Level 1 newbie

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet
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Level 1 newbie

Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:59 am

I just started a new character recently. I started him off for the first 5 levels or so with only newbie eq.

I consider myself a pretty experienced muder, been muding for like...2 or 3 years.

Out of this newbie experience, I learned that even in scardale, it is hard as hell to kill something as a level one caster. I know that if I hadn't known what I know now, as a newbie there would be no way for me to achieve it. I think for the first five levels(or more?) of a newbies life, they should be able to progress themselves without outside help. There is rarely anyone for a true newbie to group with at low levels, so the "group oriented mud" phrase does not hold water. I don't think a newbie should lose exp when they die, for the first 5 levels (or more?).

A newbie logs on, noone to group with, they die, they lose the little xp they get, they say fuck it, they leave. Maybe we should make the newbies first experience of this mud a little less difficult to get them hooked?

Don't get me wrong, ScarDale is a HUGE improvement, and I love the place, but even there it can be hard.
Aristan group-says 'nurpy=tripod'

Shevarash GCC: 'Tiamat stands here, fighting Nurpy.'
Iaiken Toransier
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Re: Level 1 newbie

Postby Iaiken Toransier » Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:01 pm

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:Out of this newbie experience, I learned that even in scardale, it is hard as hell to kill something as a level one caster. I know that if I hadn't known what I know now, as a newbie there would be no way for me to achieve it.


I agree, had it not been for my higher level friends it would have taken me forever to get my elementalist to the point where he could solo with relative ease. Though I would think that with the learning curve of being a new player, this feat would have seemed daunting or even impossible with the playerbase as is. (All high level chars and alts that get pleveled to 30+ in mere days.)

I think for the first five levels(or more?) of a newbies life, they should be able to progress themselves without outside help. There is rarely anyone for a true newbie to group with at low levels, so the "group oriented mud" phrase does not hold water.


The mud has reached a stage where it isn't even remotely "newbie friendly" anymore. With the gross use of GUI's, diving into a console driven game is an enormous change for most new players. The difficulty of figuring out the mechanics and the do's and don'ts of the game can be overwhelming without help from other players. Which, compounds the problem because there are no other low level players (for long) and very few new players.

The mud is heavily group oriented; at higher levels, so in that respect it does hold true. However, many of the people here have forgotten what it is like to not know: what you are doing, where the hell you are, or even how to perform many of the actions that have become reflex for them.

I don't think a newbie should lose exp when they die, for the first 5 levels (or more?).

A newbie logs on, noone to group with, they die, they lose the little xp they get, they say fuck it, they leave. Maybe we should make the newbies first experience of this mud a little less difficult to get them hooked?

Don't get me wrong, ScarDale is a HUGE improvement, and I love the place, but even there it can be hard.


This is a HUGE problem for this particular mud, it has always been my feeling that the difficulty of Sojourn should ramp up, instead of seemingly vice versa. This would facilitate for players to learn the mechanics of the game while under little or no danger of death or loss.

A new player starts the game, they should have time to figure out how to get around, eat, sleep, fight, cast thier spells, practice skills, learn what each skill does and how to communicate. Just get used to the console.

Then upon graduating into the next level of difficulty (let's say 10+) they start to realize the harsh reality that is Sojourn, but since they already know how to get around and handle thier character, this is not too large a wall to climb.

Around level 20 they would begin to find that soloing just doesn't cut it anymore, you simply have to group to make good progress safely. (this already exists for most classes to an extent, only warrior classes can safely solo at this level) and so on and so forth as they gain levels until they are saying "God damn, Tia is a cold hard b***h"

When I came back to Sojourn after it's departure, I was still an experienced player and I had spent much time on another mud. I quickly found that there were few (if any) muds with the same level of dificulty as toril/sojourn. On that mud of 1600+ pbase I had 5 avatar level characters (+50) through soloing within a year; and before the year was out I had lead a guild, a nation, and become God of Paladins. But when I heard toril was back, I quit all of that because for me, it was too easy, I had the best gear, I had done almost everything there was to do. On Toril, I had spent a year there and not even achieved level 50, I hadn't even zoned yet outside of Ice Crag and Brass.

What was different about when I came back? I already knew what I was doing, by the time the first person had hit level 50 I was already level 36, by no means elite, but I knew what I was doing. So many of us fall into this category, we don't remember what it is like to struggle as a new player. Even without transfering gear to our lowbie alts we can still nail level 20 in two days playtime, tops. So new players who spend weeks watch experience players solo off into the higher levels, taking thier skill and experience with them.

People like Lilithelle, Mori, Ambar, Ashiwi and many others (including myself when I do come back on the odd day) actively seek out and help new players. This is commendable, but shouldn't be as neccessary for these new players to stick around. The game should start out fun, and stay fun, instead of being frustrating and difficult until you really know your stuff.

Even players from other muds with 2-3 years experience have difficulties with this one, that should tell you something.
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet
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Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Wed Jul 21, 2004 4:32 pm

Well Put Iaiken, and I hope this sees some light from the staff.
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Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Jul 22, 2004 8:01 pm

I remember day 1 of Soj3. So many of us all level 1 scrambling around to kill even the puniest mob. How'd we do it back then? We all teamed up together and through ourselves at something til it died, with a lot of us dying in the process. Hell, at level 3 I managed to group with Todreal (a giant level 11 at the time) in order to get to level 6 where necro's get something useful to solo with.

Or Sometimes us mages would get lucky and someone started a tank (drow warriors have always been rare). Then we were able to level up, biting and screaming the whole way up, a bloody adventure.

Now it's a little over 3 and a half years later on the same pwipe setting. Not much has changed for the newbie levels in terms of leveling up. A new feature here or there, but for new levels, AND ESPECIALLY MAGES, it is STILL dam hard to level up as a new player. Why is that?

Look out! Two new newbie zones!

Still just as hard to kill level 1 mobs as a mage. How is this improving things for newbies exactly?.


Look. For new players this mud is not easy. Not even CLOSE. It's increasingly frustrating to someone who doesn't have friends here already. There also is a ton to read! It's not something someone who's never mudded before can just jump into and go. Remember the first time you mudded? How long did you spend just reading help files? How many games do you play that come with a 400 page instruction guide? How many muds even teach you how to use the mud clien you're using to connect! (Did we forget that part?).
(Talking with a friend of mine very recently.)
"I gave up on it?"
"Why?"
"I can't read that fast. Screen just blows right by for me."
"Did you know you can stop the scroll?"
"Um.. well no. You can do that?"
"Yes. And you can even scroll backwards to see what you missed."
"Well that makes a difference."
"You can even set the scrollback for as long as you want it. I have mine set to almost 300 screen lengths."
"How can I do that? Show me, and maybe I'll give this another shot."
"Sure! While I'm at it, I'll show you some other tricks Zmud can do."


Look at us on the MUD. So smug and happy with ourselves because we know how to play this game. Anytime anyone of us has a question, what do we do? "Read the help file!" That's like being a teacher in a class and anytime a student has a question we respond with "Look it up in the encyclopedia! Duh!" Even I do this sometimes, but I do try and explain it to the person first, and then, afterwards, let them know about the help file "for more detailed information and specifics."


Recently I took an honest to god newbie around for some playing instruction. He was having a very hard time, as a drow rogue, killing things. I had him enter Toril and watched him as he fought some slaves. It was very hard for him. He had to flee and come back 1-2 times (to reheal up) before a mob would die. Sometimes it was a lot worse. I kept thinking.. jeez what if he was a mage, this would be awful. :(

Anyways, I decided to try a couple experiments with him.
- Haste, of course, increased the speed at which he could kill a mob, but it wasn't as important as another discovery I noticed. Something else seemed to be a lot more balanced.
- Contagion cast on a mob he was attacking, turned the mob from a level 1 mob, into a level 0 mob. He didn't have to flee (usually), and he would actually hit. Sure he still got hit back in the process, but his crappy THAC0 with his crappy newbie gear and crappy skills were actually allowing him to land hits. He was getting hit back almost as much as he was hitting the mob. At this point, he appeared to really be enjoying himself. From my perspective, it looked like a fair fight, finally.

Well.. perhaps all the mobs in the newbie zones below a certain level should have perm contagion applied to them? I dunno, but it sure seem to put it more in balance.
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'
Targsk group-says 'sexedse'
mount dragon
You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.
You have learned something new about mount!
moritheil
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:20 am

Interesting. So what are you suggesting? Level restricted haste eq? Scrolls of contagion that poof when removed from the area?

Or maybe editing the mobs to make them weaker? Perhaps that's it. Actually, I personally wondered if it would be easier if mobs in the n00b zone were blackmantled. That way people wouldn't get frustrated by mob healing (regen).
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Postby Grizz » Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:13 pm

If that newbie didn't have someone to tutor them and to cast spells to make the kill a bit easier they would have quit. Especially if they were attempting to play a mage. I tried killing those slaves as a mage and I was no match. I could barely kill them with the Vit that a kindly cleric would cast on me now and again.
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blast from the past 'who' list

Postby Nokie » Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:09 pm

Taken from May 13th, 2001 @ approx 7:30pm EST:

Listing of the Staff
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[ FORGER ADMIN ] Miax Oblodra, of no house worth mentioning. (o_o)
[ Administrator ] Finder Wyvernspur
There are 2 visible staff member(s) on.
Listing of the Mortals!
-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
[26 Nec] Todrael Azz'miala (Drow Elf)
[25 Pal] Hyldryn (Human)
[23 War] Dhurn (Dwarf)
[22 Dru] Gythi (Grey Elf) (RP)
[22 Psi] Kirrinnix (Illithid)
[21 Inv] Relorian (Grey Elf) (RP)
[21 War] Terau (Barbarian)
[21 Rog] Gorblie (Halfling)
[21 Psi] Xilliricum (Illithid)
[19 Nec] Dezzex (Drow Elf)
[19 Ill] Lipopple (Gnome)
[19 Nec] Ssnyss (Yuan-Ti)
[19 Cle] Elarin (Grey Elf)
[19 Ran] Shauri (Grey Elf) (RP)
[19 War] Yuggok (Troll)
[19 Enc] Drathlaen (Grey Elf) (RP)
[19 Ran] Velren (Grey Elf)
[18 War] Sekon (Barbarian)
[18 War] Kiloppile (Halfling) (RP)
[18 Ran] Ladorn (Half-Elf)
[18 Dru] Kelsiria (Grey Elf)
[18 Dru] Fendoren (Human)
[18 War] Daalgar (Dwarf)
[18 Pal] Sisor (Human)
[18 War] Thorgil (Dwarf) (RP)
[17 Ill] Nassis (Yuan-Ti)
[17 Rog] Arrtiliss (Yuan-Ti) (RP)
[17 Nec] Llaaldara (Drow Elf) (RP)
[17 Cle] Garad (Dwarf)
[17 Enc] Meruin (Grey Elf)
[17 Cle] Rylan (Human)
[17 Inv] Kaeldar (Human) (RP)
[17 Cle] Renate (Dwarf)
[17 Sha] Gerad (Barbarian)
[17 Nec] Revenki (Human)
[16 War] Udun (Ogre)
[16 War] Tramok (Barbarian)
[16 Ill] Ssilos (Yuan-Ti)
[16 Dru] Gordex (Human)
[15 Pal] Glarec (Human)
[15 War] Cerlayne (Grey Elf)
[15 Ran] Tilandal (Half-Elf)
[15 Cle] Talkryz (Drow Elf)
[15 Cle] Cralya (Dwarf)
[15 Dru] Liran (Grey Elf) (RP)
[15 Cle] Suboh (Dwarf)
[14 Rog] Nokie (Halfling) (RP)
[14 War] Brunth (Dwarf)
[14 War] Rahl (Troll) (RP)
[14 War] Touk (Dwarf) (RP)
[14 Pal] Brog (Human)
[14 A-P] Exarn (Human)
[13 War] Kali (Barbarian)
[13 Dru] Lalsed (Half-Elf)
[13 Cle] Tordalkenus (Duergar)
[13 Inv] Tolbly (Gnome)
[13 Pal] Selah (Human)
Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jul 23, 2004 8:39 pm

moritheil wrote:Interesting. So what are you suggesting? Level restricted haste eq? Scrolls of contagion that poof when removed from the area?

Or maybe editing the mobs to make them weaker? Perhaps that's it. Actually, I personally wondered if it would be easier if mobs in the n00b zone were blackmantled. That way people wouldn't get frustrated by mob healing (regen).


No, not suggesting any equipment at all. Instead I think mobs of certain levels need to have their stats adjusted in the code to have the same effective result of having contagion cast on them. I just mentioned haste cuz it was one of two ways to help the new player out and actually kill. Like I stated, the contagion was a far better way to even the battles for new players against little mobs.

Mori, I think that's a terrific idea about making the little mobs be under a blackmantle effect, or having the code adjusted so mobs under a certain level just don't heal at all. (Nothing more disheartening then running in casting one magic missile, fleeing, re-memorizing that one magic missile for 30 seconds, only to come cast it again on the mob and it's healed up. BLAH!)
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'

Targsk group-says 'sexedse'

mount dragon

You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.

You have learned something new about mount!
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Postby Disoputlip » Sat Jul 24, 2004 12:09 am

I like the new begin zone.


But to me it is very very spammy. Its more spammy than Waterdeep with 3 players trying to sell something.
Artmar
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Postby Artmar » Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:08 am

The newbie zone mobs could surely be 'adapted' a bit to make it a little bit easier for newbies. Even relatively small changes - like that blackmantle idea - would definitely improve situation for all new players (especially mage classes). The mobs might also be given some small penalties (like -1hit, -1dam, +10ac, things like that). It's not like it would throw this mud outta balance or anything

BTW: I wonder how long a (truly)new player spends on rolling his/her char? 15mins? 30 mins? certainly not more (and certainly not with a roller script). So in addition to starting eq, no knowledge of this mud, perhaps not much mudding experience overall, we have to add crappy stats
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Postby Asilin » Mon Jul 26, 2004 2:50 pm

I'm new to the game and my assesment of the newbie situation is it's not too bad. Casters need something though, but I think something as simple as starting with a higher damage weapon then a dagger would help a lot. I'm all for taking time to level up, but casters are rough.

And maybe scatter bard songs out more, like ever 5 lvls like spells instead of every ten levels. (Completely biases opinion, btw, in hopes of renewal getting moved to lvl 6.)

The biggest problem I have as a newbie is IDing gear. I don't have the income to support 1 plat+ ident scrolls, etc. I know that's part of the game with gear you find, but what about gear you buy? unless I'm missing something, shouldn't you be able to tell if the armor at the store is better then what you have before you buy it? I've seen some muds where shops ident the gear they have on the list and that would be nice, and it wouldn't be cost efficient to sell gear at the store, id it, then buy it back so I don't see how it could be abused. (cept newbie gear, maybe)

BTW Thanks to all the players that helped me out learning some of the nuances of this game.
Iaiken Toransier
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Postby Iaiken Toransier » Mon Jul 26, 2004 7:08 pm

Asilin wrote:The biggest problem I have as a newbie is IDing gear. I don't have the income to support 1 plat+ ident scrolls, etc. I know that's part of the game with gear you find, but what about gear you buy? unless I'm missing something, shouldn't you be able to tell if the armor at the store is better then what you have before you buy it? I've seen some muds where shops ident the gear they have on the list and that would be nice, and it wouldn't be cost efficient to sell gear at the store, id it, then buy it back so I don't see how it could be abused. (cept newbie gear, maybe)


Yeah, I've seen a lot of muds with mechanics like this before as well. A very common console command that many have is 'compare <item> <item>'. What it does is take the summation of all the items raw stats, compares them and tells the holded which of the two scored higher.

RoD did thiers like this (point basis):
Damage(1 point per point of avg damage)
Hitroll((+/-)2 points per point of (+/-)hitroll)
Hitpointsp ((+/-)1 point per (+/-)5 hitpoints)
Statboost ((+/-)1 point per (+/-)1 point of ability score)
Saves ((+/-)1 point per (+/-)1 point of saving throw)
AC (1 point per point)

So comparing two weapons: (using my ancient eq list that is no longer accurate)
longsword made of rippling flames:
3d6 +1 +2 proc flame (11 (avg dam) + 2 (hitroll) = 13)
adamantium astral-forged longsword:
3d6 +3 +3 (11.5(avg dam) + 6 (hitroll) = 17.5

So the adimantium longsword would come out top... but you would only know about the proc if you ID'd or saw it happen in which case you'd probably be better off keeping the rippling.

it's not perfect, but it doesn't have to be... at low levels people just want to have a clue which is better. I once found a new player running around with a 1d6 sword trying to kill stuff. Had they had access to the command above, they would have known that the 2d5 +1+0 sword in thier backpack was better.

As for the shop idea, I have NEVER seen people successfully abuse this, the only thing it really does is just advertises the stats of newbie items that just wind up in the shop anyway...and a polished bone shield wt30 once...but go fig.
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Postby Ruggak » Mon Jul 26, 2004 8:21 pm

The ONLY fix for the newbie is:
Level restricted or no-trade equipment. When you have players that cant take their lvl 50 quest equipment and throw it on their newbie. It will take decidedly longer to go from lvl 1-30. With more lower lvls around people who are brand new would have people to play with. Major problem is it's too late to do something like that. The no-drop or level restriction would fix alot of the questing problems tho but thats another thread.
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Postby Artmar » Tue Jul 27, 2004 9:12 am

The idea of level restriction on eq is not adressing the problem of newbies at all. It's not like number of 1-15(1-20) lev players will increase. After all if you have few friends, they can quickly get you through lower levels even when you have crappy eq. At best it would increase slightly the number of mid-level players, but that's not gonna help newbies.(and they will be denied then even occasional handouts from more experienced players).


Artmar Whiteraven
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Jul 28, 2004 11:23 pm

No reason to restrice all items by level. Some of the more "uber" items,
or items that require "epic" or "near-epic" quests should be at least
somewhat restricted to prevent rolling newbies just to use certain items.
Making items that are class specific, such as holy and unholy avenger could also be made no-drop no-give transient type eq so that one would need to be present at end quest in order to recieve their reward. Just
a thought.

Examples:
Swiftwind, Pestilence, Holy Avenger, Oakvale swords, Unholy avenger,
finder quest anything, dscale robes, etc.

Just my .02
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Postby Grizz » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:33 am

A bit off topic but what if EQ incrementally got better as you gain in level? Like the Holy avenger only does a bless for the first 20 levels and the gets the next proc and so on?
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Postby Artmar » Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:41 am

Yes, that sounds as a far better idea - not restrict eq, but place level based restricts/limitations on procs.
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Postby Eilistraee » Thu Jul 29, 2004 12:22 pm

Artmar wrote:Yes, that sounds as a far better idea - not restrict eq, but place level based restricts/limitations on procs.


Funny you should mention that...
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jul 29, 2004 5:54 pm

Eilistraee wrote:
Artmar wrote:Yes, that sounds as a far better idea - not restrict eq, but place level based restricts/limitations on procs.


Funny you should mention that...


That's already old news, isn't it? Most decent weapon procs now mod by level.
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Postby Grizz » Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:51 pm

Well it doesn't have to be just on procs. It could be that an item that is normally +9 Wis would be only +2 Wis until you hit level 10 and then have it go up incrementally. Doesn't have to be limited to weapons.
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:25 am

Grizz wrote:Well it doesn't have to be just on procs. It could be that an item that is normally +9 Wis would be only +2 Wis until you hit level 10 and then have it go up incrementally. Doesn't have to be limited to weapons.


That would seriously piss me off.

I mean, why would you bother coding that? You need int/wis even more at low levels than at high levels, because the base time on each spell is so much longer. That would really do a number on newbie spellcasters.
Yotus group-says 'special quest if you type hi dragon'

Shevarash OOC: 'I feature only the finest mammary glands.'

Silena group-says 'he was so fat and juicy..couldnt resist'
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Jul 30, 2004 8:31 pm

Eilistraee wrote:
Artmar wrote:Yes, that sounds as a far better idea - not restrict eq, but place level based restricts/limitations on procs.


Funny you should mention that...


I'd like to see some weapons, just talking about weapons, need a certain skill level to be used effectively instead of level based. If your skill level is below what's required, it could result in a curse like effect on your rolls, an increased fumble percentage, an increased reposte chance by your enemy, or even the chance to strike yourself.
Asup group-says 'who needs sex ed when you got sesexe.'

Targsk group-says 'sexedse'

mount dragon

You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.

You have learned something new about mount!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:40 pm

Grizz wrote:A bit off topic but what if EQ incrementally got better as you gain in level? Like the Holy avenger only does a bless for the first 20 levels and the gets the next proc and so on?


There are a few ways to interpret this. Let me just say that there are certain "factors" in leveling that increase frequency of proc from some
weapons. and no, i am not going to clairfy.
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Postby Katel » Tue Aug 03, 2004 5:53 am

As a 100% total newbie, I would like to second the suggestion of finding a way to evaluate equipment more accuratley both at the store and when you try equipment on.

I have blown countless amounts of money buying expensive stuff that I thougth was cool only to find that it absolutely sucks.

I also keep reading about quests and stuff like that for higher level players. It would help if there were some low level quests (like suitable for lvl 1-10) which would help direct you to some safe locations where monsters would fit your level. I have died many times simply because I wandered into the wrong area and got killed by a monster which attacks on sight (a situation which I am currently trying to resolve now... waiting for wave dancer to take me back to waterdeep and wander around to find where I died).

In short, a little more hand holding through the first few levels would help. Maybe you could disguise with with some sort of initiation quest or something.

Your help files are really good though and so are the people on the NHC. They have taught me a lot.

Just some suggestions from a brand new player.
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Postby Mielikki » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:33 am

There are dozens of quests for newbies in the new zones. Some are for 1st lvl, while a few are for higher level chars who stay in the zones leveling. I also made all the mobs classes mobs, so that they give more exp then many other low level areas. I have leveled several casters in the new areas and agree that it is a bit tedious at times, but much easier, safer and for me more fun then before. I agree that the newbie gear that players load with is crappy, but if we give players too much they have nothing to shoot for. There are so many fun items in the newbie zones that players can get to upgrade themselves, including several complete sets of armor (well almost complete sets). I had to increase the cost of the ID scrolls because higher level char's were coming in and buying hundreds of scrolls at a time. I was hoping to keep the price lower to make life easier but for that reason, couldn't.

Time permitted I will continue to add more quests, rooms, mobs to the newbie zones. I will also discuss with the other gods the newbie starting gear some more.
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Postby Katel » Tue Aug 03, 2004 6:53 am

sorry perhaps it is not a matter of not enough quests, just they are not advertised as well as it could be. I was thinking more a long the lines of your guild master either giving you one at the start of the game or telling you to visit someone particular for a quest.

Its pretty hard knowing where to find quests while learning game mechanics as well as trying to memorize the map layout at the same time.

edit: Also I don't think better gear is needed. I just need a way to evaluate gear as I come across it. Right now its very much hit and miss as well as a tedious process of comparing 'attributes' screen before and after new items.

I don't mind spending time to get my character upgraded, but a bit more of a structured path to early levels would help.
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Postby Treladian » Tue Aug 03, 2004 8:23 am

Katel's post reminded me of something. One of the things that some World of Warcraft quests do is to point a character to an area suited for their level as they outgrow the one the quest mob is in. It might be something worth replicating for lower level areas. When you're new to the mud, general directions to locations can be invaluable, along with warnings about where NOT to go (ie, going past the entrance to Split Shield and wandering into Greycloak yuan-tis).
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Postby Tasan » Wed Aug 04, 2004 5:46 pm

Katel reminded me of one of the better times I had as a newbie as well, not here mind you.

I believe on Duris I started a thri-kreen back when they weren't stuck on an island, and instead were home in old Bloodstone. I remember having a great time killing things and being able to slowly upgrade my equipment through things sold in the shop there and things found on mobs around the area. I never really needed to leave BS until I was through the first 15 or so levels. I didn't really need a whole group to do things(I did group w/ 1 or 2 others at a time for short periods), and you could see a progression in your characters advancement.

The inordinate amount of kills you have to successfully complete before attaining even level 20 is astounding to me. Making 1-15 far quicker than the next 15 levels would do wonders for improving how people react to the game as a newbie. And again with the equipment in shops: How about having someone go over the value placed upon things AGES ago, and updating them so that things that are not even close to good don't cost more than things that do give a marginal increase to stats.

Oh and one note for Katel: You used to not get an * next to things your class couldn't use. Let me tell you how frustrating that used to be ;)

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Postby Artmar » Thu Aug 05, 2004 2:04 pm

Tasan wrote:I believe on Duris I started a thri-kreen back when they weren't stuck on an island, and instead were home in old Bloodstone. I remember having a great time killing things and being able to slowly upgrade my equipment through things sold in the shop there and things found on mobs around the area. I never really needed to leave BS until I was through the first 15 or so levels. I didn't really need a whole group to do things(I did group w/ 1 or 2 others at a time for short periods), and you could see a progression in your characters advancement.


That is a really bad example, for several reasons. First, Thri-kreen, compared to all Toril races, had some HUGE advantages at the lower levels (namely increased ac, dodge-like leap, and 4 attacks - all available at 1st level). Second, you forgot to mention that all that xp and eq could be easily lost if some "friendly" player decided it's time for newbie culling. Third, Duris was strictly PK mud, so it's no wonder that exping and eq gathering would be easier there than on it's non-PK counterpart (int's not like the players were there for zoning in the first place)

Artmar Whiteraven (who always considered Duris to be extremely Newbie-unfriendly)
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Postby Botef » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:57 pm

I'm a lvl 16 now, and didn't struggle to much overcoming the first few levels as a caster (necro). I do however have much MUD experience, so most of the syntax and mechanics were logical to me.

My biggest complaint is that I have yet to even find a quest. Seems as a lvl 16 I should have at least come across one. I dunno if its because I don't know how to properly ask mobs about quest (I always try ask hello, ask quest, ask job, etc to no avail) or if I'm simply in a place that lacks them for lower lvl players (DK).

I think being coherced into doing a few quests as a lower level character would be a big help. Like I said, my trouble is I have no clue what to look for, and high lvl characters don't want to share about quests (understandable). If a few quests were pushed on new chars. they would at least be familiar with the mechanics of getting a quest, going through it, and completing it.
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Postby Demuladon » Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:52 pm

Botef - it sounds like you are doing all the correct things (ask mobs hello etc) however, without giving to much away, you are "fishing in the wrong pond". There is a thieves den near DK.. explore there abit (with caution). In a few more levels you might come and visit us Duergar in Gloomhaven..
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Postby Disoputlip » Sun Aug 15, 2004 10:52 pm

Casters are too weak the first 5 levels, no doubt there.

I think a cleric should be able to heal more or less as a bard the first levels.

I think a mage should do more or less the same damage as an illithid.

I am just not sure how it could be implemented.

The easiest as I see it is that all 1st circle spells have mem of 10 sec between level 1-6.

An other idea is that you dont have to remem spells level 1-5. (you can still forget)

That means you mem 1 magic missile, and then you have unlimited magic missiles you can cast in battle. pray 1 cure light, and you have unlimited cure lights.

l33t ppl wouldnt misuse it, because alts with good gear don't really cast spells those levels. Also, noone would stay on level 5 because of this awesome power.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Aug 16, 2004 12:19 am

Terrible idea Diso... yah would be abused and abused and abused more.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:49 am

Del, he is friggin trying

stop being so negative and re-reead your own glorious ideas ...

least he is trying



Diso ... I think the new newbie area is more than plentiful and the spells are fine .. we would be giving them the idea that its always easy, no? Teaching a brand new mage how to mem properly from lvl 1 is pretty ideal .. and with the newbie area the way it is .. even grey elves can find someone to group with ... rather then be relegated to Elfkatraz. There are plenty of little mobs in the areas of Scardale Park and Mosswood as well ... plenty to kill in the early levels ... In fact I was sort of dissapointed when my newest character gained lvl 20 and could no longer recall .. kinda want to make another new char and wander more ... can even outfit yourself in some real eq ... im very impressed with the new area in general ....
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Postby Dalar » Mon Aug 16, 2004 6:27 am

I think diso is onto something. Reducing the mem times from low level to high level (not just first circle) would be a welcomed change.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 16, 2004 8:58 am

drow and grey elves already have great mem/cast times ... so instead of the 1 or 2 star 10th circle they can now have insta cast?

and the snake cleric? dang

coem on .. we dont need to HAND folks things, the awesome stats roller and newbie area have already been put in .. isnt part of what keeps US coming back the challenge?
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Postby Dalar » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:07 am

i was only talking about mem times, what u talkin about ambar?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Ambar » Mon Aug 16, 2004 1:39 pm

just a comment that i think mem times are fine ... remember years ago the delay before you could even cast

think it's fine
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Postby Cordan » Mon Aug 16, 2004 9:39 pm

All level one mages/casters start with 3-4 slots instead of one.

Magic missiles throw 2 missiles a round at level one until level 9 instead of 1 till 6. Decrease failure rate of magic missile or make it !fail. I mean hell, it doesn't do uber damage till level 9 or 12 or so when you get 3 to 4 missiles with it, so what's the harm in making it !fail all the time. That should help newbie mages get some kills.

Give newbies some starting cash of say 3 plat 3 gold, 3 silver, and 3 copper or something. Something to do a little early shopping with. I mean, the newbie character starts out base and all, but who starts a long glorious adventure without a little cash on hand?

Hmmm, what else....
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Postby Cordan » Wed Aug 18, 2004 1:50 pm

Such an important topic. Sad that it dies so quick, only to be brought up again in a few weeks, with the same arguments, ideas, etc.
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Postby Ashod » Thu Aug 19, 2004 4:45 am

my 2 cents on new characters.

First of all I think the biggest issue is the mud needs a bigger pbase.

I think the biggest problem here is keeping new players intrested.
unfortunately the new player has quite a hard time gaining levels without some help.

Now the newbie zone is really well done imo.. but to new players i think it is still a bit discouraging to do 2 hours of work (NEWBIE WORK NOT EXPERIENCED PLAYER) to not gain atleast a level or two. I think the problem lies in balancing play for each class. I will go over a few ideas that i think might help new players get moving. Please keep in mind the new player..

Mages- All mages at low levels(without eq) take an extremely long time to kill anything at all. Mem times are horrible,spells fail quite often, and mobs even low level one mobs mow down level one casters.

Something that would be quite nice a low levels to help out with those first 20 levels or so would be maybe some new eq. two ideas come to mind.

1) Amulet of power- gives extra spell slots , 3 1st circle, 2 2nd circle, and 1 3rd circle slots. Of course spell slots are only available at appropriate levels.

2) Ring of wizardry- stores up to 3 spells from 1st to 3rd circle.

Make them quests inside the newbie zone at appropriate guild masters.

I would like to also see fimilars balanced into the game might also help.

Warriors- Warriors are by far the easiest to level from 1-35. even without great equipment a newbie with the right footing can gain 10 levels or so in a couple of days. I beleive equipment issues have been settled with newbie zone. I think they are fine for the new player and most would not disagree

Rogues- Along the same lines as warriors. I beleive equipment issues have been settled with newbie zone

Clerics- Clerics do little to no damage until they aquire flame strike and even then exp is still long and tedious. Clerics are sposed to be decent in hand to hand combat but fail to be good at anything on this mud but healing and curing malidictions.

For clerics,druids,and shamans, I recommend more damage and ac gear for lower levels in newbie zone if this has not already be resolved. also a similar idea with magical equipment for spells might be nice aswell.

last idea

It would also be nice to have open areas in the priest temples and mage guild that priests and mages can go and mem spells back quickly.
maybe even a commons.. like the fountain in town. or a small quite area in the woods.... make spells memorize back much faster in these areas.


I think the real problem lies in the time it takes to gain levels at low levels that really discourages most of the new faces.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:00 am

There are some neat ideas here. I'm going to caution everyone to remember, however, that the easier you make it for people at lower levels, the more they'll expect it to continue to be easier or similar at higher levels - and the more violent their reaction to being introduced to the comparatively harsh reality of zoning.

Split shield was a great newbie zone, for example, because people learned very quickly that if you didn't close the door you'd have wandering assisters come in and destroy you. They learned - sometimes painfully - to keep tabs on details like whether or not the door was closed. That same attention to detail serves you well in zones.

Just recently I've seen several people die needless deaths because they forgot a couple minor details in a zone. Not only did this cause them aggravation, it caused the group delays. It would be much easier (on them and on everyone) had they learned this lesson at lower level, when exp was easier.

While I love the idea of the newbie zones, and I like how mobs don't assist and don't scavenge weapons, I can't help but wonder if it teaches people to be lax about such details. I'm not suggesting a return to Leuthilspar-style harshness where if you fumble a dagger and the level 56+ guard picks it up you kiss it goodbye forever, but maybe a little something to let folks know that it IS dangerous to fumble daggers (esp. around stabbers) and you WILL have to worry about wandering mobs in the future.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 31, 2004 10:18 am

PS: I had a friend start playing recently. He said the biggest problem wasn't lack of spell slots or even taking too long to kill things, or anything like that. (Dwarf Cleric, and he leveled up with just his noob gear.)

Rather, it was the fact that he wasn't used to the movement system, had to learn how to think about his location within a grid or city, and had to remember that some of his stuff was in his bp and some was in inventory. Basically, it was the habit of keeping track of things that presented the most important step in acclimitization. It was the fact that he had to get used to quickly reading text (admittedly, noob combat is slow for us longtime players, but we've had years of practice.)

The mentality of a culture is also a major issue. For example, he'd played Diablo2 before. In that game, whoever snags the loot from a kill first gets it. Whoever kills a monster first gets the kill (the exp, if they aren't grouped). Many people don't care about others in general, and actively PK others, because the likelihood of two characters meeting again by chance is very, very low. On the other hand, in Toril, we go to extraordinary lengths to be fair to everyone in the group, using random bid systems and the like. Our system is based on relationships between people, whether good or ill exists.

Some things just need time. Some things winnow out those who can't perservere in text based games.

We do need more noobs coming. However, we ultimately want TorilMUD players, not EQ, FFXI, or D2 players who just happen to log into a Toril server.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Tue Aug 31, 2004 4:07 pm

Artmar wrote:Artmar Whiteraven (who always considered Duris to be extremely Newbie-unfriendly)


But Fren and Vuthy are such softies : (

Seriously though, Thri are a very bad example.

And it is pretty hard to lvl a caster, especially for someone's who's never mudded before at all.
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Newbie Zone

Postby Fripple » Sat Sep 04, 2004 8:09 pm

I have to say I love the newbie zone. The fact you can walk into a room with dragons and live (no aggros). The fact you can do simple quests in a controlled area (internal zone quests). And the fact that the exp/layout and access to eq is realistic make it fantastic.

I wish the normal mud allowed for more safe RP/Questing exploration like the newbie zone.

As to the difficulty for new players - the only thing I think might be useful is not allowing low levels (1-3?) to heal. The exp from those for any reasonable level character is squat - most people area kill them or single hit kill anyway later on. It would allow a poorly roller level 1 to succeed, though.

Once again, kudos on the newbie zone. I really am impressed with it.
Fripple Kiara [b:]- Stone Heart -[/b:]
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Postby Lilliana » Fri Sep 10, 2004 10:06 pm

moritheil wrote:We do need more noobs coming. However, we ultimately want TorilMUD players, not EQ, FFXI, or D2 players who just happen to log into a Toril server.


If you don't want people that are used to those games here, I think you can wait a loooong time for new players :)
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Postby chandigar » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:11 pm

Cordan wrote: All level one mages/casters start with 3-4 slots instead of one.

Magic missiles throw 2 missiles a round at level one until level 9 instead of 1 till 6. Decrease failure rate of magic missile or make it !fail. I mean hell, it doesn't do uber damage till level 9 or 12 or so when you get 3 to 4 missiles with it, so what's the harm in making it !fail all the time. That should help newbie mages get some kills.



I thought 1st circle spells were already !fail for everyone? Or did they rescind that change?

I do agree with starting with more slots though. At level 50, or heck even level 20, whats the big deal with 3-4 extra 1st circle slots? More DI?
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Postby Nekelet » Mon Sep 13, 2004 2:55 pm

I thought 1st circle spells were already !fail for everyone? Or did they rescind that change?

Magic missile often misses completely at very low levels. Besides the MR shrug message, there's a 'flies wild' message that occurred all too often the first few levels. Wish I could recall the exact text, but... it has been awhile...
At any rate, perhaps that's the '1st circle failure rate' of which he was speaking.
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Postby Cordan » Wed Sep 15, 2004 7:50 pm

That's exactly what I was talking about. As a mage, you throw your one magic missile at a mob, flee, mem, and by the time you come back to fire away again, he's already healed. Thus at the lower levels, you're basically a weak melee class. This is speaking of someone without alt gear, btw.





I read my post again started laughing when I saw "I mean hell, it doesn't do uber damage till level 9 or 12 or so when you get 3 to 4 missiles with it,". Yeah, fear the uber magic missile!
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Postby Eilorn » Sun Sep 19, 2004 3:30 am

Another HUGE problem that I see: do a 'who so ungr -40' and try to find a reasonable group. True newbies are having trouble levelling up to 20, then when they REALLY have to group, where are the people they're going to group with?

Eilorn.
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