How to Fix Evils

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Stamm
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How to Fix Evils

Postby Stamm » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:47 am

Trolls - Drastically reduce troll regen. Acid and fire will now kill regen for a full day after their effects, but will not do any additional damage.
Lower racial agility to that of dwarves/barbarians.

Drow - Lower stats to those of grey elves.

Orc - Lower stats to those of humans.

Duergar - Lower stats to those of mountain dwarves.

Yuan-ti - I don't really know a great deal about their stats. Apparently their wisdom is amazing, maybe lower this if it is.

Illithid - Leave as is.

Dobloth Kyor - Flag the mobs in the zone as they should be flagged, and stop it being such an xp grid.

Remove any and all warnings about difficult races. Change the suggested races to be - Dwarf, halfling, drow, ogre, human.

Remove all the aggros very close to evil HTs or move them. E.g. lizardmen outside Ghore.

Change dayblindness to be like infravision without a light. I.e. red shapes etc.

This will remove all the remaining penalties to evil life, and put them almost on a level pegging with goodies.

They do get to keep their spanky innates, but they don't get to completely lose dayblindness, and they do have to deal with paladin groups.
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Postby Tasan » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:53 am

Or just leave them as is and work on something that matters.
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Postby Gura » Fri Mar 19, 2004 1:57 am

Another worthless post brought to you by Stamm. Nothing to see here.
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Nokie wiggles his bottom.
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Postby Stamm » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:01 am

Ok Gura. What would you do since it's clear that evils aren't 'working' just now.

Tasan does have a point though, there are hardly any evils and all they do is spend their time whining, perhaps time would be better spent on other issues.
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Postby Gura » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:15 am

put in all the downgrades u suggested. then make it so no more than 20 goodies can be logged in at the same time. give us a break. we get a minor boost in a couple races for some hardships we face at lower levels and u cry a fuckin river about it. shut up. u dont know what you're talking about even tho you have a level 22 troll.
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

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Postby Stamm » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:20 am

So which of you does this cunning rapier wit belong to?

Guf tells you 'you're pretty dim aren't you wank? play a troll to level 22 and you feel like you are able to comment on evils? go back to the wuss side'

Wuss side? You mean the side that doesn't suck? The side that doesn't have 50% warriors? The side that does a zone now and then?

I'm goofing around as a troll for fun, I want to see what it's really like.

I'm finding that it plays just like any warrior does, except for the regen, which means I don't need to group with clerics, shamen or battlechanters.

Generally speaking, evils have been pretty friendly. Special mention has to go out to Grxx, he's a genuinely nice guy who seems to care about new players. Guf's wise judgement is the only black mark, and that's because he feels he can't argue his point on the boards he has to resort to abusive tells.
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Postby Gura » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:40 am

Look just because you write posts on here doesnt mean you have a clue about what you are talking about. Save your stupidity for your zone groups and be glad Guf didn't embarass you on here and he simply said what is already true in private. You know nothing about evils so why do you bother speaking about them?
Dornax says 'And for the right amount of information ye might get some nookie out of Nokie..'



Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

Bobidibble GCC: 'yeah i admit gura is a better warrior then i am, no shame in it... perhaps someday i shall be as pimp'
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Postby Stamm » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:47 am

What is there to know Gura?
What mystical knowledge is there that I'm lacking?
Or is it perhaps that you don't like what I'm saying you have to pick faults with me rather than it?
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Postby Jhorr » Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:45 am

Nice flames! I got 20 plat on the ugly one.
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Postby fotex » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:37 am

acid/fire causing a blackmantle effect would actually be kind of interesting, and closer to form of how trolls usually play out in D&D :p
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Postby Kegor » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:34 am

The infravision without light for dayblind races would be a possible quick fix as a solution to the problem of ultravision. But in a perfect mud, the solution would follow the D&D concepts very closely while maintaining a healthy balance. Such as being able to see as any other character would in the sunlight after 30 gametime minutes of total dayblindness, with the penalties to stats from the D&D concepts.

As for everything else you said. Don't post on things you little or nothing about.
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Postby Pril » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:57 am

Hey i don't have any evils and don't really have any opinion about weather we should upgrade them or nuke em all to be rangers. But the fact remains that this is a forum for discussion so instead of trying to belittle Stamm for his views here's an idea. POST SOME VIEWS ON THE SUBJECT. I mean it's not hard. You don't think they should nuke drow's to be like half elves fine write why not instead of trying to flame Stamm about an opinion he had.

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Re: How to Fix Evils

Postby Shevarash » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:22 am

Orc stats are identical to human stats.

Drow/Elf stat differences are minor and balanced against each other. In other words, elves have some stats slightly higher, drow have others slightly higher. It's a wash.

Duergar do indeed have a stat bonus over mountain dwarves. I doubt its significant enough to warrant discussing in this topic.

Yuan-Ti have significant wisdom. They are also lacking several equipment slots. I think its a pretty fair tradeoff.

DK is flagged "as it should be", meaning "how I meant to flag it when I wrote it."

Frankly I would rather remove all evil races than make them clones of their goodrace counterparts. Whats the point of that? The purpose of having both evil and good races is simply to add variety into the game, and to provide a different kind of challenge.

Anyways, I just thought I'd clear up any misconceptions about the racial stats. Now, if you guys want to have a discussion about how to "fix" evils, I have a suggestion for how to get my attention with it:

1) Stop flaming each other. It's childish and I won't read threads with flames in them - outside of this obvious exception.

2) First identify the problem before suggesting a solution. Then, explain your solution. "This is broken, these easy steps will fix it" is not a convincing argument.
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Postby Kegor » Fri Mar 19, 2004 8:34 am

Shebby to the rescue. :P
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Mar 19, 2004 2:28 pm

How To Fix Evils


With a dull spoon?

Seriously though, this is really disturbing for me in a time when the pbase is dwindling. I'd love to see a larger evilrace side, but above you can see a prime example of one of the reasons I've never played an evil, and will probably never play an evil. Stamm's a nice guy and has a right to post his ideas/opinions, just like all of us who play and have our time and energy invested into this game. There's no room here for such mean-spirited childishness, such as what keeps getting exhibited here and apparently in the game, as well. Saying it in jest? That's wonderful! Being genuinely spiteful and malicious? Who wants to play in that atmosphere?
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Postby Dezzex » Fri Mar 19, 2004 4:56 pm

I think we'd love to see a larger pbase in general... and Ashiwi, Stamm has all the right ot post his ideas/opinions, but that doesn't mean they are worth anything.

Obviously he got some scathing criticism, nothing in the way I personally condone, but seriously what do you expect with a post titled 'Fix evils' followed by a bunch of proposals that want to make us all goodies?

Anyhow, Shev wrapped it up and he's right, variety is what's important, and the advantages evils have are insigificant. Unfortunately *none* of those changes are going to do anything for the pbase, for the evils, or for the rest. I wouldn't worry about the flames Stamm got, that's all part of BBS fun eh. If you think that somehow translates to why we have a lower evil population -- because we flame them when they log in for their silly ideas -- then think again.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Mar 19, 2004 5:25 pm

Ashiwi, I’m going to play a grey elf rogue for 22 levels after I see you get lucky in a zone, and then I’m going to spam the BBS with suggestions on how overpowered they are. When my comments and points can’t to be proved logically against my audience, I’ll flame anyone that doesn’t agree with me, especially when proven wrong.

Pril,
I’ll call them all whiners.
I’ll tell them they are idiots who can’t count, even tho I don’t know how to find a statistical average in a series of numbers.
I’ll twist other people’s words around and disregard anything of validity they say.
I’ll let people know that I am the soul authority on a topic I’ve only played for 1/20th - 1/50th the time they have.
I’ll post parts of conversations on the BBS to flame anyone who doesn’t agree with me either, even though this is a big BBS no-no that if someone else did it, my friends would be all over them, but for me, they’ll disregard it.
I’ll make sure to create a new thread, maybe even in a different forum, which once again mentions the same topics over and over and over and over again.
I’ll make sure to take over other pleasant discussions and turn them into flame fests to once again utter my rhetorical jargon.

Am I still being ‘nice’?

Or should I have played a grey elf rogue to 50th, played for 6 months and zoned as much as I could during that time, and then took up some friendly banter with other grey elf rogues online about their opinions about the race/class. Then afterwards, approach the BBS with my findings?

*sigh*

And for the record.
I back up a lot of what Gura says, not because we’re good friends, fellow evils, or that I think he’s a nice guy, but because his reasons are valid. Ask Gura himself the last time I zoned with him. We don’t exactly dance the happy dance with eachother.
Do you want to know Jaznolg’s and my history as well? It isn’t a pleasant one. Trust me.

I’m backing the arguments, not the people.

*shrug*

Why aren't more people like Arilin, who've played and I mean really played both sides, not to mention a junk load of classes, pointing out imbalances? Stamm, in all seriousness, if you played that evil char of yours up to 50 and really played him as your primary for 6+ months, you'd have a lot more people being receptive to what you're saying, not to mention possibly a different point of view.
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Postby Ambar » Fri Mar 19, 2004 6:33 pm

Sesexe wrote:Why aren't more people like Arilin



no thanks!!!!!!!!!!!
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:46 pm

Sesexe wrote:Why aren't more people like Arilin, who've played and I mean really played both sides, not to mention a junk load of classes, pointing out imbalances? Stamm, in all seriousness, if you played that evil char of yours up to 50 and really played him as your primary for 6+ months, you'd have a lot more people being receptive to what you're saying, not to mention possibly a different point of view.


Appreciate it and all, but you're giving me way to much credit imho. I played a troll warrior to like level 46(He's still at 46 btw), and played him solid for about a month or month and a half at most. Did some zones with Jegzed and crew when he was still doing crap, blah blah, nothing special.

So anyway, here:

1. Yeah. I have alot of classes, but alot of them are still pre-41, so really I don't know alot of the ins and outs.

2. I don't really complain about crap that much. I just wait for it to be handled and see if I like the change or not. My opinion isn't going to change much what plans already in place unless asked directly probably.

3. Trolls rock, Ogres rock. If I ever was going to play a warrior type, it'd be one of those two again. I give it up to people who play warriors as a prime, I find them so damn boring. And to be quite honest, regardless of what anyone is saying about Gura. Look at the facts of it.

He's played that Troll since wipe? He was CC(Damn good guild), and is now in what i'd assume are the people left over from the guild, they know their crap. He's maxed his skills some time ago, and has some of the best equipment out there cause he works at it. Give any halfway intelligent player that much time with a warrior class, and the equipment to back it up and they're going to be pretty badass. You gotta really stop using him as the example for all trolls. Anyway, I rant. Jennifer, hate you.
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Postby Dizzin » Fri Mar 19, 2004 7:59 pm

Heh, I'm not one to normally agree with Arilin, but...

Damn fine post.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 19, 2004 10:15 pm

I think its a problem of critical mass.

Would you rather log on and try to find something to do with the 10 evils or logon and get 2 invites to do something with the 40 goodies.

The pbase is lopsided probably because of the emphasis on large groups which was born many years ago from the popularity of tales concerning elves, paladins/knights, and rangers which predisposed people to select the good races. We do not grow up idolizing trolls, ogres, orcs and until Drizzt, drow.

In the question of balance, I think evils are viable choices if not popular at the moment. They are compensated partially for their handicap in the extremes, whcih players are very good at using their strengths without exposing their handicaps. Also, they have been partially compensated in that !good and !neutral flag was significantly more prolific than the !evil flag.

The biggest hinderance to evil races is their inability to communicate and mobilize due to day / night issues. I believe a drow can not even see that a troll is playing if he is outside in daylight how are you suppposed to organize groups if you dont even know who is on?

Who and tell should not be affected by status such as invis, dark, light. You shouldn't be getting the consents of "a red shape" Group should show names not someones and red shapes.

(On a side note, to grow the mud I would create imbalances by making Paladins, Rangers, and elves stronger and continue to give evil only items a nod in the high end game. Power gamers will gravitate to evil alignments and away from good only races / classes such as elves and paladins)
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Mar 20, 2004 1:21 am

Dezzex wrote:Anyhow, Shev wrapped it up and he's right, variety is what's important, and the advantages evils have are insigificant.


That statement right there prettymuch nullifies your entire post. Shev did not say anything like "the advantages are insignificant". What shev did was clear up the disillusion about stats. Yes there are still some stat
differences. I would consider some of them to be quite significant. The
troll issue that stamm seems to be most interested in was not touched
on at all. Nor were ogres. I think the bottom line is there will need to be
some changes in the future to some of the races to fix what are currently
advantages of evil over good, without equally difficult drawbacks. Do i
think evils and goods should have races/classes that are exactly alike
so that it's all the same? heck no, thats boring. but should one be
more powerful than the other? no. it should balance. i think stamms idea
to make the stats the same is pretty boring. but he is entitled to his
opinion. Orcs do have a pretty significant advantage of one of their
innates in particular over humans, but race selection, etc are also
very significantly lower. Bottom line once again is just as others have
posted. Lets worry about the balance issues when the game gets
both A) melee fixes, and B) a playerbase large enough to make the
time spent on these changes worthwhile.

And for the record, i really did like the idea of how acid or fire damage
would temporarily disable troll regen. VERY cool idea, but having it last
an entire day is kinda harsh. was thinking 5-10 mins RL time or so,
enough that its a severe inconvenience. Changing the agility just a
smidge so it is on par with barbies more would be a nice change too.

Heck, give the agility you take away from trolls to ogres, that way it
all stays in the evil family. *nod me*

And also, while we're making the comparisons, dires do have it all over
rangers. hands down. thank you please drive through. The only thing they
don't have that rangers do, are the mediocre blur quest swords that
apparently aren't much better than an item you can now get from a
different zone, that has far fewer restrictions.
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Postby Dezzex » Sat Mar 20, 2004 5:29 am

Uhh, not sure what the point in *your* post was, but read Shev's post again.

By clarifying the stat issue, he has indeed implied that any differences are either negligible or balanced against eachother in some fashion. Let us read shall we:

"Drow/Elf stat differences are minor and balanced against each other."

"Duergar do indeed have a stat bonus over mountain dwarves. I doubt its significant enough to warrant discussing in this topic."

"Yuan-Ti have significant wisdom. They are also lacking several equipment slots. I think its a pretty fair tradeoff."

So in summary, "Balanced", "not significant enough", "fair tradeoff". Does that sound like Shev is saying we should be arguing race balance issues? Because yes, obviously they are so important! Either you have a serious penchant for exaggeration or have no idea what you're talking about. If you consider them quite significant, think again.

And that is all! I hate this thread, but it sure is fun!
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Postby Dalar » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:58 am

why can't u guys just make it so ultras can't see in adjacent rooms just like fog.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:15 pm

Ok Dezzex, how about YOU read shev's post again. Nowhere in that post
does it mention that ALL of the races are balanced. it shows a COUPLE
of them and their tradeoffs. The topic of my post involved specifically
trolls, and to some extent ogres, neither of which were mentioned in
the above post. Nowhere in the post does Shev mention that all of the
races are balanced. He even left options 1) and 2) at the bottom to
encourage a good way to find a solution to what the issue at hand may
be. So yes, i've re-read shev's post, and suggest you do the same
before you go criticizing my post.
Last edited by Delmair Aamoren on Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dizzin » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:20 pm

Umm, it was Dezzex who responded to you.

I think it's clear who's reading skills are in need of help.

That is all.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat Mar 20, 2004 7:28 pm

Dizzin Dezzex blah, all you evils look alike.
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Postby Stamm » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:35 pm

Well, some more food for thought.

As it stands evils don't seem to be working as a side... Here are all the possible reasons I can think of....

1) It just takes time, it will settle out eventually.
2) The way the playerbase is, nobody will play evils until there are a decent amount of evils.... vicious circle.
3) The hindrances that evils have (fire damage, dayblind, eq slots, etc) are just too significant, regardless of the benefits.
4) The benefits are not tangible enough. Perhaps they're nice for leveling, but not signifcant in a full high level group.

Now, about point 3. There seem to be a lot of people wanting the hindrances removed. An easy answer would be the one I suggested. Remove those hindrances, and then, because it's not possible to give benefits without drawbacks, remove the benefits. Essentially making evils barely different to goodies only. The other answer would be to tell the evils whining about it to play goodies, but that's a non-starter, because then there would be even less evils.... People seem to be against the first option, even Shevarash himself is against having that. My guildies suggest that evils should be harder to play, more of a challenge, potentially more rewarding. I said "You ASSOC: '*nod* The way I see it, if evils were truely attractive, then we'd be leveling evil alts, not for kicks, but as the next logical step'" So the question is, are evils really attractive? Assuming that 1 and 2 are not true, then evils cannot be attractive.

So it's then a question of either removing some of the downsides, or giving evils some more advantages, or adjusting where those advantages are.

Let's go back to trolls for example. I don't think it's a healthy thing for evils that trolls can level solo. It's probably easier for a troll to level solo than to have to deal with getting groups together. That means (since nearly all evil tanks are trolls) that a cleric can't level up easily in the traditional manner, they have to solo xp, which can't be pleasant or fast, and certainly not what I think Toril is about. If trolls had their advantages in other areas, then perhaps they'd have to level up with other characters, which, I think, would help evils.

Drow, well, they start in the easiest hometown around, their stats are a minor (and probably insignificant) improvement on grey elves. Grey elves start on Evermeet which although some people (myself included) have enjoyed being restricted to EM, it makes it tougher to level up a grey elf than it does a drow. The innates a drow has... UD sneak (lesser than outdoor sneak I think). Levitate, faerie fire. Those aren't going to make much of an impact on anything, levitate scrolls and items are not hard to come by, and all mage types have the spell. So, do drow have an advantage over greys? I don't think so.

Yuan-ti, well, I must say I don't know a great deal about them, other than what Sservis has told me. I do know their hometown is no milk run, and that they lose several slots. Are they a really overpowering race? I think not, sure the tail slot can carry hps that are more than what they lose, but they don't gain any prots, or saves etc or max stats when doing that. Perhaps they should be able to wear a ring on the tip of their tail. Finger slots are twice as nice as other slots, that would give the yuans something. As for their racial stats... they are different to other races, that's got to be a good thing for the mud.

I could go on I guess, but I've already said plenty, and I hope I've made the general theme of the races clear.

Seems to me that the only evil race that is really spanky is trolls, the rest are not a significant improvement over goodies.

I am starting to think that 4 is true.

Another point, about DK. I think I'm right in saying that when an evil joins the mud he goes to DK, and levels there up to level 40. I'm sure that's not always the case, but it seems to be what happens. That's not going to teach players much. There's other issues, like equipment, and so on, but they are addressed in other threads, because they are mud-wide issues, not ones just restricted to evils. I just think that if Waterdeep was as good for xp as Dobloth Khor then we'd see even more bored level 40 players who have no idea what is outside of the gates.
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Postby fotex » Sat Mar 20, 2004 8:43 pm

unless you have played evils for 6 months you cannot make any comments. that is all
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Postby Ambar » Sun Mar 21, 2004 1:32 am

Edit: yup, I stand corrected he did say ud sneak was lesser than outdoor sneak... i just hate the fact he tries to argue everything!

and sure trolls CAN solo xp .. but typically they dont ... it's just not fun .. and hell exp is where most of your skills are gained ... here we go again with a lvl 50 warrior who cant rescue *whee*

i have leveled both evils and goodies to lvl 50 .. and have zoned extensively with both sides ... stamm who are your evils and what experience have you had with them, ie: what EVIL zoning have you done and with what leaders? ... you love to try to blow smoke up people's asses but rarely have the knowledge to back up your claims ... sure bring up your pdays or whatever .. but how many of those are idle and how many actively mudding?

Edit: whether it was sarcasm or not ... people who havent played extensively have no argument. And I still say:

unless u have played evil for a while (ok i will down it to 3 months..) then you have no basis to formulate any ideas.
Last edited by Ambar on Sun Mar 21, 2004 5:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby rylan » Sun Mar 21, 2004 2:14 am

I think Stamm said that UD sneak was lesser than (I take that as worse than) outdoor sneak. I think Fotex was being sarcastic about the 6 month thing too :P
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Postby Ihazim » Sun Mar 21, 2004 3:48 am

I didnt realize that the evil race was broken to begin with :p. I think the real problem is a lack of playerbase.
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Postby Sarell » Sun Mar 21, 2004 11:41 am

agree with ihazim.. i think a permanent mud address to make it worth voting on topmudsites and other advertising would pwn.. lots of smiting to go around for another 100 players :9
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Postby Selias » Wed Apr 07, 2004 6:12 pm

Hmm... I haven't played evils much, but I have tried a bunch of race/class combos.

If evils are concerned about pbase, then you should take into account the low end of the game rather than the high end, because noobs see the low levels first, and often times don't get passed them. I'll tell u that being a drow is fun! Good stats, nice HT, easy life, but once you get outside of DK, BAM! ARGH! It's TOO bright! or some such nonsense.

Ok, if daytime Ultravision functioned like nighttime Infravision, then I probably would be playing a drow caster as primary right now, but as it is I can't even go outside my HT to explore b/c I can't see half the damn time.

I know there are ways around that, but those ways are not a viable choice for a level 10 char. Just from personal experience, I feel that changing dayblindness would help to improve evils' chance to have their pbase grow.

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