Archery Idea discussion on GCC (12 pages)

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Llaaldara
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Archery Idea discussion on GCC (12 pages)

Postby Llaaldara » Sat Aug 07, 2004 8:46 pm

For those who weren't there and wanted to know what was said. There are two ideas discussed here. The main one, and majority of the log is about rangers adding enchantments (possibly dires adding poisons) to carved ranger/dire arrows while in appropriate landscapes. Some other ideas were discussed as well. The other idea presented, starts the conversation out about the possibility of quivers that replenish arrows, and how this could handled realistically to not be overbalancing.

3nj0y!

You GCC: 'how many arrows does a ranger normally go through?'
Lorendel GCC: 'point Inama , Amolol'
Inama GCC: 'hey amolol asked, i responded.'
Amolol GCC: 'usually come in qivers of 100 i have a quiver og 200'
Lorendel GCC: 'i carry 5 quivers of 100'
You GCC: 'do you have to get more from like a store? or do you keep extra's in a bag or something?'
Inama GCC: 'if you have good arrows you don't lose them unless Shar is on, then you lose them to crashes.'
Amolol GCC: 'it was actually part of the starting statement shar... the statement was that we need more 2/2 3/3 arrows that are easy to get'
Raspor OOC: 'Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results. -Albert Einstein'
Inama GCC: 'nog, and i said someone told me 2/2s are in bg'
Lorsalian OOC: 'Chaos theory .. the justification for that insanity :p'
Inama GCC: 'never bothered to verify it though.'
You GCC: 'I'm curious to wonder, if there was a such thing as a quiver that magically replenshed itself. how big would it have to be, and how often would it have to replenish in order to be useful?'
Inama GCC: 'it would have to replensh with arrows better than 1/1, 1/1 arrows are cheap and easy to get'
You GCC: 'just normal arrows mind you. nothing with bonuses. let's start with that.'
Amolol GCC: 'well a 200 arrow quiver that replenished itself every 15 minutes would be about right'
You GCC: 'every 15 rl minutes? talk to me in mud terms'
Amolol GCC: 'oh 2 per day'
Inama GCC: 'hrm, do you really lose that many arrows amolol. i'm not familiar with the break rate of mundane arrows but the good ones don't seem to.'
You GCC: 'well let's say, we are talking 0/0 crappy arrows. '
Amolol GCC: 'on mundane arrows pretty much as soon as you take them out of the quiver they are busted'
Amolol GCC: 'thats from using the steel tipped arrows that are 0/0'
Lorendel GCC: 'no one would uyse normal arrows even if the quiver was infinaite filled '
Amolol GCC: 'right'
Amolol GCC: 'at least not for anything other than xp'
Amolol GCC: 'that are absolutly of no use in a zone'
Inama GCC: 'isn't it also skill or level dependant how many break?'
Amolol GCC: 'nope'
Amolol GCC: 'purely the arrow'
Inama GCC: 'thought i heard someone say that once'
Amolol GCC: 'not in my experience at least'
You GCC: 'why are 0/0 arrows useless in zones?'
Lorendel GCC: 'if you miss your arrows has a higher chance to break i beleive'
Amolol GCC: 'i could go fill my quiver with steel arrows and go start soloing ferns... after like 2 ferns i would hafto go buy new ones'
Amolol GCC: 'they dont cut through shield'
Inama GCC: '*shudder*'
Amolol GCC: 'they bust on it'
You GCC: 'ahh,, so you need atleast +1 hit to break missile shield?'
Amolol GCC: 'yes lorendel but the 0/0 arrows all seem to break on the mob'
Lorendel GCC: 'yeah DS shreds arrows'
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
Lorendel GCC: 'dont really know never really used them'
You GCC: 'ok. now how could an unlimited quiver supply be abuseable?'
Inama GCC: 'probably couldn't if you flagged them no sell.'
Inama GCC: 'guess you could use it to give free arrows to other rangers'
You GCC: 'what about in terms of combat situations'
You GCC: 'could a ranger theoretically shoot a mob to death from a room away doing this?'
Inama GCC: 'i don't think its a real issue if you have rangers already running around wiht 500 arrows'
Amolol GCC: 'first of all something like that would hafto be longer than any other quest on the mud imho'
Inama GCC: 'no'
Daksnar GCC: 'takes forever & many arrows, but yeah, done it b4'
You GCC: 'how effective is shooting int other rooms?'
Lorendel GCC: 'i have done that yes'
Rokar tells you 'oh heheh think zarel's is only like 17'
Inama GCC: 'shooting from a room away is pretty lousy though'
Amolol GCC: 'once you shoot a mob from outside a room the mob gets the aware flag'
Inama GCC: 'would take forever to kill anything substantial'
Daksnar GCC: 'ya, you get 1 good round'
Amolol GCC: 'mebbe 1 in 25 arrow will hit at that point'
You GCC: 'so aware does what? makes them dodge your arrows from there on out?'
Amolol GCC: 'rangers pretty much can only solo !track !di mobs when they are using a bow'
Amolol GCC: 'pretty much'
Amolol GCC: 'or they snare them'
You GCC: 'ahhh'
You GCC: 'so other then trying to sell them (which would be pointless if the arrows it made were worthless), and giving them to friends (which could exaust your supply if you gave too many away - like in the middle of a zone) are the only ways it would be twinkable??'
Amolol GCC: 'no'
Amolol GCC: 'im sure someone would realize that 200 arrows that replenish every 15 minutes (2 per mud day) could be very usefull in attacking huge ass mobs'
Amolol GCC: 'peronally i would find the first !tracking !di mob i could and start pumpin it full of arrows'
You GCC: '200 arrows every 15 mins is for a heavy amount of use?'
Amolol GCC: 'or even just !track'
Amolol GCC: 'yea really heavy'
Amolol GCC: 'and if you didnt collect after each fight'
You GCC: 'so how would 200 1/day be?'
You GCC: 'or maybe 100 1/day'
Amolol GCC: 'doesnt have the same potential'
Amolol GCC: 'and with crap 0/0 arrows doesnt replenish ennough'
Amolol GCC: 'i can absolutly kill 400 arrows in 1 mud day'
You GCC: 'ok, let's say they are 1/1 now, 100 1/day would be.. helpful.. but not enough?'
Amolol GCC: 'epending on what im doing that is'
Daksnar GCC: 'how about a single +10/+10 /day, heh'
Amolol GCC: '100 you shoot through in 1 fight'
You GCC: 'not amolol, here's the thing to consider tho'
You GCC: 'you could theoretically run around with multiple quivers'
Daksnar GCC: 'twinkability ...?'
You GCC: 'that did this.. so... '
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
You GCC: 'I think the item would have to recharge only when worn tho'
Inama GCC: 'oh like pimakoto and his 4 proc swords?'
Amolol GCC: 'i dont belive in stockpiling eq like that'
Daksnar GCC: 'gotta consider that factor, always, when creating items...'
You GCC: 'so 300 1/1 1/day would be.. kinda nice then?'
You GCC: 'if they only recharged when wearing I mean'
You GCC: 'I'm ofcourse guessing that rangers don't range weapon the whole time in zones nor every fight, or do they?'
Amolol GCC: '300 1/1 would not only be the best quiver in the game but you just literally eliminated the possability of running your quiver out'
Amolol GCC: 'humm'
You GCC: 'here's the thing amolol, wut if the arrows weren't collectable?'
You GCC: 'one you shot them, they were gone until they replenish'
Amolol GCC: 'howabout a 200 quiver of 1/1 that would give 1 arrow every 1 mud hour'
You GCC: 'once I mean'
Amolol GCC: 'as long as it was worn'
Daksnar GCC: 'transient will cut em down a lil bit, but could make em poof on fire'
You GCC: 'nod daksnar'
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
You GCC: 'here's another question'
You GCC: 'on arrows again'
Raspor GCC: 'why don't you all just use hand carven arrows? they aren't that bad really'
Lorendel GCC: 'have a fire and frost version'
Amolol GCC: 'btw just flagging an arrow transient wouldnt do it'
You GCC: 'are there any arrows that have spell effects on them currently? like when you shoot the mob it hits with a spell?'
Amolol GCC: 'no'
Daksnar GCC: 'don't think so, dunno if that coded'
Amolol GCC: 'the closest thing to that is the imix warbow'
You GCC: 'which does what?'
Daksnar GCC: 'bow proc tho, not arrok proc'
Daksnar GCC: 'arrow, hehe'
Amolol GCC: 'which enshrouds the arrows in flame'
Lorendel GCC: 'hellish warbow has some kind of fire proc'
You GCC: 'nod'
Amolol GCC: 'thats as close as we get'
You GCC: 'so right now, rangers cannot do any kind of apply poison to their arrows either, right?'
Daksnar GCC: 'nope...'
Daksnar GCC: 'that'd prolly be eaier to code than spell-proc arrows'
Amolol GCC: 'tho im not sure it does fire damage when it doesnt proc even tho it shows every arrow as enshrouded in flames weather ot proc's or not'
Lorendel GCC: 'can rogues use crossbows'
You GCC: 'poison isn't exactly rangerly, was just curious on the fact is all.'
Inama GCC: 'it doesn't really fit rangers'
Amolol GCC: 'actualy being intune with nature poison is exactly our style'
Lorendel GCC: 'is very goodly tho'
Amolol GCC: 'can we say poison dart frogs?'
Lorendel GCC: 'is not very goodly tho'
You GCC: 'I was thinking more along the lines of.. how interesting arrows that carried a minor dispel magic effect with them would be?'
Amolol GCC: 'rangers "should" be nutral ... like druids'
Amolol GCC: 'well missile shaield would be a problem if ranger dispel magic actually worked'
Amolol GCC: 'wouldnt'
You GCC: 'what usefull offensive related spells do rangers use now?'
Amolol GCC: 'this is where most ppl mention that eles get thunder lance and enchanters get there spell and so on'
Amolol GCC: 'i usde call lightning in SS'
Daksnar GCC: 'that's sooo fun!'
Amolol GCC: 'in refrence to the shield thing... i almost never see any one go out of there way to bust down missile shield'
Amolol GCC: 'very few ppl do that'
Inama GCC: 'cause we hate rangers and could care less if you could shoot or not.'
Amolol GCC: 'exactly'
Rolaz GCC: 'inama 1 rangers 0'
Amolol GCC: 'which is while missile shield either needs to be fixed or removed'
Rolaz GCC: 'no..melee just needs to be fixed so u have an alternate method of being somewhat useful'
Amolol GCC: 'melee works better than archery at this point'
Rolaz GCC: 'archery is good for pleveling'
Amolol GCC: 'and beyond that mostly useless'
Daksnar GCC: 'i like the idea for apply-poison (for dires), & enchant-arrow (for rangers)'
Amolol GCC: 'luring is still a rogues job'
Amolol GCC: 'for the most part'
Amolol GCC: 'rangers could use a 10th circle quested spell that lets them shoot through missile shield when the spell is active'
Amolol GCC: 'give it a shorter duration than missile shield tho'
Rolaz GCC: 'could just remove archery then buff up rangers by giving them third attack'
Rolaz GCC: 'at like 40 or so'
Daksnar GCC: 'good idea for a subject... 3rd attack ? ;}'
Raspor GCC: 'remove archery? heh'
Wobu GCC: 'why aren't there any quests for Warriors?'
Amolol GCC: 'not gonna get ppl to remove archery'
Daksnar GCC: 'i like the idea for apply-poison (for dires), & enchant-arrow (for rangers)' I couldn't agree more
You GCC: 'Daksnar GCC: 'i like the idea for apply-poison (for dires), & enchant-arrow (for rangers)' I couldn't agree more'
Amolol GCC: 'there are'
You GCC: 'hey back on target, you wanna rant about the class, goto you bazillionth bbs thread about it :P'
Daksnar GCC: 'would give them more 'flavor' at least ;}'
Lorendel GCC: 'bless arrow for 1/1'
You GCC: 'can rangers make arrows right now?'
Lorendel GCC: 'or 0/1'
Rolaz GCC: 'carve yea'
Lorendel GCC: 'yes carven'
You GCC: 'and carved are what? 0/0?'
Rolaz GCC: 'yep'
Lorendel GCC: 'do innate woodcarving skills notch'
You GCC: 'and bless does what effectively, ranger bless?'
Lorendel GCC: 'the effect of bless on objects is not entirely known'
Daksnar GCC: 'or entirely coded yet ...?'
You GCC: 'well I mean on players'
You GCC: 'wut's it do?'
Amolol GCC: '2hit'
Amolol GCC: 'it gives 2 hit to a player'
Daksnar GCC: 'something like +2hit, -2sv_spell'
You GCC: 'It sounds in-theme for a ranger to be able to carve arrows from the would of his protected land and enchant them with minor effects. Sounds appropriate to me.'
Daksnar GCC: 'i think *shrug*'
You GCC: 'wood not would'
You GCC: 'ugh, fingers doing crazy things again'
Lorendel GCC: 'would have to bless each arrow individually'
You GCC: 'yep, but as far as I can tell, rangers don't mass produce carved arrows do they? it's one at a time, right?'
Amolol GCC: 'not a problem'
Amolol GCC: 'rangers have ALOT of spare time'
Lorendel GCC: 'hehe'
You GCC: 'am I correct or wrong about carve btw? one at a time?'
Daksnar GCC: 'aye, 1 ata time'
Lorendel GCC: 'yes one at a time'
You GCC: 'well then only enchanting one at a time.. sounds like you carve then enchant. anyone see a problem with that?'
Daksnar GCC: 'mebey put more skill-lag on & do 5 at a time ? justa thought...'
You GCC: 'now what kind of duration would the enchantment need?'
Lorendel GCC: 'too bad you cant eventually become a master fletcher and increase your woodcarving ability to make better carven arrows '
You GCC: 'we obviously wouldn't want people stocking up with 10,000 blessed arrows forever'
Inama GCC: 'still not a bad idea to let people with spells and time make better arrows, better than 0/0 at least. 2/2 or maybe even 3/3'
You GCC: 'lorendel that's a great idea. if you could increase the durability of normal arrows, that would be nice. But I still feel any carved arrow, now matter how great, once it's enchanted and fired, it destroys on impact.'
You GCC: 'just like a caster, once they cast it, the spell is gone and have to remem/remake it'
Lorendel GCC: 'actually enchanted or blessed arrow should have less a chance of breaking'
Daksnar GCC: 'lose it, bah'
Amolol GCC: 'heh we need classes that are there for game flavor... like fletcher, tinker, black smith'
Inama GCC: 'arrows need word of recall!'
Amolol GCC: 'i would play them'
Daksnar GCC: 'aye, enchanted arrows lose thier enchantment once fired (AD&D rules anyway)'
You GCC: 'I can agree on that Lorendel. Just that the enchantment should be lost upon firing.'
Daksnar GCC: 'is what i ment'
Raspor OOC: 'anyone play simcity4 here?'
Raspor OOC: 'thinking about picking up the game'
You GCC: 'aye daksnar'
You GCC: 'sounds balanced'
Inama GCC: 'rangers, the class for people with too much time on their hands.'
Asasas OOC: 'I still won't kiss you. Even in simcity4. Geez.'
Inama GCC: 'not sure i'd like to have to prepare for each zone by mass enchanting arrows'
Rolaz GCC: 'the ultimate idlebot class if u let them enchant their own arrows'
Raspor OOC: 'huh'
Asasas OOC: 'my sister plays simcity. she uses it as a platform to kiss boys she likes.'
You GCC: 'the ranger enchants their own arrows. it's not something another class would do, that was my thinking.'
Raspor OOC: 'is it the sims? I'm under the impression this is a city building game'
You GCC: 'be even more appropriate if the ranger had to be in a forest room'
Asasas OOC: 'oops. yeah, sims'
Raspor OOC: '*swat*'
Lorendel GCC: 'in order to carve arrow you have to be'
Asasas OOC: 'I still won't kiss you :P'
You GCC: 'standing at the fnt or 3w carving arrows of wood from your protected lands and enchanting them.. doesn't really sound too appropriate'
You GCC: 'ahh well that's terrific then :D'
Raspor OOC: 'ok I give up, who are you!'
Lorendel GCC: 'all innate woodcarving abils have to be done in nature room'
You GCC: 'does that garden in wd work?'
Raspor OOC: 'ah Muma!'
Amolol GCC: 'not exactly'
Rolaz GCC: 'i wouldnt think a garden is actually nature'
You GCC: 'i'm hoping 'no''
Amolol GCC: 'i can carve wood at the ftn'
Kikuji GCC: 'i wouldn't call a fountain nature either :P'
Amolol GCC: 'any room flaged nature will word'
Amolol GCC: 'work'
Amolol GCC: 'i can carve anything in my carving list at the fountain'
You GCC: 'hrmm.. suppose it would need to be dependent on the terrain type flag of the room then (same flag that dictates how much move it costs) in conjunction with the nature flag?'
Daksnar GCC: 'aye..'
Daksnar GCC: 'light & heavy forest only, methinks'
Raspor GCC: 'clearly the fountain should be banned'
You GCC: 'that would eliminate any place within a city, since all those terrains are flagged city'
You GCC: 'ok next question'
You GCC: 'how powerful of a spell from the ranger selection should be allowed to be added to one of these arrows?'
You GCC: 'what's the spell circle cap?'
You GCC: 'in other words'
Amolol GCC: 'ROFL powerfull ranger spell LOL'
Amolol GCC: 'heh'
Amolol GCC: 'i would say 9th or 10th'
You GCC: 'woops, guess I missread. Thought you had major para, just saw it was minor. '
You GCC: 'I guess each spell would have to be looked into'
You GCC: 'be neat to see rangers shooting multiple arrows, each with different affects. How many arrows do you shoot per round?'
Amolol GCC: '3'
Daksnar GCC: '1-3'
Amolol GCC: 'with a high skill 3'
Amolol GCC: 'low skill 1'
You GCC: 'ok, now let's pretend you actually had this ability'
You GCC: 'what spells that you have, would you probably use most likely on arrows?'
Amolol GCC: 'humm'
You GCC: 'realistically'
Amolol GCC: 'faerie fire on first volley'
Amolol GCC: 'cvhange their AC'
Daksnar GCC: 'bless, sleep, dispel ma, minor par... few others ?'
Amolol GCC: 'definatle sleep and minor para'
Amolol GCC: 'mebbe dispell'
Amolol GCC: 'i dunno about bless'
You GCC: 'what about Shillelagh?'
Amolol GCC: 'why?'
You GCC: 'how much damage does that spell do? if an arrow had this, it would be added damage?'
You GCC: 'almost like a double strenght arrow'
Amolol GCC: 'it would be added damage but not enough to make a difference'
Amolol GCC: 'sticks to snakes would be better for that but still not good'
You GCC: 'how much damage to most arrows do?'
Amolol GCC: 'dust deveil mebbe'
Kikuji GCC: 'hey now, in ds sticks are like minute meteors :P'
Amolol GCC: 'i could only guess'
Amolol GCC: 'with a full volley of 1/1 on pava i did like 120 damage'
Lorendel GCC: 'cast str on arrow'
Amolol GCC: 'talking about giving the spell affect to another mob'
Amolol GCC: 'i wouldnt give them bless or str'
You GCC: 'does haste increase archery?'
Amolol GCC: 'no'
Amolol GCC: 'it can but some higher discision has said no'
Amolol GCC: 'talked to koss bout it'
Amolol GCC: 'he cant see any reason why it wouldnt and would put it in if the others would allow it'
Amolol GCC: 'is what he said'
Amolol GCC: 'just in alot more words'
Amolol GCC: 'idd put dust devil on an arrow'
You GCC: 'why's that?'
Amolol GCC: 'try to make them drop their weapon'
Amolol GCC: 'might hafto controll weather first tho'
You GCC: 'what kind of damage does call lightning do?'
Amolol GCC: 'depends on the area'
Amolol GCC: 'in SS it takes a few rounds of it to kill stuff'
Amolol GCC: 'ive seen it insta kill things tho'
You GCC: 'so how powerful would 3 call lightnings a round be?'
Amolol GCC: 'so just depends on the mob and where you are'
Amolol GCC: '3 a round'
Amolol GCC: 'prolly 3 would = minute meteors'
Amolol GCC: 'or so in a non nature room'
You GCC: 'and in a nature room?'
Amolol GCC: 'in nature were lookin at somthing close todoom'
Lorendel GCC: 'depends on how wet it is too does it not'
Amolol GCC: 'mebe 2 doom rounds or so... at the most'
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
You GCC: 'oh really?'
Amolol GCC: 'in best conditions possible 2 rounds of doom'
You GCC: 'in one round of ranged tho?'
Amolol GCC: 'thats in a storm in a nature room with maxed out spellcast nature'
Amolol GCC: 'i couldnt see it happening in 1 volley of 3 arrows tho'
You GCC: 'are you saying in one round the ranger could do comparable damage to two rounds of doom?'
You GCC: 'are you saying in one round the ranger could do comparable damage to two rounds of doom?'
Amolol GCC: 'damage on spells would hafto be reduced'
Amolol GCC: 'if the conditions were right and one could cram all 3 call lightnings into 1 single round it would be close'
You GCC: 'ok, now how many zones are out there were they are in nature rooms that would allow for this?'
Amolol GCC: 'like... none'
You GCC: 'so where would this be of use?'
Amolol GCC: 'would hafto change weather first'
Amolol GCC: 'Kikuji tells you 'why would you want an area proccing arrow? :P''
Amolol GCC: 'Kikuji tells you 'why would you want an area proccing arrow? :P''
Amolol GCC: 'to try and be a voker?'
Kikuji GCC: 'shame on j00!'
You GCC: 'call lightning is area?'
Amolol GCC: 'it was a good question tho'
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
You GCC: 'well we wouldn't want that'
Amolol GCC: 'thats why i say its close to doom'
Amolol GCC: 'i dunno'
Amolol GCC: 'it would be boatloads of fun in SS'
Amolol GCC: 'i dont know that we would want to put damage spells on arrows just effect spells'
Amolol GCC: 'and anybody should be able to do it'
You GCC: 'anybody as in any class or any ranger?'
Amolol GCC: 'like illusionist could cast scarlett flame on an arrow'
Amolol GCC: 'any class'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'major para arrows? fire from the next room?'
Kikuji GCC: 'sweet'
Daksnar GCC: 'that'd be sick :P'
Amolol GCC: 'hey we have major para poisons'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'next room a lot different than same room'
You GCC: 'i disagree. if you're going to do that, then a mage should need to have to cast enchant item on the arrow first before any effects are added to it, and then the arrow would break on impact'
Amolol GCC: 'so you have already said that we should be able to do that'
Daksnar GCC: 'expensive non-spell source'
Amolol GCC: 'i disagree with that llaaldra'
You GCC: 'I never said that. I said only the ranger could enchant his arrows. that means only a ranger and only ranger castable spells'
Kikuji GCC: 'they could just make a special kind of spell-absorbable arrow, which is either expensive, hard to get, or breakable,yes'
Amolol GCC: 'for the higher spells you could either NEED a 4/4 arrow or higher'
Amolol GCC: 'or they could have the spell effect ware off'
Amolol GCC: 'that and the spell effectiveness would be reduced'
You GCC: 'as for what daksnar was talking about earlier, with the dires getting poison, it would have to be limited as well. no major para arrows either'
Amolol GCC: 'so like we couldnt garontee a major para on a single volley'
Daksnar GCC: 'aye, major para a bit too much'
Amolol GCC: 'warriors get major para'
Amolol GCC: 'rogues get major para'
Amolol GCC: 'enchanters get major para'
Amolol GCC: 'anybody with prism gets major para'
Daksnar GCC: 'how warriors get it, again ?'
Amolol GCC: 'gythka'
You GCC: 'that's a freaking weapon proc'
You GCC: 'that's not a class ability'
Daksnar GCC: 'by item, yes...'
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
You GCC: 'get real'
Kikuji GCC: 'so?'
Amolol GCC: 'but would not the arrow be a weapon proc too'
Amolol GCC: 'the point is that they can do it'
Amolol GCC: 'and actually thats anybody evil that can dual a sword'
You GCC: 'until a warrior can enchant his gythka to proc major para whenever he wants, you got a big difference'
Amolol GCC: 'not really'
Daksnar GCC: 'be nice to prc on command, hehe'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'and the different room major para is a major ++ over proc'
Kikuji GCC: 'like the spell lands all the time anyways. pff'
You GCC: 'BIG difference between on command and random'
Amolol GCC: 'look im saying there would be a low chance of the proc'
Amolol GCC: 'iot wouldnt happen on command'
Abbayarra GCC: 'who is up for some ranger change discussion?'
Amolol GCC: 'like i said like 5 minutes ago it would all hafto be random of taking affect'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'actually sleep arrows would be the overpowered ones. hard to tell if a mob is para or not, but sleep...'
You GCC: 'to be honest, I could see giving the arrows call lightning, but I can't agree with the major para aspect'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'hello rangers solo zoning'
Kikuji GCC: 'and why can't rangers be enchanters' proccing pets? :P'
Amolol GCC: 'i can see them getting major para arrows'
Amolol GCC: 'but'
You GCC: 'just ask for ranger weapon that procs major para, that's all.'
Amolol GCC: 'there would be a low chance of the proc actually landing... lower than normal'
You GCC: 'btw, what are the ranger only weapons out there now?'
Amolol GCC: 'there arent any'
Abbayarra GCC: 'I think some of the ranger spells should change'
You GCC: 'what's the grey elf sword that procs blur then? what about the one that procs like a ton of attacks?'
Amolol GCC: 'windsong is worriorable'
You GCC: 'for who?'
Amolol GCC: 'any grey elf'
Amolol GCC: 'its grey /warrior flagged'
Tabab GCC: 'last time i checked windsong proc puts warrior at -2'
Amolol GCC: 'at -2 what?'
Tabab GCC: 'hp'
Amolol GCC: 'ill hafto look into that because according to the flags that shouldnt happen'
Amolol GCC: 'ok but that concidered 1 ranger only weapon'
Amolol GCC: 'howmany rogue only weapons are out there?'
Amolol GCC: 'that point is moot'
Amolol GCC: 'to move on Hsievssruk made an interesting point'
Amolol GCC: 'major para arrows would be alot less deadly than sleep arrows'
Amolol GCC: 'would make more sense to giv us major para than sleep arrows'
Amolol GCC: 'sleep lands ALOT esier and lasts for hours'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'sleep lasts forever unless you wake the mob'
You GCC: 'yeah, and i suppose you could sleep a mob from a room away. not really good'
Amolol GCC: 'ive seen sleep last as long as 4 RL hours'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'I've seen sleep be effected for 40+'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'effective'
Raspor GCC: 'I once seen sleep last 2 years'
Amolol GCC: 'thats one reason that that the arrows would be a random chance of the proc'
Amolol GCC: 'not garonteed like you are talkin about'
You GCC: 'yeah starting to agree with that'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'yeah but mobs don't try to wake other mobs up'
Amolol GCC: 'was the sleep from a 50 ele on a lvl 1 mob?'
Mazylen ASSOC:: 'exping?'
You ASSOC: 'dodging'
Amolol GCC: 'now you see where im commin from llaaldra?'
You GCC: 'yeah'
Mazylen ASSOC:: 'hey ses how many force missles you get at 40?'
Amolol GCC: 'im all for powerfull rangers but turning a ranger into a psudo elementalist is insane'
You GCC: 'what kind a percentage would the proc be tho?'
Amolol GCC: 'dependant on the spell'
You GCC: 'nod spell and not circle it would have to be'
Amolol GCC: 'for something like faerie fire i would say like 80%'
Amolol GCC: 'for major para i would say more towards 25%'
Amolol GCC: 'if that'
Amolol GCC: 'sleep'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'circle should be fine if the circles are balanced'
Amolol GCC: 'leave it at whatever the chance to sleep something is now'
Amolol GCC: 'that works because if a mob is hit then it awakens'
Amolol GCC: 'so if the first sleep lands there are 2 attacks right behind it'
Amolol GCC: 'effectivly removing the sleep'
Tabab GCC: 'you could twink it by firing a single arrow'
Amolol GCC: 'and shooting outside the room the first volley is the most important'
Amolol GCC: 'not if the single arrow didnt sleep the mob'
Hsievssruk GCC: 'how's tog vicious work with multiple attacks and procs?'
Amolol GCC: 'or if it missed'
Mitia GCC: 'then just continue til mob sleeps'
Mitia GCC: 'so save to twink'
Amolol GCC: 'once again it doesnt work that way'
Mitia GCC: 'err safe'
Amolol GCC: 'once you fire into a room every mob in that room becomes aware'
Amolol GCC: 'that means that your chances of hitting anything are darasticly dropped'
You GCC: 'it would be hard to sleep multiple mobs outside a room, but possible on 1 maybe'
Mitia GCC: 'aware only last a couple of min no?'
Amolol GCC: 'with my skill at arching i hit mebbe 1 out of ever 25-30 arrows on an aware mob'
Amolol GCC: 'no'
Amolol GCC: 'aware lasts a while'
Mitia GCC: 'how long?'
Amolol GCC: 'longer than half an hour to my estimate'
You GCC: 'what did you say about vicous on firing arrows?'
You GCC: 'what did you say about vicous on firing arrows?'
Mitia GCC: 'how would u estimate that?'
Amolol GCC: 'its not nearly as twinkable as you guys might think'
Amolol GCC: 'shooting at mobs'
Amolol GCC: 'i shot a fern from out of a room once and walked away'
You GCC: 'on a related note'
Lorendel GCC: 'plus alot of arrows go past the room and aggro other mobs...'
Amolol GCC: 'got back bout 20/25 minutes later and shot again and aware was still active'
You GCC: 'it would be kinda cool if you could shoot airy water into a room, or um.. sunshade'
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
Amolol GCC: 'heh'
Amolol GCC: 'som im gonna say that aware is about a half hour mebbe longer'
Amolol GCC: 'after the second volley i diodnt go away and cherck length again'
Amolol GCC: 'but aware lasts a while'
Amolol GCC: 'and this is the reason you guys let rangers in on ranger upgrade discussion'
Amolol GCC: 'cause we know that class better than any other and can say what is twinkable and not'
Amolol GCC: 'muahaha'
You GCC: 'yeah yeah yeah. now go post the idea on the bbs or something'
Amolol GCC: 'wont happen'
Amolol GCC: 'just somthing nice to see'
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Postby Treladian » Sun Aug 08, 2004 4:23 am

Oy. Lots and LOTS of misinformation as usual. I really don't understand how people don't understand the aware flag on mobs since it's been around forever to deal with backstabs and is constantly mentioned each of the 986932 times someone asks in a group or on the bbs if ranged combat can kill a mob from multiple rooms away . . .

First, the quivers thing. Any arrow below +4 is essentially useless at high levels period. Missile shield just takes away too much of it for it to be useful. Anything below +3 has no chance to dispel missile shield and the chance per arrow is still really low regardless (it is NOT cumulative and does NOT chip away, another common bit of misinformation). So if you actually did put a quiver in that regenerated +0 or +1 arrows, all you're doing is making a tool to ease ranger pleveling. Also, you normally go through between 20 and 30 arrows a fight in my experience, whether you're in a 4 person exp group or full zone group. Some fights like Yan or Imix will take more obviously (though you're better off meleeing those mobs due to wraithform anyway), but 20 to 30 a mob is average in my experience.

The haste not working with ranged thing was originally a workaround for an issue Miax bumped into with haste causing things to crash for some reason. In exchange, the damage was bumped up from what it originally was intended to be to compensate. It sounds like the bug may have gotten fixed, but that's the real reason haste wasn't compatable with ranged when it was implemented. And frankly, in principle I'm quite happy with not having to be completely dependent on an enchanter for ranged damage after all the time I had to spend acquiring mediocre arrows by myself.

Finally, the whole arrow enchanting idea. At the beginning of the Soj3 open alpha phase, Miax wrote a proposal for the ranger class after a lot of discussion with Waelos that essentially hinged on rangers using spells to enchant arrows they fired. The rest of the ranger community shot it down. I wrote extensively on the subject, among other things pointing out that ranged as it stood had a huge number of flaws that prevented it from being usable. Among them were the huge number of strays making the ranger themself a liability to the group, missile shield being a pain in the ass, ranged weapons themselves being very bare bones, and other things I can't even remember now. After reading that, Miax rethought his proposal entirely. Guess what? Everything I wrote then still applies to ranged combat right now. Long time rangers as a whole do not like ranged combat. I was willing to support a ranged combat focused class the longest among Weylarri/Waelos, Belleshel, Sylvos, and many others and now I would be happy if all the ranged code in the game was yanked out despite probably having spent more hours farming +3 arrows than any other ranger to fill up my Tiamat quiver (which also happens to be the first one looted from her horde and probably the first one in the game. There's been a lot of shifting in viewpoints regarding ranged after seeing how it really came out. That Waelos was involved in the original proposal Miax came up with and then flat out said that ranged wasn't useful in discussions later on is another example.) The only problem would be dires since their dual wielding isn't as good as a ranger or rogue to compensate for having better tanking and offensive spells than a ranger and therefore might actually lose something meaningful.

Quite simply, much of the ranger community DOES NOT WANT A STRONGER RANGED FOCUS. Historically, adaptability through being able to seamlessly integrate our warrior skills into our normal role as hitters has been our strong point. A ranged focus COMPLETELY goes against what our strength has traditionally been. So don't think that any addition to ranged combat is going to help the class out in any meaningful way and DO NOT ASSUME that it's something we want.
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Postby amolol » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:28 am

ok now that you have effectivly talked yourself up and bosted about a tia quiver that means crap to most of the rest of us...

give a reason WHY this is a bad idea? maybe most rangers dont like the idea of ranged combat because it lacks potential at the moment. personally right now i preferre melee to ranged myself. if this were implemented alot of the now rangers would use it more... alot of the rangers you have referred to have retired.. retired cpeople shouls have less of an impact on the overall descision imho.

next thought . instead of letting rangers enchant there own arrows why not just give arrows effects like.


***example***
an arrow coated with acid : acid damage with the potential to do an extra round of acid damage (15% chance)

and arrow of ice: ice damage +3/+3 vs fire mobs has a chance to chill mob

an arrow of biting : half damage has a chance to inflict "poain" on the target to the point of an agility/dexterety loss affecting defensive skills and or removing 1 swing per round (4 rounds mebbe 5 rounds effectiveness)


you get my point... of corse there would be balancing and coding issues... but no less than the preveous idea.
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Postby rylan » Sun Aug 08, 2004 3:11 pm

I don't have a ranger so take my observations however you like. From what I've seen in zoning groups, missile shield is the bane to using arrows. Unless the ranger has a quiver full of +3 arrows, you're going to keep seeing that 'thwack' message with little damage and piles of busted arrows all over the place. Even the +3 arrows take some luck to dispel missile shield quickly, but at least those don't break often.

Maybe if there was a spell or something rangers could cast at high level to poof missile shield without needing a quiver full of +3 or better arrows.
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Aug 08, 2004 4:00 pm

I don't have a tia quiver, so don't worry Amolol I'm not bragging.

I wouldn't use archery as it stands, no matter what arrows you toss out there. The system has some much more glaring flaws than no proc arrows. The topic has been discussed/debated into oblivion, I'm not going to go into the reasons for it AGAIN here. There are ways to get around the missile aware flag, and Treladian is much more correct on arrow use rate than Amolol.

Really Amolol, you discredited yourself with this bit. I nearly choked on my drink I was laughing too much.

You GCC: 'what kind of damage does call lightning do?'
Amolol GCC: 'depends on the area'
Amolol GCC: 'in SS it takes a few rounds of it to kill stuff'
Amolol GCC: 'ive seen it insta kill things tho'
You GCC: 'so how powerful would 3 call lightnings a round be?'
Amolol GCC: 'so just depends on the mob and where you are'
Amolol GCC: '3 a round'
Amolol GCC: 'prolly 3 would = minute meteors'
Amolol GCC: 'or so in a non nature room'
You GCC: 'and in a nature room?'
Amolol GCC: 'in nature were lookin at somthing close todoom'
Lorendel GCC: 'depends on how wet it is too does it not'
Amolol GCC: 'mebe 2 doom rounds or so... at the most'
Amolol GCC: 'yea'
You GCC: 'oh really?'
Amolol GCC: 'in best conditions possible 2 rounds of doom'


Seriously, come on. Play the class, don't open your mouth. Please.
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Postby rylan » Sun Aug 08, 2004 5:07 pm

My alt ate a call lightning from the ranger in DS... I think it did 52hps of damage. I had to pick on the other low level char in the group with us though, it killed him. hahaha
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Aug 08, 2004 6:58 pm

My post here is more in regards to the idea of giving dires apply poison.

Bad idea. For glaringly obvious balance reasons. Thanks.

Furthermore, having never played a ranger seriously (as if anyone can
*duck* ) i would still tend to agree that missile shield is what broke
rangers. Yes, it DOES need to be on some mobs to prevent twinking.
The number that it is currently on, makes the whole archery system... lacking. Would be nice to see something done with this, but whatever
this topic has been beat to death many a time already with little or no
change.
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Postby amolol » Sun Aug 08, 2004 8:24 pm

hey sylvos all of what was said on my part was from my experiences...

and those of you thinking wow if he thinks call lighting is lust as powerfull as doom reald the whole fucking conversation. in the best possible conditions that in a nature room during a lightning storm. THREE call lightning spells in 1 round. to my guess it would be clos (not as much as) but close to 2 rounds of doom or so.

now thats a guess i could be and prolly am way off but 3 call lightnings in 1 round under best conditions is not somthing you shrug off lightly.
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Postby Lenefir » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:39 pm

rylan wrote:Maybe if there was a spell or something rangers could cast at high level to poof missile shield [...]

Dispel magic already does that (7th circle for a ranger), but as you know, if it lands, it will also take away all other spells on that mob, like silence, blindness, slow, ray of enfeeblement, faerie fire and so on...

You also have the enchanter spell breach, which will remove only beneficial spells from a mob, but the more spells a mob have on it, the lesser probability of missile shield being removed. Also breach doesn't work on all kind of mobs, and anway, I don't quite see how breach would fit into the kind of spells rangers seems to have just to give them a spell to remove missile shield... I mean, if rangers were to get breach, then a lot of other classes should get it too, and then a lot of balance issues would pop up I think.
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Postby Lenefir » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:45 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:having never played a ranger seriously (as if anyone can *duck* ) i would still tend to agree that missile shield is what broke rangers. Yes, it DOES need to be on some mobs to prevent twinking. The number that it is currently on, makes the whole archery system... lacking. Would be nice to see something done with this [...]

Well, since a bunchload of caster mobs are flagged with enchanter class to (I assume) let them cast stone, globe, haste, fire/cold shield and so on, they also get the benefit of casting missile shield...
Last edited by Lenefir on Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Being God isn't easy. If you do too much, people get dependent on you; and if you do nothing, they lose hope. You have to use a light touch [...]. When you do things right, people won't be sure you have done anything at all"

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Postby Tasan » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:47 pm

That is just plain priceless.

Call lightning x3 in a round won't do as much as a single wave of doom.

Not to mention the fact that rangers spellcasting isn't nearly as effective as any other class, regardless of nature conditions or not.

Trel is completely correct on the whole issue. Archery itself is a neat toy, but I stress the toy part. It can be used to do some things, it can be effective in some situations, but the fact remains that you lose the ability to use half of your skills by choosing to use a bow. In a group situation, the rangers role will always be as a support unit, which is fitting by all means. It is far too much of a hassle to use archery than to have those other skills available to you to use during a zone.

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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Aug 08, 2004 9:53 pm

!tia quiver here, but I agree with Trel. I'm not as old of a ranger as Sylvos, Wey, Trel, Bel, All the other 3 letter shortened ranger names you can think of but i've put a hell of alot of time into Thalidyrr and he's still my favorite character to play.

Anyway, point being this: Why is it people who never play our class post the most suggestions about it? I see Amolol talking in that convo, and maybe one other ranger, most other people I see don't play the class and even the people who DO play rangers in the convo haven't played the class overly long.

Everyone knows what's wrong with rangers(melee in general) right now, and these posts just really don't help. Most people who've played a ranger long enough will agree with Trel as to archery being useful. Yeah, archery rules for exp. But that's really about it.

Posting more of these types of suggestions really don't help. The intention was good enough, but as for it being useful it just really isn't going to be.
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Postby Treladian » Sun Aug 08, 2004 11:58 pm

amolol wrote:ok now that you have effectivly talked yourself up and bosted about a tia quiver that means crap to most of the rest of us...


It means that at one time I was a BIG proponent of the new ranged combat engine and its potential, enough to use my bid after Tiamat on a mostly decorative quiver instead of the single best one handed melee weapon for every warrior, ranger, and dire in the game. I helped Miax alpha test the ranged code's effects at high levels at a time when there were only 4 or so level 50 rangers, I hammered it into the gods' heads that archery wouldn't mean shit in zones if strays still hit other mobs frequently at high levels, and the damn bug with missile shield completely negating ANY missile damage, even from +3s and above, was only fixed after I yelled about it to Miax when it became apparent that for some reason he didn't know about it and viewed the complaints coming from rangers as ungratefulness. As fubared as ranged combat stands now, it would be even more screwed up if Sylvos and I hadn't extensively played with, tested, and reported a lot of stuff related to ranged combat in the last few years (Bell and a lot of other rangers were already squarely against the idea of a ranged focus early on and didn't spend as much time with it).

give a reason WHY this is a bad idea? maybe most rangers dont like the idea of ranged combat because it lacks potential at the moment. personally right now i preferre melee to ranged myself. if this were implemented alot of the now rangers would use it more... alot of the rangers you have referred to have retired.. retired cpeople shouls have less of an impact on the overall descision imho.


Neither Sylvos nor Belleshel are retired. The former just spoke on the subject and has alts, the latter happens to have RL stuff to deal with.

The reason it's a bad idea is because you have NOT done anything to address the most basic problems with ranged combat. Inama is the only one that touched on basic problems in that whole discussion, even if only in a semi-sarcastic manner.

Inama GCC: 'if you have good arrows you don't lose them unless Shar is on, then you lose them to crashes.'
Inama GCC: 'arrows need word of recall!'


As long as we can lose several zone's worth of +4 or better arrows to crashes, ranged combat is a huge liability to rangers.
As long as we can wind up having a good arrow go stray in a grid and be unretrievable without fighting a lot of mobs the group may not want to fight or by making a rogue sneak out and get it, ranged is a liability to the GROUP. Why the hell should the rest of the group have to suffer any sort of penalty for something that happens to ONE of the members through the normal course of using a class feature? Headbutt had its self-KO chance removed for a reason. Well, multiple reasons really, but having the rest of the group slow down because a tank is out cold for a few minutes is not something that sits well with most players. Having to hunt through a pack of aggro mobs for one arrow probably doesn't either.

It takes a lot of time spread out over multiple boots to acquire arrows. The only other class that has anything similar to this is rogues (and I guess antis to a lesser degree) with their poisons, but they don't have to worry about their poison dart frog suddenly hopping out of their hand and past three rooms of giants and poisons actually have a multitude of useful status effects.

What I originally said to Miax still applies here: Without fixes to the basic issues that affect the ranger class and ranged combat, any of this will just remain a toy with out much practical application.

next thought . instead of letting rangers enchant there own arrows why not just give arrows effects like.

you get my point... of corse there would be balancing and coding issues... but no less than the preveous idea.


Proc arrows like this were part of the finalized proposal Miax presented to us more than three years ago. Uh, they still hasn't been implemented obviously.

While some of the ideas presented certainly do have merit, they all put the cart before the horse. If we ever reach a point where ranged combat has had its basic problems in relation to damage and logistics taken care of, THEN all of this could be examined in a new light but as it stands it would just be something about as useful as tame mount.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:47 am

I'd just like to make a couple things clear about the log I posted.

1) I personally, and I don’t think even Amolol was for that matter, was never trying to imply or suggest a ranged weapon focus for rangers. That was absolutely not my intent. It appears that this belief manifested here on the BBS as a result of a misinterpretation due to absence of attendance. There is certainly no need to berate or attack anyone on this basis, because this simply was not being implied or suggested. I was talking about it as a simple bonus addition to the archery system, at least, that’s how I perceived the conversation.

2) I don't play a ranger, or a dire, and therefore cannot speak on such classes to suggest ways to reformat, or upgrade, or even make over the said class. Previously when I made an extensive melee upgrade proposal, I was similarly talking about the topic as a whole and how it would affect all applicable classes (hence all the updated hypothetical help files). Here I’m talking about archery/ranged combat and how it affects those classes who can use it. Not rangers. Not dires. Archery.

3) If you notice in the log at one point I asked folks to keep off ranger class discussion and get back on target with the ranged combat. Since rangers and dires are the only two classes that have it currently, I had to ask the appropriate parties. The overall intent here was not one of class suggestion, it was one more of skill/feature ignorance and a desire to understand it without having experienced it. You’ll notice I was doing a lot of question asking. If I don’t ask questions, I’m not going to understand the topic of conversation since I lack any experience with it. I also learn by making hypothetical scenarios to put things into perspective.

4) The title of this thread is Archery Idea discussion on GCC. Not Ranger Upgrades. Not Ranger talks. No Ranger nothing. No Dire nothing either. Archery. The end.

5) The conversation was not a shotgun conversation. It was a slow and gradual learning experience that transpired during a Saturday afternoon. Being on GCC, a public chat channel on the mud, anyone was free to chime in, even you if you had been on. Unfortunately once the conversation was put on this BBS, many folks are apparently desiring more to pull their guns out and start blazing away. I’d like to ask anyone that feels unable to talk about this aspect of the game code without giving in to their own personal issues and crusades, to instead post to the appropriate thread.
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=13876

6) For most of the conversation, you could easily substitute ‘dire raider’ for ‘ranger’ or vice versa, as in the context of what I was talking about they were synonymous. If it’s spells on arrows or poison on arrows, it was the same difference in order to understand the subject matter at hand.

7) The initial conversation starts out with a discussion about equipment, in terms of rate of fire, which was to come to a greater understanding of archery code.

8) The main reason I posted this log was for anyone else who was in similar shoes as I. That is, has never played with the archery system and wanted a further understanding of it and how it applied to those classes who can use it. I would sincerely appreciate the help of anyone who sees any misinterpretations, or inaccurate facts presented in the log, to please point them out with appropriate and informative data.
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Postby Waelos » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:57 am

Who's retired?

Waelos is dead or missing. . .

His half-sister however. . .

Weylarii is still around! Truth be told I log in every day and type 'news' just in the hopes that someone decided to do something with rangers. ;)

Ahh archery. Who can forget the glory of the hot pink GODLY damage message? Hawkeye! Yea, much like Treladian and others I was in love with Archery. I was twanging it up in crypts with Jarhead back when the elven bow was the best there was. Did as much as I could to support the archery project(s) in all of their incarnations. Now, after several years. . .I can finally say that it was not to be. The code is too complex, the problems too many, and in the end it is contrary to what the ranger always was.

As many have pointed out, with the bow in hand. . .we can't do much of anything. . . not to mention getting engaged accidently into melee by a dragon breath, or spell, or getting switch to. The problems with using archery are myriad and I think collectively we've done a heck of a job using it as is.

Frankly, getting archery to the point where it could be a class staple is going to be a huge project and as it is our coders are overworked and underpaid. ;)

I won't get into the whole rangers need help thing, that's dead and gone. What this is about is why archery isn't the answer. It is a great tool for luring, good for backup damage on a shielded mob when the single enchanter is overworked and fun for xp. . .but that is it. And so it should remain, in my opinion. Sure it would be nice to have the missile shield thing fixed. . .but perhaps it has become a rite of passage from regular rangerhood to zonable rangerhood to gather enough 3/3 arrows to make yourself useful in a zone? I've managed to gather 200 or so +3 or better arrows (thanks in part to good old Sylvos!) and It only took .. uh a few years ;) The good news is I've only lose about 30 (damn crashes). Wish I could have those 16 sandstorms back that I lost to Yan =P

Anyway, I've posted some of these ideas before for fixing archery but here goes:

Remove missile shield from game.

Make room to room archery 1 arrow only.

Make the lag to fire room to room 5 seconds but allow the ranger to execute other commands. (much like bash. If you bash, you have to reorient to bash again, but can do other things like rescue, flee, kick, etc. while re-aligning for bash).

All fixed.

Of course there are a bunch of more involved fixes but I would rather see our time and energies spent on fixing the class as a whole, rather than beating the dead horse of archery. . . but then again, fixing the ranger is already a pile of equine bones, isn't it?

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How Archery Works

Postby Waelos » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:41 am

Hello!

Just got to read Llad's last post so I thought I'd give my 2 cents worth here. Any specific questions can be directed to me in game, mmail or on the board. The following is archery as I have experienced it. I do not have access to any code, so these are all observationally based.

To use archery, a dire/ranger needs to have a quiver equipped and a bow wielded (most often 2hands! one bow did exist that was 1h once haha)

Archery is mostly skill based for hitting. At maximum, you can fire 3 arrows and hit 3 times in one round. I hit the same with +0 hit as I do with +35 hit. Enemy AC does not seem to matter. Stoneskin/Dragonskin does not matter either. An archer is as effective naked with a carved bow and carved arrows (as far as being able to hit) as a fully equipped one.

The damage seems to be more of a process, not a traditional hit.

Damage seems to be based mostly off of your damage roll (just as most combat is). I have heard rumors that arrows have a hidden 'dice' stat, but am not able to confirm or deny that. Damage is also skill based. I hypothsize (sorry I can't spell!) that damage is determined via some formula based on level + skill + damageroll vs Mob Level and Character level.

Archery at lower levels is pretty straight forward. You go buy a bow and travel to BG for a slew of deerskin quivers full of elven arrows.

To assist a tank with archery, you type 'afire [tankname]' Example:

Gormal stands here fighting Tiamat's Goat.
Tiamat's goat stands here fighting Gormal.
Tiamat's sheep stands here fighting Gormal.
Tiamat stands here fighting Gormal.

the command string [afire gormal] will have you start autofiring arrows at Tiamat's goat, as that is what Gormal is currently targeting.

You also have the option of 'afire [enemyname]' to target anything you wish. Example:

Gormal stands here fighting Tiamat's Goat.
Tiamat's goat stands here fighting Gormal.
Tiamat's sheep stands here fighting Gormal.
Tiamat stands here fighting Gormal.

The command [afire tiamat] will have you start autofiring against tiamat.
Since Gormal is tanking them all at the time, you will not be engaged.

Becoming Engaged: Any time you strike a mob that is not currently tanking another character with an arrow, that mob will charge you and FORCE you into melee combat whether it is intended, or a stray arrow.
Example:

Gormal stands here fighting Tiamat's goat.
Tiamat's goat stands here fighting Gormal.
Tiamat's shep stands here fighting Gormal.
Tiamat stands stands here fighting Gormal.
Bob the Builder stands here building a bridge.

The command [afire bob] will fire up to three arrows at bob, afterwhich you'll experience the following:

You hastily stop firing as Bob the Builder forces you into melee combat!

You cease all archery activities and you're now attacking with your bow (melee) against bob and you're taking damage!

This can also happen when a stray arrow flies and hits Bob the Builder. Please note that Bob the builder does not have to even be in the same room as you for the stray to fly wild and hit him. If that happens, and the mob tracks, he will come into your room to attack you. If the mob tracks and is otherwise also aggressive, it will likely attack the weakest party member in the room. Note: This seems to happen less nowadays.

Things to know about using archery in combat:

1) Characters have a chance to recognize if a spell being cast is offensive or not. If a character sees an offensive spell being cast, the game auto engages that character against the offending caster. neat trick, but no fun for archery.

If you're lagged, stunned or otherwise occupied before you can get that afire command in, a mob casting offense will engage your character in melee (with a bow, ugh!). At which point you need to figure out if it is safe to flee or retreat. . .or if you have to suffer through a disengage attempt. Disengage has a huge lag to it, and often before you can kick in that afire command again, you're back autoengaged on the mob again.

2) Dragonbreath. If a dragon breaths on you, you auto-engage. If a dragon wing buffets you. . .autoengage. Again, you're in the same sad boat as with offensive spells. often too lagged to get the arrows flying. Sometimes even if you're firing already a spell or dragonbreath will cause you to engage in melee instead.

3) If a mob switches to you in combat, you're engaged in melee

4) Engaging in melee accidentally over water and fumbling your bow hehe.

5) Rescuing a tank/caster as a last ditch and at the same time trying to switch back to melee weapons so you're not completely useless while fumbling for a vit potion ciz vit dropped and a haste potion because nobody hastes you cuz it doesn't help archery anyway. . .

6) remember to turn off aggressive!

7) archery works kneeling. So if you don't want to flee from dragonroar, kneel! (don't forget to stand later though!)


Things to know about Room To Room Archery (luring):

1) know your enemy. If it is a caster you need to have magic arrows. Otherwise the mobs take no damage and will not lure

2) hitting the right target (also, no strays)

3) Missile aware. . . once a mob is hit with arrows room to room, it becomes missile aware and is nearly impossible to strike again with a bow from a distance.

4) Know your terrain. Your arrows will sink, magical or not, in most cases. Also, many rooms are far too big for you to use a bow in .. (boggle). You might not be able to hit a target in the next room if the room is 100 feet or more (estimate).

5) Probe. Just because you can't see a target in the next room, doesn't mean there isn't a valid target 2 rooms away. be careful what you target. always look before you shoot. firing at 2.soldier when only 1 is east can cause you to hit a group 2 rooms away.

6)remember to collect your arrows!

7) No, you don't have time to fire a volley at 2.warg n if you already tagged 1.warg north and your group is west! the command lag will get you dead fast!

----------

I think that is all I can think of for archery 101. . .I am sure I'm missing something, and Trel, or Sylvos could probably add a lot. I just wanted to contribute something to the archery discussion.

As a foot note, I feel bad for dires. They're even more archery based than the ranger. I would rather see the dire more like a paladin who duals! Especially considering I don't even think they can use archery from mountback! =)

Anyway. . .let me know if you have any questions or want clarification on anything. I tried to be as helpful as I could.

The Lost
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Postby Treladian » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:57 am

Someday I SWEAR I'll finish writing that ranged combat for dummies guide I've had in my head for a while. Considering the lack of information we have, it wouldn't take too long.

Adding just a bit to what Wae said, the ranged engine really does stand apart from the normal melee combat engine in a lot of ways. Defensive skills aside from missile snare (*laugh*) are useless against it and it's so skill based that I can get back to combat the moment I'm mobile after a ress if I don't mind having a lot less HP than normal. While it is certainly neat to have something actually so skill based for combat, I've repeatedly pointed out that it's not really so good when a coder has to figure out the balance of something melee related (Note that actually rejoining the fights the moment you're mobile after a ress is not recommended. See Waelos's list of ways you can get easily forced into melee. It's more of something for those "Oh crap, someone nasty just wandered into the room we were ressing in" situations).

Also, once you're actually firing on a mob, a spell or breathe won't force you into melee anymore. Last time I checked, a wingbuffet will though. The ease with which you can get forced into melee is another thing that keeps ranged from being so useful, it's not something you can consistently use.
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:09 pm

Wow! Thanks Waelos! I can easily see now why no class would want to be archery based! I was cringing while reading your post about how it works.

Got a question tho! Wasn't exactly sure on something. If you're engaged with the mob and tanking you can't use archery right? But what if you aren't the tank and are engaged? Can you still use it then?

I'm wondering if archery is at all like certain mage spells that can't be casted in combat (like detect invis)?

Also, are there any dires out there that would like to let us know if you can use archery while mounted?
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Postby Waelos » Mon Aug 09, 2004 3:48 pm

Llaad -

Do you mean something like a switch targets for archery? You can't switch targets with archery. . . you have to either disengage or cease fire (an actual command) and target another mob =)

If you're engaged in any sort of melee you can't use archery unless you disengage, flee and come back, or retreat and come back.

Hope that helps =)

Lost
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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Aug 09, 2004 4:45 pm

Well no I didn't mean a switch, but that is very interesting to learn tho. I wasn't aware you couldn't switch with archery either.

I just meant, say Gormal is fighting a bunch of mobs. You afire gormal. One of the mobs is a mage and casts cloud. It engages you, but you're not tanking. Does this stop archery?
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Postby Sylvos » Mon Aug 09, 2004 5:01 pm

Once autofire is engaged, areas won't kick you out of archery. However, mobs seem to like to try hitall's sometimes and even a missed hitall attack will knock you out of the firing loop.

The inflexibility you're under with archery is the second largest reason not to use it. The two round delay from shifting out of a melee to ranged combat style is unnecessary imho.

Archery is handled via a 2handed weapon, so if Dires are allowed to reach a 75 skill in mounted combat, they'd be able to use archery while mounted. Rangers have a spiffy 20 or 25 cap (one of the skills I never bothered to work on).

Archery CANNOT be used room to room on a fireplane flagged area. Any and all arrows that I have seen are 'consumed in flames' when they leave the room you are in. This applies to misses that go winging out of the room as well.

Broken arrows are irritating, but the better arrows break infrequently. The trollbark arrows also show a (magic) flag on them even after breaking, which helps differentiate them from regular broken arrows. Repairing a busted arrow costs 1 or 2 plat (I think 2) which is a worthy investment if you've gotten good arrows. Trollbarks are 50plat apiece new, others are limited load throughout a boot.

There are 5 sources for +3 or better hit arrows in the game. One costs money, the others are a very limited load rate. You need at least +2 hit arrows to damage a dragon with archery, and at least +3 to stand a chance to sunder missile shield.

You can successfully target lure up to two rooms away. Arrows will in general be able to travel for three rooms, but you can't target that far off. As Wey said, some areas are too large to shoot room to room. When firing room to room, if you miss your target and the arrow flies on, there is a greater chance of breakage if the arrow hits a 'wall', i.e. cannot travel the full three rooms.

Misfired arrows that strike players will be on the ground. Misfired arrows that hit a pet or mob will be in their inventory. Watch your shots, and ask pet owners to have their pets drop all.arrow periodically.

When luring, often enough 1/3 arrows will misfire. WHen this happens, sometimes the mob is not successfully lured/missile aware. Generally if you miss 1/3 shots on a mob, make another volley. If you get some wild shots on the second attempt, the mob has been lured from the first volley. You CAN choose to just wait to see if the mob will track as well, but be warned that sometimes, sticking a couple arrows in a mob don't piss it off enough for it to give chase.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Aug 11, 2004 2:10 am

Llaaldara wrote:I'd just like to make a couple things clear about the log I posted.

4) The title of this thread is Archery Idea discussion on GCC. Not Ranger Upgrades. Not Ranger talks. No Ranger nothing. No Dire nothing either. Archery. The end.


Now, if i do remember right (and i just looked it up so i do...)
Your heading on this thread started like this:
Llaaldara wrote:For those who weren't there and wanted to know what was said. There are two ideas discussed here. The main one, and majority of the log is about rangers adding enchantments (possibly dires adding poisons) to carved ranger/dire arrows while in appropriate landscapes. Some other ideas were discussed as well. The other idea presented, starts the conversation out about the possibility of quivers that replenish arrows, and how this could handled realistically to not be overbalancing.


So, now you see why, perhaps, people drifted away from just archery?
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Aug 11, 2004 5:17 am

Del, the arguments that arose within this thread were based on the log and what was discussed within it. Not my very brief summary at the top. People quoted and argued with the log, not my summary.
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Postby kiryan » Wed Aug 11, 2004 10:07 pm

archery needs to sacrifice some realism for some usability.

the arrows getting stuck in pet, player, and mob inventories is cool but annoying especially considering crashes.

archery having distance limits (usually when luring this is a factor) is cool but annoying.

archery missing your target and hitting someone else in the same room or another room is cool, but annoying

missile shield is cool but annoying given the problem with maintaining a supply of good arrows and that cracking arrows on a mobs shield does not agro them.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!

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