Bring back artifacts, politics and god favoritism

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Klandal
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Worthy

Postby Klandal » Wed Sep 08, 2004 7:28 am

Dug, if I were thinking about bringing artifacts back I'd start by tieing them into something quantifiable that everybody could see as indisputable evidence they have it over somebody else. I would also make it a periodic criteria, subject to be taken back if the reason they got it dwindles.

For instance, Lilithelle just solo'd Scorps and logs show she leads 75% of the MUD groups. Those are 2 things worthy of receiving some kudos for and maybe an artifact for 3 months time as a reward. After 3 months she may or may not keep it for another 3 months, depending on whether she still was leading the majority of the groups.

Another instance, Klandan has just led a zone that was put into the game. He was not only the first to do this one, he was the first to successfully lead the last new zone too. He also seems to be the one breaking new quests, figuring them out and finishing them first. These things might warrant an artifact for a couple months also, which would be up for review at a later date also if somebody dethroned him.

These are examples of indisputable accomplishments. They would be rewarded, but would also have to keep up those accomplishments or lose their 'title' in effect. This would not only keep the winners of artifacts motivated to continue dominant aspects of their play to retain their title, it would also encourage other people to try to lead zones, pioneer new zones/quests, etc.

Some obvious problems come from the reasons gods were encouraged not to have mortals. If a godchar wanted an artifact, it would be all too tempting to cheat on quest info or other things to get a jump on those mortals doing hard work to figure those things out. But I guess if gods were already getting open benefits from being gods, restrings, uniques, etc for their service, it might not be so tempting. There could be restrictions on those too. A coder may get a unique item, but if they hadn't worked on a project or completed one in a couple months, they no longer deserve that item.

Dunno, just rough ideas.

-Klandan
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Postby Corth » Wed Sep 08, 2004 11:52 am

Dugmaren wrote:K first off don't take this as staff support of the idea. BUT, I'm interested to know what you think would make someone worthy of getting an artifact, or a relic?

Dug


You are speaking from the perspective of someone who is concerned solely with fairness. Confronted with an idea you grasp for a way to apply it fairly among the mud population. This type of concern, common among the current powers that be, is what makes them more admirable than some of our past immortals. On the other hand it is slowly squeezing the life out of the GAME.

I have the greatest respect for you personally, Dug, however I'm not liking the reaction that you had to this thread. Establishing criteria for objectively and rationally rating players will flop in the same way that it did when you established criteria for objectively and rationally rating the difficulty of zones. This is one of those situations where getting it wrong will actually contribute to the net effect that is needed.


Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

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Postby bimble » Wed Sep 08, 2004 1:21 pm

I think Corth is right about the dynamic of the game not having enough stress between players. If art's did come back I dont think its all that important that they are distirbuted fairly. But I do think they should have to be "fed". since we are not a pkilll mud they could be fed by haveing them hunger to go zoning - not the same one over and over. Another might eat prestige that can only be replaced by either creating or partipating in RP events.Maybe one might feed on demons alone - or giants. Just and idea.. havent thought it out a lot. But if they arent fed they get "jump" from thier owners into the hands of another till fed.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Sep 08, 2004 3:20 pm

In keeping with the theme of instigating necessary conflict, I'd rather see a method of allowing one player to "win" the artifact away from another player. I'm not exactly sure how something like that could be accomplished, but one way would be to make the artifacts gifts from the deities of each theology. One artifact could be connected to deities from several different theologies, incorporating gods for each race and alignment available to the players. Artifacts could be awarded based on deeds done within a certain time period to the favored follower of each deity. Deeds could be quest-based, based on the amount of prestige gained in a specified time period, based on the defeat of certain enemies of the deity's followers, or any number or combination of things. If the possessor of the artifact doesn't maintain his standing as the deity's favored, then the artifact would be stripped from him and given over to the new favored.

Also, staff sponsored contests would be a fun way of determining winners of artifacts. Oooooh, oooooh... maybe we should go watch re-runs of "Survivor" to get some ideas for some fun backbiting events. Or "Big Brother." Anything but "Elima-Date."
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Sep 08, 2004 5:46 pm

Dugmaren wrote:
but the lack of people willing to give direct help in
the matter of zone creation has kept my personal attempt at writing a
zone at about 2/3 to 3/4 finished for quite some time now


That's not only off topic it's insulting.
* There's tutorials to get you through zone building.
* A very simple 4 step process to creating zones.
* A small example zone loaded on testmud whose files are accessible to builders.
* AND if you don't mind waiting for me to return to keyboard, I've been online 16 hours a day for over a month available to, and answering areas questions.

</rant></thread steal>

Dugmaren


Thats funny. I've not gotten any replies to my tells in WEEKS,
nor have i ever been given the address for the testmud. Thanks for
the help. I have since given up on writing my zone. I don't know if it
is because i have little time, or because i don't see what difference it
would make. It seems this game has been on a downward spiral lately.
And if you found it insulting, i'm sorry. But its the honest truth on how
i feel as a player trying to build a zone.
"Perception is reality"

Delmair Aamoren
Jhorr
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Postby Jhorr » Wed Sep 08, 2004 8:18 pm

For those who weren't there to see it for themselves, allow me summarize the world Corth is suggesting:

An admin exhibits favoritism toward a certain person who is well-liked by a few others and gives that person an artifact, or two. That person then brandishes it around (solos Forka, maybe) and gets other people really jealous. Soon, others in that persons circle of friends get an artifact too. Hey, now they can do some really amazing stuff while the majority of the MUD watches from the sidelines, except when some poor sod is needed to fill a role in the group and they join hoping to get "in" with the heros of the MUD. Rumors and claims of superiority begin to circulate around the MUD which begin to define that person and his/her clique as 'elite'. Meanwhile, newbies and mid-level people who are taken advantage of by those with the artifacts begin to realize they'll never get an artifact because they don't know an admin. Soon they begin to quit and play elsewhere. Disagreements among staff members about distributing such items of power create a schism of policy which drives certain staff members to eventually leave and work elsewhere or, hey, even start a new MUD. The players who that admin favored, in a show of solidarity to the staff member, also leave the mud never to return since the admins who are left don't like them. The MUD has a pwipe and, wow look at that, only half the people come back to play.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:04 pm

What Jhorr forgot to mention is the spectacular amounts of popcorn that get consumed.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:42 pm

Didn't i see this on an episode of "the Young and the Restless"? Seems
that artifacts worked in an earlier incarnation of toril. And back then,
i remember a couple trips that involved killing a single "big" mob in a
single zone, and Avernus was a reward. Course, crynus disintegrating
a certain artifact TWICE made that one a little more tedious to retrieve.
(just had to do the zone 3X over 3 different boots).
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Postby Kifle » Wed Sep 08, 2004 9:42 pm

You want conflict? Pkill time. That'll show those stupid ptime loggers with their triggers that sit around doing nothing. Seriously. Pkill. The mud is small enough for players to enforce things and to show a bit of self control. It would justify the need for secondary equipment in a sense because you never know when you're gonna get offed. This would in turn cause people to go to zones more and feel the need to bid on things rather than to build up a mass amount of good items to trade for a big quest item that they are too lazy to do...but then again you'd need to balance the mud to a different degree than it is now or the direction in which you are heading, so that'd probably never work because of lack of coders/coders having time.

The point is, while conflict is necessary to keep competative people around and active, tossing out random artifacts is just the wrong way to go. You don't make orange juice by throwing the oranges at the wall and hoping some juice falls in the glass, you get a damn squeezer and milk the orange for all it's worth. Artifacts wouldn't be a very effective or efficient way of producing "good" or conflict, but would probably do what jhorr explained which has been proven and tested in the past.

Corth, the base idea is great, but you need to find a different means to the end.

PS: *snore* to you to.
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Postby Botef » Wed Sep 08, 2004 10:43 pm

Not to sound stupid, but I'm gonna toss in my thoughts as a younger player. What could help this issue would be perhaps having some information on the subject thats available to new players.

I've been playing since Sojourn 3 sometime, off and on. To this day, I have no real understanding of what a Restring is, or what artifacts are about, or what any of that stuff is about.

Same goes for RP. RP sounds like lots of fun, I try to RP all the time, but frankly no one seems to want to RP back which turns me off. Perhaps this is because RPing in random run ins with lower level chars. isn't worth there time because they get nothing material out of it. Maybe its people just don't like to RP.
Seems people only RP when an rp related group is running around, like the happenings in Gloomhaven the other weekend.

To date I can think of only two individuals who have been willing to RP with me, share the current happenings, and actully have some non XP or item related fun. To date, thats my best experience in this whole mud.

So why is it we have RPing, and points for RPing, and the chance to get restrings or whatever else, but no decent explanation of how to get involved for younger players? I've had RP togged on since the day I started, and while I'm still not very high level I would think by now I would have atleast run into some RP situations not self instigated. RPing isn't fun if I have to be the one to start it all the time, especially when I know nothing compared to the people with real time on this mud.

I understand being lower lvl tends to make participating difficult. I have no issues with this. However, by not informing our younger players of what exisits beyond "You can get cool stuff RPing" as seen in the RP Rules how are any of these younger players to develop an interest that will hold them in till they reach a point where they can participate?

I think older players, and gods, need to do more to involve younger players who are interested in RP in the goings on. I don't care about rewards, or prizes, or points. I'm young and still have much to explore, but if I were to come across some meager part in a RP sphere quest, to be involved for just one moment and actully feel like a part of things - without having to tell someone "Hey, RP with me" - I'd find things a lot more interesting, and have that much more dedication to reaching as far as I can.

Even if it was nothing more than a mob talking to me, involving me in the story in some subtle way, having me do some useless task. Follow another mob or player invis, spy on people, aquire some random quack of an item for the high lvl rpers. Thats what I think is missing. A bridge between the amazing and epic, and the little people.

BTW, the lack of new areas could be due to the fact that the e-mail address for requesting area documention religiously bounces back e-mails. I've tried over the course of the last month several times, to no avail. :p
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Postby Corth » Thu Sep 09, 2004 1:05 am

Botef:

With all due respect, if you want to add input into how the mud treats new players, start your own thread. As far as I can tell, the reason new players have problems is that there aren't enough other new players around that you can get together with and explore and learn the mud with. Honestly, when I started it was a lot rougher for new players in every way except for the fact that there were plenty of us, so at least we could group up and level. Nobody really knows the reason why there aren't many new players these days. Its likely a combination of many different things, some of which are out of anyone's control. However, this thread is more about keeping the older plays happy. Every topic has its place.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Re: Worthy

Postby moritheil » Thu Sep 09, 2004 10:50 am

Uh, Klandan, I think you have it backwards.

Namely, I think you've been assuming that imms are friendly to people and thus include them in RP and the like, when the reality is that a lot of RP events have seen imms looking for people, because 90% of the MUD is off in Musp or something instead, and consequently the imms are being friendly to whomever shows up regularly instead of zoning. (For the record, that isn't me - I haven't taken place in an official RP event in about a year, perhaps.)

This isn't favoritism, it's just "the RP sphere likes people who appreciate their work." Since I've seen them drastically lower their standards time and time again to accomodate anyone who wants to come do things their way, the only "favoritism" I can see is players liking RP or not liking RP.
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Sep 09, 2004 6:06 pm

Jhorr wrote:For those who weren't there to see it for themselves, allow me summarize the world Corth is suggesting:

An admin exhibits favoritism toward a certain person who is well-liked by a few others and gives that person an artifact, or two. That person then brandishes it around (solos Forka, maybe) and gets other people really jealous. Soon, others in that persons circle of friends get an artifact too. Hey, now they can do some really amazing stuff while the majority of the MUD watches from the sidelines, except when some poor sod is needed to fill a role in the group and they join hoping to get "in" with the heros of the MUD. Rumors and claims of superiority begin to circulate around the MUD which begin to define that person and his/her clique as 'elite'. Meanwhile, newbies and mid-level people who are taken advantage of by those with the artifacts begin to realize they'll never get an artifact because they don't know an admin. Soon they begin to quit and play elsewhere. Disagreements among staff members about distributing such items of power create a schism of policy which drives certain staff members to eventually leave and work elsewhere or, hey, even start a new MUD. The players who that admin favored, in a show of solidarity to the staff member, also leave the mud never to return since the admins who are left don't like them. The MUD has a pwipe and, wow look at that, only half the people come back to play.


Excellent Summary Jhorr! You get a gold star! ;)
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Postby Grizz » Thu Sep 09, 2004 8:03 pm

EyE vs Sigil was high drama. While I was on the Sigil side of things I had great respect for the EyE folks and loved the competition between us. That was a long time ago and there were hundreds of people online at a time. I don't know if it is the drama that kept us there or not though. I do know that there were a lot of people who left when EQ came out and that the game must have taken a nose dive in population then. I can't really comment on whether or not artifacts are a good thing or not. I know I did benefit from the Kurz/Avernus quest when Thruar, Diel, and I all got Twilights. So, I am not in a position to complain about Artifacts.
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Postby Jhorr » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:37 am

Eye of Aeturnum? Is that how did you guys spelled it?
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Fri Sep 10, 2004 1:54 am

Alot of these ides are great.....but only Corth's idea (unless I missed someone else) help the problem.

The coding staff is stagnant. We can suggest great ideas and bring in new players til we are blue in the face, but it's all for nothing without another coder or a staff member that can light a fire under the coder's we have to get busy.
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Postby Jhorr » Fri Sep 10, 2004 3:54 am

Alot of these ides are great.....but only Corth's idea (unless I missed someone else) help the problem.

The coding staff is stagnant. We can suggest great ideas and bring in new players til we are blue in the face, but it's all for nothing without another coder or a staff member that can light a fire under the coder's we have to get busy.


Corth isn't suggesting that coding is the problem.
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Postby Corth » Fri Sep 10, 2004 4:14 am

Heh, there are lots of problems :)

Jhorr is right though. Getting new coders is not really the main intention of this idea. Imis described my feelings on this matter way more elequently than I ever could. Thats really the jist of it.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dlur » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:09 pm

I played back when there were artifacts.

I remember the era of Legion of Chaos and seeing the amazing things Serro could do with his artifact(s) when I was playing a wee little troll. I was so envious that I just knew I had to aspire to greater things.

I remember Eye doing their quests for their artifacts. I remember how spiffy they were. I remember hanging out with Draaz and marveling at the damage he could do with his axe, and thinking how cool Modu, Gorsh, Garosh, Deidrit, and Jaeb were, not only as characters, but also as people. I remember thinking how cool it would have been to be in their shoes, being able to do the things they could do and have experienced the quests they had done.

I remember when I started hanging out with Crimson Sigil folks and marveling at the things that Kurz could do with his Avernus. I remember how cool Sjesko was with his 'Magebane', even though all it did was globe him. I remember thinking that it had been so long since Garosh had played that it was only a matter of time before the great 'Doombringer' would be up for questing once again. I hoped and dreamed that I had made a possitive enough impact not only with my friends, but also with the MUD in general to be able to maybe have some slim chance of being in a quest for a weapon of that caliber. I remember the percieved power that CS as a group (the guild had since been broken up) as viewed by the collective rest of the MUD and how everyone strived to be as good as that, but few were able to achieve the unity, comradere, friendship, and straight-forward togetherness that we had achieved.

I remember when Trogar was allowed by the gods to wield Doombringer, and I remember being bitter...for like 2 minutes...since I wasn't even given a chance, along with the other 90-150 warriors on the MUD at the time that weren't given a chance. I say I was bitter for 2 minutes because I realized that maybe, just maybe we as a group might have some valid competition within the game finally. And we did compete. Trogar, Corth and a few others competed against us on a day-in day-out basis. Whether it was to see who could claim Jot Invasion first, finish a large quest, smite tiamat, or whatever the case may be we finally had some competition, and all was great. The competition drove us to new levels of addiction to the game and even brought older players back out of the woodwork to join in the frays.

Yes, there was a large amount of animosity. Feelings were hurt, at times. Long standing friendships were hurt at times, and new friendships with even stronger bonds were formed. People felt very close to their friends, their guildmates, and their online family. But, in the end there was competition, and in a way, the artifacts, uniques, and quests drove that competition to its frutation.

Now, after a few more incarnations of the game I count my former 'enemies' such as Corth, Trogar, etc as friends. These are people I could sit and talk to for hours at a time about nothing at all, and have a good time doing it. So obviously there was never any long-standing animosity, nor any true hatred. In the end, nobody ever held a grudge, and even though things got heated at times for the most part people took it for what it was...just another aspect of the game. That's right, a game.

So, at the end of the day I don't think bringing back artifacts will do everything that is needed to create the competition level that is necesary to draw older players out of the woodwork and keep them interested. I do, however, feel that it is a step in the right direction. I feel that handing out artifacts and uniques to key players in opposing factions would definately start a path towards creating some good competition, but along with this I think the staff needs to start realizing that making everything "fair" and "just" and using equations and quantative methods to provide rewards for a very unquantifiable game is also what leads to the game being boring for long-time players. Of course changing this would require someone to 'be the asshole' in all of this and play the favorites, and make the tough decisions required to create the level of competition that would not only keep long-standing players interested, but also draw retired folks out of the woodwork and give younger players something to strive for.
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Postby Cordan » Fri Sep 10, 2004 6:15 pm

I've been around long enough to see exactly was Corth was talking about. When I got here in 95, it was balls to the wall, bitchin fun. Cool things all over the place. I remember looking up at the elite of the elite and seeing their eq and saying "oh hell yeah" and playing twice as hard to try and get there. Then as time grew on, and I started to take interest in the politics of the game, and I loved it. I argued on the boards and game all the time. It was something that made the blood run hot. I loved it. I've never had an artifact, and frankly don't care. If you earn it, you earn it, good for you. Just because you can solo a high level zone with an arti or something doesn't mean I'm gonna get jealous. I could care less.

Lately, the mud is boring. Everyone has the same shit. 75% of the players have 1+ level 50 char it seems. No one talks on the boards anymore. There's a fraction of the people who play.

With god favoritism, artifacts, and politics, yeah, there were lots of fights, hard times, but there were also some damn fun times. It was a game people could get passionate about. A game we could mentally get something out of. A game that people loved to play. A LOT of people. I'm sure everyone, EVERYONE, who lived through those days got upset and nearly quit on several occasions. But most if not all came back and one point or another. Controlled drama, controlled politics, controlled chaos is a wonderful thing sometimes.

If you have no passion for what you do, or there's nothing to be passionate about, it gets old real quick, and you find yourself looking for other things to do.
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Postby Dalar » Fri Sep 10, 2004 8:09 pm

Dugmaren wrote:K first off don't take this as staff support of the idea. BUT, I'm interested to know what you think would make someone worthy of getting an artifact, or a relic?

Dug


How about put it in new zones? Or put one in every 2 months into a random spot in game and have people hunt for it?
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:30 pm

Jhorr wrote:
Alot of these ides are great.....but only Corth's idea (unless I missed someone else) help the problem.

The coding staff is stagnant. We can suggest great ideas and bring in new players til we are blue in the face, but it's all for nothing without another coder or a staff member that can light a fire under the coder's we have to get busy.


Corth isn't suggesting that coding is the problem.


Corth wrote:One good place to start would be to start handing out in-game rewards to people willing to spend 10-15 hours a week coding improvements to the mud.


I know coding isn't the WHOLE problem, but the statement above is what struck me as the most reasonable. I just don't see arbitrarily handing out artifacts doing anything positive for the mud.
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Postby Corth » Fri Sep 10, 2004 9:52 pm

Exactly, Cordan.

Interestingly enough, its the older players (except jhorr) who have played this mud when it had artis, politics, and favoritism, who are all weighing in favor of it.
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Kifle » Sun Sep 12, 2004 9:48 am

Honestly, corth, this idea is decent. Like I said earlier, it wouldn't accomplish what you want in a major way. It might make a few things interesting, but back then the pbase was already big. Now you have to look at things in a way to get more players rather than keep players. There's not much to work with at this point, unfortunately. Take the idea of the mud needing some sort of conflict driven competition and make it better rather than hanging onto the idea that artifacts would really make any semblance of a dent into the shrinking pbase/stagnation of the mud. You are over-personalizing the situation. While artifacts worked for you and your crowd back in the day, it didn't work for me and my crowd. Some of us could have really cared less what so and so was doing with this and that. I started playing here because of the economy and a few of my friends played here. The inner competition as to who could get the best stuff first, or make the best trades, or reach 30 first is what drove us, not being 'the best' with artifacts. Now, while I understand that most players have the best items...well, most do really, artifacts would probably create that drive, but only under certain circumstances. One of those not being arbitrary handouts. Arbitrary handouts will most often only work in situations when there are a good number of people. When you have a small number of people those people need a quantifiable goal to shoot for or they will probably see not much of a point to continue playing if there is no way to get 'doombringer'.

Conclusion:

These are new days, man. What worked in the past doesn't necessarily mean it will work now. While the the primal drives are still inherent in those that play these types of games, you have to find ideas what will work given the present framework of the environment. I know for a fact you can think of something better, Corth.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Sep 12, 2004 3:12 pm

Can't say i have a comment as to my personal opinion of arti's and
whatnot, but from your argument AGAINST them, kifle, i don't see why
they would be such a big deal. If they worked for a type of player like
corth, perhaps we will draw those kinds of players. If they didn't work
for players like you, perhaps you wouldn't go and seek them. But would
they really have a NEGATIVE impact on your playing? I'd say probbably
not. *shrug* it's an idea. And i think everyone can agree that what
this mud needs is some kind of jump-start, what we can't agree on is how
this jump-start should/could happen.


Del
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Postby Imis9 » Sun Sep 12, 2004 4:56 pm

I do agree it shouldn't be a straight hand out. The old quests involved long quests over months. It used to involve lots of deaths and giving up items. Lastly, they largely dealt with lots of rp'ing. Let's assume a group of 15 is questing. One would assume the result of this long quest might be 1 to 3 artifacts with maybe 3 to 5 uniques given out with consolation prizes given to the rest of the group. One thing I liked back in the day was also the idea of mixed groups. For Ilshad's Fade, Tag's Hammer, and my Rod, we had a quest group made up of people from various factions and guilds on the mud. I think this really helped to bring the storyline of that quest alive.
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Postby Mitharx » Mon Sep 13, 2004 3:23 am

Just fyi: I'm an old player and against it too. I like the way things are more now, but it's just my opinion. Some of this probably comes from the bitterness of being caged by certain immortals for doing nothing while the favored players get away with hell. And yeah, I know you're not suggesting that. I'm just rambling.
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and everything single post by Ihazim

Postby muma » Fri Sep 17, 2004 3:03 pm

Ihazim wrote:I agree with corth.


I agree with ihazim.
Es gibt keinen Löffel!
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Postby sifu_augustin » Fri Sep 17, 2004 4:11 pm

excellent point, muma. how would u like to learn some kung fu?
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Postby Sifu Augustin » Fri Sep 17, 2004 5:43 pm

sifu_augustin wrote:excellent point, muma. how would u like to learn some kung fu?

Stop impersonating me already. :(
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Truly amazing

Postby Tol » Fri Sep 17, 2004 7:44 pm

Hah! I picked a good day to reminisce via a message board.

Just as it was way back when, Corth is stating things directly, toeing the line the gods have drawn. In a way, god politics never left, Corth, but you're too good at them to even notice you're playing!

As an old-time cs versus whatever-the-hell-we-were-called-but-crappy-guild-versus-clan-rules-didn't-let-us-all-be-in-the-same-group-so-we-never-made-one-as-an-example-of-god-favortism , I must say that Corth has once again directly stated the problem (not to mention a truly classicly hilarious post, with *puke*). We didn't play back in the day to get some mathematical forumla down, we played to *win*. I remember fighting against Dlur on the other side, and though back then he was as truly evil a person as could be; I'm sure he's a swell guy nowadays. It's like the high school drama that never ended.

I remember those moments of what we thought were outright EVIL favortism. I got the first-ever downgraded twilight, which wasn't quite as good as that blue ansi mithril hammer, but it did float! Imagine how much our guild fought for invasion after that--without twilights (which a lot of cs had, we had none), we NEEDED that extra couple of points of damage. It was LIFE AND DEATH.

I remember when, our group doing tiamat for the first time, corth and I camped in the moonshaes, doing some ridiculous quest for days on end. I would sit, with a level 41 assassin which, because it did not have Ilshadrial's dagger, was utterly useless except to pick small locks (such as this quest had). The quest ended in a staff with 3 charges, 'a silver staff', which healed the first 20 people in a room and weighed 10 pounds. I got more than 100 of them, and the repop time was, i believe, 45 minutes. Corth would locate object on an intermediate quest item, a rotting bag or something, and find it on newbies, then give them tinker bags for the rotting bag so he could dump it in the lake and the quest would repop. By the end of it, my lowly barbarian corpse was once attempted to be dragged from the jot jarls by Glaman, that troll shaman with the hilariously ever-decreasing constitution score (which was reset to 75 in another example of god favortism that everyone said was perfectly warranted but secretly hated and was pissed off about), to Glaman's death--my corpse, with the silver staves in hand, was just too heavy.

We did indeed go on to finish tiamat (thanks largely to the silver staves), the first non-cs tiamat run in forever, after which Mask made a snide comment about it taking 35 people to do it. I won 2 bids (one for my oh-so-deserved portable hole, and one bid in absentia for Verarb). My antics with the silver staves got a coincedental 'rules clarification' courtesy miax one day as I logged on, globaled to everyone. But we didn't care, we were PUMPED! We had done TIA! We were in the BIG TIME NOW!

I remember trying to do quests for clan members (you can always use another glober, right?) with corth in the sorceror's tower, which would result in people ressurecting 15.corth first, lest one rot away. No one had a 15.anything after the pwipe--what was the hurry?

So why am I rambling like this? Certainly, I'm not going to come back and play (high school is over for me!). But the point is that when the pwipe came, and the original forgers threw up their hands in disgust, and after that, it was different. exp took decades to complete for an invoker or warrior, and god forbid for an enchanter ( I think it's still this way, but who knows). Gods now had a code of conduct that prevented such things, and artifacts and the like were never to be given out again, lest such childish antics continue.

And you know what? It sucked. It was a math puzzle, and you could see the solution at level 50 from level 1, except it took 2 years to get there. No one raced for zones, they instead took peaceful conflict-resolution classes and went off to do other zones, each with crappier equipment, ever being downgraded lest someone start to have fun.

There was no reason to play. There was no game. There was only watching the numbers grow; I took up progress quest (progressquest.com) instead, got a real job, and moved on with life (I've since degraded into a college student again, but you get the idea).

There was no 15.corth anymore (well, maybe corth, but no one else, not even 12.whoever I bet!!). There was no more who can do this first, fastest, best, at all--it was so much more...efficient...to do other stuff. Yawn. Or, in the words of corth, *puke*.

Some people left for reasons unrelated to the game, and people always will. And people don't show up anew because college kids can do whatever they want in their dorm rooms now, and why do it in text? Some of the bigger players were done after the pwipe and had no desire to build up another empire. But there were a lot in there, me included, who just...drifted...away....

Frankly I'm surprised the mud has lasted as long as it has without some of this excitement. I'm even more surprised that Corth and Verarb don't play, since there are no longer any buttless chaps to turn them on, but truth is stranger than fiction.

tol / ben / aol cabaldashtwo / blavender ta gmail.com
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Postby Verarb » Sat Sep 18, 2004 1:00 am

Wow, heya Tol.
MUD!
Give tol an arti.
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Postby Corth » Sat Sep 18, 2004 5:54 am

Tol,

You brought back some great memories for me.

We really did take the game seriously back then. I remember feeling incredibly proud whenever we beat CS even though they had all the artifacts and god mortals among them. I got suspended a week once for stealing Glammad from Toddrick and it was so fucking worth it. That was probably the beginning of the stupid invasion rules that ruined the zone. But thats besides the point. What you illustrated was how politics, artifacts, and god favoritism added an element to the game that cannot be replaced by zone difficulty evaluation formulas and the like. For lack of a better way of putting it - mathematical. I think this is the reason I was baiting Dornax so much earlier in the wipe. I wanted to stoke the competitive fires a bit. But it didn't work very well. It was artificial in the sense that there really wasn't much to fight about. Alas, no matter what happens I will never be able to play this mud again. Too old.. too many responsibilities. But I kind of feel bad that others can't experience what we experienced... even if they argue against it. They don't know what they're missing.

Anyway, it was great to hear from you again. Stop in more often.

Gene
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Dugmaren » Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:38 am

Corth YOU asked for the equipment system espousing risk vs. reward, and with the above concensus that things are mathematical now, let me begin with "Thank-you".

I don't think artifacts, systems, favoratism, or cheating have anything to do with why you all played so much back then. I think it's because there were enough people that competition was formed. Were you really playing harder so you could get an artifact (knowing there was favoritism), or were you playing to beat CS despite not being favored?

Correct me if I'm wrong because I didn't play until the end of that era, but I'm guessing the atmosphere you're all talking about was around because several hundred PEOPLE had the time to play that much. Would giving Dartan, Lilithelle, Sservis, Gura, or hell lets make it really biased, Touk, an artifact make you play more? Would screwing over 95% of the population and then giving secrets to the rest make you play more?

I bet not. Further, I bet what WOULD make you play more (assuming you had time to play around work and family) is 45 players from EQ, WoW, Homelands, or Duris who decided they'd all start playing here and showing you how it's REALLY done. We need more people playing, so if you want "the old days of competition, backstabbing, etc" convince a friend or 2 to play, and either keep them playing, or give the gods a list of reasons they're not interested.

Dugmaren
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Postby Dalar » Sat Sep 18, 2004 6:59 am

Dugmaren wrote:Corth YOU asked for the equipment system espousing risk vs. reward, and with the above concensus that things are mathematical now, let me begin with "Thank-you".

I don't think artifacts, systems, favoratism, or cheating have anything to do with why you all played so much back then. I think it's because there were enough people that competition was formed. Were you really playing harder so you could get an artifact (knowing there was favoritism), or were you playing to beat CS despite not being favored?

Correct me if I'm wrong because I didn't play until the end of that era, but I'm guessing the atmosphere you're all talking about was around because several hundred PEOPLE had the time to play that much. Would giving Dartan, Lilithelle, Sservis, Gura, or hell lets make it really biased, Touk, an artifact make you play more? Would screwing over 95% of the population and then giving secrets to the rest make you play more?

I bet not. Further, I bet what WOULD make you play more (assuming you had time to play around work and family) is 45 players from EQ, WoW, Homelands, or Duris who decided they'd all start playing here and showing you how it's REALLY done. We need more people playing, so if you want "the old days of competition, backstabbing, etc" convince a friend or 2 to play, and either keep them playing, or give the gods a list of reasons they're not interested.

Dugmaren


I don't think adding artifacts will up the playerbase. The problem with this game is that there's nothing to strive for and it's incredibly easy/boring. Defense = -100 ac before agi bonus and blur. Offense = invoker. Send tanks, nuke, win. No point in doing zones past tier 2 zones either because they're too time consuming and the equipment isn't really worth it. Also, tier 3 zones are boring as hell with the same fight x10.

I also don't think 45 players from EQ coming here would do squat. So what if they do the two zones (BC/IC2) that people don't do. All they will get is a pat on the back knowing they wasted 6-12 hours getting the one or two items that are actually worth wearing from both zones.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Corth » Sat Sep 18, 2004 2:21 pm

Dug:

I was definately in favor of making eq stats reflect the difficulty of the zone. I made very clear at the time, however, my opinion that it would be impossible to objectively measure zone difficulty. Additionally, your weighted system that uses exponentially more points as eq gets better, basically ends up smoothing out stats so that items are closer to the baseline norm. Anything that is too good would use all the 'points' for the zone. I was never in favor of removing diversity from eq.

Which is all besides the point. We're talking about creating competition on this mud. You might be right.. 50 people might not be enough. I have no idea really. It certainly got to 50 for a reason... it used to be higher. But the past is the past. I do know that unless you give people something to play for that is more than just making their eq look nifty, or getting that high level, then you will never have much going on here.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
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Postby Tol » Sat Sep 18, 2004 3:42 pm

Yes, verarb, yes--give me an arti!

who do you play as now? have you any sort of aim/icq/whatever?




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Postby moritheil » Tue Mar 15, 2005 7:56 am

Dalar wrote:
Dugmaren wrote:K first off don't take this as staff support of the idea. BUT, I'm interested to know what you think would make someone worthy of getting an artifact, or a relic?

Dug


How about put it in new zones? Or put one in every 2 months into a random spot in game and have people hunt for it?


I'll do you one better. We want new blood, right?

Make the artifacts unwieldable by level 50 characters, and make them spawn in very difficult zones that have an upper level cap of, say, 45.

You could always argue that the artifacts will simply wind up in the hands of those who make alts to get them. It's possible. But for spellcasters at least, that last circle of spells should be worth more to a group than an artifact that only helps you personally, so it will keep getting passed on by people moving up in levels, to say nothing of the actual competition for it.

More broadly speaking, however, Dug is right. The presence of a few hundred more n00bs would do wonders beyond what any artifact system would achieve.
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Postby Deltin » Tue Mar 15, 2005 5:33 pm

Lilithelle wrote:I believe strongly in egalitarianism and I think I have some skill. Its lack of egalitarianism that drives players away, you start giving out artifact and the like and those will be the people who will get into groups. Those people without will be marginalized, how are they to develop skills if not allowed to participate.

I'm not sure how giving skilled players even more of an advantage is supposed to make the game more fulfilling, it is challenge that makes the game interesting. If your bored with things try doing more with less.
Lilithelle


It's the whole "the rich get richer, and the poor get poorer" thing. I agree with Lilithelle. What you will have is totally decked out groups doing zones, more so than you have now. People who aren't decked out to the max will be passed by in favor of someone who is. Truely it's become a game of gear instead of skill and good playing.
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Postby Lahgen » Tue Mar 15, 2005 9:17 pm

It seems to me that perhaps what we're really looking for is something to feel passionate for in this game. To me, that doesn't require artifacts or god favoritism or high drama in an out-of-character sense. I don't know what would work for everyone, but for me (and others, like Botef) I like roleplaying because it helps me feel that sense of drama that is missing from other things.

Of course, roleplaying isn't the only way to get passion from the game, and to a certain degree, the lack of enthusiasm I have is my own fault, because of my own laziness. I think if I started doing more quests, that would help me get the enthusiasm to truly enjoy this game. I know I had some fun yesterday doing part of a quest on airship, and I could probably benefit from doing more of that sort of thing.
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Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
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Postby Ruhr » Thu Mar 17, 2005 5:35 am

Toril One was the best gaming experiences of my life. I would forgo food, sleep, sex, everything and race home to log in.

I started playing during one pkill Christmas around the time of troubles and 300 people would be regularly logged in every night. As a new player I started out as a serf. The elite, the nobility of the MUD wanted nothing to do with me, and that was fine. I didn't want egalitarianism; that's not what real life is like. You can't go knock on Donald Trump's door and expect to be greeted. That a society, a hierarchy, existed helped create a sense of realism in the game world.

Eventually I was elevated up to this elite level. I had the pleasure of guilding with some of the best players the game has spawned.

And I got caught up in the hatred and rivalry between Trolan and Corth and the remnants of CS. It was high drama, and every night the battle was joined with brisk military efficiency.

I would log in, and get a tell from Toddrick "Farmhouse" and damn if I didn't run like hell up the turning point to our staging area.

Was it about the eq, about the artifacts? Yes I think Corth has a point in part.

I remember soloing all of the Astral plane with Kurz and one caster. He had Avernus at the time -- and it was truly a legendary experience, rescuing him when he got low, watching the sword proc and bite into an astral demon, sucking the vitality out of it and boosting Kurz's HP to 1300+

I was on the sidelines when Tagad soloed Chloracrida, I'd never seen the guy so happy in all the months I'd played with him -- the grumpiest mofo you ever met, and he was dancing a f'ing jig in the gray cloak hills. Hilarious.

But I really don't think these glory days will ever come again. Artifacts or not.

With anything truly unique, as what we all had back then, it was the random alignment of a number of factors.

Kris and Mystra, for all their faults, really did a hell of a job making that place what it was. Kris, I'm sure, intentionally played CS and EA, etc against one another, one is reminded of George R.R. Martin's amazing short story, "Sand Kings" where a curio salesman sells a unique species of creature to a bored billionaire; the species is termed, "sand kings" for their fierce, warlike tendencies. Using all elements of their environment they built two opposing forts in the miniature sand cage, and were positioned to war against one another incessantly by the cruel billionaire -- Initially the sand kings build their forts in the likeness of their owner; smiling, benevolent, but as the death toll rises, and more and more of the sand kings die in the clashes orchestrated by the evil owner, the visages of the sand castles transform to hideous renditions of the man.

Eventually they break out of their cage and grow exponentially eventually killing the man and turning his estate into a giant battleground.

The point is kris was like the main protagonist in the story, he pitted us against one another, and we fought and had high drama. Even if today we had the raw material (and you'd be hard pressed to come up with people as smart, motivated and talented as we had back then) the same dynamic could not be achieved, artifacts or not.

The new mud, while fundamentally superior (in stability and zone size) will never in its current form hold a candle to Toril One because of these reasons.

I do hope, and I will keep coming back periodically to see, if this raw material does enter the game, and I hope that the present administration has the sense to make good use of it if this does happen.

Ruhr
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Postby Dalar » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:46 pm

I think an important aspect is competition. Sojourn3 was fun in the beginning for me because of the DSR/Imphras rivalry. After that cooled down.. we all started holding each others' hands and playing nice. That was great too, but there is no sense of thrill or excitement to this game anymore. We're playing against an AI we have a complete understanding of.

This is the exact same reason why I went to a PvP server in WoW. Pure PvE (Player vs Environment) is only fun when the content creators are releasing good content. With some sort of competition (PvP, guild vs guild), a PvE game becomes less stale. Unfortunately, this game is falling short of "good" content and no competition.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Corth » Thu Mar 17, 2005 6:58 pm

Heh, im surprised this old thread got dredged up. I think Ruhr made excellent points about how Miax played off different groups against each other to create more drama and excitement. The politics, rivalries, and competition, while not for everyone, made the game very interesting for many of us.

What first got me interested in muds was an article I read in college about one mud in particular, which was set up in such a manner that the gods had their own little sub-game and tried to increase the power of their followers in various ways in order to further their own agenda. I'm a competitive person by nature, and the inherrent politics of such a dynamic appealed to me.

Besides all the balance issues that the current mud has, i think the single biggest thing that we lack is a reason to be competitive. In our egalitarian mud, where no group has any particular advantage (either through special equipment, i.e. artifacts, or leaked knowledge), there is no reason to be competitive at all. This takes something away from the experience. It just becomes an endless grind to get your fifth alt to level 50, with a suit of the same eq that everyone else has.

I think its interesting that for the most part, its the older players who are saying that they enjoyed the competitiveness of sojourn/toril I, while its mostly the players who came afterwords who are strongly in favor of fairness and egalitarianism. I think that if you weren't part of what was going on back then, its difficult to understand how fun it could be.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:12 pm

the pbase is shrinking because:

Eq
EQ 2
Lineage
Lineage 2
City of Heroes
dark age of camelot
world of warcraft
asheron's call
anarchy online
rubies of eventide (few private servers)
et al


the only other options 6 years ago were other muds, and it was a crapshoot to find one that was decent as a game AND would last more than a few months.
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Postby Ruhr » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:24 pm

Teyaha wrote:the pbase is shrinking because:

Eq
EQ 2
Lineage
Lineage 2
City of Heroes
dark age of camelot
world of warcraft
asheron's call
anarchy online
rubies of eventide (few private servers)
et al


the only other options 6 years ago were other muds, and it was a crapshoot to find one that was decent as a game AND would last more than a few months.


I disagree. Those games aren't nearly as immersive or social as a text MUD. The pbase dissapeared on this mud because:

1) a certain female and a certain immortal were caught having a mud romance by said immortal's SO, and logs were posted.

2) certain immortals felt they should fix something that wasn't broken and nerfed all the game's EQ/Got rid of perm haste items, and elevated invokers. The diaspora happened before the advent of MMORGPs with Soj2. I'm not sure whose idiotic idea this new mud balance scheme was (i'll call it Invoker World) but I do remember mystra griping about how "over powered" stats were, so I assume she started the raping of the item data base. I think certain immortals had a problem with conjurer pets as well, so they ruined that class also.

Here's a hint, if you have a successful mud, don't throw out the baby with the bath water and destroy the game just for some stupid fancy.

3) Riders of Twilight had it's charter yanked after a kangaroo court with Lloth and Mystra, so one side of the competition equation all quit or were forced to leave the game.

Notice how all of the above has fuckall to do with Everquest, etc.

PS Corth I like the idea of a private game w/ the imms to see who they can recruit. Maybe if this mud had a flag system so that you could denote who you worshiped and then be cast into that lot of players, so it would be warfare based on religion between two or more sets of pantheons, and the winning immortals would have the most adherants, so it would encourage them to get involved in the game, offering/writing quests etc to lure new worshipers. very cool idea.
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Postby Teyaha » Thu Mar 17, 2005 8:56 pm

Ruhr wrote:
Teyaha wrote:the pbase is shrinking because:

Eq
EQ 2
Lineage
Lineage 2
City of Heroes
dark age of camelot
world of warcraft
asheron's call
anarchy online
rubies of eventide (few private servers)
et al


the only other options 6 years ago were other muds, and it was a crapshoot to find one that was decent as a game AND would last more than a few months.


I disagree. Those games aren't nearly as immersive or social as a text MUD. The pbase dissapeared on this mud because:

1) a certain female and a certain immortal were caught having a mud romance by said immortal's SO, and logs were posted.

2) certain immortals felt they should fix something that wasn't broken and nerfed all the game's EQ/Got rid of perm haste items, and elevated invokers. The diaspora happened before the advent of MMORGPs with Soj2. I'm not sure whose idiotic idea this new mud balance scheme was (i'll call it Invoker World) but I do remember mystra griping about how "over powered" stats were, so I assume she started the raping of the item data base. I think certain immortals had a problem with conjurer pets as well, so they ruined that class also.

Here's a hint, if you have a successful mud, don't throw out the baby with the bath water and destroy the game just for some stupid fancy.

3) Riders of Twilight had it's charter yanked after a kangaroo court with Lloth and Mystra, so one side of the competition equation all quit or were forced to leave the game.

Notice how all of the above has fuckall to do with Everquest, etc.

PS Corth I like the idea of a private game w/ the imms to see who they can recruit. Maybe if this mud had a flag system so that you could denote who you worshiped and then be cast into that lot of players, so it would be warfare based on religion between two or more sets of pantheons, and the winning immortals would have the most adherants, so it would encourage them to get involved in the game, offering/writing quests etc to lure new worshipers. very cool idea.


well i dunno about point 1. i mean i didnt know about 1 until yousaid it. i knew about narrisse/kia having a relationship but that was back during toril 1.

the eq thing was just retarded and never addressed the core balance issue of this GAME - melee vs. caster damage. i'm sure if it's fixed the folks that left for this reason will be back unless they are too engrossed in the other mud or mmorpg they're playing now.


riders of twilight was also a small percentage of the pbase overall. it was wrong and not everyone is privy to the details.

however because of the other choices, including mmorpg's, anyone who is slightly wronged here and finds happiness there won't be back. if they weren't around as options these people would be back sooner if ever.
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Postby Ruhr » Thu Mar 17, 2005 9:13 pm

Teyaha wrote:well i dunno about point 1. i mean i didnt know about 1 until yousaid it. i knew about narrisse/kia having a relationship but that was back during toril 1.

the eq thing was just retarded and never addressed the core balance issue of this GAME - melee vs. caster damage. i'm sure if it's fixed the folks that left for this reason will be back unless they are too engrossed in the other mud or mmorpg they're playing now.


riders of twilight was also a small percentage of the pbase overall. it was wrong and not everyone is privy to the details.

however because of the other choices, including mmorpg's, anyone who is slightly wronged here and finds happiness there won't be back. if they weren't around as options these people would be back sooner if ever.



I don't know who you are/were, I'm asuming you were someone peripherial... but it doesn't appear that you've bothered to read this thread, so let me summarize.

RoT was NOT a small part of the MUD. As Corth pointed out, the competition between his group and our group was the life blood of the MUD -- it made things interesting for the elites, and more importantly their leaders, who otherwise, without the direct PvP competition would have quit long before hand. So when RoT was fucked over by Kris and Mystra it ruined the core dynamic of the MUD. And while the death throes have taken awhile, it still was the death blow.
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Shevarash
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Postby Shevarash » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:09 pm

This vaunted spirit of unbridled competition also leads to things like rampant, sneering elitism and vast dramas that cross over into personal lives and force mud shutdowns.

See the rest of this thread for examples of both :P

I will concede that a measure of competition is healthy for a game, especially a MUD, but holding up examples of the past history of Soj/Toril as an ideal we should strive for is seriously flawed.
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Postby Ruhr » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:28 pm

Shevarash wrote:This vaunted spirit of unbridled competition also leads to things like rampant, sneering elitism and vast dramas that cross over into personal lives and force mud shutdowns.

See the rest of this thread for examples of both :P

I will concede that a measure of competition is healthy for a game, especially a MUD, but holding up examples of the past history of Soj/Toril as an ideal we should strive for is seriously flawed.


Shev,

It's easy to dismiss the criticisms in this thread casually, but that doesn't change the fact that your pbase has shrunk every time I log in (twice a year or so..).

Nothing personal, but you need to make some changes or this trend will continue.

That you all didn't take Corth's artifact suggestions seriously shows how your staff fails to understand what attracts and keeps players to a MUD and it sure ain't the carebear egalitarianism BS that exists today.
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Postby Ashiwi » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:36 pm

And you honestly think that you and your friends getting dissed was the reason the pbase dropped? Sorry, I missed your water-to-wine party, since I was just a peripheral.
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