one in gp discussion as well.

If a large majority of evils feel that there is nothign wrong with the way they act towards newbies and their attitudes, cool. I say more power to you and have fun with the game. For all I know you're right. There isn't ever one right way to handle situations. But the point of this post and others was to point out possibilities on why the evil pbase might be tiny and this seems to be one of them. Ignore it if you want. I guess it doesn't matter.
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Postby Dezzex » Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:03 pm

damn double posts
Last edited by Dezzex on Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:04 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dezzex » Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:04 pm

Ok, this is a joke right? :P Because haha you had me going.

The sad thing is you think so, and yet evils bitch about pbase. Now that's funny.


No the sad thing is that you seriously believe we are gonna roll over in joy at the fact that you have a level 15 cleric standing at the DK fountain for 20 mins.

Let me clarify what evils need.

What we need are people who are willing to spend the time building an evil character they actually give a crap about. People who want to become part of the evil culture. Sorry, but we have some pride and not all of us just want a bunch of converted elite goodies so we can go zone all day. I like the good/evil rivalry. I like the fact that we do things differently, and the game hosts this awesome dichotomy.

I don't know where this idea comes from that we shove newbies aside like grains of salt. If we do, I'm disappointed that that has happened. For the record I will: CR any newbie exploring, anytime, anyplace. All you need is ask. I will: Point you in general directions to anywhere you want to go. I will: Help you along with decent equipment if you want it.

I realize that it takes a certain personality and work to become accepted as an evil -- but that's the point. And it ain't even that hard. Ask Sservis. All it takes is a little caring. Obviously our pbase suffers because of it. Fine.

Don't even bother replying with "if that's your attitude then stop whining", because I realize the situation, and I don't wish to whine about it. If it means having a smaller pbase versus losing our identity entirely, I'd choose the smaller pbase. The only solution as I see it is new players, and that'd be good just for the game in general not just for evils.
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Postby Stamm » Thu Nov 27, 2003 11:14 pm

Regardless of what anybody says or thinks about evils... Sservis really is a nice guy. He does know his stuff, he's interested in improving his skills and getting a better understanding of the game. He's at the point in the game when most people seem to assume they have nothing more to learn. I don't know if he's the most experienced evil around, or if he's relatively new or if he's an old hand, or what. But he's certainly reached that point where some players feel there is nothing more to learn.

He's also taken the time to show me around Hyssk when I rolled up a yuan-ti, and explain how things work. I'm pretty sure he'd be doing that for anybody that rolled a yuan-ti. Also, the first one I rolled when I was checking stats... while doing that I had a couple of evils, out of the blue, send me tells asking if I was ok. I can't remember that happening as a goodie lowbie, but it's years since I rolled Stamm and I've never really been big on alts.
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Postby Dizzin » Fri Nov 28, 2003 12:11 am

Good Post Dezz.

And honestly, Twyl, you cant really expect just because you sit at fountain that someone's going to come along and ask if you wanna group. If you really wanted to play, then all you had to do was go start killing, or maybe ask someone out there if they wanted to group.

Like Dezz said, we dont want goodies coming over expecting to be plevelled until they can zone. We want players who want to learn and want some challenge. And ones that may even buy into the evil lifestyle.

Yes yes, I know most people think of that as some bad attitude, but I see it more like living in a small town. We know everyone around. We know who the village idiot is, and who's the biggest braggart, and who's the biggest blowhard. etc And to an occasional tourist, that blowhard seems to be the biggest jerk you've ever seen. But to everyone in town, it's just Jack being Jack and you totally zone them out. Although I do agree that's why it's hard to get people to come stay as evils. They have a couple experiences with the loudmouth, and decide nuts to this! And I dont really blame them. And so I dont really cry about the lack of an evil pbase.

We do what we can with what we've got. And we encourage people to start, but we dont hold their hand. There was a current thread on the BBS about Tough Love. Well that's pretty much what new evils get. They get told directions to important places that they need to know, they get told what to avoid and where to get good exp. There's times when they get some bonus exp from high-levels.

But to expect that just because you're a cleric, that somehow sitting at fountain for 20 mins means that we should come powerlevel you? And you cant blame the level 20 troll warrior who just started playing evils and regens faster than he knows what to do with for not wanting to group with a healer. HE doesn't know that that cleric he didn't need at level 20 will become an utter requirement at level 40.

Like Thanuk said, we dont really want established high-level goodies to come over and play evil. I'll come out and admit it right here that the thought of most of you playing evils turns my stomach!

But for the mid-level goodies, those who are playing that level 25 paladin, or level 18 cleric, or any level of ranger! You who are just getting to know the game. Come, roll a drow cleric. Roll an orc or ogre shaman. Try them out for a couple weeks. You'll find the exp around DK to be immensely faster from 1-20 than anywhere on the goodie side. And then you have a good base to jump off from. To learn the game, to get into a zone group whenever there's one going on, to make some friends.

To just have fun.
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Postby Cordan » Fri Nov 28, 2003 3:47 am

Mitharx wrote:"Maybe the standards are to high? Not everyone can be that good."

This is what I'm talking about and this is what Stamm and several others are pointing to.

Someone rolls a newbie and couldn't make it in your world. You say it's okay to treat them rougher than they would be on the goodie side because otherwise they're just not that good and they don't fit your high standards.

What if that same loser joined goodie side and ended up being a really good and dedicated player? All they needed was a bit more of the time and efforts put in by the people who now claim that they have every right to treat newbies the way they do. If these people can make it on the goody side w/out natural racial advantages then I bet they could be just fine as clerics on the evil side.

They just didn't meet your immediate test of being treated rougher than many people who play a game for fun would like to be treated. It sounds like that encourages whipping boys or people with really strong attitudes to play that side. And no I'm not calling evils that. I have many friends who are evils and I think they're great people. I'm willing to bet they treat their fellow evils (especially the newbies) very well.

But there is an attitude in your post above whether you see it or not. It says that if a player didn't make it in evils it's because they just weren't good enough. I think you're wrong. I think people get turned off by the attitudes. Now you clarify a bit what you're saying in a later post, but this can apply to toril as well.

Short bursts of attitude and anger towards a newer player gets him turned off towards you and maybe evils and maybe the game. You did mean it the way they took it, but that doesn't matter. Not all newbies are grain of salt people.

It really doesn't matter to me if you guys lose or keep or change or do whatever with that attitude that many people notice but some people say doesn't exist. I can't say it does either way and even if I think it did I hate blanket statements. I am pointing specifically to the quote above and a general feeling that seems to be in this post and the the one in gp discussion as well.

If a large majority of evils feel that there is nothign wrong with the way they act towards newbies and their attitudes, cool. I say more power to you and have fun with the game. For all I know you're right. There isn't ever one right way to handle situations. But the point of this post and others was to point out possibilities on why the evil pbase might be tiny and this seems to be one of them. Ignore it if you want. I guess it doesn't matter.


First off, it's not MY immediate test. I think it's screwed. Second, I think you guys aren't reading my posts closely enough to realize that what you spelled out above is exactly what I'm saying. And the attitude you refer to does not say that they weren't good enough so they quit, it's that they weren't good enough for the evils, therefore the evils shunned them, cursed at them, what have you, then they left for the good side.

I primarily play a goodie for exactly that reason. Mitharx, we're in agreement. So don't give me the "you" and "you guys". That just shows me that you've read only what you've wanted to read, and thought you understood it.

I hate it when people read something without trying to understand it. I guess I should tone down my word usage and use grunting instead, maybe my point will be clearer.

Grunt.
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:13 am

Ambar wrote:
Teyaha .... hun i love ya dearly but you bring a LOT of shit onto yourself in your posts and in your behavior .. you HAVE to admit that ..... hell a couple weeks ago i accidently killed your mob (it was hurt and before i noticed to disengage it was dead), apologized profusely and you basically turned your nose up at ME :P


oops.

dont assume my silence is turning my nose up. i actually dont yap as much in game as i used to. if i was actually perturbed about it i would have laid into you verbally. :) some personality traits are hard to change.
Teyaha
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Postby Teyaha » Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:23 am

my suggestions

get rid of the lizardman outside of ghore. requiring a new troll to fight a bit to afford a raft is fine, lizardmen is not.

get rid of all aggros in hyssk!! make it aggro to other races - that's fine, but get rid of the newbie smashing of that town. it's stupid.

the two above things, on a game where when you die all your shit is left with your corpse, does not help promote exploration. my fear of losing the lowbie crap i own atm is keeping me from ever exploring the UD..ever, never, ever.

let drows be illusionists if you dont plan to fix hyssk.

let drow be elementalists if you dont plan to remove the water tunnel between dk and settlement.

make the xp grids around dk worth a damn

get rid of vines

also, stop playing anon. also evils stop rolling new alts each week, send me a tell with a nasty sarcastic comment and/or question, and expect me or anyone else to take it. we dont automatically know who you are.
Mitharx
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Postby Mitharx » Fri Nov 28, 2003 4:32 am

Cordan, there are many people who took the post the same way I did. I addressed it directly because I believe the statement you made is a perceived problem for the evil side.

Communication is about making your point in a clear and precise manor. Since several people saw the post the way I did, I would say you did not communicate clearly. Fine, no biggy. Grunting, as if you have such an excellent grasp on communicating points and the people who understood your comment differently do not, is counterproductive to making an argument. It's an attack and not necessary. Try to cut the flames and stick directly to your point. Thank you.

P.S. If you felt flamed on the post above, I apologize. I was feeling a bit insulted about the comments.
Tasan
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Postby Tasan » Fri Nov 28, 2003 7:34 am

You guys just don't seem to get it.

Dizzin wrote:We want players who want to learn and want some challenge. And ones that may even buy into the evil lifestyle.


Dezzex wrote:What we need are people who are willing to spend the time building an evil character they actually give a crap about. People who want to become part of the evil culture. Sorry, but we have some pride and not all of us just want a bunch of converted elite goodies so we can go zone all day. I like the good/evil rivalry. I like the fact that we do things differently, and the game hosts this awesome dichotomy.


I didn't sit at the fountain 1 time and wait for a group and give up. This is weeks of this happening. Casting armor on everyone that comes by, trying to solo w/ *gasp* the mind-shattering power of earthquake... I tried those things. I never once asked some random evil to "plevel" me, because that's not what I wanted. Read my post again, especially the part where I didn't transfer eq, and wanted to get the full experience. There were times when I'd get into groups, and I was happy and tried my best to do my part.

You can think what you want about those goodies who have achieved quite a bit coming to your side and playing, and that just comes right back to the attitude. Not one, but several evils have gone to good lately, and just as Dartan said, we love that... more good people to play with rocks.

T
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'



Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'



Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Dezzex
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Postby Dezzex » Fri Nov 28, 2003 9:08 am

Tasan wrote:You guys just don't seem to get it.



Oh? Please explain what it is we don't get, because I said explicitly in my post and Dizzin implied in his that we are completely away of the tradeoff between new players and holding onto what we value as an evil community.

As for your effort in leveling up Twyl, that's all great and I respect that. I only quoted you earlier because your first post merely mentioned "15th level cleric" and 20 mins of fountain-sitting, which on the face of it even you must admit seemed laughable without further clarification.

But back to OUR point. You're an experienced player. There is no doubt that you have the ability to surpass level 15. If you really wanted to, you could have. And that's exactly it... we want people who care enough to stick around, not pull out the evil alt whenever they feel bored.

So clarify why you left -- if it was the fact that there was no activity/groups (as you seem to imply by mentioning fountain sitting), then that's the pbase issue, not attitudes. If you left because you were treated like crap as a newbie, then obviously I too consider that poor and unwarranted treament on our part.

So ultimately what are we left with -- little pbase, some old evils who would prefer to build the who list with true evil players, and a slew of goodies who can't help the situation but like to mock us for our attitudes and values. If there's not going to be an influx of new evil characters (read: if Toril does not attract a sufficient number of *new* players), then sure, we might as well merge the good/evils and let them group because the whole racewar atmosphere is extinct.

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