Bring back artifacts, politics and god favoritism

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Ruhr
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ruhr » Thu Mar 17, 2005 10:58 pm

Ashiwi wrote:And you honestly think that you and your friends getting dissed was the reason the pbase dropped? Sorry, I missed your water-to-wine party, since I was just a peripheral.


I really don't know how skilled a player you are/were Ashiwi but the self-righteous indignation act sure speaks of someone who feels/felt excluded...

At any rate, the "elitism" and rivalry was really all just an act, as was stated earlier in this thread: we were playing roles -- roles that reversed as old enemies became friends later when new battle lines were drawn.

I can really only speak for myself here, and this is all ancient history -- but you might notice that I cited the drastic code changes, eq stat downgrades, and design philosophy shift as a large part of the pbase decline as well...
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:11 am

Over half the real evils quit to play homelands and came back *peer*

Any kind of god intervention has the potential to cause people to quit. I've heard about gods helping players figure out quests with subtle hints (still hints) and gods dragging corpses out of zones, all these kinds of things can be more than enough reason for person X on the outside to quit, but look at the other side, broken quests and losing all your gear is enough reason for person y to quit.

*****************

I hate artifacts and uniques, mostly because i never get them and it allows someone else to do something i can't. However, I definitely think artifacts have their place.

For instance if your creating your own mud and the group size target is 10 but you only have active 5 players you give them artifacts to make up the difference. Not only does it endear them to your mud, but it allows them to do the content that should require more people, and it encourages other people to play. As the pbase grows you scale them back and remove them when your tired of fielding its unfair flames. There are valid uses for artifacts and to say that they are unconditionally wrong is very close minded.

Miax was a bastard at times, but Miax once said the artifact doesn't make the player. The player makes the artifact and he was absolutely right. Artifacts in the hands of cool people is a cool thing for the whole mud, artifacts in the hands of a person with no balance and perspective is bad. Let me try and give some examples.

Toddrick's rod had god ress on it like 1x per day or something (no ress effects). Now Toddrick could've setup a ress bot and allowed anyone who wanted a 100% ress to just tell him while he was idle and that wouldve been a bad bad thing. On the other hand he actually mostly reserved it for worthy people and it sped up the times when he was leading and one moron would die... click and moving right along without ress effects.

Another example we had early this wipe was hide cloak + sneak boots combo. Virtually god like power. Now instead of being judicious with what people did with it they did stupid things like sit idle in agro zones with hide trigger for hours, twink every piece of eq they could every single boot, and lots of other stupid shit. What happened was perfectly natural in the hands of an unbalanced undeserving player and it didn't really have anything to do with the item being too powerful. It was abused and that necessitated its removal.

CP quest orb was godly for a while too... a transportation method that ignored all barriers and would transport you to Calishman desert. How many corpses were recovered with this item, how many situations did it resolve player side without god intervention... Then folks started abusing it. Using it to twink zones and difficulties. Not once, not a few times, but seriously abused it. So it got fixed (reportedly).

I am much less in favor of having a "fair" distribution of artifacts in terms of random chance or first to do a zone or whatever than I am with gods handing out artifacts to people who are mature enough not to abuse them or break the game with them by exploiting every opportunity every day.

A person like the old Dartan is probably not a good choice for an artifact because he would twink everything possible and break the game as much as he could. A person like Gromikazer probably would be a good choice. A person like Diac is probably a good choice, a person like Lilithelle though worthy and mature doesn't need one even though she probably "deserves" it.

The person has always made the artifact and things really broke down when the gods tried to make the distribution of artifacts fair (or got blackmailed).

***************

The kind of elitism that we had 10 years ago was entertaining at my level as a peon. It was i suppose neither good and bad, probably a little of both. But back in those days you belonged to a group of people, you weren't a free lance mercenary as we are mostly today. When a guild picked you up, its like you had finally arrived. You had a guaranteed spot in groups, oh jot in progress, sorry xyz your out grouping a guildie. It gave you a reason to mud. I languised a long time trying to figure out why i still mudded, but when I found a group of people who i liked and liked me everything got much better.

If anything degraded over time it is the players. We will do anything for the next piece of eq trade secret quest information anything for what we want. We give up our friends, pass on guild groups, tell secrets whatever it takes to get whatever it is that you want.

Besides respect for ourselves, the most important thing toril has lost are leaders and figures of power. These are the handful of people, leaders, who entertain your pbase at large. Without the leaders you have a bunch of people sitting on their ass at 3w or exping their 8th alt to 50... Where is the reward for leaders?

Leaders have continually lost incentive over the years. They used to claim with no rebuttal, they used to enjoy prestige, they used to loot zone cash... Now they have to war with their members over bidding practices and deal with the afk zoner.

Really, why lead... which is really saying why make the effort to entertain other players?
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Fri Mar 18, 2005 12:49 am

Ruhr wrote:I really don't know how skilled a player you are/were Ashiwi but...


I'll answer that for you, Rurh. She's the best damned rogue this mud has seen. She can do things most of us could only dream about.
Vigis
Sojourner
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Postby Vigis » Fri Mar 18, 2005 1:34 am

Nice post Kiryan. I remember those days, I also remember being ready to quit playing until PotS recruited me. . .that is what got me hooked.

Oh and Ruhr, if memory serves me correctly, the log you referred to a few posts back was proven to be doctored, not only by Miax and Mystra, but also by other players. It is also what lead to the shut down...
Ashiwi
Sojourner
Posts: 4161
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Ashiwi » Fri Mar 18, 2005 3:18 am

Piffle Thilindel (my apologies!), Pava kicks my ass (but thank you, and remind to pay you later). I was fortunate enough to find a group of people that I really enjoyed spending time with, and who work very well together. I consider myself to be one of the very fortunate ones in this game, because I fell in with them early on.

I think the screwing over of the "core group" was only a symptom of a larger issue, and whether they remained together or not, the mud would still be hitting this point today. After numerous wipes, and now a long haul, with the original players growing up and new players oriented towards a more visual gaming culture, less time, more responsibilities, it was bound to happen.

And core or "peripheral," this game relies on all its players to succeed. The staff, as well, and the staff here and now are doing an awesome job; kudos to them for taking a licking and keeping on ticking.

And good points all, Kiryan. Taken to heart.
Gormal tells you 'im a dwarven onion'
Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

Inama ASSOC:: 'though it may suit your fantasies to think so, i don't need oil for anything.'

Haley: Filthy lucre? I wash that lucre every day until it SHINES!
Ruhr
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ruhr » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:12 am

Ashiwi wrote:And core or "peripheral," this game relies on all its players to succeed. The staff, as well, and the staff here and now are doing an awesome job; kudos to them for taking a licking and keeping on ticking.


Ashiwi,

nothing personal, but the new matriarchal toril sucketh. I'm sorry that you take exception to me pointing out the faults in the current tyranny of mediocrity, but I'd rather you didn't piss on my nostalgia.

See you all in another year. Maybe.
Dalar
Sojourner
Posts: 4905
Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Dalar » Fri Mar 18, 2005 9:39 am

Thilindel wrote:
Ruhr wrote:I really don't know how skilled a player you are/were Ashiwi but...


I'll answer that for you, Rurh. She's the best damned rogue this mud has seen. She can do things most of us could only dream about.

Uh.. Nokie
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
Aremat group-says 'tanks i highly suggest investing 20 silver in training weapons from cm to cut down on the losing scales to shield'
Selzan
Sojourner
Posts: 26
Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 7:40 pm
Location: NYC
Contact:

Postby Selzan » Fri Mar 18, 2005 6:06 pm

Ruhr wrote:3) Riders of Twilight had it's charter yanked after a kangaroo court with Lloth and Mystra, so one side of the competition equation all quit or were forced to leave the game.

Notice how all of the above has fuckall to do with Everquest, etc.


Hey Ruhr, good to see you again. I agree with most of what you've said -- and posted to that effect a few months ago when Corth first started this discussion.

As far as the CS/RoT theory, I do think that you are right to a certain extent -- this MUD lacks competition right now, and it's not only limited to the size of the pbase. Instead, it relates directly to the attitude of the players who are at the top of the pbase, and their willingness (or lack thereof) to escalate rivalries to the point where the drama becomes real and tangible. A pbase of 40 can be just as brutal as a pbase of 300, given, of course, that the playstyles of those 40 people are relentess and ruthless. When RoT disappeared, those competitive fires largely left the MUD -- I'd say for the worst, though I'm sure many would disagree.

VADIS(!!) is also right for pointing out that, when it came to the drama, many of us were just playing our designated roles. After Soj1 closed, I wound up officering a sojourn-based guild over on EQ with Tagad, one of my most bitter rivals from Soj1. To this day, I am still guilded with him in WoW, and consider him to be one of the best friends I've met online.

The point being, in-game rivalries aren't necessarily bad, so long as you don't take them personally -- people do what they can to make the game competitive, which naturally leads to a sour taste from those who are either on the outside looking in, or those who eventually let the stress/competitiveness get the better of them. I've tried my best to get some serious rivalries going on Soj3, but the current pbase/gods just aren't willing to let it happen -- which, in my opinion, is a real shame (though I'm sure many would disagree).

Even if nothing else changes, it's still always nice to reminisce ...

Sarkhon, Selzan, et al
Verarb
Sojourner
Posts: 191
Joined: Thu Feb 01, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Verarb » Fri Mar 18, 2005 7:44 pm

Sark! Give sark an arti.
give alla Lors an arti!




P.S. Lor was the greatest non guild ever.
Ruhr
Sojourner
Posts: 188
Joined: Tue Jan 30, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ruhr » Fri Mar 18, 2005 8:21 pm

Selzan wrote:
Ruhr wrote:3) Riders of Twilight had it's charter yanked after a kangaroo court with Lloth and Mystra, so one side of the competition equation all quit or were forced to leave the game.

Notice how all of the above has fuckall to do with Everquest, etc.


Hey Ruhr, good to see you again. I agree with most of what you've said -- and posted to that effect a few months ago when Corth first started this discussion.

As far as the CS/RoT theory, I do think that you are right to a certain extent -- this MUD lacks competition right now, and it's not only limited to the size of the pbase. Instead, it relates directly to the attitude of the players who are at the top of the pbase, and their willingness (or lack thereof) to escalate rivalries to the point where the drama becomes real and tangible. A pbase of 40 can be just as brutal as a pbase of 300, given, of course, that the playstyles of those 40 people are relentess and ruthless. When RoT disappeared, those competitive fires largely left the MUD -- I'd say for the worst, though I'm sure many would disagree.

VADIS(!!) is also right for pointing out that, when it came to the drama, many of us were just playing our designated roles. After Soj1 closed, I wound up officering a sojourn-based guild over on EQ with Tagad, one of my most bitter rivals from Soj1. To this day, I am still guilded with him in WoW, and consider him to be one of the best friends I've met online.

The point being, in-game rivalries aren't necessarily bad, so long as you don't take them personally -- people do what they can to make the game competitive, which naturally leads to a sour taste from those who are either on the outside looking in, or those who eventually let the stress/competitiveness get the better of them. I've tried my best to get some serious rivalries going on Soj3, but the current pbase/gods just aren't willing to let it happen -- which, in my opinion, is a real shame (though I'm sure many would disagree).

Even if nothing else changes, it's still always nice to reminisce ...

Sarkhon, Selzan, et al


Hey Sarkhon. Not many ppl remember my monk, though I role-played him as a ruthless villian. How is old Tagad? Still working for Sony?



P.S. Vigis: I saw those logs before they were released, but really it was the nature of the logs, not the particulars that caused the problems -- and the whole thing was really the culmination of a number of bad events that were all started when Mystra decided to go after us... she was the friend of the same group of nancies who have been whining for ten years about equality and other nonsense... here's a hint, role-playing isn't about your silly accent, or posturing like a mincer, it's about becoming and doing and creating. Stupid wankers.
User avatar
Shevarash
FORGER CODER
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 6:01 am

Postby Shevarash » Sat Mar 19, 2005 7:14 am

Ruhr, knock it off.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Sat Mar 19, 2005 1:32 pm

Shevarash wrote:holding up examples of the past history of Soj/Toril as an ideal we should strive for is seriously flawed.


I would respectfully disagree. :)

Ruhr hit the nail on the head.. the mud is much more stable than in the past, and for the most part, technically superior. But on the other hand, its less of a game now. Its a great way to kill time and get your sixth alt to level 50 with a wonderful set of eq. But for it to be a game, there needs to be some competition, which many of the older players in this thread have pointed out, is sorely deficient compared to previous incarnations.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth

Goddamned slippery mage.
User avatar
Shevarash
FORGER CODER
Posts: 2944
Joined: Fri Dec 29, 2000 6:01 am

Postby Shevarash » Sat Mar 19, 2005 6:12 pm

You took that line out of context, Corth. I was referring to the general atmosphere of manipulation, favoritism, and melodrama that led to multiple mud shutdowns.

Simply put, I agree with you about competition being a neccessary factor - I disagree that god favortism should be the motivating factor behind it.
Shevarash -- Code Forger of TorilMUD
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Sun Mar 20, 2005 4:59 am

Consider the pyramid model.

Gods pick a handful of players, 1st tier

players recruit a crew, 2nd tier

people are entertained, 3rd tier.

Can you honestly say that there is enough entertainment at the 3rd tier.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Sun Mar 20, 2005 5:39 am

3rd tier tries to move up.. thats what makes it interesting for them.

When I first started, nobody would give me the time of day. I was exploring in moonshaes with my level 13 bard, which took me like 15 days to get to, and I managed to wander into the bloodrider area and spank. Jaeb had given me a cool lyre and I really didn't want to lose it. Nobody would help me get it back, even though it would have been a fairly easy cr for one or two level 40s. I spent about 10 hours trying to run past bloodriders and loot my corpse. Eventually did get it back on my own, after like 10 deaths. And that was a great learning experience.

Eventually, I had a crew of friends that could do tiamat. Its the build up in prestige to the point that you can hang with the elite groups that makes the game interesting.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Nurpy Fuzzyfeet
Sojourner
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2004 12:28 am

Postby Nurpy Fuzzyfeet » Sun Mar 20, 2005 6:53 am

Corth wrote:3rd tier tries to move up.. thats what makes it interesting for them.

When I first started, nobody would give me the time of day. I was exploring in moonshaes with my level 13 bard, which took me like 15 days to get to, and I managed to wander into the bloodrider area and spank. Jaeb had given me a cool lyre and I really didn't want to lose it. Nobody would help me get it back, even though it would have been a fairly easy cr for one or two level 40s. I spent about 10 hours trying to run past bloodriders and loot my corpse. Eventually did get it back on my own, after like 10 deaths. And that was a great learning experience.

Eventually, I had a crew of friends that could do tiamat. Its the build up in prestige to the point that you can hang with the elite groups that makes the game interesting.

Corth


I'm glad you have the time and patience for something like that.

However, most don't. A system like that would cater to those that can spend 7-12 hours playing every day and screw everyone else.
Aristan group-says 'nurpy=tripod'

Shevarash GCC: 'Tiamat stands here, fighting Nurpy.'
Botef
Sojourner
Posts: 1056
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Eastern Washington
Contact:

Postby Botef » Sun Mar 20, 2005 8:14 am

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:
Corth wrote:3rd tier tries to move up.. thats what makes it interesting for them.

When I first started, nobody would give me the time of day. I was exploring in moonshaes with my level 13 bard, which took me like 15 days to get to, and I managed to wander into the bloodrider area and spank. Jaeb had given me a cool lyre and I really didn't want to lose it. Nobody would help me get it back, even though it would have been a fairly easy cr for one or two level 40s. I spent about 10 hours trying to run past bloodriders and loot my corpse. Eventually did get it back on my own, after like 10 deaths. And that was a great learning experience.

Eventually, I had a crew of friends that could do tiamat. Its the build up in prestige to the point that you can hang with the elite groups that makes the game interesting.

Corth


I'm glad you have the time and patience for something like that.

However, most don't. A system like that would cater to those that can spend 7-12 hours playing every day and screw everyone else.


Not to mention people who havent been here the last 7-8-9- or 10 years.
While I no doubt admit there is (and in most cases should be) a certain seniority to things, nothing is more of a put off then knowing your chances of attaining something are grossly limited because you havent been here as long as others simply because that is something you will never be able to overcome.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:55 am

Nurpy Fuzzyfeet wrote:
I'm glad you have the time and patience for something like that.

However, most don't. A system like that would cater to those that can spend 7-12 hours playing every day and screw everyone else.


You are mostly right. It caters to the hardcore gamer who generally is the type of person you want playing your game. Which is probably the ultimate reason why sojourn is less competitive now. Its pbase is all grown up and can no longer be as hardcore (generally).. a dynamic that is reflected in decisions about the game itself. The old sojourn, rather than reflecting the will of the social and more pedestrian mudders, revolved around the hardcore gamers, and as a result, reflected much different values.

So what happens is you start seeing the gods accommodate their players who instead of being lazy college students, have to now hold a 9-5 job. Skills are implemented to make things easier on them. As a group, we can no longer tolerate lengthy cr's.. so sneak/hide is added. I was introduced to the 'soul walk' spell today, which tends to make BC a lot less interesting insofar as there is no pressing need to get to the portal room now to get people back to the zone quickly. That sort of thing.

There is a reason people stick around here for 10 years.. and its more than just the game. Strong friendships are created here, and it becomes a part of peoples lives. However, you end up with a social mud, which is a lot different than the gamer's mud we used to have. From a pure gameplay perspective (and when i use that term, i use it broadly, involving politics and intrigue), its a serious downgrade. If you want an interesting game, you go with the tiered approach. If you want a social mud, you go with the egalitiarian approach... but then don't expect for the game itself to be as vital as you would like.

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Sun Mar 20, 2005 2:07 pm

Corth, I 100% agree with you ...

Even groups are more lenient these days .. How often would you goodies a few years ago have argued with your group leader and not been SCHOOLED!

I know 3 years ago I did what Lazz told me ... we all did .. sure there were outbreaks .. but they were handled on oour assoc chat line ...

A few of us have discussed starting an old-school guild where you did what you were told, when you were told to do it ... but it wouldnt work ..

People just ask *why* too much!

*Why* ? I am your guild leader .. don't like it? Unguild ... and risk the demotion in group-ability
Lahgen
Sojourner
Posts: 542
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:58 am

Postby Lahgen » Sun Mar 20, 2005 9:12 pm

You know, Ambar, I was just about to tell you off big time, but then I realized that you'd probably say "You can make your own guild."

So yeah, I just wanted to put down a potential counterargument before it came up: If you don't like the attitude of the other players, find your own loyalists and make your own guild.
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'

Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Ambar
Sojourner
Posts: 2872
Joined: Tue Jul 02, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Our House in Va.
Contact:

Postby Ambar » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:39 pm

tell me off if you like :)

you don't pay my bills, feed my kids, or put gas in my car :)

text cannot harm me unless it starts off "Dear taxpayer"

these forums are here for us to state our opinion, yours is your own :)

Feel free to spout off :)
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Sun Mar 20, 2005 11:43 pm

Lahgen wrote:You know, Ambar, I was just about to tell you off big time, but then I realized that you'd probably say "You can make your own guild."

So yeah, I just wanted to put down a potential counterargument before it came up: If you don't like the attitude of the other players, find your own loyalists and make your own guild.




Uh, tell her off about what? Her commenting on her old guild, and the way things were? Wow, that's harsh. Yeah. Hey, here's an idea. If you don't like it, do something else. kthx.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Lahgen
Sojourner
Posts: 542
Joined: Tue Nov 16, 2004 2:58 am

Postby Lahgen » Mon Mar 21, 2005 12:57 am

Heh, fine....it was this, more than anything:


*Why* ? I am your guild leader .. don't like it? Unguild ... and risk the demotion in group-ability


I'm reading that as "Do things our way without question or you will be excluded."

I don't know about you, but that doesn't sound very fun to me.

But I figured that it would be better to just agree to disagree, and remind people that they can form their own guilds, rather than be beholden to people who think that way.

For what it's worth though, I generally will obey a leader without question, simply because he probably knows what he's doing. It's when *other people* in the group see fit to find fault with what I'm doing that I get irritable. I'm like "Unless you're <leader>, shut your mouth. If the leader doesn't like what I'm doing, he'll say so."
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'

Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone

Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'



Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Mon Mar 21, 2005 1:17 am

thread = hijacked. :)
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Postby teflor the ranger » Mon Mar 21, 2005 11:47 am

Quite frankly, I don't see the egalitarian mud that Corth is crying about.

Sure, there are rules, and boundaries to the system, but any system that does not consider a basic sense of fairness does not consider the morale of those who participate under that system.

Let me put it this way, consider US income taxes. Considered widely to be unfair and made overly complex by politics and special interests, the IRS estimates that over 15% of taxes are lost to illegal dodging or sheltering.

At a mininum, any system must maintain - at the very least - a basic sense of fairness and if necessary, justice.

That's also what makes American-style capitalism so popular a market model in the modern world. Competition in a fair environment. No monopolies, restricted and regulated government favoritism (set upon WTO rules and regs), so forth and so on.

Now applying basic economics to the mud, the best way to keep players wanting to play and keep them coming to the game are simple.

A basic sense of fairness and opportunity.

If any player that wants to put in the effort, reach level 50, participate in a majority of the "activities" (go zoning, join rpq, bitch and moan on the bbs) can make it, then we're all set.

Then all we have to concentrate on is providing a unique experience above other muds :\

Now for old and crusty players like Corth, and many others who hit the 10+ years mark like myself, part of that fairness and opportunity are new experiences.

So I can also suggest that we don't rule out god favoritism, artifacts, and politics entirely. While poorly done before, it doesn't mean that these can't be implemented with some efficiency and attribute to game play.

Now I believe understand why that the mud staff are unwilling to push into these areas. For the most part, I blame the imms unwillingness to police themselves. If we look into most authority systems, say, county police departments - yeah, we hand them badges and they enforce the rules, but there is one thing no major police force is without.

Internal Affairs.

Might be something worth looking into. An Administrator Admin.

Anyway, time to rope it all back in.

Corth, your egalitarian mud doesn't exist. There's still plenty of competition out here even though you've chosen to opt out of the rat race. In fact, I can quote both Maxler and Klandan, as well as others that the mud is "95% competition" (although I disagree, at least for my own style of game play).

God favoritism, politics, and artifacts open a whole world of potential abuse, and they were removed quite some time ago for reasons I'm sure the imms agreed upon, and I don't believe any of those reasons have changed or been addressed to satisfaction.

But one thing I can agree with, is that there are a whole bunch of whiners out there :P

And Ruhr is just wrong. Plain and simple.

Another model that we do have to consider, however, is the team sport model. Football, soccer, basketball, etc. People have been playing team sports forever, has always proven popular, and the simple games have been interesting enough for even spectators who do not even participate in the games. Competition has the ability to fuel the mud - quite well. The question of course, is whether or not we want to turn the mud into a team sport.

But, quite frankly, if you're going to do that, just shut the thing down and make people go outside and play football.
Klandal
Sojourner
Posts: 157
Joined: Mon Dec 16, 2002 6:01 am

Competition

Postby Klandal » Mon Mar 21, 2005 6:20 pm

I'd be interested to see your quote of mine about competition and the context in which it was given. I may have said something to the effect that competition is what makes this game worth playing, that to be given things without working for them is killing this game. I also have said I think competition is almost non-existant lately on this MUD and that unless things are changed people will not stay here to play, maybe just to chat.

In regards to the internal affairs comment, I think it's necessary to protect the longevity of this game. I'm sure many people by now have listenened to my rants on how the rampant sharing of information is more quickly deteriorating the point of playing this game. Why explore this MUD if you're handed zone and quest information? Why even log onto this MUD if you can have maps of zones, logs of quests, and people doing zones/quests for you and just handing you the rewards? It's become horrible enough that once a single person has done a quest the entire MUD suddenly knows it without working at all for the information, but it's entirely worse when information is leaked where not even that single person had to work for the information on the quest's completion.

Your team sports comparison is interesting for the MUD. I think one of the things missing on this MUD is... the teams. What fun is a game/sport when there is only a single amorphous team? There is no competition. There is no game to be played.

Here's hoping for the best, but not expecting it.
Klandan
Ivac ASSOC:: 'man, i'd love to be a woman'
Ivac ASSOC:: 'multiple orgasms'
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Mon Mar 21, 2005 9:51 pm

How can you hvae competition if there are no teams. In the olden days, it seems like you were associated with a leader and if you formed a group with another "leader" when your primary leader wanted you, you were pretty much blacklisted. Good bad, it doesnt happen anymore really and at the same time we have almost no competition.

Its hard to even tell who is in a guild in this day of everyone has 10 alts. ALL your characters should mandatory fly your guild tag. blah blah blah rp this rp that anonymous this anonymous that, if you want competition you have to have at least 2 sides and you have to be able to tell who is on which side. I've heard that scions regularly has 10 people on but you sure wouldn't know it by looking at the who list. I'd seriously like to know if the grand vision for guilds in terms of RP is greater than the idea that we need to establish some level of competition.

Face it guilds are basically chat channels. There hasn't been guild/team competition since guilds like CC and DSR lost critical mass (evils also) and driving personalities like Dornax quit. the mercenary mentality (i'll do anything for eq), lack of player base, and lack of things to do has ensured that all grouping is cross guild. You can't have any competition if people don't have to pick a side...

The only area of the game that there is still possible competition is rares and to a lesser degree questing. I agree with klandan that questing in particular has been seriously undermined by gods/builders leaking info and people's willingness to share quest info. In reference to god leaks, I can't prove it, but look at the empirical evidence and you can't deny that its the best explanation for several historical events.

************

the internal affairs idea is never a bad thing, but really hillarious. I think I have seen the "united front" mentality can be taken too far.
teflor the ranger
Sojourner
Posts: 3923
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Waterdeep

Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Mar 22, 2005 12:31 am

Anonymity is a problem on the mud. It encourages an utter lack of personality.

Don't get me wrong, it's nice to tog Anon once in a while (which isn't being anonymous really, its more like having an unlisted telephone number, but still keeping the same number), but if you're a guild member, all your characters should be tagged with the title.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Sat Sep 10, 2005 8:14 pm

!!!!!
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Glorishan
Sojourner
Posts: 456
Joined: Thu Feb 15, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Minneapolis, MN

Postby Glorishan » Mon Sep 12, 2005 9:24 pm

Corth wrote:!!!!!


!!!!! indeed. Artifacts generate greed, greed generates passion, passion generates pbase!
Touk says 'ac > glorishan > mr > touk > hps'
Siamorphe OOC: 'If AFKing is the devil, then Corth is the Antichrist and Glorishan is the False Prophet who supports him.'
Referring to the guild on 8/28/06: Oghma responds to your petition with 'your leadership team averages 280 days MIA :('
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Pril » Mon Sep 12, 2005 10:02 pm

Glorishan wrote:
Corth wrote:!!!!!


!!!!! indeed. Artifacts generate greed, greed generates passion, passion generates pbase!


pbase generates more greed which generates more artifacts which generates more pbase until we rule the world! MUAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:25 pm

Passion? What.. your not passionate about getting that 5th alt fully eq'd with the same top end gear that everyone else has? :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:27 pm

I'll know we're there when we have gods that delete me. :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Mon Sep 12, 2005 11:31 pm

You still have to _play_ for them to do that *poke*
Ragorn
Sojourner
Posts: 4732
Joined: Mon Jan 29, 2001 6:01 am

Postby Ragorn » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:05 am

Lord knows that nothing retains newbies like knowing that Dartan and Corth have artifacts that they will never ever be able to touch!
- Ragorn
Shar: Leave the moaning to the people who have real issues to moan about like rangers or newbies.
Corth: Go ask out a chick that doesn't wiggle her poon in people's faces for a living.
Corth
Sojourner
Posts: 6002
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2001 6:01 am
Location: NY, USA

Postby Corth » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:35 am

Laugh.. like there is a chance in hell either myself or dartan would be given an artifact. Remember, I'm the guy who has been saying for quite some time that our current batch of forgers need to be unceremoniously dumped. If they load them on some mob somewhere and give everyone a fair chance, then maybe! But that would defeat the whole purpose. 'God favoritism' is an important component of restoring some passion to the mud! Rather, I'd like to see the forgers hand out artifacts to they're most deserving brown nosers. Shar should be equiping Half of imphras with 10d10 proc instant death daggers!

*duck* :)

Corth
Having said all that, the situation has been handled, so this thread is pretty much at an end. -Kossuth



Goddamned slippery mage.
auslyx
Sojourner
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: Indianapolis IN

Postby auslyx » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:38 am

Corth wrote:Remember, I'm the guy who has been saying for quite some time that our current batch of forgers need to be unceremoniously dumped. . . Rather, I'd like to see the forgers hand out artifacts to they're most deserving brown nosers. Shar should be equiping Half of imphras with 10d10 proc instant death daggers!

*duck* :)

Corth


Remind me again why ppl want this fool to play?
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:48 am

auslyx wrote:
Corth wrote:Remember, I'm the guy who has been saying for quite some time that our current batch of forgers need to be unceremoniously dumped. . . Rather, I'd like to see the forgers hand out artifacts to they're most deserving brown nosers. Shar should be equiping Half of imphras with 10d10 proc instant death daggers!

*duck* :)

Corth


Remind me again why ppl want this fool to play?


Cause he's better than you?
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
auslyx
Sojourner
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: Indianapolis IN

Postby auslyx » Tue Sep 13, 2005 3:57 pm

Doh! Silly me. First off, you don't know me. Secondly, I guess this proves, YET AGAIN, that being a fuckstump dickhead with a shitty personality means one is UBER? riiight. God I must hone my attitude.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:05 pm

respect your elders, corth has more skill in his middle finger than you have in your whole body.

everyone raise a middle finger in salute to corth!

----

however, I don't think the current forgers need to be dumped... There has been good changes made in the last year, the last 2 years. Maybe not the ones we want, but still major new developments. However, the forgers do need to make some changes that result in some real change/progress. RL is a great excuse, but at the end of the day its still means nothing got done...

Couple things you might consider:

eliminate this attitude of "i'm a god worship me". fire people who do not perform. you may think that your already short handed so you can't fire a valuable resource, but how valuable is a resource that doesn't perform. dump it. It wastes your time, it wastes others time (the guy who wanders around and talks all day but doesnt do any work), and it tarnishes the image of hard work.

organization and delegation. If your running out of time is it because your caught up in useless tell conversations with peons? Make them email you. If email is taking up too much time, delegate someone to filter email for you. Find whatever is wasting your valuable time and eliminate it.

If RL happens and you can't get to the mud, delegate critical functions to someone... a #2 man or perhaps a team of the other 2 forgers. Frankly there should never be a period longer than 2 or 3 days where a sphere is without leadership. you can not manage effectively if you do not have regular contact with that which you manage (people or processes).

Lets give this mud a kick in the butt and get some pop back.
Gurns
Sojourner
Posts: 554
Joined: Fri Aug 10, 2001 5:01 am

Postby Gurns » Tue Sep 13, 2005 5:46 pm

So, you want more competition on the mud? That's easy.

1. Severely nerf rogues, so they aren't god-like.
2. Somewhat nerf elementalists, so they aren't demigod-like.
3. Fix trophy so that it works and is harsh, so there's no chance of mindless xp.
4. Pwipe.

Remember racing to 50? Who gets there first? Who gets there first in each class? Remember trying to be the first guild/group to do This Tough Zone, or get That Spanky Weapon, or Complete That Quest? Was that competition, or what?

Sure, that's a short term fix. In a few months, or if trophy is working right, half a year, plenty of folks would be at 50. So it would be even better if the mud were harder. If almost every class got nerfed some, and some classes get nerfed a lot, then what happens? Getting to 50 becomes a challenge, and not something anyone can do. If done right, then keeping 50 becomes a challenge.

So there's a long term fix. No need to add artifacts, or screw things up with favoritism. Just make level 50 mean something.
Buval
Sojourner
Posts: 5
Joined: Tue Aug 13, 2002 5:01 am

Artis

Postby Buval » Tue Sep 13, 2005 6:06 pm

I am a Duris outcast, I know precious little of Toril's history, but Duris had some good ideas for artifacts.

First they were not handed out, they were loaded in the vaults of the toughest zones on the mud (Tiamat, Brass and other zones Toril doesnt have).

Second then initiated feed code, basically your artifact has a timer on it, it will last one week unfed. To feed an artifact you had to frag someone, or finish a decent zone, touch a stone in the vault or some such to earn points.

If you want artifacts in Toril I think the feed code could work, if you have an artifact you must be active and do alot of zones or it will poof back to its zone of origination.

Duris is all about equipment and most of it is overpowered.
kiryan
Sojourner
Posts: 7275
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 5:01 am
Location: Los Angeles, CA and Flagstaff, AZ
Contact:

Postby kiryan » Tue Sep 13, 2005 7:04 pm

fun for some is relative power over others.

fun for others is relative power through skill..

one of the problems is trying to appease both groups. if you give an artifact to a weak player and he does something a skilled player can't, the flames fly. If you give a skilled player an artifact then the absolute power level between the unskilled and the skilled + artifact results in gross inequity...
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:22 pm

auslyx wrote:Doh! Silly me. First off, you don't know me. Secondly, I guess this proves, YET AGAIN, that being a fuckstump dickhead with a shitty personality means one is UBER? riiight. God I must hone my attitude.


Funny, i've never known Corth to be any of those things, except really the uber part. He's a real nice guy, and always has been even when I was a know dick for nothing Necro and he brought me on the first goodie BC run.

Odd that, and yeah. I don't know you. There's typically a good reason for that. You're a putz.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
auslyx
Sojourner
Posts: 130
Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:50 pm
Location: Indianapolis IN

Postby auslyx » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:46 pm

Listen, moron, if your menial logic tells you that not knowing someone means they are inferior, you're truly stupid. You have an ass that bitches on the bbs about the staff, yet won't play. His loss, everybody else's gain. I didn't ask for your oral diarrhea so shut your hole. Let alone the name calling. If that arrogant bastard wanted some mislead minion like you to defend him, I sure didn't see him ask.

What's more unbelievable is that the BBS is open for all, including new players, and they're able to see some idiot poster wanting, taunting, and insulting staff and change of staff. Corth adds nothing but vanity and it's unfortunate that snivelling, yet compelled little grunts like Arilin open their undeserving holes to defend some guy who's too lazy to log on.

As for your little 'putz' comment, first let me start by saying a great explicative, then followed by YOU. You don't know me. Am I a soldier? Am I a teacher? You don't know what the f*ck you're talking about or whom with which you speak.
Yasden
Sojourner
Posts: 1597
Joined: Sat Feb 03, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Lake Stevens, WA, USA

Postby Yasden » Tue Sep 13, 2005 8:50 pm

As Dartan would say...

IN BEFORE THE LOCK!
Support Your Addiction! Vote for TorilMUD Today!

Top Mud Sites: http://www.topmudsites.com/cgi-bin/topmuds/rankem.cgi?id=shev

Why Nerox is jealous of me:

Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
Arilin Nydelahar
Sojourner
Posts: 1499
Joined: Sat Jul 27, 2002 5:01 am
Location: Virginia Beach
Contact:

Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:05 pm

auslyx wrote:Listen, moron, if your menial logic tells you that not knowing someone means they are inferior, you're truly stupid. You have an ass that bitches on the bbs about the staff, yet won't play. His loss, everybody else's gain. I didn't ask for your oral diarrhea so shut your hole. Let alone the name calling. If that arrogant bastard wanted some mislead minion like you to defend him, I sure didn't see him ask.

What's more unbelievable is that the BBS is open for all, including new players, and they're able to see some idiot poster wanting, taunting, and insulting staff and change of staff. Corth adds nothing but vanity and it's unfortunate that snivelling, yet compelled little grunts like Arilin open their undeserving holes to defend some guy who's too lazy to log on.

As for your little 'putz' comment, first let me start by saying a great explicative, then followed by YOU. You don't know me. Am I a soldier? Am I a teacher? You don't know what the f*ck you're talking about or whom with which you speak.



Wow, such language. I don't recall using anything like that. I'm sure some poor new player to the game probably finds that offensive. Are you happy you're driving new players off with your harsh language? I wouldn't hope so. Don't worry, i'll pray for you.
Shevarash OOC: 'what can I say, I'm attracted to crazy chicks and really short dudes'
Vigis
Sojourner
Posts: 865
Joined: Tue Feb 13, 2001 6:01 am
Location: Brisbane, Australia

Postby Vigis » Tue Sep 13, 2005 9:07 pm

So much for actually doing real work for the rest of the day. . .I am now compelled to hit refresh every 30 seconds so I don't miss a post getting deleted :p
Nerox tells you 'Good deal, the other tanks I have don't wanna do it, and since your my special suicidal tank i figure you don't mind one bit!'

Alurissi tells you 'aren't you susposed to get sick or something and not beable to make tia so i can go? :P'
Pril
Sojourner
Posts: 1834
Joined: Sat May 11, 2002 5:01 am

Postby Pril » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:23 pm

Yasden wrote:As Dartan would say...

IN BEFORE THE LOCK!


Seconded!
Thilindel
Sojourner
Posts: 3173
Joined: Sun Aug 31, 2003 9:09 pm
Location: Indianapolis

Postby Thilindel » Tue Sep 13, 2005 10:30 pm

IN!

But I was never 'in' in high school *sniiiiff*

Return to “T2 Ideas Archive”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests