NORENT eq

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.

No Rent?

Rent
15
41%
No
22
59%
 
Total votes: 37
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NORENT eq

Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:56 am

I've heard conflicting ideas from different people as to whether or not a zone full of !rent eq would actually get done with any regularity. (Assuming, of course, that said eq would be better than normal eq.)
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Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 23, 2004 5:57 am

I just took a look at my poll and laughed my head off.

It should read 'Rent, No Rent.'

Thank you, please continue.
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Postby mynazzaraxxsyn » Fri Jul 23, 2004 12:34 pm

If the mud had assured stability it might. But why do a zone that you might lose all the items from 5 minutes after you finish it?

In EverQuest the magician class could summon some really nice items but they were norent. But EverQuest had a greater stability then the mud does. Also if you lost link and voided you had 30 minutes to get back into the game before it would poof.

If there was some way to put a timer on the items so if the game crashed within a certain time from obtaining the items they wouldn't poof there might be some people doing the zone.
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Postby moritheil » Sun Jul 25, 2004 9:36 pm

mynazzaraxxsyn wrote:If the mud had assured stability it might. But why do a zone that you might lose all the items from 5 minutes after you finish it?

In EverQuest the magician class could summon some really nice items but they were norent. But EverQuest had a greater stability then the mud does. Also if you lost link and voided you had 30 minutes to get back into the game before it would poof.

If there was some way to put a timer on the items so if the game crashed within a certain time from obtaining the items they wouldn't poof there might be some people doing the zone.


That's actually rather easy for a coder to do (I have an idea as to how). Hmmm . . .
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Postby Artmar » Mon Jul 26, 2004 10:26 am

Or instead of !rent, they might have some time counter (RL time) after which they would expire - the better eq, the less RL hours it would last
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Postby moritheil » Mon Jul 26, 2004 3:16 pm

Okay, but I'm still curious as to how much of a sticking point it is with folks that they really don't want to do !rent eq regardless of how good it is.

I mean, if (and I'm just randomly throwing out figures) someone had a perm haste item that was NORENT and came from said zone, would that make it worth doing?

What about armor that was 200ac or something?

How far beyond the normal boundaries would NORENT eq have to be to make a zone full of it worth doing? Would it have to have really extreme things like sense life, di, all prots, great saves, all in one item? Or would something just like normal armor but with more prots and slightly increased ac/saves be worth it?
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Postby Sesexe » Tue Jul 27, 2004 10:58 pm

Well Mori, I've come to think that a zone with !rent equipment, even if very powerful items were in it, would become a purpose zone.

What do I mean?

Well sure at first it would be done until folks learned what all comes from it and how it is all !rent. Then it would only done on occasion, probably when folks got bored.

Otherwise the zone would probably only be done in preperation for harder more epic-like zones, where these !rent items would be extremely beneficial, almost needed.

In other words, a zone with !rent eq in it, would simple dissolve into a pre-tiamat zone. You do the !rent eq zone to get stacked up as high as you can, and then you do Tia.

Therefor a zone with JUST !rent eq in it wouldn't be entirely successful as a zone, other then being a fluffer for Tia. Perhaps if this zone had normal rentable equipment in it, AND some !rent eq, it would be done normally. Whether or not the average player would bid on an !rent item.. would remain to be seen tho.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:02 am

That is exactly what I would expect. The question is, is it only Tiamat that requires, or could benefit from, a "setup zone?"

What about BC? IC2? Invasions? Would those qualify in terms of justifying the need to do such a zone to beef up the party first?
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Jul 28, 2004 7:13 pm

Hey, i figure why not. we already have a zone that you go into naked.
oh! why don't we combine them! make spob EQ NORENT! Yay!
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Jul 28, 2004 9:01 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:Hey, i figure why not. we already have a zone that you go into naked.
oh! why don't we combine them! make spob EQ NORENT! Yay!


No. No. No. You mean all the EQ has to have artifact properties and a timer of use before they poof. Remember?
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:05 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:Hey, i figure why not. we already have a zone that you go into naked.
oh! why don't we combine them! make spob EQ NORENT! Yay!


I'll take it as a sign that you aren't interested.

Would anyone like to give me an intelligent answer regarding the feasibility or use of "staging zones" with NORENT eq that could be done before a major, epic zone?
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:17 pm

moritheil wrote:
Delmair Aamoren wrote:Hey, i figure why not. we already have a zone that you go into naked.
oh! why don't we combine them! make spob EQ NORENT! Yay!


I'll take it as a sign that you aren't interested.

Would anyone like to give me an intelligent answer regarding the feasibility or use of "staging zones" with NORENT eq that could be done before a major, epic zone?


The concept of staging zones isn't all that new, though it's not used in today's MUD. In past incarnations, you would have to clear Astral before doing tiamat, and it was thus a 'staging' zone. The old Knight's Test, I remember necromancers would collect up a tremendous pile of undead before going in, though I don't know if you'd consider that 'staging'.

The problem you run into, is the difficulty of the root zone. Is it designed to be difficult for a normal group? Or do you design it to be difficult for a group that has some of the staging equipment. One way or the other, the balance is skewed. If the staging zone is 'required', then you're adding X length of time necessary to complete the actual zone to walk away with actual equipment. If the staging zone is just a bonus to get better stuff, then the value of the equipment within the root zone is off-balance for those who do the extra zone for the no-rent stuff.

The idea of time-limited equipment I think is a better one than simply norent gear. With the frequency of a mud restart being so variable, it's hard to justify doing a, let's say 2 hour zone, just to get stuff that disappears twenty minutes later. That's two hours I could have been doing something different with my time that would result in a more tangible end result, be it experience or other zoning. With time limited equipment, you can be assured that you'll have item X for a certain length of time.

You've still got the issue of how strong this transitory equipment is though, and how it'll skew other adventuring while you have it. Which is ultimately the reason I don't think either idea would get implemented.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:26 pm

Precisely.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:27 pm

Sylvos wrote:
moritheil wrote:I'll take it as a sign that you aren't interested.

Would anyone like to give me an intelligent answer regarding the feasibility or use of "staging zones" with NORENT eq that could be done before a major, epic zone?


The concept of staging zones isn't all that new, though it's not used in today's MUD. In past incarnations, you would have to clear Astral before doing tiamat, and it was thus a 'staging' zone. The old Knight's Test, I remember necromancers would collect up a tremendous pile of undead before going in, though I don't know if you'd consider that 'staging'.

The problem you run into, is the difficulty of the root zone. Is it designed to be difficult for a normal group? Or do you design it to be difficult for a group that has some of the staging equipment. One way or the other, the balance is skewed. If the staging zone is 'required', then you're adding X length of time necessary to complete the actual zone to walk away with actual equipment. If the staging zone is just a bonus to get better stuff, then the value of the equipment within the root zone is off-balance for those who do the extra zone for the no-rent stuff.

The idea of time-limited equipment I think is a better one than simply norent gear. With the frequency of a mud restart being so variable, it's hard to justify doing a, let's say 2 hour zone, just to get stuff that disappears twenty minutes later. That's two hours I could have been doing something different with my time that would result in a more tangible end result, be it experience or other zoning. With time limited equipment, you can be assured that you'll have item X for a certain length of time.

You've still got the issue of how strong this transitory equipment is though, and how it'll skew other adventuring while you have it. Which is ultimately the reason I don't think either idea would get implemented.


Hmm. The strength and possible imbalancing effect of stronger NORENT eq is precisely the reason I favor a NORENT flag. The alternative proposed, having a reliable status boost for a set, known period of time, amounts to the functional equivalent of having an artifact or other super-powered item that needs maintenance.

In fact, it would seem that having a timer that runs only when a character is logged in makes it all too easy to equip highlevel characters with the high-powered equipment, and play only alts until an epic zone run is organized - whereupon an entire group of fifteen level 50s with their three-hour timers logs in. This grossly exacerbates any sort of imbalancing effect that slightly better equipment would have.

(Put simply: TIMER == Many people can have the temporary item.
NORENT == Only one person can have it.)

On the other hand, if you have done a zone and obtained NORENT equipment, it then becomes a race against an invisible clock to utilize it to its full potential. This would encourage people to stay logged in to reap the rewards of having done the NORENT eq zone. Sure, you could do that other zone anytime, but would it be quite so easy to do without this nifty NORENT shroud you got? Heck, you can stay logged in for just one more zone, right? Right.
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:37 pm

But if the power difference is enough to make that big of a difference, it makes a mockery of challenges put into other zones to justify the permanent equipment you can get from there.

If we go get your norent equipment, and say it doubles existing character power. I can now either go do another zone 2x as fast, or with half the group. Transitory equipment is making the zone easier yes, but if it becomes the regular thing to be able to do the zone easier then the equipment gets downgraded.

Look at TF. Before Soj3/Toril, it was a moderately challenging zone. It repopped, you couldn't just fold past the bulk of the zone, and Jabberwock was challenging. As things grew even easier though, the value of the equipment degraded, it wasn't 'worth' as much because the challenge faced to get it was significantly decreased.

Putting in a zone of norent equipment that substantially improves a character's power and survivability will have this effect on the overall play at a high level. Guild A will do the norent gear zone first, and then start rolling the other zones. Of course, if the norent gear isn't a substantial increase in character power, nobody will bother doing it in the first place.

Easier zoning is killing this place anyways. But that's a different debate.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jul 29, 2004 6:55 pm

I see that this discussion turns from the proper implementation and feasibility of the idea to whether or not the idea is good in the first place.

My purpose in creating this thread and asking the questions I asked was to see how it would be done - not ask if it should be done. I assumed that it was possible to balance the implications of increased power with maintaining the integrity of other zones. If we don't do that, we can't really have a discussion. I just wanted to know what people would need in order to consider such a zone worth doing.

How can you be sure that a responsible implementation of NORENT items will be ultimately imbalancing?

Now, I could answer your previous post several ways.

1) If the game is too easy, try challenging yourself. (Stock response.)

2) I never intended to suggest something that "doubles a character's power," however that would be done. Something that gives an edge is enough. (Pointing out an incorrect assumption.) I say this because people are endlessly obsessed with obtaining 5 more hps, an additional -3sv_br, etc. Just look at market prices for comparable eq. Between ame rings and flower rings, there is a vast difference in value.

Or are you suggesting that something like an additional 5 hp and -2ss on an item will double the power of a character?

3) You are arguing two contradictory things - one, that everyone would do this and thereby imbalance the game, and two, that nobody would do this, and it would be pointless. However, each scenario you have proposed depends on the gear being ludicrously good or pathetically bad.

4) Now I get back to the point of this thread: How good would NORENT items have to be to be neither ludicrously good nor pathetically bad? About what stat range would that be?

I have to point out that, additionally, that whatever time they sink into doing the NORENT zone could justify taking less time to roll through any other zones. I'm talking about 2 hours' worth of investment maybe shaving 30 min off subsequent zones, which means that if you do four zones, you'll only be up to par with the time you would have spent anyway.

This makes the NORENT zone an attractive option for people who log in on Saturday morning or Friday night and intend to spend 10 hours zoning over the weekend, and unattractive to those who only want to do one or two zones, then log. (NORENT eq is inherently incompatable with that playing style anyhow, so they don't really factor into a discussion of how to apply and implement NORENT eq.)

This encourages people to play and zone more by making it more efficient.

Thanks for reading.
Last edited by moritheil on Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:15 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:13 pm

Then I'll answer simply. Without a substantive increase in power, which for a norent piece of equipment would have to be great damage, increased spells or something similar, there is no point.

Your example of an item with all the detections would not decrease the tiem required to complete a zone. All prots would be useful but protections are needed for only certain select places. It would become a staging zone.

In order to increase the pace that a zone is completed you need to overcome the challenges faster. This equates either bypassing or killing the challenges. Utilities reduce casting time but that's not the time sink in a zone. The time required to fight stuff, and recover afterwards is.

So my answer to your question Moritheil, is that equipment gained with a norent flag would have to be much stronger than is available elsewhere to warrant the time required to get it. And in my opinion, the basis of that power, the 'stats' would have to focus on increased damage potential, and less upon utility like prots and detections.

I lump haste with increased damage, but I wouldn't do a 2hr zone to get a haste item for all my hitters. My last seelie run there were only 3 melee chars anyways - just the tanks.

If I got some of your norent equipment, I'd go put it in an out of the way room before renting, and then pick it up again when I logged in again if the mud hadn't booted anyways :)
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:22 pm

Sylvos wrote:In order to increase the pace that a zone is completed you need to overcome the challenges faster. This equates either bypassing or killing the challenges. Utilities reduce casting time but that's not the time sink in a zone. The time required to fight stuff, and recover afterwards is.


Thanks for your input on what would be helpful to you in a NORENT item.

I'm confused by something. I thought you just made a post stating that avoiding fights is what makes TF easier to do now, not increased damage.

I personally find that a ton of time is wasted in zones in spelling up, having someone key (like a main tank or sole cleric/scaler) go afk or lag, and having to do the whole thing over again.

At any rate, let's run with your argument. You're saying people wouldn't do the zone for some small, temporary increase over MAX item stats currently in existence? That's certainly true for the Weylariis and Dartans of the mud, but what about people whose eq is decidedly worse? This could temporarily grant them equivalent survivability. Heck, that could be the difference between them surviving a zone or not. And as we know, people dying slows a zone run down.
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Postby moritheil » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:24 pm

Sylvos wrote:If I got some of your norent equipment, I'd go put it in an out of the way room before renting, and then pick it up again when I logged in again if the mud hadn't booted anyways :)


If you got it, running with my earlier example, you'd have spent two hours doing a zone to get an item you're going to drop in an out of the way place.

You wouldn't think of that when deciding whether to log on or not the next day? You wouldn't consider that your time would be wasted if you didn't log on again and put that item to good use? I think there are people who would.
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Postby Sylvos » Thu Jul 29, 2004 7:34 pm

moritheil wrote:
Sylvos wrote:In order to increase the pace that a zone is completed you need to overcome the challenges faster. This equates either bypassing or killing the challenges. Utilities reduce casting time but that's not the time sink in a zone. The time required to fight stuff, and recover afterwards is.


Thanks for your input on what would be helpful to you in a NORENT item.

I'm confused by something. I thought you just made a post stating that avoiding fights is what makes TF easier to do now, not increased damage.

I personally find that a ton of time is wasted in zones in spelling up, having someone key (like a main tank or sole cleric/scaler) go afk or lag, and having to do the whole thing over again.

At any rate, let's run with your argument. You're saying people wouldn't do the zone for some small, temporary increase over MAX item stats currently in existence? That's certainly true for the Weylariis and Dartans of the mud, but what about people whose eq is decidedly worse? This could temporarily grant them equivalent survivability. Heck, that could be the difference between them surviving a zone or not. And as we know, people dying slows a zone run down.


I focused on increased damage because more ability to bypass stuff would be, frankly, idiotic. Yes, you could have items that give everybody the ability to sneak, or the ability to fold in a noteleport zone, but that's so far out there that I didn't mention it.

The key spellup spells wouldn't work well on an item, so dealing away with spellup times via items is impractical. Globe and haste are the two spells I can think of that'd work well on an item. The others you pretty much need to cast.

For the people who aren't superbly equipped, doing a 2 hour zone to gain a patch to their equipment for the boot may be viable. But even if it brings them up to an 'elite' level of gear for the boot, would it really speed up a zone? Truly? The speed at which a zone is completed is more a factor of how well the players can work together, than how strong their equipment is. This is why guilds who zone together tend to start doing really well in that department. Equipment helps, but teamwork is the key.

But I digress. I _personally_ wouldn't do a zone with norent equipment unless it provided such a boost to my character that would be unbalancing. Even then I doubt I'd do it, but that's just me :P But I'm among those who'd be considered to have 'elite' equipment already, so I'm not the right one to address your most recent scenario.
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a different angle

Postby Abbayarra » Thu Jul 29, 2004 10:37 pm

How about this, a transitory norent item you get from doing a 2 hours subzone. This does not increase the strength of your character. You do need it to get the really good reward(s) at the end of the zone.
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Re: a different angle

Postby moritheil » Fri Jul 30, 2004 4:23 am

Abbayarra wrote:How about this, a transitory norent item you get from doing a 2 hours subzone. This does not increase the strength of your character. You do need it to get the really good reward(s) at the end of the zone.


Nods, I have thought about tacking it on to an existing zone, but I'm really interested in the concept of having a zone be purely NORENT eq.

Heck, SF has a NORENT staff, if memory serves.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Aug 01, 2004 3:39 pm

Bottom line. With NORENT eq, as soon as the mud boots, or you void, or
rent or whatever the case may be, POOF all the work you did to get
said "item X" that is NORENT is gone. If you wanted this system, go
play one of those muds that has all your eq poof every time you leave
the game, and you get to go spend a couple hours getting back to where
you were just before you quit.

To quite Dennis Leary:
"wake up and smell the f'ing maple nut crunch"

As everyone else has said, a "time-restricted" system would be better,
preferably with a randomizer that doesn't make the time with the item
predictable, nor its location predictable. And an entire zone of these
items would be rediculous! =P

Tho, on an interesting note, i think MtG introduced a really annoying
feature called "phasing" at some point, that might have an interesting
use here. Items could "phase" in and out randomly, thus being usable
sometimes and not others. Would be neat to have an artifact or two
that perhaps did this in ADDITION to something like the "time-restricted"
method. Chaos is so much FUN!
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Postby Artmar » Mon Aug 02, 2004 5:44 pm

Sentient artifacts with stubborn (or just plain arrogant) attitude? That might really be funny, with all those 'but you forgot to say "Please"...', 'oh, all right, but remember, you owe me one' or 'don't disturb me now. I am trying to think'
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Postby moritheil » Mon Aug 02, 2004 11:22 pm

Delmair, that gets into balance issues (see my really long winded post on why), so it's near-impossible to maintain with current code unless they wish to utilize artifact code.

Artmar, that's a pretty humorous idea. =)
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Postby moritheil » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:07 am

Lost a tell or two, but I thought I would give you the pros and cons as discussed by Delmair and I.

EDIT: Oops, thought wrongly. Sorry del, I thought we were on the record for some reason. My mistake.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Aug 03, 2004 12:48 am

I didn't consent to having my conversation videotaped/recorded. I demand its removal.
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Postby moritheil » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:34 am

Fundamentally, is there anything good or bad about a new area coming in as a "staging zone?" Looking over the different possible uses for a zone, I'm really zeroing in on the "survivability boost" concept.

Basically, everyone's first instinct is that NORENT items are worthless.

As an example, consider an item that I made up on the spot in my discussion with someone, for example, was an item that could prevent death from bleeding procs. Obviously something like that might be helpful for a BC run. Now, the reader's response will probably swing to the other end, namely that the entire point of BC is the danger of dying to nasty bleed procs, and having something like this would ruin the point of the zone.

However, I submit to you that it would not be a big deal, because only one person could have the item, and only one item could ever exist at a time (since the item is NORENT). This item could be given to an important player (cleric or tank, probably) who would then be that much more effective in the zone. Something like this would be a nice boost without completely ruining the zone (i.e. a set of 15 nobleed items, or a rentable nobleed item), and would provide more options for someone about to do a high-end zone. ("Do we want to do it straight up, or do we want to spend 30 min to get the NORENT stuff: a nobleed item and a ring or two with slightly more hps?")

It could be worth it for a few high-end zones.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Mar 15, 2005 8:56 pm

it really depends on the eq. I have no problem if a !rent 50 hp prot all robe comes out of a zone (given an appropriate amount of risk vs reward) but i certainly wouldnt want to see anything that increases damage output come out of their (read insane proc weapons) or a !rent nobits sneak or hide cloak.

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