Evil race warriors

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Grimenkhan
Sojourner
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:01 am

Evil race warriors

Postby Grimenkhan » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:10 am

Ok I can already hear the howls of protest on this one. :P but read all the through before turning your flame throwers on.

I would like to see warriors on the evil side be a bit more racially diverse.

I think duergars need some lovin as warriors. There is really no good reason to roll anything but a troll as tank type warrior. Ogres if played well work also, but thier terrible AGI limits them a bit leveling up imho. Duergar have some nifty innates but in the long run, cant compete with trolls regen and ogres massive HP's and damage.

I've recently returned to playing evils. Before I played a caster. This time around I thought a warrior would be fun. So I have tried troll, ogre and duergar to level 30. Just as test. Knowing full well that I *wanted* to play a duergar.

Trolls far and away are the best. With the exception of thier fire problem they level like mad - regen rocks. Thier AGI and DEX seems to be very high, with AGI being awesome. Thier HP's are pretty nice also. Thier INT and WIS seems lacking but its not important for a warrior anyway.

Seems like almost every evil warrior is a Troll.

Ogres are like mack trucks. Huge HP's great STR and CON. But get nailed hard as tanks coming up. They have a nice niche as bashers and hard hitting clubbers. Damage Damage Damage. (Dwarfed by invokers of course :/ )

Duergar have some nice innates, seem to have a little less HP than Trolls, have worse AGI than trolls but better than Ogres. Thier DEX seems to be better than Trolls or ogres. Seems they may make decent clerics. Innates are offset, by day blindness.

Drow also have awesome AGI, and seem to have good DEX. Low on HPs. Seem like grey elf warriors with kicking innates.

Maybe give them a great hitall skill right out of the box with a higher cap, kind of a poor mans berseker?

Not sure how to do this, just commenting. :/

Blah

Grim
Teyaha
Sojourner
Posts: 1085
Joined: Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Teyaha » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:59 am

i'd like to see yuan ti as a whole looked at, but their warriors too.

yuan posed to be uber smart..why do we mem so slow?

and where is the compensation for losing so many eq slots?
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:03 am

IMHO Doogers make great warriors... Gromi was one of the best warriors I saw back in the day ... there was also that guy Morokator(spelling??(sorry Kris:P))

With all the day-blind preventative spells, ultravision isnt even a hindrance anymore .. By the time you are learnignt o explore, you have a psi, chanter, or mentalist friend to take with you ....

Wouldn't we equate a duergar tanking skillz with a surface dwarf?? (Honestly don't know ... am askin a question)
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."

-Italian Proverb
Grimenkhan
Sojourner
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:01 am

Postby Grimenkhan » Tue Dec 02, 2003 3:07 am

Good point. I forgot the snakes completly. get em also. :P
Stamm
Sojourner
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Stamm » Tue Dec 02, 2003 5:00 am

Hmm. Sorry Grimenkhan but do you realise that duergars are apparently nearly identical to mountain dwarves, except with better innates?

If they do need some loving, then is it not because trolls are so good in comparison, not because duergars are underpowered.

I certainly can't justify any mountain dwarf upgrades, I play one and I think we're a very effective race.

As for yuan-ti, well, if I was going to roll an evil warrior it'd be a yuan-ti (because there are so many trolls). They have pretty nice stats, and they do have infra. I'd like to see tail slot equipment removed, and yuan-ti able to wear a neck and a finger item on their tails. (neck at the thick part, and ring at the end) I don't like the idea of equipment just for yuan-ti, I can't think how that would work well other than being able to quest one item in to yuan-ti stuff.

Trolls on the other hand are just overpowered. Near elven agi, better than dwarven str, con. I have no idea about dex, but it doesn't affect tanking. As far as I can tell for tanking all that's important is agi and con. Trolls have this in abundance. The regen is nice, but won't factor for a level 50 troll tanking for a zone. The fire problem seems to vary depending on who I speak to. 'It's really not as bad as it sounds' to 'I can't zone'

I've personally always seen trolls as gangly things... Tall, but very thin, long arms, strong. But I wouldn't say they have particularly high constitution. Sure, they can regenerate, but they are skinny, sickly things. So if you do want to change evil racial stats to make for a more varied tank race choice...

Then drop troll con down significantly. Drop their fire damage penalty a little.

Find a solution to the yuan-ti equipment problem.

Leave duergar as they are.

Leave ogres as they are.

I know I'm a goodie and I'm going to get 'bah what do you know' but I do know a fair bit about tanking, and I have rolled a few evils to see what stats they get, and I am forever asking questions.
Grimenkhan
Sojourner
Posts: 17
Joined: Sat Jan 18, 2003 6:01 am

Postby Grimenkhan » Tue Dec 02, 2003 1:50 pm

I'm not saying you are wrong Stamm, but I really dont see a reason that good warriors like dwarves and barbarians have to be the same as evil race warriors. We are on seperate sides of the racewar and dont group. Having trolls with great agi and con is no big problem, because the evil side has never been so strong as to bother the good side that much.

Trolls are just fine as they are. But you are right they are good enough that very few ppl play anything else. Sure there has been some fine duergar, a drow or two - even saw a yuan-ti. But the numbers are still heavily tilted towards trolls. Yes a bit of diversity and more choices is what I was writing about.

I dont see a problem with duergar, yuan-ti or trolls being stronger in thier base stats, innates or skills than thier goodie counterparts. I dont think a few warriors on the evil side is going to effect things as much as the losing sorcerors and adding all the buffs have. It would be a small reward to the evil side and make playing a evill have a bit more allure. Warriors are still going to get smacked around w/o thier casting buffers.

Why exactly would it be necessary to downgrade trolls to make someone else better? Its not like things are balanced anyway, why try to keep things "even".
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Postby Hyldryn » Tue Dec 02, 2003 2:48 pm

I don't like the point your making with diversity and numbers of people playing a certain race. So what if most evil warriors are trolls? Most goodie warriors are dwarves and barbs.
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:05 pm

Hyldryn wrote:I don't like the point your making with diversity and numbers of people playing a certain race. So what if most evil warriors are trolls? Most goodie warriors are dwarves and barbs.


That is exactly his point. Why allow gnomes, halflings, yuan-ti, grey elves, drow elves, duergar, ogres or humans to be warriors if "most evil warriors are trolls and goodies warriors are dwarves and barbs"? That is 3-4 races out of 11 races that can be warriors being used to much extent.

I highly agree there needs to be more diversity with the races to make people want to play the other races.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Stamm
Sojourner
Posts: 446
Joined: Wed Jun 27, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Stamm » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:09 pm

Something which may encourage this is skills to be dependant on stats.

As far as I am able to tell, tanking skills do not depend on str or agi or dex.

Yes, agi affects your ac and damage taken from crits, but it doesn't seem to attect anything else. And having high str does not seem to help you parry.

If they were to be made dependant then one skill would probably need to get moved from str to agi, or dwarves/ogres/trolls/barbs would be too good in comparison.

Perhaps defense is the skill to move?
Werg
Sojourner
Posts: 180
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 5:01 am
Location: da Swamp
Contact:

Postby Werg » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:23 pm

Ok, so you guys are arguing that, for example, there should be some balancing so say... duergar warriors should be more equal to troll warriors?.

If that's the case, then I completely disagree. You can't balance everything, because then everything becomes the same. People play weaker race warriors for role play reasons, a reason that seems to be seen less and less on this BBS. There is no reason a duergar or a drow, for example, should be as good a warrior as a troll. And of course, there should be no reason a troll should be as good of a spellcaster as a duergar or a drow. That's just the way it is. This DOES make things more diverse.

This kinda reminds me of the other thread about the dayblind stuff, and races being harder, blah blah blah. Doesn't anybody play for RP reasons? Or is everybody just picking the "best race" for the "best class"?
Hyldryn
Sojourner
Posts: 399
Joined: Mon Apr 09, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Maryland

Postby Hyldryn » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:24 pm

There are good reasons to play other races and people do play other races. Some people don't care what "most" choose for their race.
thanuk
Sojourner
Posts: 1902
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 5:01 am
Contact:

Postby thanuk » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:27 pm

There's a reason there isn't many duergar warriors, just like there's a reason that there's not many basketball players who are 5'8. Some races are just better at some classes then others.

Honestly why would it be fair for a duergar to be as good a tank as a troll? Trolls can only be warriors or shaman, duergar have a whole lot of other classes to play. If they aren't gonna be better warriors or shaman than anyone else, why not just delete the race entirely?
Mysrel tells you 'have my babies'
You tell Mysrel 'u want me to be ur baby daddy?'
Mysrel tells you 'daddy? No, I think you have the terminology wrong'
You tell Mysrel 'comeon now we both know i would be the top'
Mysrel tells you 'can be where ever you want to be, yer still getting ****** like a drunken cheerleader'
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Tue Dec 02, 2003 4:31 pm

Some races are better at some things, and some races are better at others. You can be some vanilla troll warrior, or you can go with something a little less geared towards being the best tank in the game. Besides, it doesn't really matter what you did to duergar, you're not going to find much that will compete against troll regen for tanking.
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:00 pm

I am not saying that other races should be as good at tanking as a troll. I'm saying there should be other things that would make one want to play those other races. If I recall (I pay 0 attention to goodies so I maybe wrong) when hamstring first went in a lot more people started playing asslings, both warrior and thief. That is the kind of diversity I'm speaking of.

Idea:
Ogre body slam is twice as long as normal body slam and almost always stuns, but when ogres hitall they have a chance to hit group members as they're not always bright enough to tell friend from foe.

Stamm wrote:As far as I am able to tell, tanking skills do not depend on str or agi or dex.


That right there pretty much sums up my thoughts. Skills should be totally dependant on racial stats. So even though all warriors (and other classes for that matter) have a skill that caps at 90 their racial stats further modify this.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Disoputlip
Sojourner
Posts: 956
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2002 6:01 am
Location: Copenhagen

Postby Disoputlip » Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:19 pm

If you only made it to lvl 30 then I also would think trolls strongest. Mabye try to make both to 50. then zone a little with both.

In theory I don't see duergar warriors as bad for zonage, especially vs. casters.

Also, I don't see yuan warriors as bad. Only ever seen 1 lvl 50 warrior on though. (and he enjoyed the class).

I have never ever seen an orc warrior level 50.

/Puh Chew Goo
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:35 pm

Disoputlip wrote:I have never ever seen an orc warrior level 50.


Hell I've never seen an orc warrior period... I didn't know that orcs COULD be warriors.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Tue Dec 02, 2003 6:38 pm

there is an Orc Warrior
"When a child is born, so is a grandmother."



-Italian Proverb
Rihesesassixiz
Sojourner
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:51 pm

Postby Rihesesassixiz » Tue Dec 02, 2003 7:56 pm

I love playing an Ogre warrior. I'm not saying they should be the best tanks, but a few more HP each level wouldn't hurt :)
Gura
Sojourner
Posts: 672
Joined: Tue Nov 20, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Yer girlfriend's bed

Postby Gura » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:04 pm

ogres already get the most hps for any warrior.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'

Nokie wiggles his bottom.
Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'
Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
Rihesesassixiz
Sojourner
Posts: 58
Joined: Wed Aug 06, 2003 2:51 pm

Postby Rihesesassixiz » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:17 pm

Yes I know that but I'm a greedy Ogre.
mynazzaraxxsyn
Sojourner
Posts: 479
Joined: Mon Jul 07, 2003 10:00 pm
Location: Ixarkon
Contact:

Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Tue Dec 02, 2003 8:58 pm

Rihesesassixiz wrote:Yes I know that but I'm a greedy Ogre.


I thought you were a pirate...
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
Waelos
Sojourner
Posts: 499
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Atlanta, GA

Postby Waelos » Tue Dec 02, 2003 9:37 pm

"Why exactly would it be necessary to downgrade trolls to make someone else better? Its not like things are balanced anyway, why try to keep things "even"."

Then:

Why exactly would it be necessary to upgrade dark dwarves at all? Its not like things are balances anyway, why try to keep things "even".

So. . . uh, why bother with this thread at all, if not to try and squeeze an unwarranted upgrade out of it?

*snort*

Lost.

Return to “T2 Ideas Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests