Make enlarge/reduce aggro spells

[oteb]

Right now I think enlarge and reduce is a bit too powerful tool for players. With it you can get whole group to be !bash and it works in almost all zones (except seelie). It makes some fights just too easy.

What I would like to see is making both enlarge and reduce a targeted offensive spell. It would take some more skill to pick right target for either of spells to make a mob out of size to bash you or of right size to be bashed. That solution would make a couple fights more chellenging and exciting.

Besides its quite silly to watch a group of 15ppl reduced to 15 inches charge a squad of demons.
Hmm or maybe instead make reduced ppl take more damge from melee. since 15'' person would just get stomped by any bigger mob. Or make kick bash miniature ppl.


My 2 copper

[Ashod]

great idea oteb!

[Delmair Aamoren]

Realistically though, if you can cast it at a mob, why not at a player? I
think the idea between spells being aggro or not is that usually one
wouldn't want an aggressive spell cast at them (ie blindness) as it is
a hinderance. With consent, there should be no reason why ANY spell
shouldn't be castable at the target, without aggro kicking in. After all,
they have your CONSENT (permission in this case). As far as it being
too powerful, you are probbably right. But if this is the case, why not
just remove the spell entirely?

[oteb]

If you want to be 'realistic' in fantasy game about spells we can just assume that process of shrinking or enlarging is extremly painful an thus cant be cast on fellow adventurer.
And its better to change the spell to be useful and yet not overpowered than removing it alltogather

[zezi]

I'd suggest making it more race depent. It's silly that a human,elf, halfling all end up the same size when the halfling started out half the height or less. Turn elfs/humans the size and gnomes/halflings and halflings/gnomes to whatever size it goes to now and a large portion of your group is now bash resistent but nolonger !bash 100% of the time.

zezi the halfling jester

[Delmair Aamoren]

If you want to be 'realistic' in fantasy game about spells we can just assume that process of shrinking or enlarging is extremly painful an thus cant be cast on fellow adventurer.
And its better to change the spell to be useful and yet not overpowered than removing it alltogather

On the first part, regarding "realistic" if you have consent, even if it is
"painful" or whatever, they still had consent to do it. hell i remember
back in the day where you could use spells on yourself. or cast burning
hands or fireball on your elemental to heal it. As far as changing it to
useful and not overpowered, i can't see a happy medium.

[Demuladon]

A couple of possible problems with this:
-7th circle enchanter spellslots would need to be filled with reduce or enlarge to handle multiple targets and spell failures
-the enchanter would be reducing/enlarging during combat instead of scaler/stoning?

[teflor the ranger]

Oteb is 100% correct about reduce/enlarge being too powerful.

I would suggest as a solution, a bit more of a moderate solution. Simply make the spell scale with skill.

For example,

A lower level enchanter casting reduce upon a human would make the human elven size.

A higher level enchanter casting reduce upon a human would make the human the size of a dwarf.

A master enchanter casting reduce upon a human would make the human the size of a squirrel.

And for those who don't understand the idea yet,

A lower level encahnter casting enlarge upon a human would make the human barbarian size.

A higher level enchanter casting enlarge upon a human would make the human ogre size.

A master enchanter casting enlarge upon a human would make the human giant size.

At least this way, at least the most powerful affects of the spells are limited to only to level 50 enchanters who have mastered their spellcraft skills.

[Sservis]

I'd be happy to support this if the !bash flag went away on mobs. Until it does, I consider reduce/enlarge a bit of parity.

[Artmar]

Making the kick bash (or stun) with enough size difference would also increase usefullness of that warrior skill. After all, If anything human-sized (or bigger) were to kick a squirrel , that squirrel would certainly be sent flying (though no, i don't propose Duris-like kicking out of room - even if it's been funny on occasions, esp. followed by a death scream/left the group combo)

[oteb]

Sservis
Right now only material mobs I can think of that are really !bash are dragons and it should stay that way. All giants, demons etc are bashable you just need a basher of approperiate size (treant, earth ellie).

Teflor
It already does scale with level tho not as much as you propose. The problem is that while zoning when you really need enlarge/reduce you have a chanter with you that can make everyone no bash (sometimes a little help from eq is needed)

Demuladon
Yeah chanter would have to pick if he wants to prism or pwb or try to change size of opponenets. And as for not scaling/stoning well chanters dont cast non stop in combat. Besides having to do other stuff in combat they would be foced to pick 1-2 most troublesome targets instead of shrinking a whole scorp squad to a size a hafling toddler

[oteb]

Example of how it would work:
Lets say you are on Ak'khnet fight in spob
Instead of chanter sitting out of fight and just scaling/bluring tanks and reducing ppl he would have to charge with group and pick 1-2 targets that are bashers in group. Effect is about the same just isnt fool proof and is a bit more exciting. Will a group survive long enough with mobs bashing while chanter tries to land reduce? Berserker has high mr some illusionist has to flux it before reduce. More cooperation, less ppl sitting bored out of fight, more risk.

[Delmair Aamoren]

Hell, if you are so intent on keeping this spell, make it like embody
for elementalists. You can only have one reduce/enlarge affecting a PC
at any given time. And as far as using it on other mobs, sure, make it
an aggressive spell, but make the failure rate incredibly high.

[oteb]

Why incredibly high? After change i am proposing it would be MUCH less powerful than it is now. Right now you can affect whole group without any risk of failure. After change you can just affect 1 maybe 2 mobs at most before fight is over.
And making it like embody would be no different that removing the spell. Since very rarely you need just one person to be small/large (bashing some ogres comes to my mind). Its mainly spell that saves casters from bashes. It would still do that after the change but with much lesser efficency.

[kiryan]

I aggree with oteb, reduce and enlarge to a much lesser degree are very very powerful of a spells. There is no penalty really for being 15 inches tall in particular and I think that is insane for being able to selectively render members of your group !bash. I'e always liked the idea of taking extra damage for size differential between you and your opponent, I don't know how the magic works, just gettinghit by a giant with a club while your 15 inches tall has got to suck more than when your 7 feet tall. Seems like you'd be driven into the ground like a nail in a board, but thats just me. To borrow a skill from a mud, i heard about something like a wall kick which basically made a kick into a bash if a certain size differential was met.

However as powerful as reduce is in paticular, we are building on years upon years of this being factored in when people design zones. It would be disastorous to certain zones for reduce and elnargeto be eliminated, 1 spell out fights would take an immediate dive in popularity especially in spob. I want to see more fights where reduce does not completely eliminate all chance of dieing. Really the best measure of skill these days seems to be if you know when to flee to avoid dieing.

I don't know about making it an offensive spell... I think its a neat idea, but being able to reduce mobs to bashable size would be granting more power to players rather than less. The idea that mobs would spend time reducing/enlarging you so they could bash you is also a bit far fetched considering that fights focus on damage. mobs do so much damage that they would more easily kill you by simply casting damage. If the average zone fight took 100 rounds to complete i might see a mob spending 4 rounds trying to soften up a particularly juicy target, but with the ubiquitiousness of 1 spell out fights and fights that are kill at least half the mobs within 20 rounds or die, I just don't see how it would add anything to the mobs arsenal.

Furthermore, I could not support burdening or empowering enchanters further with making this spell more useful unless at least one other class had access to a reduce/enlarge comboniation.

[oteb]

However as powerful as reduce is in paticular, we are building on years upon years of this being factored in when people design zones. It would be disastorous to certain zones for reduce and elnargeto be eliminated, 1 spell out fights would take an immediate dive in popularity especially in spob.

All it would do is that it would add chanter to spell run so bashing mobs are reduced

I don't know about making it an offensive spell... I think its a neat idea, but being able to reduce mobs to bashable size would be granting more power to players rather than less. The idea that mobs would spend time reducing/enlarging you so they could bash you is also a bit far fetched considering that fights focus on damage. mobs do so much damage that they would more easily kill you by simply casting damage. If the average zone fight took 100 rounds to complete i might see a mob spending 4 rounds trying to soften up a particularly juicy target, but with the ubiquitiousness of 1 spell out fights and fights that are kill at least half the mobs within 20 rounds or die, I just don't see how it would add anything to the mobs arsenal.

I dont intednt to add anything to players. Eg right now if a mob is bashable by enlarged ogre it would be bashable by that ogre when reduced . Or if player is !bash when reduced it would be no bash if chanter lands enlarge on mob

Furthermore, I could not support burdening or empowering enchanters further with making this spell more useful unless at least one other class had access to a reduce/enlarge comboniation

Right now main burden on chanters is before the fight making spell up long an painful. This propostion will reduce spell up time and shift some of that time to actuall fight, especially the begining where chanter sits bored wiating for first scales to drop

[Demuladon]

Sounds like it could be fun.. there would certainly be alot more spanks.

How long do you envision the reduce/enlarge effects lasting on a mob?

ie. I could imagine some fights would be undoable until the enchanter/warriors had "one-enlarge then out" most of the mobs in the fight (thinking ruling chamber in scorps).

[oteb]

I am thinking something like 5 minutes.
And as for ruling chamber of scoprs that wont cut it. King tracks you know;)

[kiryan]

>Right now main burden on chanters is before the fight making spell up long an painful. This propostion will reduce spell up time and shift some of that time to actuall fight, especially the begining where chanter sits bored wiating for first scales to drop

How would this reduce spellup time? unless it was instant cast and no fail seems like 99% of the time you'd still be reducing pre-fight.... its not like we reduce in a fight against 1 or 2 bashers, its when there are 5 or 6 or 10 bashers that you reduce....

also, you cast 15 reduces every 20-25 minutes? vs casting it half a dozen to a dozen times per major fight?


>I dont intednt to add anything to players. Eg right now if a mob is bashable by enlarged ogre it would be bashable by that ogre when reduced . Or if player is !bash when reduced it would be no bash if chanter lands enlarge on mob

If you give players new tools you increase their power if nothing else simply in terms of flexibility.

-----------

it just now occurs to me that you may be suggesting that enlarge/reduce no longer work on players and just be an offensive spell...

I think that even as nasty and boring as the reduce, dscale all spellups are it would be far preferable to having your enchanter trying to do scales and offensive during combat. Changing this spell could easily cause a shift in group dynamics to requiring 2 enchanters or at least getting some help with stones from aux classes. I just dont know if thats a good thing. There are fights that would become nigh impossible. BC gatehouse is like 25 shrugging mobs.... thats 25 mobs that need reduced... thats almost 2 bashers to every one player.... Gonna have to do reduce runs before you do spell runs?

[Lenefir]

(Since I know you went on vacation I'll respond;)

enlarge and reduce is a bit too powerful tool for players. With it you can get whole group to be !bash and it works in almost all zones

I never have reduced more than at max 5 or 6 people in a group, even when zone leader says that people should get reduce. First you need the consent of all people, some you may miss, and some won't consent you because they missed that gsay, or they don't want to get reduced. Your load changes, your AC might change, and you DO seem to get hit harder by the same mobs when reduced than when you are normal size (might be my imagination though).

Right now main burden on chanters is before the fight making spell up long an painful. This propostion will reduce spell up time and shift some of that time to actuall fight, especially the begining where chanter sits bored wiating for first scales to drop

My personal view on that matter: It's not the spellup that is painful, it's the memming after it :P And since I'm mostly just casting reduce on myself and perhaps one or (in rare cases) two other people, and that reduce last long enough for me to forget I'm reduced until the next time I get bashed, it's not exactly a spell I am overworked on casting. As for not doing much/anything during the first time of a fight (my personal opinions):

- Prismatic Spray might remove silence, blindness and whatnot, but when that doesn't matter: Ooohh, the (spamming) joy!
- Power Word Blind rarely are worth casting because it's usually too hard to land to be worth the time-effort.
- Sometimes you have PWB memmed when prism would be nice, and vice versa
- Breach doesn't work on all mobs, and not all mobs have spells up. Besides, spelling of mob names were too hard (until breach would target the mob you were fighting)
- Constriction, sure, always nice, but you only have at max 5 of them, they do mediocre damage (compared to other classes), and it makes your memming time longer.
- Blacklight Burst and/or Major Para. All those spots are usually filled with globes.
- Feeblemind: See Power Word Blind. Also, a silence work instantly.

If the fight is big, mobs hit hard, and/or spells are not in sync, then spells do drop at the most unconvinent time, so in my opinion always better to wait a little to see if the tanks need anything after the initial engagement, and always good to avoid aggroing the wrong mob.

But to answer on your original suggestion... the d&d reduce and enlarge can be casted both as an offensive and defensive spell. (And don't we have enough gnomes already to not give them another reason to be a prefered caster class? ;)

[Lenefir]

Doh! Of course, when I rambled away, I forgot to write one of my first thoughts I got upon reading this... Anyway...

If enchanters suddenly were expected to charge in along with tanks and damage dealers, and we no longer had any protection against being bashed until successful casting on all the bashing mobs, I really hope the enchanter exp tables would be changed :P You know, unlike invokers that charge in, enchanters don't have the luxury of getting that much damage exp :P

(And if it wasn't obvious: I might be selfish, but no, don't like the idea of removing the ability to cast reduce/enlarge on players :P)

[Dalar]

I agree with Oteb's making reduce/enlarge an offensive spell. Why? Instead of reducing 15 people I'd rather enlargen one. There, now we're !bash again. Homeland did this and we abused it SO bad.

[Sarell]

I can think of countless fights where you could stack up one of a group of mobs members with rafts then reduce them. This could be a problem.

[oteb]

I agree with Oteb's making reduce/enlarge an offensive spell. Why? Instead of reducing 15 people I'd rather enlargen one. There, now we're !bash again. Homeland did this and we abused it SO bad.

I dont think we ever reduce group for one basher. Its an issue if tyhere are 4+ bashers in room. Enlarging just one of them wont change the fight that much.

If enchanters suddenly were expected to charge in along with tanks and damage dealers, and we no longer had any protection against being bashed until successful casting on all the bashing mobs, I really hope the enchanter exp tables would be changed :P You know, unlike invokers that charge in, enchanters don't have the luxury of getting that much damage exp :P

I wish ppl stopped talking about voker damage exp. We get jack shit. Voker damage exp was reduce to almost nill. Unlike my lich who gets a notch each fight he casts rot my I have yet to see my voker getting a notch from inferno.
I did some tests quite some time ago. An enchanter who kills a shady smuggler at level 1 (doing all the damage) ends up at level 2.5. A voker who does it ends up at 1.4 irrc.

[Sesexe]

I wish ppl stopped talking about voker damage exp. We get jack shit. Voker damage exp was reduce to almost nill. Unlike my lich who gets a notch each fight he casts rot my I have yet to see my voker getting a notch from inferno.

Very true. My voker almost never notchces in zones anymore despite usually being the only invoker. Lich does all the time regardless of the situation.

Sorry, but I haven't read most the posts in this thread. I don't believe reduce should be offensive. Did anyone suggest that perhaps when reduced, a casters spells are reduced in power by half?

Way I see it. You could half full power but be bashable, or be unbashable but at half strength.

*shrug*

[Arilin Nydelahar]

I wish ppl stopped talking about voker damage exp. We get jack shit. Voker damage exp was reduce to almost nill. Unlike my lich who gets a notch each fight he casts rot my I have yet to see my voker getting a notch from inferno.

Very true. My voker almost never notchces in zones anymore despite usually being the only invoker. Lich does all the time regardless of the situation.

Sorry, but I haven't read most the posts in this thread. I don't believe reduce should be offensive. Did anyone suggest that perhaps when reduced, a casters spells are reduced in power by half?

Way I see it. You could half full power but be bashable, or be unbashable but at half strength.

*shrug*

Why on earth should a characters power be on scale with their size? To coin a phrase, it's not the size that matters. The power is taken directly from the individuals ability and skill. Size should have nothing to do with it, at all.

[Sesexe]

I wish ppl stopped talking about voker damage exp. We get jack shit. Voker damage exp was reduce to almost nill. Unlike my lich who gets a notch each fight he casts rot my I have yet to see my voker getting a notch from inferno.

Very true. My voker almost never notchces in zones anymore despite usually being the only invoker. Lich does all the time regardless of the situation.

Sorry, but I haven't read most the posts in this thread. I don't believe reduce should be offensive. Did anyone suggest that perhaps when reduced, a casters spells are reduced in power by half?

Way I see it. You could half full power but be bashable, or be unbashable but at half strength.

*shrug*

Why on earth should a characters power be on scale with their size? To coin a phrase, it's not the size that matters. The power is taken directly from the individuals ability and skill. Size should have nothing to do with it, at all.

Thinking about balance and bringing down spell power in general.

[Yasden]

Pray tell, how would you do some of these big fights if people in the group (especially tanks) weren't reduced? Warriors go down faster than Klosh at a gay bar in big multi-mob fights if they get bashed on entry. Ask any tank what happens to them in 2nd gate jot during invasion if they're not. Take a look at the big portal entry room of Izan's.

I think the real issue is that most zones *require* reduce anymore, and we're simply using it to our advantage. I think it's stupid that a 20' giant can bash an ogre (yes, an ogre) that's half its height and probably 1/20th the weight. I think it's stupid that tanar'ri/baatezu are fatass blobs, when in reality *MOST* are not. Zones have taken away the bash skill from us, given it to the npc's, and we have to counter it somehow. It's called adaptation.

I don't think the problem is with reduce/enlarge, I think it's with the whole warrior AI on mobs (bash on entry, mobs bashing then casting spells immediately, etc). Maybe the height/weight on giants, demons, and devils could be reviewed in the race flag code. I know the size is based on level, but I do know from experience in AD&D that most of the latter two are usually no more than 12' high, (nalfeshnees, glabrezus, retrievers, and bebiliths being the only exceptions) some are even bashable by non-enlarged halflings (imps, quasits, dretches, abyssal skulkers, and jovocs).

So, give us the ability to bash demons/devils, up their MR/hps/summon rate if you want to counter this (dead serious on this, btw), remove giant bashing abilities altogether (unless a player is enlarged/embodied for disarm purposes), and we won't use reduce so much.

Also, the concept of using kick to bash a similar-sized (slightly smaller/larger...see old headbutt height restrictions, maybe +/- 200 lb range on weight) opponent warrants a valid looking-at, as well.

Deathmagnet

[Hyldryn]

I get bashed left and right in big zone fights. Meh, 2 rounds of lag, no beat down. Who cares?

[Yasden]

I said on entry. Not during the duration of the fight when there's at least 1 other tank sharing the duties. Generally (not always) on entry, mobs go after 1 tank. If that tank is bashed, displace falls before the end of the first round, dscales/blur the next. By the end of the next round, you're close to dead or dead if the mobs are bigger mobs and land hella crits (golems/giants in particular). I'm sure you know what I'm talking about Hyldryn. Besides...don't you play a gnome? :P

[Hyldryn]

I know that they bash on entry, but unless the warrior totally sucks, its not as bad as you make it sound.

[Yasden]

It's happened to me on more occasions than I care to admit...must be the whole racial height/weight thing, I guess. 2nd gate Jot invasion is a good example...if I go in there while not reduced, it's a high risk of death before clerics can land the standard fheal on entry. Happened to me in TTF on the arms fight a couple weeks ago, too. Also, Gura got owned in 1 round on the first big fight room of Izan's when we attempted it last week.

Again, it must be because you play a gnome and don't have to worry about that stuff vs. giants/demons etc. >:)

[Hyldryn]

Giants can bash us? Hah! Who knew.

[Sservis]

It's happened to me on more occasions than I care to admit...must be the whole racial height/weight thing, I guess. 2nd gate Jot invasion is a good example...if I go in there while not reduced, it's a high risk of death before clerics can land the standard fheal on entry. Happened to me in TTF on the arms fight a couple weeks ago, too. Also, Gura got owned in 1 round on the first big fight room of Izan's when we attempted it last week.


Again, it must be because you play a gnome and don't have to worry about that stuff vs. giants/demons etc. >:)

did some checking with Uta vs the auctioneer [assuming human standard mob]. The mob varied beween smaller and much larcher depending on if I used reduce/enlarge. As we know, neither of these considers are !bash. It's impossible to make a troll !bash vs human mobs. Entry to Izan's is quite crappy for troll tanks b/c of this. They WILL be bashed regardless of spells.

note: embody changes this, but how many tanks, how many embodies, how many elementalists in the group?

[Lilithelle]

I don't recall ever reducing tanks anywhere except the ak'nthet fight in SPOB, hasn't caused a problem in izan's yet. Not sure why trolls are getting owned. The bash rate on casters is mostly ok, I almost never get reduced when zoning. I only tell the group to get reduced/enlarged for the final fight in seelie/spob. I studied a log of izan's, they would bash one of the tanks on entry but during the fight they used bash very little and mostly used shieldpunch which as far as i know is not affected by enlarge/reduce. One time when we were doing throne room fight in seelie i called out and everyone except hildibble managed to flee, there were 8 mobs alive and fighting in the room, king, emissary and 6 guards. Hildibble was tanking them all after everyone fled, he got bashed 3 times in a row before he finally managed to flee out. No one was spelling him up during this time or healing him. He lived, why do your tanks suck so badly?
Lilithelle

[Yasden]

I think it's more because either:

1. A majority of the mobs were sunray/pris blind, and most likely not engaged on him, or never engaged after their tank fled (be it a mage, whatever). Even if they were all on him, even a few of them being blind increases survival rate tremendously.

or

2. He was fully healed/spelled shortly before you called out, or was never tanking that many mobs upon entry, thus keeping his spells relatively fresh.

*or*

3. He was quaffing potions (trigger maybe).

Don't make claims of 9 rounds of being on the ground and surviving in a fight like that without a log, please. Not that I'm calling you a liar, but from 9 years of playing warrior, I don't buy that. Even though Hildibble is by far one of the best goodrace tanks I've ever had the pleasure of grouping with. :P

Deathmagnet

P.S. The reason why trolls get owned is because they're roughly 7', and despite them being gangly (300ish lbs), for some reason giants and summoning mobs can bash them. Thus my suggestion for looking at height/weight checks on bash code, instead of tweaking a spell that seems perfectly fine.

[Crumar]

I don't recall ever reducing tanks anywhere except the ak'nthet fight in SPOB, hasn't caused a problem in izan's yet. Not sure why trolls are getting owned. The bash rate on casters is mostly ok, I almost never get reduced when zoning. I only tell the group to get reduced/enlarged for the final fight in seelie/spob. I studied a log of izan's, they would bash one of the tanks on entry but during the fight they used bash very little and mostly used shieldpunch which as far as i know is not affected by enlarge/reduce. One time when we were doing throne room fight in seelie i called out and everyone except hildibble managed to flee, there were 8 mobs alive and fighting in the room, king, emissary and 6 guards. Hildibble was tanking them all after everyone fled, he got bashed 3 times in a row before he finally managed to flee out. No one was spelling him up during this time or healing him. He lived, why do your tanks suck so badly?
Lilithelle

You keep bringing this up I was there that day so I will attest to this occurring. But you should not use this as a bench mark for all warriors. He was spelt as tanks fled for one, then everyone fled and he got bashed. When he stood second round he got bashed by then most mobs are on him thats 3 rounds that he is in there alone. At this point he is losing his spells and getting hurt, probably typing flee. He gets bashed again and is now taking damage from all mobs. At this point he is either quaffing potions or his gnome agility is kicking in either way he is down to the wire on surviving. After about 8 rounds or so he flees out. He is one of the best equiped warriors in game if not the best equiped because he goes for pure AC/HP eq and thats how all warriors should play imho.

This is why a lot of warriors end up dying in those big fights because they dont dress to tank they dress to tank and be hitters. Hildibble is a special case we can't compare him to the average warrior. In my opinion all warriors should dress to max AC then HP to be the best tank and either play a class with high agility modifier like a elf or gnome and yes even trolls because they do have this bonus I am told.

So on the point of reduce and enlarge it should stay as is because most tanks don't get a reduce or enlarge and when they do its only at end fights anyway. As for casters if they are getting bashed non stop and the spell is made hard to hit mobs then all your gonna see is a trend of people rolling up gnomes or whatever small class will suit a caster and then have them wear reduce equipment anyway. People will find way's around this issue and make it a non issue. Yeah they will lose hp on ring slot for instance but hey they can flee out and cast which is more important?

[Vahok]

In my opinion all warriors should dress to max AC then HP to be the best tank and either play a class with high agility modifier like a elf or gnome and yes even trolls because they do have this bonus I am told

Of course, this irks me to no end. I mean, why in the hell do the weakest (str,con) races get to be the best tanks? Basically, the only choice for goodie classes should be elf and gnome since they are the best choice for casters and tanks. A little off topic but really...am I the only one that finds this to be a little stupid? The best warrior is a weak, frail little elf who wears nothing but caster eq. Shrug, maybe I'm way off in thinking a strong and hardy race should be the best warrior.

[Yasden]

Because AC is based off agility....which, ironically, I don't believe should be given a racial modifier. It should be a set number based on class, not race. Not to mention str/con are almost worthless, skillwise for a warrior.

So yeah....it's a little ass backwards, Vahok. :P

Thanks for clarifying that for me, Crumar. And yes, using Hildibble as a bench for goodrace warriors is just as bad as using Gura for evilrace.

Anyway, I hope this made the point that reduce/enlarge isn't the problem, bash is. :P

Deathmagnet

[Tasan]

Does anyone remember when XXX was the one who prompted Kia to change mobs to bash on entry? Anyone remember when that change actually happened?

Anyhow, something is messed up w/ reduce right now anyhow. We saw this tonight, and it pretty much didn't get cast after we realized it wasn't working right.

!!x