Change to help non damage doers gain experience

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Depok
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Change to help non damage doers gain experience

Postby Depok » Wed May 05, 2004 4:48 pm

I had this in another thread but it is getting lost there.

I propose that we reduce the mem times for chanters and elementalists from level 1-30 dramatically.

Also, Increase the spell slots they recieve when leveling in circles 1-5 so that they get maxed spell slots much earlier than they do now. I haven't thought through this process but would imagine that 1st circle should be completely fill in by midway through 3rd circle, 2nd circle mid way through 4th, etc.

Don't believe this would be unbalancing as it is just the lower levels.

Thoughts?
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Postby fotex » Wed May 05, 2004 7:39 pm

agree
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Postby Sarell » Thu May 06, 2004 11:09 am

i think making exp more complicated is the opposite of what needs to happen. I think it would work better to just remove damage / heal / stone / whatever exp and possibly reduce exp tables a bit... or ever better...

REDUCE TABLE UPGRADE TROPHY :9
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Postby Gura » Thu May 06, 2004 3:30 pm

i like the idea of there being only xperience received from the mob death if either mob xp was upgraded across the board or our tables were reduced. Also, and this was suggested before by dalar i believe, adding a bonus to doing xp with aggro mobs would be a nice treat also. Could also help newer players learn some skills that aren't so repetitive before they get thrown into a mori group. I suppose this would also upgrade most zone xp also but i can't see that as an unbalancing problem.
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Postby fotex » Thu May 06, 2004 7:56 pm

Gura wrote:i like the idea of there being only xperience received from the mob death ...


I dont think this has a chance to be put in unless pleveling newbies is addressed. After all, that's why there's only so much xp to be had from mob death, right?

Then again, if they had the balls to allow pets to not take xp (if but for a while), then maybe anything's possible.

Gura wrote:Also, and this was suggested before by dalar i believe, adding a bonus to doing xp with aggro mobs would be a nice treat also.

agree
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Postby Ashod » Thu May 06, 2004 11:22 pm

I agree... exp for stones,heal,damage is completely wrong imo.
I never once got more exp when playing paper D&D because I was a harder hitting warrior or a better spellcaster. It always revolved around death or good role play (doesn't apply here).

I say remove them all.. upgraded experience for killing mobs and make all experience tables the same via class.. mages , tanks, melee, priests.

I mean if your gonna give an invoker experience for doing dmg to a mob.. you need to be fair and give warriors exp for the rescues and bashes.. :P
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Postby Ashod » Thu May 06, 2004 11:23 pm

This also might promote more grouping for experience.. you can kill far more mobs per hour in a group than you can alone.

And as far as power leveling.. um i don't know a multi-player game that doesn't have it. Reguardless it will happen no matter what..
maybe make experience tables at lower lvl have caps that can be accieved per lvl..

say a lvl 10 mage is with a lvl 40 what ever.. they are killing lvl 20 and 30 mobs.

the lvl 20 mob give the lvl 10 player 4 notches per kill and
the lvl 30 gives 6 notches per kill.. but because of the cap between each
lvl of 10 lvls or so.. he can only get a totally of 2 notches per every kill untill he passes the cap restrictions of that lvl.
Depok
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Postby Depok » Fri May 07, 2004 12:28 pm

At the end of the day who cares about the pleveling? It is typically done (I have heard *whistle*) for players who already have at least one high level character. They typically already know the class and it isn't done for that many levels anyway (15-20 I have heard *whistle*).

I doubt that it would change from the way it is now.

Here is a radical idea, how about making exp tables different based upon how much damage the class does typically? It would look something like this...

From Hardest to easiest exp tables...

Invoker
Lich
Rogue
Necro
Druid
Anti
Paladin
Shaman
Elementalist
Bard
Cleric
Illusionist
Warrior
Enchanter

I know I am leaving some classes out and I didn't take long to think about what class should be where, but you get the general idea.

You could also scale the exp tables by level as well. A low level invoker should not have a harder exp table than a warrior because the warrior is going to level faster at that stage.

Maybe keep the exp tables the same for all until level 10 or so and then adjust (afterall we are all rogues until that level anyway).

This would keep the damage exp in there but would even out the leveling some. This way the enchanters in the level 20 group dont get to 22 when the rogue is getting to 30 killing the same mobs.
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Postby Talomis » Fri May 07, 2004 11:53 pm

ofcourse...leave the ranger out :P
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sat May 08, 2004 1:01 am

no psi?
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Postby Sservis » Sat May 08, 2004 10:10 am

I'm personally a fan of 0% skill xp and 100% death xp. When you're in a typical leveling group [everyone about the same level], no one misses the death xp, and so the xp will be spread evenly about.

However there are always issues with abnormal xp groups. I can think of at least 3 types of plvl. My opinion varies on how much of an issue they are

1) damage based plvl
2) eq based plvl
3) skill based plvl

1) damage based plvl
The damage based plvl is otherwise known as "friendly kill stealing". This is the most abused form of plvl, and also one that most people think is "unfair" to some degree. I'd support any fixes that forced all those that contributed damage to be in the same group same room when the mob died so that the split included all. [Any remaining issues with large level variances should/could then be handled in the xp split code].

The use of damage xp vs kill xp is an attempt to reduce the impact of this type. The other types of special xp are an attempt to make the presence of damage xp equitable to other classes that don't do damage. The consensus is that the other types of special aren't appropriately balanced.

I'd argue that they'll never be appropriately balanced as it would require balancing vs all the diverse possibilities that can be used as an xp group. If Shev and the coders had lots of time I'd suggest my pet fix of "kill xp accrues to the group AND room of the damager in proportion to the damage done and is awarded on mob death". This would make the damage based plvl impossible [all issues with large variances in levels while grouped would still remain, but that's hardly a plvl, that's an abnormal xp group [restrictions on grouping anyone?]. It's only a plvl when the xp split function is modified via tactics ie friendly kill stealing]

2) eq based plvl
The eq based plvl consists of a low level character using equipment that could not be gained on his, her, or its own. Unless this mud in some way restricts equipment based on level [lvl restrictions on eq, rent with different rates based on lvl of player vs lvl of eq, etc], this is basically impossible to mediate in any way.

3) skill based plvl
The skill based plvl occurs when the skills of one class are used to plvl others. Commonly known as "heal on a stick" [cleric], "haste/stone bish" [enc], etc. This type of plvl is the hardest to stop. Unless spells are restricted so that they can only be cast on players of similar levels OR kill xp is completely replaced with special xp [the skill assist thus leeches an appropriate amount of xp]. I don't see either being done, and thus this type of plvl really won't go away.


When comparing the types of plvl, only the "damage based plvl" has potential fixes [do away with damage xp (requires lots of coding to make things fair with my fix, maybe there's some easier balancing that I'm missing) or balance all types of special xp (hard to do properly, see current state of affairs, which is perceived as unbalanced)]. The "damage based plvl" is actually no different from a "skill based plvl" except for the class of the person doing the plvl.

Whatever happens, I'm sure we'll trade one set of issues for another. I'm not sure if they'll be a smaller set of issues or not. Personally, I'd love to see the "damage based plvl" be made not possible, and even have a pet fix for it.

My "fixes" if there were infinite coding resources,
i) Count the damage per mob and award xp to the group(s) in room in proportion to the damage done by members in room.

ii) Handle any issues with large level variances in groups in the inside group xp split code [pet fix there: everyone earns the same % of a level, ie if the lvl 50 earns 0.123% so the lvl 1 earns 0.123% also [and if the lvl 50 ungroups then he takes the xp share based on his damage with him to the other group]]

I can also see ways to fix the eq based plvl and the skill based plvl, however I really don't want to see them fixed as they change the game [eq restrictions/rent/lvl restrictions on spells/grouping] in ways that would alienate a large chunk of the pbase.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Jun 03, 2004 4:58 pm

id say forget all the sources of exp and ask this.

1. do the classes level as fast as the forgers want in relation to each other?

2. is the current distribution of kill exp based on level, class, and group size what the forgers want.

I'm gonna assume #1 is exactly how they want it since they have made periodic changes like downgrading invoker damage exp and making 1-45 easier, adding stone and heal exp.

#2 i think needs looking at because i dont think its arguable that the gain exp rate for certian classes cleric / enchanter is much worse in a mid sized group (4-6 peopl) than it is in a very small or solo group 1-2. Why should an enchanter do 4% an hour in a 6 man group and 10% an hour in a 2 man group on a mud that focuses on group activities.
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Postby Gyrx » Fri Jun 04, 2004 4:39 pm

I've always been screaming for zone exp upgrades. Yes I know the supposed reward is the equipment, but I don't think that's all it should be. Only reason I play and lead anymore is because of the fun of playing. Ask my groups how much loot I?ve bid on or claimed from a zone in the past year and a half, you couldn't even count it on one hand.

One of my biggest gripes lately is the level 50 noobs. Any monkey can sit and whack an exp mob all day long, but it actually takes skill to do the zones. I'd love it if my characters could never have to worry about exp ever again because I zone so much.

Yes I know there needs to be a penalty for death, but with the game as it is with crap like 7 buffets in a row and godlike faeries that prism out their eyes every 2 rounds even the most skilled players can't do jack sometimes. Then sometimes it happens a couple times a zone and whamo, you've lost too much exp.

Is it really such a bad thing if many of the upper-end zones were upped in exp? I'm not saying up the exp so everyone has 3k% exp buffers like rogues so people will be foolishly throwing themselves over and over at mobs, I?m just asking for a little love so that once I hit 41 or something I can simply never have to "exp" again. I just wanna zone man...
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Postby yud » Sat Jun 05, 2004 5:37 am

Although I don't get to play as much as I would like, I have to agree with Gyrx. There is nothing worse than logging on, actually getting to do a real zone, and then having the proverbial crap hit the fan.

I don't get to play often enough that I can sit all day and do mind-numbingly boring exp just so I don't have to worry about losing a level or whatnot. anyways, that's the $.02 from a pretty casual player, no longer hardcore.

-yud
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:27 am

look at the number of people who have rogue alts (MOST)

now look at the number of people who have priest or mage alts

i think the xp tables just need to be looked at for rogues ..

imho it is fine for the mage tables to be higher .. for the invoker he is looking to be the most powerful caster ... he SHOULD have a little harder time leveling

same with clerics ... the ress spell is important as hell ... take a lvl 50 cleric with no ress spell over a lvl 47 cleric with ress to a zone? doubt it

but then you have the rogue and his xp table ... talk about balance issues :P
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Postby Ihazim » Sat Jun 05, 2004 6:44 am

whenever i would play those DnD games like wake of the ravager i always assumed rogues had the easy tables because they were meant to die often. Or maybe it was because their skill set sucked in comparison to dieing often. But im pretty sure it's based on Dnd (thief tables) which i think the mud should try to get back to. (getting back to DnD)
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Postby Sesexe » Sat Jun 05, 2004 8:10 am

You should also get experience points:

- If Ssreev is in your group and dies.

- If Tehdar is in your group and dies.

- If Artikerus levels. No, he doesn't need to be in your group, just if he ever levels.

- If Ambar tells you about being in the military. Per Tell/Post!


You should get double experience points:

- If Nilan is in your group and in the extremely rare event that he actually dies.



Um.. can't think of anymore. Brain Freeze. A little help here?
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Postby Ambar » Sat Jun 05, 2004 1:14 pm

Sesexe wrote:You should also get experience points:

- If Ssreev is in your group and dies.

- If Tehdar is in your group and dies.

- If Artikerus levels. No, he doesn't need to be in your group, just if he ever levels.

- If Ambar tells you about being in the military. Per Tell/Post!


You should get double experience points:

- If Nilan is in your group and in the extremely rare event that he actually dies.



Um.. can't think of anymore. Brain Freeze. A little help here?


or when sesexe tries to be *cute*
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Thu Jun 10, 2004 1:01 am

Sesexe wrote:Um.. can't think of anymore. Brain Freeze. A little help here?

Double exp points if Ssissu is in your group and dies, tripple exp if you're the one who directly caused Ssissu to die.

Also I think that every time Tehdar dies he should lose 20% of his levels and not just current exp.
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