Eliminate the strength check for dragging

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Eliminate the strength check for dragging

Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 2:50 pm

This was brought up on another thread and I thought it was a good idea so I moved it.

The question was would eliminting the strength check for dragging be unbalancing? This is because halflings and to a lesser extent elf rogues are not used as much in zones because they can not really CR effectively. Here are my thoughts...

Removing the strength check for draging corpses will not unbalance things. People would still roll dwarves for the extra damage, halflings for the extra attacks, humans for whatever reason people roll human rogues, and elves cause they get !fail sneak. It will just allow people to play elves and halflings rogues again.

As it is now, people only really take dwarves because they are the only ones that can CR the group. I have been in more than one group as a shaman and heard this "need to find a rogue for the group. Dwarf only"

Maybe make the check for moves not for dragging at all? Make sure that the check for moves allows corpses to be dragged for at least one room no matter what. Still give dwarves and humans a benefit for their strength but make it so that benefit is the ability to drag corpses farther.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:00 pm

Would say an illithid (the weakest of all races str wise) be able to now drag 3 equip'd ogre corpses? That I think might become unbalancing just from a matter of logistics.
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:05 pm

I guess the question is why would that be unbalancing?

Again, I would advocate making it a move penalty vs and can you or can't you.

Maybe the check is one corpse at a time. This way a dwarf (or Duerger) rogue could drag all the corpses in one room while a halfling (or squid) rogue would have to make a number of trips. This would again provided a benefit to dwarves (et all) which would be decreased risk.

Just trying to flesh this out some.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:19 pm

old depok wrote:Maybe the check is one corpse at a time. This way a dwarf (or Duerger) rogue could drag all the corpses in one room while a halfling (or squid) rogue would have to make a number of trips.


I'd be against this simply because I've worked to make sure I can take care of my group's CR'ing needs, and I'm pretty up to the gills with changes that make everything easier step by step until there isn't anything to have to work for anymore. The only corpses I'm incapable of dragging are the ones that are loaded to the gills, and even then I'm usually capable of lightening their load for them until I can drag them. The only time I can't drag a corpse is if the player has a bag that's so loaded down that I can't even lift it out of the corpse. The only time I couldn't drag a corpse, period, was when Toarn had a bug on his pcorpse that prevented me from dragging it.

Is there any pcorpse a halfling can't drag with enlarge?
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Postby Hyldryn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:24 pm

Well, halflings and gnomes are both weaker and smaller than elves... However, do not be fooled ladies! Rumors have it, gnome and halfling men are very virile to compensate.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:38 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Well, halflings and gnomes are both weaker and smaller than elves... However, do not be fooled ladies! Rumors have it, gnome and halfling men are very virile to compensate.


Yes but thats just because they put a condom on their head and go in that way.
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Postby thanuk » Mon Jan 05, 2004 3:52 pm

I've had a halfling rogue tell me he cant drag my empty corpse.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:08 pm

thanuk wrote:I've had a halfling rogue tell me he cant drag my empty corpse.


Did you tell him to turn it over?
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:27 pm

I was unable to drag a human Druid with a halfling with 126 strength. Wasn't enlarged but with 126 strength you would think anyone would be able to drag anyone else.

Having to get the elementalist (earth form) and Chanter (enlarge) back up to wherever you spank in order to start the CR is just not practicle. If this is the requirement for the job then maybe there should be some EQ made that grants this ability to halflings only?

If the main role of a rogue is scout and CR and certain races can't do one of those two jobs, then I would advocate that the race is broken for that class.

Would be like Human necro's not being able to animate ghosts because they couldn't hit a high enough strength. If this were happening you would say that Necro's were broken.
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:50 pm

Ashiwi wrote:
old depok wrote:Maybe the check is one corpse at a time. This way a dwarf (or Duerger) rogue could drag all the corpses in one room while a halfling (or squid) rogue would have to make a number of trips.


I'd be against this simply because I've worked to make sure I can take care of my group's CR'ing needs, and I'm pretty up to the gills with changes that make everything easier step by step until there isn't anything to have to work for anymore. The only corpses I'm incapable of dragging are the ones that are loaded to the gills, and even then I'm usually capable of lightening their load for them until I can drag them. The only time I can't drag a corpse is if the player has a bag that's so loaded down that I can't even lift it out of the corpse. The only time I couldn't drag a corpse, period, was when Toarn had a bug on his pcorpse that prevented me from dragging it.

Is there any pcorpse a halfling can't drag with enlarge?


Keep in mind Ash, that there is nothing a Halfling can do to address this issue. I think that the top obtainable strength currently (for rogue) is 128 or so. I have had 126. Didn't help.

So it's not like those halfling rogues are just slacking. It is just not possible right now. Which is why I think it is broken.

The issue is so bad that I would turn in ALL of my rogue gear Smoke invasion armor, tanari gloves, Storms, Tiny Blood earring, adie bands, fire invasion crown, golden crown, Monocle, Nighthunter greaves, Kings cloak, EVERYTHING, for 1 piece of +max str gear that would allow me to CR Barb warriors. One piece of gear with no other stats than +max_str. Even whole body.

The issue is bad enough that I will not play my halfling rogue now (much to everyone's delight mind you).
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 4:51 pm

Wasn't this the main reason they instituted a halfling-only skill, though? If you want to be strong you roll a dwarf, that's all there is to it. You knew a halfling was a puss when you rolled him, but he has a huge amount of dex, which is the rogue's prime skill, and they get another hit over elves. Not all races are equal, that's been established many, many times over.

Dwarves are much stronger than elves, don't even bother asking me how often I crit, but they suck at being rogues. As for your druid problem... I don't know what to say besides to ask if she was overloaded on her weight. If you're overloaded you can't drag either... you do know to lighten your load before trying to drag heavier PC's, right?
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:02 pm

I understand all that Ash, the issue however is that the main role of the class (today) is to CR. When I rolled my Halfling I never thought I would not be able to do that.

As you say the main attribute of a rogue is Dex. But there is no penalty for a Rogue with a bad dex (when I say bad I mean dwarf at 100). It's not like they can't open locks or can't sneak and hide. All they have to do is max their skills and they are !fail.

You can't max Drag.

I am not the only one who has posted about the inability to drag Nokie has said much the same.

I understand that there are benefits to halflings (um hamstring instead of drag? Trade you) in terms of attacks. But since melee is so screwed up that is not a good enough reason to roll any race but a dwarf.

How about we offer all halflings the option to change race to dwarf with their current skills and levels remaining where they are? How many would say no?

Keep in mind I am just as happy not to play a rogue these days. Everyone has one and I am happy to play my shaman in groups or soon my necro. I just feel for the other halfling rogues out there that are leveling up without knowing that they will be useless.

I saw two level 30+ halflings on yesterday. I didn't have the heart to tell to let them to reroll a dwarf now instead of wasting their time.
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:08 pm

Oh, and I don't know why you say dwarves suck at being rogues. What can't they do that other rogues can?

How does their lack of Dex hurt them?

I know there is the whole "dwarves suck at hide" thing out there but Pava and other dwarves have said that as soon as they max'd their skills they were !fail.

So I don't see any reason to increase your dex. Hell, Pibel had 117 dex and there was no disernable difference in his skills at that dex.
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:11 pm

Sorry depok, but given the immense array of skills a rogue brings to the table, saying their primary role now is CR is ridiculous. Yeah we all know melee damage sucks, but rogues still are the best at it. Higher crit rate is nice but you can match their higher crits by attacking more frequently and therefore doing more damage.

Stop casters? Hey, you guys have two ways to do it.

The fact that people play dwarven rogues for the CR potential and crits is their choice of direction for the character. I don't think nixing the strength check on drag is the solution; perhaps lowering the required strength to drag stuff is.

But to say a rogue who isn't a dwarf can't perform their prime function in a group is short-sighted and far to narrowminded.
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:15 pm

I was told by a dwarf with maxed skills that he still failed sneak/hide. That may or may not be the case as I'm working on somebody else's information.

Besides, what other reason do they need to suck besides: 1) they're dwarves, and 2) they're not elves.
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Postby belleshel » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:16 pm

old depok wrote:I am not the only one who has posted about the inability to drag Nokie has said much the same.


Obviously Nokie is one fat little rogue who dies to often if everyone is having a problem dragging him;).

The comma is our friend!
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:26 pm

Sylvos wrote:Sorry depok, but given the immense array of skills a rogue brings to the table, saying their primary role now is CR is ridiculous. Yeah we all know melee damage sucks, but rogues still are the best at it. Higher crit rate is nice but you can match their higher crits by attacking more frequently and therefore doing more damage.

Stop casters? Hey, you guys have two ways to do it.

The fact that people play dwarven rogues for the CR potential and crits is their choice of direction for the character. I don't think nixing the strength check on drag is the solution; perhaps lowering the required strength to drag stuff is.

But to say a rogue who isn't a dwarf can't perform their prime function in a group is short-sighted and far to narrowminded.


Oh, I don't think that rogues are one dimensional. But the leaders out there do. All of the other rogues out there can do all of that and CR too.

I actually agree that we should not eliminate the str check entirely. I just think it needs to be lowered. Seriously, if a rogue (any rogue) can't drag someone with every slot of Max_Str in the game then it needs to be looked at.
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 5:27 pm

belleshel wrote:
old depok wrote:I am not the only one who has posted about the inability to drag Nokie has said much the same.


The comma is our friend!


I hate commas also!
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:03 pm

old depok wrote:Oh, I don't think that rogues are one dimensional. But the leaders out there do.


If thats a problem:
a) don't group with those leaders
b) learn to lead yourself

Its the same stuff goodies tell evils.
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:16 pm

Even if I lead myself, I can't CR my group. I still need to take someone who can.

Which means I need to take two rogues instead of the ideal (1). This is the ideal because I need all those other slots for my army of invokers!

The problem is not one of perception.

It is a fundimental issue with halfling rogues. They can not CR the group.

That is a big issue.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:25 pm

A) Don't spank
B) take only little people
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Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:29 pm

ROFL

Player X tells you 'hear your doin spob. got a spot for a warrior?'

You tell Player X 'I do. whats your weight and what's your load at?'

Player X tells you' um, excuse me?'
Last edited by old depok on Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:31 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:30 pm

Good you laughed, figured I'd have to explain that one like I've had to do with so many more posts recently.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:35 pm

Height/weight check? You want sex/age too?
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:38 pm

Ashiwi wrote:Height/weight check? You want sex/age too?


And astrological sign.
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 6:58 pm

Group member X group says 'what are we waiting for let's get our SPOB on'

You group say 'Shut it! Just waiting for a halfling cleric to log on'

Two days later...

You group say 'anyone have a halfling enchanter alt?'
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:22 pm

You can't drag gnomes either?
Lilithelle stops using a softly throbbing piece of flesh.
Gura group-says 'ill go solo the biznatch, just don't tell Stamm'
Kossuth responds to your petition with 'is it bad that the two words i think of when i see yer title are hottub and cthulhu? :('
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:29 pm

Too lazy to type their names to drag. Usually leave them where they die. Much Easier.

Drag hipidipididledee e

Perhaps you should tie them up first?

Drag Hipedipididledee e

Perhaps you should tie them up first?

Drag hipidipidideldee e

Perhaps you should tie them up first?

t Hipidipididelde dude can't spell your name to drag you. Ask a dwarf

you tell Hipidipididelde 'dude can't spell your name to drag you. Ask a dwarf'
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:34 pm

Ashiwi wrote: You want sex/age too?


Yes to sex please.

No to age.

Gracias!
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Postby Nokie » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:44 pm

Ashiwi wrote:You knew a halfling was a puss when you rolled him, but he has a huge amount of dex, which is the rogue's prime skill, and they get another hit over elves.


From my personal observations, the 'huge amout of dex' doesn't man jack **** when it comes to using rogues skills, when the rogue is level 50 with maxed skills. A dwarf can still sneak and hide just as well as a halfling, so what exactly does that huge amount of dex do for halflings? Other than the sometimes extra attack?

Maybe that's by design, but I don't want there to be any misconceptions about a great advantage this extra dex gives - I just don't see it.
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Postby rylan » Mon Jan 05, 2004 7:59 pm

I'll agree with reducing the amount of strength needed to drag. There should still be a check, but lower it.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:01 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:A) Don't spank
B) take only little people


Well according to Thanuk, little tanks are better tanks.
How many people have mentioned how Gnomes are the best goodie casters b/c of fast mem times and human-like hps?

So why not have a party of Halflings and Gnomes? ;)
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Postby old depok » Mon Jan 05, 2004 8:03 pm

Sesexe wrote:
mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:A) Don't spank
B) take only little people


Well according to Thanuk, little tanks are better tanks.
How many people have mentioned how Gnomes are the best goodie casters b/c of fast mem times and human-like hps?

So why not have a party of Halflings and Gnomes? ;)


Too lazy to type their names to drag. Usually leave them where they die. Much Easier.

Drag hipidipididledee e

Perhaps you should tie them up first?

Drag Hipedipididledee e

Perhaps you should tie them up first?

Drag hipidipidideldee e

Perhaps you should tie them up first?

t Hipidipididelde dude can't spell your name to drag you. Ask a dwarf

you tell Hipidipididelde 'dude can't spell your name to drag you. Ask a dwarf'
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Postby Corth » Mon Jan 05, 2004 9:11 pm

Shrug..

If it means anything at all, I'd bring up the fact that one of the main reasons I have rolled humans when I play mages is because they have CR'able strength.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby Tasan » Mon Jan 05, 2004 10:49 pm

Sesexe wrote:
mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:A) Don't spank
B) take only little people


Well according to Thanuk, little tanks are better tanks.
How many people have mentioned how Gnomes are the best goodie casters b/c of fast mem times and human-like hps?

So why not have a party of Halflings and Gnomes? ;)


Because Halflings and Gnomes can't group with ebils. Mwuahahahah.

Seriously, I can't believe this is a game issue. Corpse glamour among other things was added to aid in the ability to drag. If people are having so much trouble dragging other people, make them CR their own damned corpses! Halflings don't have str, but have uber dex... maybe the fact of the matter is dex doesn't seem to do jack when really it should. I'm not sure I've seen a reason to play a !dwarf rogue on the goodie side as yet.

Make dex matter towards skills and there ya go, balance. A rogue isn't required to CR, everyone knows that.

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Postby Sarell » Tue Jan 06, 2004 9:57 am

I think the strength penalty for dragging is a bit harsh for halflings. Certainly the stories of them not being able to drag a human druid at high max_str are exagerated. Perhaps you mean a human druid carrying 15 balista bolts and 10000 copper? Definately I am against removing str caps for dragging. People would just keep their load at heavy since everyone flys all over the place which would throw out of balance many of the weight and baggage items in the game. Perhaps just look at the plotted curve of what a halfling / other race can drag, and make it so that the weakest race, can still, at great difficulty, drag a large human (barb perhaps). Don't think you need to drag two at once? I keep thinking of the scene in LotR when Pippin trys to hoist Farimir from the pyre, was hella hard job for the lil tyke! Not being able to get a corpse as all in a zone however hurts a rogue ability to play quite a lot.

Another option would be to introduce the carry pcorpse idea that was posted earlier :9
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Postby old depok » Tue Jan 06, 2004 1:34 pm

Sarell wrote:I think the strength penalty for dragging is a bit harsh for halflings. Certainly the stories of them not being able to drag a human druid at high max_str are exagerated. Perhaps you mean a human druid carrying 15 balista bolts and 10000 copper?

I keep thinking of the scene in LotR when Pippin trys to hoist Farimir from the pyre, was hella hard job for the lil tyke! Not being able to get a corpse as all in a zone however hurts a rogue ability to play quite a lot.

Another option would be to introduce the carry pcorpse idea that was posted earlier :9


Not exagerating at all on the Druid. No idea what he was carrying but couldn't budge him. None of the warriors either.

Pippin wasn't loaded up with +max_str gear.

I think that reviewing the strength for dragging curve should be examined in terms of halflings. Not sure how this code impacts the crit code but I would not want that changed.

I only want to be able to drag Warrior corpses one at a time and maybe just one or two rooms. If I have to go back to the group or rest for vigs thats fine.

That's all.
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Postby Vahok » Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:42 pm

I'm not sure about removing the str/drag cap, but it could possibly be lowered. I know I'm difficult to drag, but I'm a big fat barb, so I do accept that fact. But if halflings can't drag a light loaded human, I could see a problem with that. But sorry you little munchkins, get your wee hands off me! I want my dragger to smell like a local of the north! Ahh, nothing like being ressed and smelling stare beer or whiskey..
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Postby icecillam » Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:46 pm

old depok wrote:Not exagerating at all on the Druid. No idea what he was carrying but couldn't budge him. None of the warriors either.


Sounds like 15 balista bolts and 10k copper in a bag to me. Btw if your not immediatly moble with all your gear/coins in a bag after ress, you are overloaded, hence some of your str is going to that.

I'm against this even tho I'd benifit the most from it due to ogres and their idea "light" is anything they can get their hands on and stuff into a bag.
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Postby Vahok » Tue Jan 06, 2004 4:50 pm

Feh! Can't edit. Where the hell is my whiteout for my brutal spelling?
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Jan 06, 2004 5:00 pm

Vahok wrote:I want my dragger to smell like a local of the north! Ahh, nothing like being ressed and smelling stale beer or whiskey..


What, I have to go rub up against a dwarf to get your consent???
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Postby Nokie » Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:15 pm

icecillam wrote:Btw if your not immediatly moble with all your gear/coins in a bag after ress, you are overloaded, hence some of your str is going to that.


Every single time I get ressed, I'm overloaded for quite some time.

Oh, by the way, my load is 'palrtry' whenever I'm at full strength.

I guess this is just another feature of being a halfling.
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:47 pm

icecillam wrote:Btw if your not immediatly moble with all your gear/coins in a bag after ress, you are overloaded, hence some of your str is going to that.


No, it means your weightless bag is past it's limit.
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Postby icecillam » Tue Jan 06, 2004 6:48 pm

Nokie wrote:Every single time I get ressed, I'm overloaded for quite some time.

Oh, by the way, my load is 'palrtry' whenever I'm at full strength.

I guess this is just another feature of being a halfling.


Nope, tho if you got cursed daggers in your inventory, those weigh you down probably to immob. Assuming you have a weightless bag, and the bag is still weightless with all your gear in it, everything in the bag, you will be mobile. Otherwise, start emptying your bag cuz its not really weightless.
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Postby Malia » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:37 pm

ok clear a few things up.
1) my sneak hide isnt !fail i dont fail often and its very rare, usualy scroll back and say wtf.. i failed but it does happen.
2) strength checks are just fine... if you rolled a halfling rogue then you get bonus attack, hamstring, and at least 1 or 2 dexnotches above me. If you wanted str instead of dex, roll a dwarf, if you want innate sneak, roll a elf, if you want to group with evils, roll a human, its what defines the races.
3) a little 65 lb halfling with maxed str shouldnt be able to drag everything a 210 maxed str dwarf can drag.

Each race has its advantages and disadvantages.. by taking away ones advantage to increas the others advantage limits the first. There is always a way to drag a corpse, loot it first, get embody, get enlarge, carry an extra tinker on you to put the extra gear in so you stay weightless, use id scroll on your bags, make sure they are all still wtless. if all else fails, smite whatevers in the room and get someone to corpse glamor it, its one of the reasons the spell was created.

Leave it like it is.. kthxbye
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Postby Maedor » Tue Jan 06, 2004 7:59 pm

I think the str/drag issue should not be changed. As Malia stated, there are pros/cons to each race...dragging abilities included.

I do..however, feel like squids should be able to shift any corpse...who cares how strong i am, if i'm willing the corpse to another place..or something.

*Braces for Klandan's 'omgevilshaveiteasywhinehinewhinenowtheygetdruidstooomgwhinewhinewhinetakeawaywormholeblahblahblah' etc :P

Squids don't really need this...but it seems to make sense..shrug

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Postby Vahok » Tue Jan 06, 2004 10:45 pm

Ashiwi wrote:
Vahok wrote:I want my dragger to smell like a local of the north! Ahh, nothing like being ressed and smelling stale beer or whiskey..


What, I have to go rub up against a dwarf to get your consent???


Do I have to nance to get yours? Just spray yourself with a touch of booze, and you will be fine..
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Postby Ragorn » Wed Jan 07, 2004 1:56 am

Leave the caps the way they are. If any character tries to drag a corpse heavier than his cap, allow him to drag it one room and reduce his moves to zero.

Allows halflings to physically do their jobs in zones, while still making it much easier for the stronger races. Done deal.
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