Bringing exp into balance

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.

Do you feel exp needs balancing?

Yes, across the board
19
76%
Yes, but only at certain levels (please specify)
3
12%
No, but there needs to be set standards (post ideas please)
0
No votes
No, the system is fine as it is.
3
12%
 
Total votes: 25
Iaiken Toransier
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Bringing exp into balance

Postby Iaiken Toransier » Thu Aug 05, 2004 1:13 pm

Bored at work with not much else to do, but to think...

What if the currently messed up meathod of high exp tables and fixed exp values was brought into balance similarly to the challenge rating system for D&D 3E was (only without the glaring logic errors that currently exist in it)

What if mobs gave exp based solely a rating derrived from thier mob/class levels and thier special abilities? You could easily compute how much exp a player of equivalent level could attain buy killing such a beasty.

(not 100% sure what the numbers actually look like on toril so please bear with my example.)

White Dragon (Not the most fearsome of the lot)
50 mob levels of dragon.
4 for being able to breath ice
3 for wing buffet
-----------------------------------
57 challenge points

8 50th level characters
-----------------------------------
57 challenge points (50 for the first character and 1 for each 50th level character beyond)

This should make for a somewhat fair and challenging fight on both parties accounts.

THe mud needs to find a best fit system of standardized exp if they want to start bringing that aspect into an easily regulated and balanced system.
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Re: Bringing exp into balance

Postby moritheil » Thu Aug 05, 2004 8:10 pm

Iaiken Toransier wrote:Bored at work with not much else to do, but to think...

What if the currently messed up meathod of high exp tables and fixed exp values was brought into balance similarly to the challenge rating system for D&D 3E was (only without the glaring logic errors that currently exist in it)

What if mobs gave exp based solely a rating derrived from thier mob/class levels and thier special abilities? You could easily compute how much exp a player of equivalent level could attain buy killing such a beasty.

(not 100% sure what the numbers actually look like on toril so please bear with my example.)

White Dragon (Not the most fearsome of the lot)
50 mob levels of dragon.
4 for being able to breath ice
3 for wing buffet
-----------------------------------
57 challenge points

8 50th level characters
-----------------------------------
57 challenge points (50 for the first character and 1 for each 50th level character beyond)

This should make for a somewhat fair and challenging fight on both parties accounts.

THe mud needs to find a best fit system of standardized exp if they want to start bringing that aspect into an easily regulated and balanced system.


Hey,

In my experience, generally the wingbuffet is far worse than breath. Also, all dragons breathe / buffet.

Overall though, it's an interesting idea, but would probably require some kind of tremendous overhaul of the system. Right now, damage, healing, and stoning are accounted for in an effort to make increased effort rewarded with increased exp. Of course, this causes disparity in places (witness the effort and reward in rogue exp vs. enchanter exp).

The questions pertinent to that are:
1. What imbalance exists?
2. Which of these need to be addressed (i.e. is a level 50 enc is far more powerful than a level 50 rogue? If so, does that justify the increased difficulty in exping?)
3. How should they be addressed?

These questions are inherent to the system itself regardless of whether challenge points, exp, or some other system is used for determining leveling.

As a side note, it would be great if dragons were worth good exp and people could actually do dragon runs for xp!
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Postby Ashod » Fri Aug 13, 2004 8:52 am

Exp should be per kill....

melee/spell damage exp and spell exp should be removed.

exp loss before level 35 should be non exsistant.
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Postby Zen » Fri Aug 13, 2004 5:19 pm

My ideas:

1) Fix trophy so it actually works as intended.
2) Apply trophy to damage xp only
3) Reduce damage/healing xp
3) Make XP tables the same for all classes
4) Increase XP based on the number of players in the group. The more you have the more you get.
5) Make beating the encounter the most important thing, 95% of a groups xp should come from kills.

Net result, damage dealing classes have to contend with trophy reducing their effectiveness. Overall, they should level only slightly faster than other classes, which is a stark contrast from the current state. Defensive classes should see an increase in their xp progress, and basicly everyone is on the same footing.

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Postby rylan » Fri Aug 13, 2004 7:18 pm

Haha reduce healing "xp"?
Its pretty negligable already.
Artmar
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Postby Artmar » Fri Aug 13, 2004 9:56 pm

Zen wrote:My ideas:
....
3) Reduce damage/healing xp
...
5) Make beating the encounter the most important thing, 95% of a groups xp should come from kills.
...


IIRC damage to kill XP ratio has been purposefully shifted (several times) more and more towards damage as one of means to hinder powerleveling. Of course with kill XP lowered, it became necessary to introduce other means to gain XP for non-damaging classes (thus healing & spell xp)

3) Make XP tables the same for all classes

I must say i don't really understand idea beyond that one (especially in connection with other points) - if XP tables will be the same for all classes, and XP gain/kill will be basically the same for all classes, then it will obviously only increase differences in advancement speed between classes (exping capabilities of all classes are not equal, after all)
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Postby Zen » Fri Aug 13, 2004 11:11 pm

Artmar wrote:IIRC damage to kill XP ratio has been purposefully shifted (several times) more and more towards damage as one of means to hinder powerleveling. Of course with kill XP lowered, it became necessary to introduce other means to gain XP for non-damaging classes (thus healing & spell xp)


The fastest leveling classes have always been damage dealers. Invokers were given massive xp tables to counteract that. So yes, there have been shifts to xp tables for just that reason. I would suggest that the xp shifts have been mostly fruitless because all the mechanisms to control xp, namely trophy, seem to apply only to kill xp wich has been dramatically taken over by damage xp. An enchanter can't compete in speed of leveling with a ranger or a rogue not only because of the difference in xp tables, but because of the damage difference.

Artmar wrote:I must say i don't really understand idea beyond that one (especially in connection with other points) - if XP tables will be the same for all classes, and XP gain/kill will be basically the same for all classes, then it will obviously only increase differences in advancement speed between classes (exping capabilities of all classes are not equal, after all)


My thought on that is that in a grouped scenario, all classes should have the same ability to xp. It has always seemed silly to me that the same group of players could hang out together, do the same stuff, but be dramatically different in levels because of they way they xp. I'm sure there are people who hold different opinions, but I don't think that requires further explanation in intelligent discussion.

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Postby Ashod » Wed Aug 18, 2004 6:10 am

*quote Artmar* IIRC damage to kill XP ratio has been purposefully shifted (several times) more and more towards damage as one of means to hinder powerleveling.


Since when has anything that has been attempted hindered power leveling? Reguardless of what way it is done, people will find a way around this and powerlevel no matter what you do. The problem with this is that yes is keeps the experienced players off guard and they just have to find a new way to get levels quick.. but it severly punishes the newer players and cause alot of them to quit. Experience is part of the life of level base games.. If you make it to hard, people will just loose intrest.

My proposal stands

1)players under level 36 don't loose exp on deaths
2)take away all spell/damage experience and any other damage rather than strait PER KILL XP.
3)balance XP tables for class. (based on newer players)

two thing added

4)I like the idea of bigger groups = better xp.. At this day and age you never see a big group of low level chars.. it is one low level soloing to usefulness in a exp group ,or soloing to 50, or riding along with a high level player raking in exp.

5)now as far as group level restrictions I have never liked them.. but if you made an experience level bonus that would be better.(basicly if one character in the group is 10 levels higher than any other group member he nils all bonuses. It would work like this. level 1 PC meets level 3 PC.
they exp well together getting a 5% bonus to exp for every kill. along come two other players, level 7 and 9. exp goes up to 15% bonus. along comes another player who is level 11.. because he is 10 levels higher than the level 1.. all players in that group get no bonus to exp and even possibly a negative to experience.

What a system like this would do... Is encourage low level players to get together to play. If you could get an extra 50% bonus to exp by having 10 players in a group.. lower levels would group together alot more.. and they could kill alot bigger things increasing exp even more.

It would also deter power leveling a bit because the lower level would get a negative to experience when grouped to high.

I believe learning your class at low levels is just as important as it is at high levels. This system might have flaws but i think that they could be overcome easier than just giving different kinds of experience to classes based on ther roll in a group.
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Postby Artmar » Wed Aug 18, 2004 2:29 pm

Ashod wrote:It would also deter power leveling a bit because the lower level would get a negative to experience when grouped to high.

Not if that higher-level player wasn't grouped with the rest - as long as he wouldn't be the one to deal the death blow, full xp would go to the group, not to him (even if there would be much more than 10 levels of difference, and even if the group waited patiently in other room till mob was brought to incapacitated).
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Postby Ashod » Thu Aug 19, 2004 3:42 am

I might be wrong but i could have sworn that the gods put a level restriction on killing incap mobs to keep people from doing this at low levels from like 1-25 if i am not mistaken. But it might haven been taken out.
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Postby Gura » Mon Aug 23, 2004 4:54 am

exp imo should be given out equally to groupmembers for kill xp. added xp should be given for using skills in combat(circling kicking casting etc..) they shouldnt be based on damage or healing in anyway
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Postby Sservis » Tue Aug 24, 2004 11:21 pm

Gura wrote:exp imo should be given out equally to groupmembers for kill xp. added xp should be given for using skills in combat(circling kicking casting etc..) they shouldnt be based on damage or healing in anyway


Agree. Give everyone the same % towards their next level, give everyone the same xp table, and award death xp to multiple groups not just one. [make it proportional to the damage that was done, but not healed away to the mob]. As far as I can tell, there's no way to really abuse this type of xp.
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