Melee and Group Experience

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kwirl
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Melee and Group Experience

Postby kwirl » Thu Sep 02, 2004 8:11 pm

Increase bonuses and reduce trophy for larger groups, encouraging more grouping among lower level players and less of the 'me and my equipment are a full group, you slow us down' attitude towards new players. Increase the amount of experience awarded for melee combat to offset the horrible suffering of what they see spells do.
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Postby Vahok » Thu Sep 02, 2004 10:38 pm

Yeah, it is sad but true. Older players seem to exp in small (2-3) groups because exping is sooooooo slooooooooow in larger groups. I'd be for anything that would help true newbies get into groups. Another plus would be the fact true newbies would get some mudding experience from the more experienced players with alts.

So, two thumbs up!
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Postby Sarell » Fri Sep 03, 2004 5:42 am

Agree on the group exp thing.

but.. 'Increase the amount of experience awarded for melee combat to offset the horrible suffering of what they see spells do."... boggle?!?!?!!? even my warrior with damroll of ... well he doesn't have a damroll, gets more exp than any caster already.

Remove all exp from skills. Kill exp only! Balance the exp on tables, that's why they are there and different anyow isn't it?

PS....

..Upgrade trophy downgrade tables :)
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Fri Sep 03, 2004 7:11 am

Sarell, I've seen a lvl 15 elementalist outdamage a lvl 27 tank with 30/20, 49 cleric and 47 ench with cleric and ench on full nuke mode.
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Postby Nekelet » Fri Sep 03, 2004 8:11 am

Xisiqomelir wrote:Sarell, I've seen a lvl 15 elementalist outdamage a lvl 27 tank with 30/20, 49 cleric and 47 ench with cleric and ench on full nuke mode.

Dude, where'd you get those 'shrooms?
Outnuke with what, his earth darts? seemed to me 2nd and 3rd circle were kindof a waste at that level due to their sick mem times.
But back to the point, please tell me '15' should be '50'...?

And back to the point of the thread, *boggle* for upgrading melee xp - Hitters are already very easy to XP at low levels, and get comparatively fast xp towards the top end as well. Seems to me theres a huge difference between 'stab it' dmg, and 'nuke it' dmg. @ identical levels, a rogue that might follow me around might get 3-4% a kill with somewhere around 70?% coming from dmg. Yet if I solo the mob myself doing every bit of the dmg (crappy air that can't hit) I get 1-2% max for the entire kill as opposed to the hitters 3 or 4 sharing the kill.

So - I'd very much disagree with the upgrading melee portion. However I'd certainly like to see something like the larger group bonuses discussed here and elsewhere.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Sep 03, 2004 3:47 pm

large group exp needs to be brought up to at least the same level as solo/small group exp. Large groups take more time to form and organize and the exp (transportation + replacements), are more susceptible to disruption by competition with another group (run out of mobs to kill), and result in less exp per hour on average.

What I would look at...

Do bonuses take into account the difficulty in organizing large groups, you have more down time from quickie afk, gotta go/replace, and transportation. For this reason large group exp needs to be better than small group or solo exp to compensate over a 3-5 hour exp stint. Group exp is much less consistent over a long period of time than solo exp because you have to rely on other people. IF you compare peak group exp with peak solo maybe its similar, i doubt it, but when you compare it over 3, 5, 10 hours solo exp will be much more consistent. For something as long an arduous as exp, consistency is king.

The requirements for getting stone/heal exp... Do you have to be in the room (mem out is the standard for exp), do you have to be visible to the mob? Do you have to be engaged? The days of memming after every mob in exp are long gone.... The current model is melee stays in, all casters mem out, defensive casters don't engage and sometimes even maintain invisibility, exp is non stop.

Are you sure the leveling rates are as expected... some classes only get kill exp, some classes get kill and damage exp. Damage exp is not affected by trophy further increasing the difference.

Is there a level differential bonus? Does a level 30 char killing a level 35 mob get a bonus for being 5 levels lower? Do 2 level 20 chars killing the same 35 mob get a 5 level penalty because their combined level is 40 or do they get a 15 level bonus? Two level 20's have a much harder time killing a level 35 mob.

Do the bonuses apply or not apply correctly? Has anyone verified it?

Finally, large group exp may not be as broken as we think. It may perhaps be soley a matter of a couple classes exceeding the curve... The most common example is the leveling rate of clerics and enchanters solo vs grouped...

at 49 per hour
8-16% solo/small group
4-8% grouped

If solo exp was slower for these classes, group exp would become more popular. Maybe solo vs group exp should be charted for each class and graphed... Then consider bringing some aspects up or down depending where the land on the curve of actual vs design. Enc solo exp might be right where the want it and group exp low suggesting that enc in gruop exp be brought up... or enc solo exp could be way above where you want it and be corrected downward making group exp more attractive.

Just some thoughts, I've exp'd a lot as many different classes.
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Postby Silsaterur » Fri Sep 03, 2004 6:43 pm

I've played a few of the classes to at least level 25 recently and upto that point every class has it's own curve to it.

Chanter, OMG slow slower and god please help me slow compared to the others I tried. Pretty consistently slow at low levels due to lack of strong offence. Sporting magic missile and that's about it because the others aren't worth the mem time. Then when you get haste it's a little easier to deal with as rogues, clerics and warrior-types will now tank for you. Then when you get stoneskin it's just a matter of sitting back and enjoying the ride, slowly mind you.

Invoker, I found that with the invoker you need to be grouped unless you have really swank eq. More of a tag along exp leech, you can't tank worth squat ever and your so squishy that a few bad rounds or a crit can leave you bleeding on the floor. Once you get ray of enfeeblement you become less of a leech to the rest of the group.

Paladin, One of the freakin easiest classes to speed solo with crap eq as. Armor lets you tank harder stuff with a 2h sword(if you can get your hands on one) and the exp bonus for evil mobs make it even better. Once you can mount up, exp gets slightly easier as now your hiding behind flankblock and your higher AC due to the necessity of sword/shield.

Ranger. Sorry, I never could bring myself to play one.

Rogue, I kinda cheated on this one and did the whole major para/backstab plevel with a high level chanter. Hit level 20 to get off the island in just under 12 hours(mostly spent between levels 1-6). Now that I have some swank eq I've been able to hit & run mobs that would wreck my warrior. In the 20's I could usually hammer out about 1level/hour solo and just about as fast in a group because circle/haste helped me whore up the damage.

Warrrior, The single most consistant class to exp as, chop chop chop, heal heal heal... When soloing I pretty much kill until I am low on hp, rest in a fast heal room, get a drink, watch some tv, then come back to chop some more. Little slower than paladin because of the no exp bonus and no lay on hands, but armor potions keep you competative, plus you have a lot more staying power in hp. (My naked dwarf war had more hp than my naked level 47 paladin at when he hit 28)

gonna have to finish this later, gotta go home, still need to write about elementalist/cleric.
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Postby kwirl » Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:01 pm

Enchanter sit back . . . . good lord are you joking?

When I play my enchanter its a nonstop barrage of glancing, scaling, hasting, blurring, glancing, memming out, returning, glancing, scaling, hasting, bluring, detects, yes i can get you to smoke, glancing, apologizing to group for talking instead of scaling, scaling, blurring, hasting, glancing, hasting, god dammit i'm off my synchronization, glancing, scaling, blurring, memming out, retuning, glancing, scaling, blurring, hasting, memming out, returning, please can i have water? yes, i can wait, scaling, glancing, blurring, memming out, fainting from exhaustion.

woohoo! 6% in 4 hours! *falling asleep at keyboard*



Sitting back my ass.
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Postby kwirl » Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:08 pm

The individual rewards and hindrances of each class in a group vs solo setting is not really the issue at hand, the issue I am attempting to address in this thread is that by penalizing grouping for experience, you are encouraging players to distance themselves from anyone and anything that could be considered a disadvantage or a 'drain' on their experience. While evilraces generally ignore this, as well as a rare few goodies, the overall theme is to just let the new player suck it up and be tough like we did.

This is a horrible attitude to have in a game that is attempting to encourage growth among its playerbase. This is absolutely no harm at all to the high level player who will have his new alt character to level 50 in a week solo, but to all the new players who do not have those resources; they see these other players fly past them at disheartening paces. It is demoralizing and creates a sense of futility among your new players.

The smart thing to do is to implement a system that will ultimately reward players for stopping to let some new people hook up with them and learn how to group.

What are the drawbacks? Powergamers will be able to level their characters faster. Please, try and tell me that this game is not powergamer friendly already, and do it with a straight face. I hardly doubt making this mud friendly to group bonuses will break the game anytime soon.

What are the rewards? New players will be welcomed into groups by older players who actually want them around. New players will not feel like a burden, but instead feel that they are contributing to the group as a whole. They will get to see how the best players play their characters and they will learn from it. The new players will sooner get to a level where they can begin seeing the real side of sojourn that is hidden from many players. They will get to take part in the wonderfully built zones, the challenging and rewarding quests. So what if a new player doesn't spend a full year of his life just going through hazing?

Don't the benefits of rewarding group experience bonuses vastly outweigh the drawbacks, or have I overlooked something obvious in my haste?
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Postby Vahok » Fri Sep 03, 2004 10:54 pm

kwirl wrote:The individual rewards and hindrances of each class in a group vs solo setting is not really the issue at hand, the issue I am attempting to address in this thread is that by penalizing grouping for experience, you are encouraging players to distance themselves from anyone and anything that could be considered a disadvantage or a 'drain' on their experience. While evilraces generally ignore this, as well as a rare few goodies, the overall theme is to just let the new player suck it up and be tough like we did.

This is a horrible attitude to have in a game that is attempting to encourage growth among its playerbase. This is absolutely no harm at all to the high level player who will have his new alt character to level 50 in a week solo, but to all the new players who do not have those resources; they see these other players fly past them at disheartening paces. It is demoralizing and creates a sense of futility among your new players.

The smart thing to do is to implement a system that will ultimately reward players for stopping to let some new people hook up with them and learn how to group.

What are the drawbacks? Powergamers will be able to level their characters faster. Please, try and tell me that this game is not powergamer friendly already, and do it with a straight face. I hardly doubt making this mud friendly to group bonuses will break the game anytime soon.

What are the rewards? New players will be welcomed into groups by older players who actually want them around. New players will not feel like a burden, but instead feel that they are contributing to the group as a whole. They will get to see how the best players play their characters and they will learn from it. The new players will sooner get to a level where they can begin seeing the real side of sojourn that is hidden from many players. They will get to take part in the wonderfully built zones, the challenging and rewarding quests. So what if a new player doesn't spend a full year of his life just going through hazing?

Don't the benefits of rewarding group experience bonuses vastly outweigh the drawbacks, or have I overlooked something obvious in my haste?


Yeah, this pretty much is my thinking as well...
...unless we only wanna cater to old school/experienced players
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Postby Sarell » Fri Sep 03, 2004 11:20 pm

um xisi, i didnt even mention spelldamage/combat damage comparison, what i was trying to say is that even tho i dont wear ANY dam roll on my warrior he still gets more exp than all my casters already.
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Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Sep 04, 2004 6:18 am

Sarell wrote:um xisi, i didnt even mention spelldamage/combat damage comparison, what i was trying to say is that even tho i dont wear ANY dam roll on my warrior he still gets more exp than all my casters already.


How dare you talk sense on forums!

(My hitters get exp faster too)
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Sat Sep 04, 2004 7:56 pm

kwirl wrote:The individual rewards and hindrances of each class in a group vs solo setting is not really the issue at hand, the issue I am attempting to address in this thread is that by penalizing grouping for experience, you are encouraging players to distance themselves from anyone and anything that could be considered a disadvantage or a 'drain' on their experience. While evilraces generally ignore this, as well as a rare few goodies, the overall theme is to just let the new player suck it up and be tough like we did.

This is a horrible attitude to have in a game that is attempting to encourage growth among its playerbase. This is absolutely no harm at all to the high level player who will have his new alt character to level 50 in a week solo, but to all the new players who do not have those resources; they see these other players fly past them at disheartening paces. It is demoralizing and creates a sense of futility among your new players.

The smart thing to do is to implement a system that will ultimately reward players for stopping to let some new people hook up with them and learn how to group.

What are the drawbacks? Powergamers will be able to level their characters faster. Please, try and tell me that this game is not powergamer friendly already, and do it with a straight face. I hardly doubt making this mud friendly to group bonuses will break the game anytime soon.

What are the rewards? New players will be welcomed into groups by older players who actually want them around. New players will not feel like a burden, but instead feel that they are contributing to the group as a whole. They will get to see how the best players play their characters and they will learn from it. The new players will sooner get to a level where they can begin seeing the real side of sojourn that is hidden from many players. They will get to take part in the wonderfully built zones, the challenging and rewarding quests. So what if a new player doesn't spend a full year of his life just going through hazing?

Don't the benefits of rewarding group experience bonuses vastly outweigh the drawbacks, or have I overlooked something obvious in my haste?


I like...really, REALLY, agree with this. Implement@once!!
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:31 pm

Other than the occasional hitall, and the switch that the newbie goes
squish before a rescue can save him, i completely 100% agree. But don't
limit this to newbies, just encourage grouping alltogether.

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