Paladin idea

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Paladin idea

Postby Hyldryn » Tue Oct 26, 2004 12:00 pm

Give paladins vit. Can make it the same circle as heal (9th). Thats it.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Oct 26, 2004 5:16 pm

If I got a vote, i'd vote no because I don't think it fits the theme well. If you tied it to combat somehow it would fit better (like a spell that gives you the ability to proc khanjari vits for a couple minutes).
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Oct 26, 2004 8:47 pm

Theme? What are you talking about? Paladins are knights with some minor clerical powers. What makes vit not fit the spells paladins already have? They already have heal, vit is by no means a stretch.

This is a suggestion to have paladins incrementally less unpalatable to take in a group. This allows them to at least reduce the group vit load by vitting themself and one or possibly two others. It's easy to implement. And it's not giving paladins something overpowering.
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Postby Botef » Tue Oct 26, 2004 10:08 pm

When I think of a Paladin and its clerical abilities, I think of them being used to protect said Paladin, not the whole group. I tend to think of Paladins as being the "stand back, I'll handle this" type, the kind that would try to keep his comrades out of battle by engaging the enemy and keeping them at bay, not viting up the group. Perhaps a self-vit could fit this, but having a Paladin vit the entire group would just seem a bit odd to me.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Oct 27, 2004 12:42 am

Dudley Doright!!!!
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Oct 27, 2004 1:29 pm

Ambar wrote:Dudley Doright!!!!


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Postby Birile » Wed Oct 27, 2004 3:12 pm

Geez, at least he didn't ask for resurrect like Paladins get in a lot of other D&D themed games. But getting vitality on Toril may be a little too powerful simply because of the game mechanics.
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Wed Oct 27, 2004 4:41 pm

Birile wrote:Geez, at least he didn't ask for resurrect like Paladins get in a lot of other D&D themed games. But getting vitality on Toril may be a little too powerful simply because of the game mechanics.


A paladin having a vit would be to powerful? How do you figure? Paladins get what, 3 maybe 10th circle spells? They'd get maybe one or two vits prayed max at whatever high level circle they'd get added to. I'm sorry, I don't see that happening. I don't see "Cleric group says - Vitlist: Paladin x1/x2."
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Postby Birile » Wed Oct 27, 2004 6:31 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:
Birile wrote:Geez, at least he didn't ask for resurrect like Paladins get in a lot of other D&D themed games. But getting vitality on Toril may be a little too powerful simply because of the game mechanics.


A paladin having a vit would be to powerful? How do you figure? Paladins get what, 3 maybe 10th circle spells? They'd get maybe one or two vits prayed max at whatever high level circle they'd get added to. I'm sorry, I don't see that happening. I don't see "Cleric group says - Vitlist: Paladin x1/x2."


I was referring more to the idea of a tank class being able to vit self. With an avenger in hand, lay hands, heal at 9th circle and all the levels of cure at their disposal, why do they even need vit?
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Postby Hyldryn » Wed Oct 27, 2004 7:58 pm

OK, the vit is too powerful argument is retarded. Giving vit to a class that already has heal doesn't make them able to fight even bigger and badder things. Explain, how these "game mechanics" you mention.

The idea is to give paladins a secondary usefulness in a zone situation. And its not even full vit responsibilities, realistically just themselves and 1 other. Ask any paladin how long it takes to mem their 9th and 10th circle spells, and not to mention how many.

The benefit to a group? I've been in large group with only 2 priest types. Use a paladin instead of a warrior and the priests have is slightly easier.
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Postby oteb » Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:19 pm

Would have to add seelie staff proc to avenger..
Otherwise..
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Postby Vahok » Wed Oct 27, 2004 8:38 pm

Any other ideas out there to help the best soloing class of warrior become even stronger? :P

Paladin vit ain't gonna lessen a load for priests since the best vitters do the tanks as is. Sure, a pally vit could be used to replace a druid or shaman vit in a zone, but I doubt that would ever be the case since a paladin's pray time on it would be horrible.

Theme? What are you talking about? Paladins are knights with some minor clerical powers. What makes vit not fit the spells paladins already have? They already have heal, vit is by no means a stretch

I'd really never call vit a "minor spell". Plus, go buy the vit potions around you cheap horsetouchers!
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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Oct 28, 2004 12:34 am

Fine, for some reason people seem to think vit makes paladins solo better. How this works is beyond me since they already have various methods of healing. Please give an example in where a paladin could solo something that he could not just because he was given vit.

Paladin vit ain't gonna lessen a load for priests since the best vitters do the tanks as is. Sure, a pally vit could be used to replace a druid or shaman vit in a zone, but I doubt that would ever be the case since a paladin's pray time on it would be horrible.

Do you mean Cleric? Because I said Priest. Priest as in priest, as in all the sub groups, as in all those people given the responsibility to vit, as in lessing the load of the vitters in general. And memming two 9th level spells every mem up is reasonable, more will be hard.

I would suggest "vit other" since people are having a hard time realising that vit doesnt add anything to paladin soloing ability. However the idea was to think of simple ways to increase group dersirablity without calling for alot of coding.
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Postby Vahok » Thu Oct 28, 2004 1:26 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Fine, for some reason people seem to think vit makes paladins solo better. How this works is beyond me since they already have various methods of healing. Please give an example in where a paladin could solo something that he could not just because he was given vit.

Paladin vit ain't gonna lessen a load for priests since the best vitters do the tanks as is. Sure, a pally vit could be used to replace a druid or shaman vit in a zone, but I doubt that would ever be the case since a paladin's pray time on it would be horrible.

Do you mean Cleric? Because I said Priest. Priest as in priest, as in all the sub groups, as in all those people given the responsibility to vit, as in lessing the load of the vitters in general. And memming two 9th level spells every mem up is reasonable, more will be hard.

I would suggest "vit other" since people are having a hard time realising that vit doesnt add anything to paladin soloing ability. However the idea was to think of simple ways to increase group dersirablity without calling for alot of coding.


Shrug, maybe I haven't been in many groups with 2 or less priest classes. Yeah, in theory, a paladin could replace a druid/shammie vit...but more often than not, there is enough vitters to go around.

I'm not gonna bother explaining how having extra hps helps your soloing ability...it should be obvious.

I understand a paladin wanting some more useful spells at 9th or 10th circle...personally, I'd prefer to see paladin exlusive spells. "Divine Favour" (bless/armor/minor globe?), "Diety Wrath" (area damage) or something like that. Again, just tossing out some ideas...

I'd ramble more but I need sleep...maybe I'll dream of horses and come up with something great :)
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Postby Birile » Thu Oct 28, 2004 3:08 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Do you mean Cleric? Because I said Priest. Priest as in priest, as in all the sub groups, as in all those people given the responsibility to vit, as in lessing the load of the vitters in general. And memming two 9th level spells every mem up is reasonable, more will be hard.


I dunno about you, but I can't remember the last time I was able to vit someone with the Priest subclass that I play, but maybe you're forgetting about battlechanters being a priest class. Maybe before giving a warrior class a priest spell we should give my battlechanter that spell. :roll:

And I can't remember the last time I saw a paladin use his f'ing Heal spell that he already gets to heal anybody other than himself 90% of the time. So why give paladins yet another priest class spell if they don't use one of their best ones to aid a group already? Oh, right. You use Heal in soloing situations, I forgot. Soloing...

Fact of the matter is, I understand you're trying to give paladins another reason to be grouped. But Vitality would be used 95% of the time in soloing situations just like their other priest spells are. And paladins already rule in solo exp.

Btw, Oteb cracked me up. :lol:
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Postby Gura » Thu Oct 28, 2004 5:34 pm

give paladins oldschool vit. im down with that.
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Postby Areandon » Thu Oct 28, 2004 6:21 pm

If you want to give paladins an extra edge in zones, why not give them something like a protect group from evil spell. It's sounds reasonable a paladin would give a group some edge against evil, maybe even could reduce holy word damage for good group members?
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Postby Gormal » Fri Oct 29, 2004 4:49 pm

Give paladins innate delete.
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Postby Tilandal » Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:39 am

I think the point is paladins already have the best spells of any of the hybrid classes. Giving them vit to is just silly at best. Before you go upgrading paladins you might want to take a look at tossing a bone to some of the other classes that got ignored in the last upgrade *cough*.
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Postby Gura » Sun Nov 07, 2004 9:01 am

i think before bitching u should all just wait for melee changes that are due.
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Postby Salen » Sun Nov 07, 2004 6:43 pm

I hope the melee changes are great, since I will have retired IRL by then and will have plenty of time to do xp on all the hitter classes.
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Postby amolol » Mon Nov 08, 2004 9:36 pm

yea... this thread seemed so redundant that i should post here.


that is all
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:55 am

Tilandal wrote:I think the point is paladins already have the best spells of any of the hybrid classes. Giving them vit to is just silly at best. Before you go upgrading paladins you might want to take a look at tossing a bone to some of the other classes that got ignored in the last upgrade *cough*.


HAHAAHAHHAHAHA *snort* *wheeze*......whew. Thanks for the laugh.

I'd put paladins right behind rangers in group usage. APs outdamage them by far, warriors can tank circles around them. Because of the more defensive nature of their spells, they can usually solo better than Aps though, but that doesn't matter much later on.

I'm not for or against vitality being added to their spell repetoire......but I think they deserve SOME sort of upgrade. Vit is probably not the best option though, as someone already mentioned we have potions for that.

You guys act as if giving a bone to paladins is gonna let them solo the whole mud......when they dont even come close to any of the real soloist classes.

P.S.-Yes there are some good paladins out there, as anyone who tries hard enough can make a seemingly mediocre class badass, but those that do are few.
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Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:06 am

I got a paladin idea:
REROLL
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:14 pm

Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Tilandal wrote:I think the point is paladins already have the best spells of any of the hybrid classes. Giving them vit to is just silly at best. Before you go upgrading paladins you might want to take a look at tossing a bone to some of the other classes that got ignored in the last upgrade *cough*.


HAHAAHAHHAHAHA *snort* *wheeze*......whew. Thanks for the laugh.
...
You guys act as if giving a bone to paladins is gonna let them solo the whole mud......when they dont even come close to any of the real soloist classes.


I think his concern isn't paladins soloing the whole mud, or even paladins at all - it's more likely the underpowered aspects of rangers, psionics, and dires. That sort of thing (particularly squid upgrades) I find a little harder to argue against.

Personally, I wouldn't mind paladins getting vit, but I don't think it would change much overall.

Which comes back to the point I think he was trying to make: is it worth the effort of changing spell lists around?

Now, if you want to really give paladins group utility with a vit spell, make them a 10th circle quested spell for Group vit. That would make people sit up and notice.
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Postby Birile » Wed Nov 10, 2004 6:22 pm

moritheil wrote:Now, if you want to really give paladins group utility with a vit spell, make them a 10th circle quested spell for Group vit. That would make people sit up and notice.


And I hope every Cleric on the mud would storm the Immortal Realm searching for the head of whoever implements this idea. Or maybe they would appreciate it, I dunno. But you're still silly, Mori. :D
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Postby Lenefir » Thu Nov 11, 2004 2:45 pm

I really liked the idea of giving paladins a "group protection from evil" spell...
And perhaps give anti-paladins the opposite alignment protection? Kind of like that (un)holy aura that radiates around them...
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:52 pm

Lenefir wrote:I really liked the idea of giving paladins a "group protection from evil" spell...
And perhaps give anti-paladins the opposite alignment protection? Kind of like that (un)holy aura that radiates around them...


That's a neat idea, but perhaps it only works on group members of similar alignments tho? And you couldn't have an anti and a paly in the same group doing their aura's because they'd cancel eachother out?
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Re: Paladin idea

Postby Delmair Aamoren » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:20 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Give paladins vit. Can make it the same circle as heal (9th). Thats it.


All that would do is
A) increase soloability. This is a group oriented mud.
B) paladins would be vitting in groups. may sound like a good idea now,
but trust me, you'll hate it later.

Overall i agree with most here that it doesn't really fit the paladin theme,
and it would make them considerably more powerful. Now if vit was changed to how it was a few years ago where when the spell expired, the hp went away and you could very well die, i would say sure, and watch the pallies die lots.)

Del.
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Postby Yasden » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:21 pm

Only if you give anti's vampiric touch, as well.
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:37 pm

Yasden wrote:Only if you give anti's vampiric touch, as well.


Like antis need an upgrade to match a paladin...

I wanna see pallies get "holy aura" like "unholy aura" but works against evil alignment. Maybe that will help compensate for the antis better weapon (Holy avenger pales in comparison to unholy), ability to use poison, and there !align restricts as far as killing goes.

I understand that AP's and pallies dont have to be the same, but atleast make them a little closer to equal.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:43 pm

Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Yasden wrote:Only if you give anti's vampiric touch, as well.


Like antis need an upgrade to match a paladin...

I wanna see pallies get "holy aura" like "unholy aura" but works against evil alignment. Maybe that will help compensate for the antis better weapon (Holy avenger pales in comparison to unholy), ability to use poison, and there !align restricts as far as killing goes.

I understand that AP's and pallies dont have to be the same, but atleast make them a little closer to equal.


Depending on how you look at it, they are very equal. Holy avenger has some benefits over unholy. First, unless changed recently, it heals you out of combat, reducing time you need to rest to heal. Not to mention you can cast a spell to heal yourself as a paladin (no other tank class can do this NEAR as effectively).

"holy aura" is an interesting idea, and i don't see why they shouldn't have it. The only thing _I_ can think of as to why this hasn't been implimented, is they didn't see this as something a paladin would do, being relatively offensive in its defensive nature. Other things antis can't do that paladins can: remove poison, healing others (at any capacity), remove curse, decent damage vs undead via "destroy undead" (antis get command undead, but it really only works on level 10 or below undead, and even then fails more often than success), also paladins disarm skill maxes at least 10 points higher than antis, making them more skilled at disarm!

As far as the age old holy vs unholy dispute, the holy avenger quest is cake. i remember people doing it for no other reason than they were bored and they brought a decent trade value. The unholy quest, albeit not THAT much more difficult now that everyone has given away the quest info (bastards), is still riddled with having to wait for numerous rareloads, as well as completing a mini-quest for an item only attainable in an evil hometown. Not getting any farther into that aspect of this discussion, as i don't want this to turn into a huge anti vs paladin dispute. My original opinion of vit is not a good idea for paladins stands.
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:02 am

Delmair Aamoren wrote:
Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Yasden wrote:Only if you give anti's vampiric touch, as well.


Like antis need an upgrade to match a paladin...

I wanna see pallies get "holy aura" like "unholy aura" but works against evil alignment. Maybe that will help compensate for the antis better weapon (Holy avenger pales in comparison to unholy), ability to use poison, and there !align restricts as far as killing goes.

I understand that AP's and pallies dont have to be the same, but atleast make them a little closer to equal.


Depending on how you look at it, they are very equal. Holy avenger has some benefits over unholy. First, unless changed recently, it heals you out of combat, reducing time you need to rest to heal. Not to mention you can cast a spell to heal yourself as a paladin (no other tank class can do this NEAR as effectively).

"holy aura" is an interesting idea, and i don't see why they shouldn't have it. The only thing _I_ can think of as to why this hasn't been implimented, is they didn't see this as something a paladin would do, being relatively offensive in its defensive nature. Other things antis can't do that paladins can: remove poison, healing others (at any capacity), remove curse, decent damage vs undead via "destroy undead" (antis get command undead, but it really only works on level 10 or below undead, and even then fails more often than success), also paladins disarm skill maxes at least 10 points higher than antis, making them more skilled at disarm!
As far as the age old holy vs unholy dispute, the holy avenger quest is cake. i remember people doing it for no other reason than they were bored and they brought a decent trade value. The unholy quest, albeit not THAT much more difficult now that everyone has given away the quest info (bastards), is still riddled with having to wait for numerous rareloads, as well as completing a mini-quest for an item only attainable in an evil hometown. Not getting any farther into that aspect of this discussion, as i don't want this to turn into a huge anti vs paladin dispute. My original opinion of vit is not a good idea for paladins stands.


The disarm thing I did not know about, that is cool....but the other things you mentioned don't help much in the way of zoning.....and at this time, this mud is about xp xp xp xp to 40+ and then zone. Destroy undead doesn't do near enough damage for a paladin to cast it in a zone, rescues, bashes etc are more important. Remove poison....is debatable. Every zone I've been in where peeps have gotten poisoned, it does such little damage that it just runs its course...

Healing others? With a paladins mem time I dont see them healing anyone in a zone besides the occasional layhands in a desperate attempt to save the group.

Abram is great for soloing and exp, but dk owns it in damage. Bottom line. I've looked into dk quest, and it is harder. But you also get more than just the sword.

I'm just asking for more groupability...

Oh yea and one more thing, wtf is up with being unableble to kill mortally wounded evil victims? Its EVIL SCUM! You kill it! If they were neutral or good or something, I would understand it. But for evil beings, it just means more for me to have to type. There is a time for realism to take a backseat for playability.
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Postby moritheil » Wed Nov 17, 2004 2:39 am

Birile wrote:
moritheil wrote:Now, if you want to really give paladins group utility with a vit spell, make them a 10th circle quested spell for Group vit. That would make people sit up and notice.


And I hope every Cleric on the mud would storm the Immortal Realm searching for the head of whoever implements this idea. Or maybe they would appreciate it, I dunno. But you're still silly, Mori. :D


Naaaah. Clerics would ask for Group Ress instead. ;)
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Postby Yasden » Mon Nov 22, 2004 3:13 am

Here's a couple ideas both classes could really use.

1. detect magic. Neither have it...kinda retarded imo.
2. The ability to enter portals/wells/et al while mounted.

That is all.
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Postby Klurg » Mon Nov 22, 2004 6:14 am

Or how about the ability to remount while in combat... make it a skill and lag on failure...
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Postby Birile » Mon Nov 22, 2004 7:22 pm

Yasden wrote:2. The ability to enter portals/wells/et al while mounted.


Not a bad idea at all.
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Postby Pril » Tue Nov 23, 2004 1:37 am

Paladin's have no need for vit between lay hands and heal

But here's an idea for a paladin that is something i've eben thinking about, for those times that we wear a shield which is rare, how about shieldblock?

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Postby Tasan » Wed Nov 24, 2004 4:32 am

Let me be the first to say:

You have de-railed...

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Postby Yasden » Wed Nov 24, 2004 8:38 pm

Oh, forgot to add this on my original idea:

3. Decrease chance of buffet dismount. Nearly impossible to stay on horseback in a dragon fight.
Hyldryn
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Postby Hyldryn » Tue Dec 07, 2004 9:02 am

Ok screw vit, how's about going back to one of my old ideas. "Holy sacrifice": a level 50 innate ability where the paladin instantaneously kills himself to trigger a 150 hp gheal for the rest of the group.

A cooler idea would be to up the gheal to something like 300+ but makes the paladin's corpse unressable.
Vorkul Tigerclaw
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Wed Dec 08, 2004 2:54 am

Hyldryn wrote:Ok screw vit, how's about going back to one of my old ideas. "Holy sacrifice": a level 50 innate ability where the paladin instantaneously kills himself to trigger a 150 hp gheal for the rest of the group.

A cooler idea would be to up the gheal to something like 300+ but makes the paladin's corpse unressable.


Wow, thats really stupid. 150 hp gheal doesnt really seem worth the effort for the leader to have to deal with the loss of a potential tank...

150 hps is what? Any high level area spell does more than that.

Out of all the paladin ideas I have witnissed, that truly is the worst, imo.
Nuada GCC: 'what the heck is a khanjari'

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Sesexe
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Postby Sesexe » Wed Dec 08, 2004 5:55 pm

Hyldryn wrote:Ok screw vit, how's about going back to one of my old ideas. "Holy sacrifice": a level 50 innate ability where the paladin instantaneously kills himself to trigger a 150 hp gheal for the rest of the group.

A cooler idea would be to up the gheal to something like 300+ but makes the paladin's corpse unressable.


I'm waiting for when you're gonna suggest Multi-Mount.


Shut UP Arilin!! Go eat your damn Cheese! ;)
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mount dragon

You climb on and ride Tocx'enth'orix, the elder black dragon.

You have learned something new about mount!
Birile
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Postby Birile » Wed Dec 08, 2004 7:17 pm

Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Hyldryn wrote:Ok screw vit, how's about going back to one of my old ideas. "Holy sacrifice": a level 50 innate ability where the paladin instantaneously kills himself to trigger a 150 hp gheal for the rest of the group.

A cooler idea would be to up the gheal to something like 300+ but makes the paladin's corpse unressable.


Wow, thats really stupid. 150 hp gheal doesnt really seem worth the effort for the leader to have to deal with the loss of a potential tank...

150 hps is what? Any high level area spell does more than that.

Out of all the paladin ideas I have witnissed, that truly is the worst, imo.


Honestly, the idea of some sort of Sacrifice being made by a paladin is not altogether a bad idea. You see this sort of thing all over the roleplaying world, whether the sacrifice nets a healing effect, a resurrection of all dead groupmembers effect, or an offensive effect. While a 150hp gheal may not seem all that great, having some other effect may not be all that bad, or a paladin who knows he's doomed sacrificing himself when he's under 100hp or something to get a big gheal (150hp is higher than a bard gheal, dunno about shaman but I'm pretty sure it's higher than theirs, too) isn't the end of the world.

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