Spell damage idea?

[chandigar]

Just an idea that came to me last night, seems like it could work but throwing it out here for you guys to shoot holes through it.

The consensus seems to be that area damage is whats breaking the game, and the current solution appears to be the nerfing of spell damage. This is only a partial solution however, because you've got the fine line between having vokers as worthwhile classes or not while at the same time trying to deal with groups bringing more and more of them.

Taking the other mage core classes as an example, you can't triple stone someone, or you can't triple heal someone (if a tank needs 3 fheals at once, the group is spanked anyway and max hp is a cap on the amt). What if.. all voker area spells had feedback with all others? In this scenario, a group would bring probably one voker for areas max, with a 2nd voker offering less to the group like many of the other core classes. I'd also be ok, in this situation, with vokers having higher area damage than they do now, per spell.

To compliment this of course, I'd probably suggest yanking the area spells from most other classes, making vokers & lichs & druids/psi the primary area damage specialists.

This feedback restriction could apply to the other classes mentioned too, encouraging groups to bring one of each of the 'area' specs instead of just 3 vokers.

Comments? Suggestions? Am I just stupid?

[Sesexe]

Do you mean just Invokers have feedback with other Invoker spells? For areas AND singles? Like 7th circle and above feedback with any other 7th or 8th or 9th or 10th circle offensive spell cast by another invoker?

Or just areas?

PS. Please remember necromancers and lichs, both bring a lot more to the table then just damage for groups. If you make a lich/necro = invoker in the damage department, what is the point of bringing the invoker at all?

[chandigar]

Oh, no, just for areas. I don't think single target spells really are a problem at all.

Also, I lump vokers and lich's together but not for damage... its still a sliding scale... voker > lich but the lich is still considered a voker TYPE of class so they should be considered the same way.

Definitely a voker should have the most damaging area spell hands down, I just think the problem lies more with multiple vokers rather than pure spell damage output per spell (as some recent nerfs seem to indicate).

[Sesexe]

Well what I was hinting at was, if you make it so necro/and lich have area feedback, this means their pets have area feed back.

If their pets have area feed back and can only cast single targets, you'll really be reducing the amount of damage a necro/lich can do - which is already substantially less then a voker.

Since we don't hear about how groups are bringing 4 lichs, each with 3 pets, to zones and stomping zones.. I don't think we need to give area feedback to necro or lich.

They just don't dump it out as much as voker.

[Treladian]

Mobs seem to be excluded from spell feedback so I doubt any changes to feedback in general would affect necro pets. I certainly never recall seeing Revenki's wraiths all nuke themselves when they managed to all get rain of blood off at once (and was probably one of the reasons they slashed necro pet spell damage down to 1/3 or so near the beginning of the wipe, so that this wouldn't be hugely unbalancing).

[chandigar]

I think pets should be included as part of the overall damage output of a necro/lich, therefore I think PC necro/lichs should feedback each other but pets are immune.

Besides, pets are like 1/3 or 1/4 damage anyway.

[Sesexe]

I think pets should be included as part of the overall damage output of a necro/lich, therefore I think PC necro/lichs should feedback each other but pets are immune.

Besides, pets are like 1/3 or 1/4 damage anyway.

Um.. what? I think you just contradicted yourself. Err.

I'll go with the last thing you said then. Um.. that's the way it is now?

Rot has feedback. Abi is single target. Rain of blood is 10th circlet, which means you can have a max of 2 ghosts + necro/lich casting it. It doesn't feedback that I know of, unless this changed when its' circle got changed. As a lich, I don't cast rain, I cast rot. I'll test it tonight when I get home, but I doubt I'll feedback with my pets.

So are you saying you want 46+ necros to feedback with eachother like lich's do with rot? (if this isn't already the case that is, which I hope it's not, because it gives another reason to be a necro instead of a lich.)

So like I said. If you nerf the invoker down to equaling a lich in damage, there is utterly no point to bringing an invoker over a lich. Lich has utility and debuffs. (You should have seen us own imix last night because of contagion)

[Gura]

spell damage idea! remove invokers and enchanters and bring back sorcerers and monks.

[Dalar]

Just remove invokers.

[Sesexe]

Ok. Confirmed.

Lich casting rain of blood and having 2 ghosts casting it at same time, no feedback at all with pets

Lich casting rain of blood at same time as necro in room, results in no feedback.

[chandigar]

Um.. what? I think you just contradicted yourself. Err.

I'll go with the last thing you said then. Um.. that's the way it is now?

Um no.

Let me reiterate clearly.

1. Invokers do the most damage. They should still do the most damage. In fact, they should do more damage than they do now. (caveat: see 4)

2. Lichs/necros are an invoker TYPE of class in that they can output a lot of damage and that is their major group contribution. Compared to other casters they do a lot of damage. Compared to invokers they do and should do less.

3. Necro pets should not feedback with the necro because pets are a factor of their the class's nuking power, like inferno is a factor of the invokers nuking power.

4. Invokers should feedback all area spells with each other. This limits it to one invoker casting areas at once rather than swarm, inferno and cloud at once. The other group invokers can go with using single targets. This will increase the power/contribution of the individual invoker while lowering the imbalance issues with multiple invokers.

5. Necros & Lichs should feedback areas with each other as well, for the same reasons as above. This will encourage bringing a larger variety of classes IE one invoker, one necro, one druid etc instead of just loading up on all invokers.

[Sesexe]

1. Invokers do the most damage. They should still do the most damage. In fact, they should do more damage than they do now.

Taking your direction here in this thread in mind, then only area damage. Not single target. In fact, their single target spells would need to be decreased in damage. (I'll explain why lower down. Read on.)

2. Lichs/necros are an invoker TYPE of class in that they can output a lot of damage and that is their major group contribution. Compared to other casters they do a lot of damage. Compared to invokers they do and should do less.

I play and zone as a lich. My main contribution to groups is not damage. I can do damage, and I can help out there, but I am almost never brought along just for damage purposes. I'm there for hastes/globes/pact during spell ups. Then during battles I blackmantle (so runs are possible)/contagion (so fight is easier) and finally do what damage I can muster. If people wanted me for damage, they ask me to bring my invoker (either for single targets or for area blasting).

3. Necro pets should not feedback with the necro because pets are a factor of their the class's nuking power, like inferno is a factor of the invokers nuking power.

Agreed. The damage they output is substandard.

4. Invokers should feedback all area spells with each other. This limits it to one invoker casting areas at once rather than swarm, inferno and cloud at once. The other group invokers can go with using single targets. This will increase the power/contribution of the individual invoker while lowering the imbalance issues with multiple invokers.

This will reduce only the amount of damage recieved from area damage. This does nothing to reduce the amount of damage an invoker can do as of now with their current spells, and instead causes a group to require MORE invokers. Invokers do the most damage at area or single. If they can only do singles, and the singles don't have feedback, then groups will bring even more of them to make up the loss in area nukage. So instead of having 3 invokers in a group, we'd be looking at 3-6.

5. Necros & Lichs should feedback areas with each other as well, for the same reasons as above. This will encourage bringing a larger variety of classes IE one invoker, one necro, one druid etc instead of just loading up on all invokers.

If you want necro/lich to feedback with eachother..I guess so. They not putting out so much anyways and that's not their main purpose, but doing this won't make much of a different to a necro/lich anyways. Most groups only have one as is. So that's fine.

All your suggestions tho have made it so groups would want to bring even more invokers now, since they can only do single targets (which are still the most powerful offensives in the game.)

So what needs to be done?

This is how you reduce area damage, help balance melee vs spell damage, and keep the invoker relatively unchanged:
1) Give feedback to ALL invoker offensive spells (both single and area) from the circle they get cloud and up. (This makes it so you only bring one invoker per group, therefor creating a dependency on melee damage and alternate mage damage. Or groups will be forced to do 'invoker runs'. Either way, the amount of invoker damage per group is reduced dramatically without touching the class.)

[chandigar]

You make some good points, but I dunno if I agree with what you said about this causing people to bring more vokers. As it stands now, its essentially the same thing right? Max about 3 vokers areaing, then the rest single targets. By your arguments, we should still have incentive to bring as many invokers as possible to a group.

In the end, though, if you had a choice to bring a necro that can area or a voker that can only cast single targets, which would you bring? Depends on the zone I guess (large gatehouses, necro, big solo mobs voker probably), but at least the option is there to tweak the group composition. I really don't see groups bringing 1 areaing voker and 5 single target vokers on a run. Might be interesting to get some leaders to chime in about this situation and get some opinions, I could be completely off-base.

And as for necro's lichs doing damage, I dunno. I don't find blackmantle useful at all (except in very very very rare occasions or where you have a very underpowered group fighting clerics and you need to make more than 2 runs to kill a single mob) and I don't find contagion worth casting except while doing exp. By the time you land contagion on a mob, its nearly dead. I'd like to chat with ya sometime about this tho, I could be missing some of the benefits.

I don't really like the idea of restricting vokers with feedback of all spells just because thats more restrictive than any other class. People should be able to bring an extra voker if one wants to go, I just don't think the benefits of that extra voker should be as overwhelming as it is now.

[Pril]

that makes no sense? make single target spells feed back? Why not make melee feed back then? if 2 people are using slashers or something. You need to look at the class as a whole. I totally agree with chandigar that voker area spells are over powered, but all vokers have going for them is spells, if you make it so that target spells feed back as well then vokers become useless.
By feedback do you mean all target spells feed back or just same spells? or same circle spells?

Pril

[Sesexe]

[a little humor]
It makes perfect sense, Pril! You brought up some craptastic ideas! Yes! Let's make it even more intense. Let's make all invoker spells feedback with all other invoker spells. Let's not stop there either, let's make it so all casters feedback with all other casters of the same class. Who the hell plays a caster here anyways? Like noone. They suck anyways. Everyone should be rangers and paladins. OMG! What am I thinking! Melee needs feedback too! Those poor rangers *sniff* Make it so all their skills feedback with eachother of the same class too! So now you need sub-warrior classes for backup rescues and bashes and damage and stuff.

What the hell. Let's count the number of total classes in the game and reset the group size cap to that number! Woot! So now to have a full group, you'd have to have one of each class! No duplicates. Now every full zone group will require every classes of the game! Any duplicates and you get feedback! There would be a need for every class then!

As much crack as I'm on, there is something sickly balancing about only one class per group.
[/!drug moment]

Maybe we could..

-Give Rogue's 'Evasion' to all classes, and at lower level, and increase the effects of higher skill ability?

and/or

-Give all warrior/sub-warriors a skill that can drastically reduce area damage if using a shield?

[Sesexe]

Pondering...

How many invokers did groups bring before feedback?

How many invokers did groups bring when feedback came in?

How many invokers did groups bring when how many mobs could be hit by areas was reduced?

How many invokers will groups bring if/when only one voker can area and the rest have to single target?

[Demuladon]

Sese,

Thats's a good point.

Even if vokers were restricted to doing massive damage to a single target.. would they be left out of groups? I'm guessing no.

If vokers were restricted to doing massive damage to a single target, what difference would they have to monks?

[chandigar]

Sese,
If vokers were restricted to doing massive damage to a single target, what difference would they have to monks?

Theme, which is why monks were removed in the first place.

Oh, and the difference between melee and spells it that melee don't have to remem to get their attacks back, so theres no inherent limit like there is with spells.

(Hey, what if melee slowly drained mv points?)

[Sesexe]

(Hey, what if melee slowly drained mv points?)

Moves. Mana. What's the difference?

Oh wait.. if it drained moves then you couldn't... MOVE! I sure bet some of the warriors would really love that! Mmm Mmm!

[Sesexe]

Theme, which is why monks were removed in the first place.

I was thinking a lot about this statement and started comparing monks and invokers while we were doing Clouds the other night.

In this clouds group, we had 5 invokers.

During Big fights:
Ssreev was Inferno'n
Sesexe was Swarming
Khoric was Clouding
One of the other two was thunder blasting
and the last voker was single targeting. (sorry can't remember their names atm)

Now, Ssreev and Sesexe (me) were the only two invokers who had both swarm and inferno. In all the fights where Ssreev started with fernos, I only once or twice casted 1 inferno after he was done casting his. The mobs all died around this point.

During walk-ins and smaller fights:
All 5 invokers were force missiling. Killiing mobs in record time.


Now Chandigar, you mentioned to me how there was a difference between monks and invokers, because invokers had to remem their spells. I think you're right on that observation, but I don't think that makes a difference. Now you might feel that slowing down the damage is making the zoning more difficult, I feel otherwise. When most good zone leaders stop and do full spell ups before each major fight, this totally negates your point. Invokers are done their rememing LONG before everyone else. So effectively there isn't a difference between invokers or monks. Monks wanted hastes before right? so they had to wait during a spell up for it, which is probably about the same amount of time it takes an invoker to remem their spells.

So damage went from Melee to Caster, and now invokers are far superior then monks ever were with their taxi abilities, side-effects of spells, plus massive area damage.

Maybe we should put monks back into the game? Or should we just crank up the melee damage? Or should we just half all offensive damage right accross the board?

[Pril]

if monks were in game they wouldn't NEED to wait for spell ups they could packrat verm sleeves and self haste themselves 24/7 i know some rogues do that. So vokers do need mem time, while it's true that most memming is done during spell ups, what baour the big fights where you need vokers to mem out?

Pril

[Sesexe]

True Pril. They probably would.

As an invoker, pretty much the only time I mem out is when doing runs, just because I like to keep everything mem'd up. There have been EXTREMELY few fights where I had to run out, remem, and come back in. Just doesn't happen normally. In fact I think in that case i was the ONLY invoker in the group.

Most groups have 3 invokers, for the most part, doing areas.

Everything is basically dead when I run out of the spell i'm casting. So 4 (inferno), or 5 (swarms) spells later and the fight is over.

Unless I'm the only invoker in the group (or fighting high MR mobs), I never run out of ammo. Seems I don't even get 1/4th empty, ever.