Bring back artifacts, politics and god favoritism

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Corth
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Bring back artifacts, politics and god favoritism

Postby Corth » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:23 pm

I'm sorry but if mudding is only about doing the same zone 14,433 times and talking in ye olde english then theres a damn good reason why the pbase is a fraction of what it used to be. I think its time to bring back artifacts and god favors. We need *something* to juice this place up. I mean, the only people happy with this egalitarian mud crap are people who have no skills to begin with.

One good place to start would be to start handing out in-game rewards to people willing to spend 10-15 hours a week coding improvements to the mud. Then, i'd like to see artifacts given out arbitrarily in such a manner that half the mud is sure to be pissed off. If that doesn't get some rivalries started I don't know what will.

Down with boring ass egalitarian muds :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Re: Bring back artifacts, politics and god favoritism

Postby Xisiqomelir » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:27 pm

You should take up origami.
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Rewards for gods

Postby Klandal » Sat Sep 04, 2004 11:32 pm

I know this may piss people off but...

Isn't this already happening? Despite the supposed elimination of favoritism, there are very few unique items/restrings that can't be tied back to a godplayer or close friend of one. I'd be more in favor of gods just saying outright that the reason their character has a unique item is because they're a god, not because of some glorious RP'ing.

Perhaps allow this publicly, and allow them only to keep such things as long as they meet certain accomplishments godside also.

Just a thought.
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Re: Rewards for gods

Postby Eilistraee » Sun Sep 05, 2004 12:28 am

Klandal wrote:Isn't this already happening?


No, it is not.
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It's not?

Postby Klandal » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:00 am

It's not? Just doing a rough count of the unique items/restrings in the game, a much higher percentage of them can be tied to gods or their close friends, without naming names. People may wish to ignore these correlations, but it doesn't make them any less apparent to those that know which god plays which mortal.

As I said before, I'm not trying to call anybody out or expose god alts, I'm just open to allowing those players that also contribute a lot to the MUD a chance to distinguish themselves from the casual player. Those few players that play 40+ hours/week and lead 95% of the zones... the ones that pioneer new quests/zones... Without those leaders, sadly nobody would even be experiencing the vast majority of this MUD that gods work so hard to create.

Some have been given out for creative efforts in promoting the MUD, some have been given out in RP. But just as these have been handed 'objectively' to the best of their category, I think the ability to see who's leading the majority of zones, pioneering the zones/quests, etc. could be equally as objective.

Down with cookie-cutter class equipment!
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Postby Eilistraee » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:11 am

No, it is not. Do not call me a liar again, by direct or indirect word.

That it has happened in the past I will not dispute. It was fairly rampant in some cases, as I understand it. However, since the change in administration, the only restrings that I am aware of that have been granted were as as a reward for either accomplishing a certain amount of commitment to roleplay, OR as rewards for stand-alone contests; namely the TorilMUD Logo and related contests.

If you find fault with the pace of unique items and restrings entering the game, then you are welcome to speak with Auril, the RP-Quest head or directly to the forgers. But do NOT attempt to insinuate that the gods are favoring some players over others, again.
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Postby Ihazim » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:35 am

I agree with corth.
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Postby Ambar » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:41 am

Those few players that play 40+ hours/week and lead 95% of the zones... the ones that pioneer new quests/zones... Without those leaders, sadly nobody would even be experiencing the vast majority of this MUD that gods work so hard to create.


christ klandan .. get a job and a life, man .. mudding is a HOBBY not a lifestyle .. and if it i a lifestyle then perchance you need therapy :P
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Re: It's not?

Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Sun Sep 05, 2004 1:53 am

Klandal wrote:It's not? Just doing a rough count of the unique items/restrings in the game, a much higher percentage of them can be tied to gods or their close friends, without naming names. People may wish to ignore these correlations, but it doesn't make them any less apparent to those that know which god plays which mortal.

As I said before, I'm not trying to call anybody out or expose god alts, I'm just open to allowing those players that also contribute a lot to the MUD a chance to distinguish themselves from the casual player. Those few players that play 40+ hours/week and lead 95% of the zones... the ones that pioneer new quests/zones... Without those leaders, sadly nobody would even be experiencing the vast majority of this MUD that gods work so hard to create.

Some have been given out for creative efforts in promoting the MUD, some have been given out in RP. But just as these have been handed 'objectively' to the best of their category, I think the ability to see who's leading the majority of zones, pioneering the zones/quests, etc. could be equally as objective.

Down with cookie-cutter class equipment!


Usually those that play the mud 40+ hours a week already have much better eq than the average player. They don't need any more, imo.

I do agree with Corth's idea of artifacts though. Artifacts would own. =)
Might be a useful tool in getting some new coders.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Sep 05, 2004 2:14 am

I believe strongly in egalitarianism and I think I have some skill. Its lack of egalitarianism that drives players away, you start giving out artifact and the like and those will be the people who will get into groups. Those people without will be marginalized, how are they to develop skills if not allowed to participate.

I'm not sure how giving skilled players even more of an advantage is supposed to make the game more fulfilling, it is challenge that makes the game interesting. If your bored with things try doing more with less.
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Left Out?

Postby Klandal » Sun Sep 05, 2004 4:23 am

Lack of egalitarianism drives people away? Probably not the only reason, but since artifacts/restrings/etc were taken out or made impossible to get without RP or god-requested task, MUD population here has dwindled. Your argument that only those with restrings/etc will get groups is silly. If you got a restring for your hard work, Lil, would you get any more groups than you're getting now? Wouldn't those getting the restrings already be the ones leading the groups, etc?

Also, I didn't limit rewards solely to artifacts. It would rock to get a restring for something exceptional, which wouldn't marginalize or give somebody any advantage over any other person. And you and I already do more with less. ;)
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Postby Dalar » Sun Sep 05, 2004 5:46 am

Damn Gene where u been? If you want to hear about all the god favoritism going on I'll be more to fill you in on what's going on. WoW ownz btw.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:07 am

Of course theres god favoritism. we just need more of it! :)

I will not dispute that the current batch of gods have done a pretty decent job of avoiding it. Its a very smooth running mud, with good zones, and after a while, not much to hold ones interest. Lilithelle definately has skills insofar as she is able to lead the same damn zone over and over and over again and still find it interesting. Most people, myself included, have lost interest... hence the reason the pbase is so suckiful.

So elistraee, instead of getting all offended when someone insinuates that you are making the game interesting, why not just give out an artifact to anyone but klandan and get things rolling? :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Corth » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:12 am

Lilithelle,

Your point is that people who are not on the receiving end of artifacts and favors etc will feel marginalized and leave. Actually, the exact opposite tends to happen. They become more involved in the politics of the mud and try to put themselves on the receiving end of such rewards. It adds another dimension to a game that is becoming more and more stagnant and gentrified.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby kwirl » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:31 am

I've never had an artifact, nor have I ever deserved one. I've never had a friend that was an immortal here, nor have I expected one. I do remember very well what Sojourn/Toril was like when artifacts were in the game, and I remember the 'dramatic' environment that also encompassed the game during this years.

The people were jealous and scheming, and there was a level of hatred that I don't think the majority of current players miss.

Those were good days, but the game I think is better now. We all know who artifacts would likely go to, and I doubt it would have any impact beyond putting themselves further ahead of the pack. The people who really care about that aspect of this game are leaving, and while the people who stay behind may not be as talented, or as I have been called recently, 'not deserving' of that level of prestige, they are nicer.

Its really hard to compare this mud to that, but I don't think the artifacts would fit in very well, at least not in the form they once manifested.

The kind of 'artifacts' i would like to see would be more like customized or unique items that are NOT gamebreakers, for example - a flamberge that was cone of cold instead of fireball, shocking grasp instead of acid blast, etc.

anyway, i'm just rambling
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Postby Eilistraee » Sun Sep 05, 2004 6:43 am

I have a very basic counter Corth. People are given unique objects and restrings over the course of extended roleplay. Based on your example, we should have increated interest in roleplay, people clamoring to obtain these items.

We don't. The only thing it seems to have accomplished is a new medium to bitch about. They aren't trying harder to get what's there. They're just whining because it isn't handed to them on THEIR terms.

Tough. The process exists, is documented and well regulated. You CAN get these things, by doing what the forgers have agreed is the way to get them.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Sep 05, 2004 7:24 pm

Yes, as it stands now most of the re-strings that are out there can
most likely be attributed to "favoritism". That went on for a good portion
of the life of toril. Unfortunately, many fewer people have attained the
amount of roleplay needed to get these same rewards now that there
is a system. I firmly believe there is no favoritism anymore. Yes there
was at one point, and it seems to be over with. If what you are saying is
that you want a different way of aquiring artifacts, i agree. I think there
should be another way. What that way is, i don't know, but as it stands,
this has been mostly a hack and slash game in the past, and rewards
used to come as a result. Now to have RP as the only way to get
what was previously available without, is a significant change. But,
this isn't something that us mortals have a choice in. We can either take
it and like it, or not like it and find something else to do. *shrug*

But your comment, Klandal, that there is still god favoritism, is completely
off base imho. My only dispute with the current system is that for about
3 months i was "fibbed" to about where i was along the progression to
a re-string. I was told i was quite close, and as it turns out i am still
quite some distance. Favoritism? nah. Sucks? yah. I hate getting my
hopes up, then having em squooshed.
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Postby Lilithelle » Sun Sep 05, 2004 8:53 pm

I have nothing against restrings, its just artifacts that i believe create imbalance. And though some will rise the the challenge so to speak to try to get them, I suspect more won't bother seeing it as unattainable or too difficult to break into the cliques or over come the prejudice of not being an "elite" player.

To assume that it is lack of artifacts and favoritism thats causing the pbase decline is simplistic. Simply because it existed in the past and the pbase was bigger. I suspect its more likely that people went elsewhere after s2 went down and didn't come back, the older players have moved on, people have gotten spouses families etc and don't have time and graphical muds have taken many players. We need new players, not something to try to keep old players interested.

New players are the lifes blood of muds in the long term, maybe instead of sitting around pining for the past or longing for toys to make you seem better than others you should take on the challenge of cultivating new players. The thing that makes a mud more than just a video game is the people not the game mechanics and rewards. Why not just get an x-box and try to reach level 100 on some generic game? But oh wait, then who would you have to show off your "accomplishments" to.
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Accomplishments

Postby Klandal » Sun Sep 05, 2004 10:25 pm

We need new players, not something to try to keep old players interested.


The majority of the people informing the MUD of quests, leading the zones, and pioneering new things ARE the old players. If we took the stance that we shouldn't care about keeping the players with the most invested in the MUD AND typically the ones who give back the most to the MUD, it seems like you're cutting out an important part of catalysts for activity.

Do I want new players? Hell yeah I do. I vote every chance I get and lots of other things available to get new players to try this MUD and STAY here. As much time as some people put into this MUD, there's bound to be a point where they have their 'perfect set' and able to lead every zone. There's only so many hundreds of times you can lead a zone so everybody can bid on items everybody already has; new content or higher pursuits are necessary to keep those players around. Why not offer restrings as encouragement for people to lead and take some strain off the shoulders of the same handful of current leaders? Not only would it encourage newbies to step up into a higher role than lackey, it would also provide a difficult yet obtainable goal for those that already have their set. They wouldn't be getting anything game-breaking, just their own touch to an item they've spent their time getting and earning a restring.

The thing that makes a mud more than just a video game is the people not the game mechanics and rewards.


Then don't be opposed to offering suggestions to keep those 'people' around a little longer. Allow a certain dwarf with an affinity toward axes the chance with enough effort to change that badass warrior scimitar into an axe. Game-breaking? No. Rewarding? Sure, and might keep people around a little longer to make their 'perfect set statwise' to 'perfect set' period. :)
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Postby Rihesesassixiz » Mon Sep 06, 2004 1:56 am

I have a unique item and no one knows who I am.

Go me.
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Postby Salen » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:38 am

I, for the life of me, have never figured out why a restring is such a limited thing. If a player already has the item and gets to make their own restring, NOTHING has changed power-wise. Since the mud is now balanced by a spreadsheet equation, it makes no difference in game terms that someone has 'gauntlets of living fire' instead of the red dragonscale ones. The only difference it makes is to the person wearing it. If there was a hardcoded quest in the game to restring items, I would probably play much more than I do now (which wouldn't be hard), at least for a while.
NOTE: This could also be a good reason not to code it.

As for favoritism and artifacts, I'm not even going there, except to say that no matter what, when real people and RP is involved, things are subjective.

Finally, I have two restrings and a badge. One is from Miax's Christmas, one is from Malar?'s halloween thing (little pumpkin/big pumpkin), and one is traded for. None of them make the slightest bit of difference in game terms.

I'd be interested in where the other restring/uniques came from.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Sep 06, 2004 9:33 am

I agree with giving stuff new flashy names. Hell, I collect eq so I can RP with neat looking stuff. As long as the stats aren't significantly different and the basis on which the names were changed is fair, then I say go for it. It's just gonna lead to more "OHHH, what are the stats on that?" questions, but if the player who got the restring can handle it then more power to him/her.

This conversation interests me because it's like the argument between how capitalism is supposed to work and how it actually works (with little or no gov't regulation). It seems that competition, like in capitalism, is the drive of giving out artifacts based on favoritism. However, the equal opportunity has been erased from the market. Equal chance is one of the things that allows capitalism to strive. The dream to become as rich as that bastard next to you is often viewed in terms of time and effort. Favoritism would mean that time and effors would not necessarily equal results (so in other words, capitalism without equal chance and socialism have a similar problem for those who aren't considered elite).

So, I tend to agree with Lilithelle. Competition is cool, but lack of it in terms of artifacts may not be the reason for the low pbase. I think it's a combination of factors that may or may not be solved through reinstating favoritism. Without conculsive evidence, I would say it's better to keep the mud on a more level playing field. But there are polls and research to be done and if it turns out that majority of the mud wants that stuff back, I say we give it a chance.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:13 pm

I don't know how this became a referendum on restrings. I guess you can't expect much out of people who can't seem to dredge up more controversy than the issue of whether or not rangers are unbalanced. Restrings are a fucking cock tease. I'm talking about having gods hand out overpowered swords to the prick that kisses their ass the most. I'm talking about giving a challenging 2-day quest (not some wussy 'rp sphere' quest) to some random favored guild so they get all sorts of nifty shit, and then not having another one for a year or so. Let everyone else bitch and moan for 360 days over how that particular guild was chosen. I'm talking about waking this place up again. But probably i'm too late because anyone with balls has long left after doing jot for the 174325th time. :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Xisiqomelir » Mon Sep 06, 2004 2:36 pm

Corth wrote:I guess you can't expect much out of people who can't seem to dredge up more controversy than the issue of whether or not rangers are unbalanced.


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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Mon Sep 06, 2004 3:54 pm

Corth wrote:I don't know how this became a referendum on restrings. I guess you can't expect much out of people who can't seem to dredge up more controversy than the issue of whether or not rangers are unbalanced. Restrings are a fucking cock tease. I'm talking about having gods hand out overpowered swords to the prick that kisses their ass the most. I'm talking about giving a challenging 2-day quest (not some wussy 'rp sphere' quest) to some random favored guild so they get all sorts of nifty shit, and then not having another one for a year or so. Let everyone else bitch and moan for 360 days over how that particular guild was chosen. I'm talking about waking this place up again. But probably i'm too late because anyone with balls has long left after doing jot for the 174325th time. :)

Corth


Are you by any chance a Duris player? =p

Duris had that sort of mentality...yeah its a pk mud, but that place has all the things you mention. It's now a mere shadow of what it was. People quit left and right, and it's probably the most un-newbie friendly mud out there. (Yes some of this is due to pk, but also the lack of egalitarianism as you speak of)

I understand your boredom....really I do. Even if the staff DID agree with your ideas....and they don't...we lack the staff power to put all these things in motion. I agree with the idea we need new stuff to keep old players interested, and I bet the staff do too, but we need to do it without stepping on the new players toes.

I say we wait for the current projects to be finished, as tedious as that may be. Go outside or something. Then we can make suggestions and actually expect some results.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 06, 2004 4:34 pm

Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Are you by any chance a Duris player? =p


No. I played sojourn though.. and then toril. You know.. the muds with 250-300 people on at one time or another? With lots of politics, and god favors and artifacts and stuff?

Moving on, lets contrast a couple of quote....

Shar wrote:We always need coders but only a specific kind of coder could fill the spots we need. Unfortunately, very few coders that are of the type we need ever have the desire to mud. If you feel like you could take *explicit* direction, tackle projects that will win you nothing in terms of in-game reward ... you might just be the right kind of coder!


Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:we lack the staff power to put all these things in motion.

I say we wait for the current projects to be finished, as tedious as that may be.


Corth wrote:One good place to start would be to start handing out in-game rewards to people willing to spend 10-15 hours a week coding improvements to the mud.


What do we learn from these quotes? Most importantly, everyone is in agreement that there is a serious lack of active coders on this mud. Shar has identified the problem, but not the solution. You, on the other hand, are suggesting that we should continue to wait around for coding projects to be completed, even though past experience would suggest that they will NEVER be finished. Another way of saying the same thing, Vahok, is that you have identified the problem, and suggest that we do not take any steps to solve it.

As far as I can tell, I'm the only one suggesting a viable solution to the problem that all three of us have identified.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:38 pm

Corth wrote:
Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Are you by any chance a Duris player? =p


No. I played sojourn though.. and then toril. You know.. the muds with 250-300 people on at one time or another? With lots of politics, and god favors and artifacts and stuff?

Moving on, lets contrast a couple of quote....

Shar wrote:We always need coders but only a specific kind of coder could fill the spots we need. Unfortunately, very few coders that are of the type we need ever have the desire to mud. If you feel like you could take *explicit* direction, tackle projects that will win you nothing in terms of in-game reward ... you might just be the right kind of coder!


Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:we lack the staff power to put all these things in motion.

I say we wait for the current projects to be finished, as tedious as that may be.


Corth wrote:One good place to start would be to start handing out in-game rewards to people willing to spend 10-15 hours a week coding improvements to the mud.


What do we learn from these quotes? Most importantly, everyone is in agreement that there is a serious lack of active coders on this mud. Shar has identified the problem, but not the solution. You, on the other hand, are suggesting that we should continue to wait around for coding projects to be completed, even though past experience would suggest that they will NEVER be finished. Another way of saying the same thing, Vahok, is that you have identified the problem, and suggest that we do not take any steps to solve it.

As far as I can tell, I'm the only one suggesting a viable solution to the problem that all three of us have identified.


Your solution may be viable. Handing out artifacts to those willing to get jobs done, may be a great idea, the answer to all the problems.

But wait....the staff will never agree to it! I bet if 99% of the mud came here and posted saying how wonderful it would be to do this, the staff would shoot it down. I don't think most of the mud would really give a damn if a couple players were uber-powerful, if it meant frequent code changes, updates and etc. If I knew how to code, I'd do it.
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Postby Kifle » Mon Sep 06, 2004 5:47 pm

I agree, corth. The best time I had on this incarnation of the mud was when SOI and DSR where in competition. I'm a highly competative person and I think many, including Dartan and yourself are as well. What I don't agree on is your solution. While artifacts would start old blood wars and new, they would be on a smaller scale and would probably not make much of an impact. Quite possibly, it would cause a negative impact. I will propose what I did in the past. Make the major cities (WD, DK, etc...) self governed. Take out the justice system. Vote for public officials and have them deal with day to day drama caused between players. Have them dole out punishment for those that are Wanted within the town. Hold public meetings, trials, etc. You want somebody to be pissed at you and have them get an angry crowd around you and your friends? How about getting elected as WD king and executing somebody who killed a street cleaner instead of giving him a fine or something. Have somebody thrown in jail for no reason and watch as the city tries for a throw a coup. Now that would be fun.

In short, fuck artifacts if drama is your goal. If you want drama, you need something to where people's decisions will ultimately effect other peoples lives. Now that causes fun drama.
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Postby Corth » Mon Sep 06, 2004 6:06 pm

Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Your solution may be viable. Handing out artifacts to those willing to get jobs done, may be a great idea, the answer to all the problems.

But wait....the staff will never agree to it!


All I can do is propose good ideas. Its the job of the powers that be to run the mud into the ground. :)

Kifle: *snore*
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Llaaldara » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:03 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:Yes, as it stands now most of the re-strings that are out there can
most likely be attributed to "favoritism". That went on for a good portion
of the life of toril. Unfortunately, many fewer people have attained the
amount of roleplay needed to get these same rewards now that there
is a system. I firmly believe there is no favoritism anymore. Yes there
was at one point, and it seems to be over with. If what you are saying is
that you want a different way of aquiring artifacts, i agree. I think there
should be another way. What that way is, i don't know, but as it stands,
this has been mostly a hack and slash game in the past, and rewards
used to come as a result. Now to have RP as the only way to get
what was previously available without, is a significant change. But,
this isn't something that us mortals have a choice in. We can either take
it and like it, or not like it and find something else to do. *shrug*

But your comment, Klandal, that there is still god favoritism, is completely
off base imho. My only dispute with the current system is that for about
3 months i was "fibbed" to about where i was along the progression to
a re-string. I was told i was quite close, and as it turns out i am still
quite some distance. Favoritism? nah. Sucks? yah. I hate getting my
hopes up, then having em squooshed.


I concur with your view on the absence of favoritism on Toril2. They have a system now, and it is extremely fair. If some of you don't remember, I was one of the people who wanted it a lot more difficult, which never happened.

And Del, if it makes you feel any better, I haven't received an RP reward of any kind from the RP/Quest sphere since the MUD split. *shrug* Doesn't stop me from plugging away at it tho. But I can understand your disgruntlement to a degree.

One comment,
I do see that character rewards, equipment and special abilities/modifications, are unique to the RP/Quest sphere and it's system, and that this system is fair but only to those types of players who play on this mud for this reason. But there are two distinctly different types of players who play on this mud. RP'rs and Power Gamers. Because of that, I do see an imbalance between player rewards as they do now only cater to one type of player. I say 'now', because previously rewards were even given to zone leaders without an RP bone in their bodies, or the ability to write a 1 page story above a 5th grade level.

Not every RP'r here can lead a zone or figure out and complete the harder quests of the mud. And not every zone leader/quest dog can RP or write a story.

Why should one type of player be catered to and not the other? Now I understand that the RP/Quest sphere is a specific area with limited control, so I'm not suggesting it should be their responsibility to reward the power gamers. No, instead I see a lack of some authority within the staff to govern this aspect, and perhaps it should be created?

Power gamers want restrings too? How about a system for power gamers?
Turn in an item, get a restring:
Enchanted Khanjair dagger = 5 restring tokens
BC Dagger = 3 restring tokens
Holy sword/Unholy sword = 1 restring token
Oblivion Dagger = 1 restring token

;)

-=-=-=-

Corth, bring back artifacts eh? Bring back the controversy and the animosity too I take it? Get folks riled up and angry, is that your intent in order to get players more emotional about playing again? Seems exceedingly flawed logically. Getting folks angry does nothing but light up the BBS with flames and inspire folks to leave the mud permanently and create clone muds of their own to show the staff here 'how it should be done' or such. I'm not exactly sure why you think negative engery would lead to the mud's positive growth. Or why players not having super weapons would want to play more? Did Gormal getting his spiffy super sutur bring you out of your coma and into regular playing? *scratch* Or did it just flare up the boards?

Personally, I'd like to believe that positive energy leads to greater things, but that's probably just my view. So be it. But dude, anyone can throw eggs at a person's house to express their opinion about how it's being built, and it's another type of person (the kind that truly cares) who will come inside, pick up a hammer, and lend a hand.

It's been a long time since Toril had mentors, ever given it a thought? Probably a new illusionists out there that could use some insites? *shrug*

-=-=-=-

And Klandal..

*shakes her head and sighs*

..Oh nevermind. You're obviously in your own little world over there. Forget it.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:42 pm

Some people like the idea of restrings. They find them a cool incentive to work harder and something that doesn't throw the mud out of balance on the off chance that doing so will make the mud more powerful. We understood that this is not what the thread is about, but we also believed that artifacts and favoritism isn't the answer. So, we suggested something different. You don't have to get down on people for suggesting an alternative when that's all you're doing.
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Postby Vahok » Mon Sep 06, 2004 10:56 pm

Corth wrote:
Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Are you by any chance a Duris player? =p


No. I played sojourn though.. and then toril. You know.. the muds with 250-300 people on at one time or another? With lots of politics, and god favors and artifacts and stuff?

Moving on, lets contrast a couple of quote....

Shar wrote:We always need coders but only a specific kind of coder could fill the spots we need. Unfortunately, very few coders that are of the type we need ever have the desire to mud. If you feel like you could take *explicit* direction, tackle projects that will win you nothing in terms of in-game reward ... you might just be the right kind of coder!


Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:we lack the staff power to put all these things in motion.

I say we wait for the current projects to be finished, as tedious as that may be.


Corth wrote:One good place to start would be to start handing out in-game rewards to people willing to spend 10-15 hours a week coding improvements to the mud.


What do we learn from these quotes? Most importantly, everyone is in agreement that there is a serious lack of active coders on this mud. Shar has identified the problem, but not the solution. You, on the other hand, are suggesting that we should continue to wait around for coding projects to be completed, even though past experience would suggest that they will NEVER be finished. Another way of saying the same thing, Vahok, is that you have identified the problem, and suggest that we do not take any steps to solve it.

As far as I can tell, I'm the only one suggesting a viable solution to the problem that all three of us have identified.


Hey now, leave me outta this! I ain't dumb enough to touch this thread with a 50 foot pole! :)
Meatshield
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:29 am

Mitharx wrote:Some people like the idea of restrings. They find them a cool incentive to work harder and something that doesn't throw the mud out of balance on the off chance that doing so will make the mud more powerful. We understood that this is not what the thread is about, but we also believed that artifacts and favoritism isn't the answer. So, we suggested something different. You don't have to get down on people for suggesting an alternative when that's all you're doing.


What if re-strings weren't as difficult to get? as far as i know, VERY few
have been given out since the "split". I realize that they shouldn't be given
out like candy, but if these were a little lower level reward, maybe the
more "uber" upgrades to some of your gear, perhaps even your previous
re-strings could be a reward. The ability to increase these things is
something available in the "earthdawn" gaming series. has to do with your
"pattern" or basically life-essence. you keep something with you long
enough, and do enough epic things with it, it becomes magical even if
it wasn't, and more magical if it was. Perhaps this could be added as a
means of keeping players around. granted new challenges are almost
equally important, but the lack of people willing to give direct help in
the matter of zone creation has kept my personal attempt at writing a
zone at about 2/3 to 3/4 finished for quite some time now. I would bet
i am not the only one.
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Postby Dugmaren » Tue Sep 07, 2004 12:51 am

but the lack of people willing to give direct help in
the matter of zone creation has kept my personal attempt at writing a
zone at about 2/3 to 3/4 finished for quite some time now


That's not only off topic it's insulting.
* There's tutorials to get you through zone building.
* A very simple 4 step process to creating zones.
* A small example zone loaded on testmud whose files are accessible to builders.
* AND if you don't mind waiting for me to return to keyboard, I've been online 16 hours a day for over a month available to, and answering areas questions.

</rant></thread steal>
Dugmaren
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Postby Dalar » Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:45 am

Once again, Delmair gets owned.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
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Postby Corth » Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:38 am

Llaaldara wrote:I'm not exactly sure why you think negative engery would lead to the mud's positive growth.


Its a game. The essence of just about all games is competition. I'm trying to inject some additional competition into this one. I don't see that as negative energy, unless its negative to be competetive. In any event, I don't see how adding a few artifacts is negative energy when the basic premise of the game is that you should run around KILLING things in order to move ahead in the world....

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Verarb » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:10 pm

Corth wrote:I don't know how this became a referendum on restrings. I guess you can't expect much out of people who can't seem to dredge up more controversy than the issue of whether or not rangers are unbalanced. Restrings are a fucking cock tease. I'm talking about having gods hand out overpowered swords to the prick that kisses their ass the most. I'm talking about giving a challenging 2-day quest (not some wussy 'rp sphere' quest) to some random favored guild so they get all sorts of nifty shit, and then not having another one for a year or so. Let everyone else bitch and moan for 360 days over how that particular guild was chosen. I'm talking about waking this place up again. But probably i'm too late because anyone with balls has long left after doing jot for the 174325th time. :)

Corth


Hahahah!

Maybe im lookin through rose colored glasses but i remember those days and they were great. We all hated the specific group that seemed to have a monopoly on artis but we Mudded HARD to out-perform those wankers and i think we did that and had a blast along the way.
Nothing unites a group of people like a common enemy.
Yah! like start tossing out artis to wankers!
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Sep 07, 2004 2:42 pm

I can actually see Corth's point, even though I'm opposed to bringing artifacts back into the game. Dalar's completed all his quests, so who's really there to piss everybody off and drive them to compete harder? Nobody competes to claim Jot Invasion any more. Almost everybody that's been playing this game for any substantial amount of time has at least one killer set with pieces from almost all the high level zones. The race has slowed to a powerwalk and the factors that stimulate our competitive natures have dwindled.

There are people that enjoy a more laid-back atmosphere, and there's nothing wrong with that, so please don't insult them by insinuating that they're somehow less competent or intelligent... they're just not as driven to throw themselves so totally into an artificial reality. This, however, is an artificial reality that thrives best on competition, an artificial reality which is built on a foundation of the drive to satisfy the gamer's ego. The closer the game comes to a Utopian vision, the less reason for many players to return, because conflict and competition are required elements for the majority of gamers.

How can you be the best if there's nobody to be better than? Taunts of "nah nah nah nah boo boo" give no personal satisfaction if they don't have targets who appreciate the challenge in the first place.

So how do you stimulate the competitive nature of your players? How do you get Sojourn back to the point where the trek to 50 was a real challenge? How do you get it back to the point where quests were actually secret and you had to work to achieve what you got? How do you make being number one worth crowing about again?

If artifacts were seeded into the gaming community... how would I procure one for myself? Could I strangle the owner in his sleep? Would it involve copious amounts of bootie? Would there be a certain level of schmoozery I would have to maintain? Would I have to submit a sub-par zone in order to become a staff member with access to information for cheating purposes, and how many rooms would that require, between the numbers of one and one hundred, and what would I have to do after zone submission in order to maintain my position in the future? Would that involve copious amounts of bootie?

Personally... I'd prefer the "strangling them in their sleep" option.
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Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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Postby Ihazim » Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:09 pm

Gamers game to gain power. Sojourn/toril has become so fair that there's only a finite ammount of power to gain over other players. I feel the reason for less gamers is because this mud is less interesting (for the masses).

The mud changing isn't going to happen. Just get over it.
Last edited by Ihazim on Tue Sep 07, 2004 5:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Booty

Postby Klandal » Tue Sep 07, 2004 4:16 pm

Amen, Ashiwi, especially the part about the copious amount of booty. *wiggle*
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Postby Llaaldara » Tue Sep 07, 2004 6:53 pm

Corth wrote:Its a game. The essence of just about all games is competition. I'm trying to inject some additional competition into this one. I don't see that as negative energy, unless its negative to be competetive. In any event, I don't see how adding a few artifacts is negative energy when the basic premise of the game is that you should run around KILLING things in order to move ahead in the world....

Corth


I can understand wanting to have artifacts put in, as I had a thread not too long ago about a legitimate way to actually do it without ANY god favortism or running the risk of creating another plateau of elitists.

I think I understand what you mean about the whole competition. In fact, I think competition here died the day the EQ changes went in and all the gear was all made pretty equal (SPoB not included of course).

Seriously, I haven't been inspired to get myself a choice item in I dunno how long ago. I use sylphs and you use Musp bracers of defense or whatever, like so what? Like there's really a big friggin difference between the two?

Yeah anyways. :P


Be nice if Tia was back in, with super sweet new gear! I'd rather see that then favortism (that's what I meant by negativity btw - that whole topic just drips with it) & artifacts.
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Postby Selzan » Tue Sep 07, 2004 7:52 pm

Verarb wrote:Maybe im lookin through rose colored glasses but i remember those days and they were great.


Verarb and Corth are dead on. I recognize that this style of play may not be for everyone, and that's fine. Personally, and for most of those whom I MUD with, there is *nothing* better than a good rivalry where the competition -- and the STAKES -- actually mean something. Multiple group races *through* Jot invasion will always have a special place in my heart. Now we are forced to share, *snore*.

Regarding artifacts, yeah, they are a necessity to driving the fires of people who have done the same zones countless times and have few things to improve upon. They force you to engage in politics -- ideally just with guilds and players -- to maneuver yourself in a position to even be considered worthy of receiving one.

Here's an example. Anyone remember the furor that occurred when Thruar was simply handed his Avernus when Kurz retired? I sure do. I like Thruar and all, but that was the entirely wrong way to handle artifacts and an easy way to piss off the players. On the other hand, who recalls the God run race across the entire mud -- and OPEN to EVERYONE -- for a variety of artifacts which culminated, if memory serves, in Doombringer and a few other jawdropping items.

Just about EVERYONE who logged in that night participated in the latter event, even the newbs who Modu graciously schlepped around. Everyone knew the real race was Eye vs. Sigil but even the Newbs had the offchance of figuring the locations of quest mobs out before the veterans. That was the *right* way to handle artifacts... it forced people to work against each other, it rewarded people who had a wide knowledge of the MUD (as well as skill), and it gave some gear people to this day continue drool over. Sorry Sesexe, the +1 extra hitroll or so on Gormal's "spiffy" Surtur isn't going to cause that kind of drool or awake any people who might regain interest ...

I guess my point is this: artifacts, if handled correctly, would have the potential to truly boost people's interest in the game again. Get a few dedicated Gods (who have tight lips) and plan something out... the awakening of the artifacts, or whatever. Open it to the whole mud and let people duke it out and match their wits and skill. I guarantee that the turnout will be fantastic. Ideally, it would be the first of a series of God run quests that put these same Artifacts up for continual grab every 3-6 months or so (yes, that means take it away from the lucky holders at the end of each cycle) so that a) people continue to lust over the *chance* of grabbing one, and b) avoiding stagnation if artifact holders start to disappear.

Six or seven prime artifacts (Avernus, Tia Stinger, Kelrarin Gaunts/Hammer, "Toddrod", Frulgheim, and Midnight Staff all come to mind) across the entire mud would hardly break balance, but they would add a whole new dimension that we are sorely missing right now. Give it some thought. I think the rewards FAR outweigh the costs.
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Postby Lilithelle » Tue Sep 07, 2004 11:50 pm

Just one comment about getting coders, I wouldn't mind them getting restrings or something fairly ungame affecting for their efforts. But frankly I don't think you want coders who would be doing their job for rewards because those kind of people are likely to cheat and show favoratism.

Lilithelle definately has skills insofar as she is able to lead the same damn zone over and over and over again and still find it interesting.


Corth I don't lead zones for the challenge, I lead zones because I find it rewarding to help others have fun and get eq. I get a feeling of satisfaction if we can do the zone with a minimum of death. When I want a challenge I solo manscorpions or other insane things. I don't like getting people killed so I prefer to do the dangerous stuff alone.
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Postby Tasan » Wed Sep 08, 2004 12:48 am

This whole discussion just mirrors RL so much it's sad.

The limitations put on some items versus others is absolutely retarded these days. Remember when all "game breaking" abilities were suddenly nerfed so that classes that weren't supposed to have certain skills/spells available to them couldn't use them?

Then enter Khanjari.... oh woops, guess since it fits into the idea of an RP story it should be ok.

Seriously though, those that remember the "good old days" remember the favoritism, the in-fighting... those were the good times because yes you did always strive to learn something new to be 1 step ahead of that other guy... guilds worked together instead of being individuals using a chat channel to talk about pipi.

I know several people that have for the most part retired, and all retired because the monotony of the same crap over and over got boring. It's much like any other game... you get bored w/ the same thing. New challenges in new zones... sure that's nice, but the growing trend is to make a zone take 8 hours to finish, and so many people can't devote time like that that it isn't even worth logging on.

I don't think artifacts ruined anything. I don't think favoritism ruined anything. Some of the best RP stories and events happened around the times when these things were given out. Sure as hell beats going to session after session after session and finally giving up on anything actually happening. Hell, the first campaign took so long to finish out some details that the immortals in charge gave up and went to sleep leaving us running around and shouting for nothing.

Yes, yes it's all great and good to take someone by the hand and show them how to play. Great, grand whatever... not everyone gets off on helping every single new player attempt to pick up the game.

Competition drives people. Boring, repetitive actions do not. If you think that adding artifacts, competition and maybe a little angst will drive new people away, I say you are dead wrong. Trorxek was one of the reasons I wanted to play this game, regardless if I knew I could ever obtain it at the time. And I know I'm not alone in the older generation that remembers those days and would like to see the old competitive spirit back.

At any rate, at least this is something that wouldn't take years to complete...

!!x
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Postby Corth » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:07 am

Lilithelle wrote:Corth I don't lead zones for the challenge, I lead zones because I find it rewarding to help others have fun and get eq. I get a feeling of satisfaction if we can do the zone with a minimum of death. When I want a challenge I solo manscorpions or other insane things. I don't like getting people killed so I prefer to do the dangerous stuff alone.
Lil


*puke*
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Imis9 » Wed Sep 08, 2004 2:33 am

Those were good times back in the day. As has been said before, artifacts never hurt the game. They did create an atmosphere of animosity as the result of real or percieved inequities in their distribution. The interesting thing was that this happened not only with the original folks that recieved them, but also for the folks that later acquired them as well. This hostility created drama in the game. Zones are cool and stuff, but to get real immersion in the game is what drama does. Coding and the like doesn't get you this transformation of the online world into a real life soap opera. What gets this is when real people treat the world as being real. Relationships form, grow, struggle, grow stronger, or crumble. If anything, the old days were our version of reality TV. Everyone says it was mean and hated it, but they loved watching and being part of it.

Another thing is that artifacts create stories. These stories are not just in acquiring them, but also, stories come out of their use. How many old folks remember the old items? Deidrit's cloak? Larae's (old, old shar) stinger? Modu's staff? Kalsor's Avernus? Draaz's Axe? (which later was acquired by a Saber guy who everyone always called, "That guy with Draaz's axe")? How about the next generation who got artifacts or relics? Kurz, Tagad and Ilshadrial being some of the big ones. Hell, one of my favorite stories is when we almost got Marforp's warrior Doombringer during a impromtu quest when I think the god was mildly drunk or something.

Restrings and stuff are interesting, but they really don't actually mean anything, which is part of their problem. Uniques, artifacts and relics have real meaning. Relics are probably too powerful, but some conservative use of uniques and artifacts might be a good thing.

Imis

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Postby Nilan » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:31 am

I dont see how handing out a bunch of artifacts to certain people in select guilds is supposed to be a good thing.

Nilan
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Postby Dugmaren » Wed Sep 08, 2004 4:30 am

K first off don't take this as staff support of the idea. BUT, I'm interested to know what you think would make someone worthy of getting an artifact, or a relic?

Dug
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Postby Verarb » Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:30 am

Corth wrote:Restrings are a fucking cock tease. I'm talking about having gods hand out overpowered swords to the prick that kisses their ass the most. I'm talking about giving a challenging 2-day quest (not some wussy 'rp sphere' quest) to some random favored guild so they get all sorts of nifty shit, and then not having another one for a year or so.

Corth


Cough or give it to the most afk 1w or tp guy; that way it doesnt unbalance anything.
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Postby kwirl » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:15 am

First of all, I would like to state my opinion, which means nothing to anyone, that I doubt the staff has any intention of ever returning true artifacts to our hands.

Second, Corth is right, but I'm not entirely sure that his method of deduction has a solid foundation. Yes, I severely miss the days when we had 200+ players online at a time, and it is very easy to think of those as the 'Golden Days' - but was the game population so high because of the drama and competition of the time. or is the game population so low now because of some other cause completely?

Personally, if I stop and think about it the matter, and I just did, although you can't see it, Corth's idea does hold a lot of merit. I would love to see something in place that would motivate me to go above and beyond. This whole 'roleplay for rewards' stuff seems like a lot of bologna to me. I have had little response in asking for direction, and many of the players actively avoid including me in RP events because I have never bonded to one clique or another.

Years ago I had dreams, I was the perpetual newbie, and I set goals for myself. I wanted to be part of a Tiamat group, and I wanted to convince the mud that I was worthy of an artifact. Grouping with players that had artifacts made my jaw drop, and I loved seeing them in action.

However, in the current state of the mud, I have a very strong feeling that those people with artifacts would severely distance themselves socially from the 'common player' of the mud, but what do I know.

Oh, and I loathe the idea of rewarding characters for coding. If I was exerting my energy and passion into building and coding, I would want it to be done for my love of the game and for the knowledge that I was contributing to something bigger than myself. Having people manufacture things in exchange for personal compensation is not the level of quality that comes to mind when I think of the good days.

Its a good topic Corth, but ultimately unrealistic from the current administrative viewpoint.

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