Bard suggestions...

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Dalyx
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Bard suggestions...

Postby Dalyx » Fri Oct 29, 2004 11:26 pm

Many times after xping with my bard, I'll have a several instruments in my inventory and putting them away into their designated bag individually is a pain. So would it be possible to give the keyword 'instrument' to all instruments so that you could do put all.instrument bag?

Also, I noticed when dualwielding two weapons the same (like my 2 GCD's), it's impossible to remove the secondary weapon alone (eg. when switching between instrument and second weapon). I was wondering if a solution to this problem could be implemented. For example, something like rem primary and rem secondary would be nice.
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Postby moritheil » Sat Oct 30, 2004 2:56 am

Your ideas intrigue me and I wish to learn more.
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Postby Yarash » Sat Oct 30, 2004 10:22 am

Being able to put an instrument in a container while in combat would be cool too. I believe this is the cause of instruments piling up in inventory.

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Postby kiryan » Sat Oct 30, 2004 7:04 pm

being able to put cursed and !drop items in containers would be nice. Since we insist on fumbling to the ground, every weapon you have basically needs to be cursed.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Yarash » Sat Oct 30, 2004 8:51 pm

kiryan wrote:being able to put cursed and !drop items in containers would be nice. Since we insist on fumbling to the ground, every weapon you have basically needs to be cursed.


I like this as well. To counter the argument that it could be used to drop cursed junk items by putting them in bags, the bags could be undroppable when holding cursed items.

- Mike
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Postby Ambar » Sat Oct 30, 2004 9:52 pm

I concur!
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Postby kragt » Sat Oct 30, 2004 11:48 pm

Doesn't it already do something similar with group cached items?
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Postby Birile » Mon Nov 01, 2004 6:25 pm

Getting back to Dalyx's original post, being able to "remove primary" and "remove secondary" would really help so I don't have to unwield both of my glaives, rewield one of 'em and them hold my instrument.

Likewise, the instrument keyword idea is top notch.
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Postby fotex » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:28 pm

Cursed items, once they are worn/equipped, really should not be removeable/unequipped. Isn't that how it works in D&D?
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Postby kiryan » Mon Nov 01, 2004 9:52 pm

ooh a downside to curse and upside to !drop.

however, until they start reimbing fumbled / remov cursed dropped crap, I am deadset against that suggestion.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Gura » Tue Nov 02, 2004 8:07 pm

i've got a bard suggestion! remove song of the elements and add somethin a little more appropriate. was on a mud once with song of the dragons. was a song that improved sv-br and did some hp healing each tick. could add it as a 50th song. even a quest!
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Postby Birile » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:02 pm

Gura wrote:i've got a bard suggestion! remove song of the elements and add somethin a little more appropriate. was on a mud once with song of the dragons. was a song that improved sv-br and did some hp healing each tick. could add it as a 50th song. even a quest!


Song of Protection already does half of this (along with other benefits) and bards/battlechanters get it at level 1.
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Postby Sesexe » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:04 pm

Please code it so Birile logs on more when I'm on.

kthnx ;)

Oh, and not to be completely useless here. Be nice if song of elements effects had random chance of short duration spell procs of similar nature.

a tiny chance to have:
a minor earthquake on earth
a minor silence on water
a 1 round bash on air or just make the mob abort casting
etc
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 04, 2004 10:31 pm

Birile wrote:
Gura wrote:i've got a bard suggestion! remove song of the elements and add somethin a little more appropriate. was on a mud once with song of the dragons. was a song that improved sv-br and did some hp healing each tick. could add it as a 50th song. even a quest!


Song of Protection already does half of this (along with other benefits) and bards/battlechanters get it at level 1.


i don't think gura cares about the other saves. he wants healing and sv br, which is kinda pointless on this MUD b/c of caps
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby rylan » Fri Nov 05, 2004 12:22 am

I'd still like to see song of healing have a chance to cure blinds at very high level/skill.
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Postby Mielikki » Fri Nov 05, 2004 3:59 am

I'll toss the idea around again, but I'm not excited about the idea myself, mostly because it will remove something special from shamans.
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Postby rylan » Fri Nov 05, 2004 4:47 pm

Well you'd still need shamans because its a 1 round cast of removing blind from the entire group.

I was thinking for bards something along the lines of a chance to cure blinds on random people in your group, certainly not everyone who is blind. And since you only get a verse every 3 rounds or so it wouldn't take it away from shamans.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:23 pm

Let Drow be bards.
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Postby Gura » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:34 pm

Dalar wrote:
Birile wrote:
Gura wrote:i've got a bard suggestion! remove song of the elements and add somethin a little more appropriate. was on a mud once with song of the dragons. was a song that improved sv-br and did some hp healing each tick. could add it as a 50th song. even a quest!


Song of Protection already does half of this (along with other benefits) and bards/battlechanters get it at level 1.


i don't think gura cares about the other saves. he wants healing and sv br, which is kinda pointless on this MUD b/c of caps


basically what dartan said except i dont see it being as pointless since it would just offer you more flexibility with the eq you wear in those situations.
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:17 pm

Song of harming proccing minor/major para would pwn.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:21 pm

Birile wrote:Song of harming proccing minor/major para would pwn.


pwn a little too much don'tchya think? Maybe it could be like tblast and have a chance to stun instead?
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Postby Gura » Fri Nov 05, 2004 6:57 pm

maybe it could just do more damage :-P
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:18 pm

Honestly, how could that pwn a little too much? Minor paralysis is a circle 4 spell, major para is a circle 8 spell, prismatic spray is a circle 7 spell, song of harming is a level 41 song, equivalent to a circle 8 spell. How, again, is it overpowering to allow bards to do what others can do at the same level or much sooner?
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Postby oteb » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:37 pm

Song are area effect. Go back to hamstringing;)
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:41 pm

oteb wrote:Song are area effect. Go back to hamstringing;)


So is prismatic spray, but it can major para anyway, and at a lower level. Next? :P
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Postby Gura » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:46 pm

well u could think about it like this, bards are rogue/mage. battlechanters are rogue/priest. it might fit the bard side of things even if it wasnt overpowered but it wouldnt fit the battlechanter side. and i doubt they're gonna give bards an upgrade without battlechanters. besides if it did minor para mobs i wouldnt sing it anyway..least not in zones, would just cause a mess of unnecessary switching.
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Nokie wiggles his bottom.

Teba tells you 'let me do my job you volo twinker!'

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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 05, 2004 7:48 pm

Gura wrote:well u could think about it like this, bards are rogue/mage. battlechanters are rogue/priest. it might fit the bard side of things even if it wasnt overpowered but it wouldnt fit the battlechanter side. and i doubt they're gonna give bards an upgrade without battlechanters. besides if it did minor para mobs i wouldnt sing it anyway..least not in zones, would just cause a mess of unnecessary switching.


Or you could think of it like this: battlechanters can already group haste, cast group fly, etc. Something other priest classes can't do.

As for your minor para point: obviously that simply means major para is the only way to go for the proc. :twisted:
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:00 pm

I'll argue against the need for any new major para anything in the game.
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Postby oteb » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:08 pm

Birile wrote:
oteb wrote:Song are area effect. Go back to hamstringing;)


So is prismatic spray, but it can major para anyway, and at a lower level. Next? :P


You have limited number of prism you can cast. And blue beam is quite rare.
You can sing yer song almost forever in zone. Next:P
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:10 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I'll argue against the need for any new major para anything in the game.


That's a vote, not an argument. An argument lists reasons lol. :wink:

And why shouldn't bards be able to para? We're a rogue/mage class. Rogues can para, mages can para. *shrug* It's a proc that a) would make a high-level song used much more often, giving variety to our TRL lineup and b) doesn't take away from another class's niche the way a cure blind proc to song of healing would.
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Postby Gura » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:16 pm

give them major para on harming...then take away all their healing songs.
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:19 pm

Gura wrote:give them major para on harming...then take away all their healing songs.


Back up your suggestion. Why should major para on harming cause us to lose our healing songs?
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Nov 05, 2004 8:23 pm

I don't see any need for more major para to be instituted into the game. It's way too powerful in a game where the players are already too powerful. That's the reason I wanted the major source of major para for rogues removed, too. We already need a fraction of the people to do a zone that we used to, and there are those of us who take pride in doing a zone that used to take 15 people with only us and maybe one other... any attempt to make any class in the game more powerful is only adding fuel to the fires of enforced stagnation. The greater power we get, the less we need any other player's help, the faster the game as a whole stagnates.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 05, 2004 10:08 pm

Birile wrote:Honestly, how could that pwn a little too much? Minor paralysis is a circle 4 spell, major para is a circle 8 spell, prismatic spray is a circle 7 spell, song of harming is a level 41 song, equivalent to a circle 8 spell. How, again, is it overpowering to allow bards to do what others can do at the same level or much sooner?


Why don't you start by telling us why exactly you want major para as a side effect, as opposed to all the other spell like effects out there that they don't have and could forseeably have?

Why's it gotta be major para?
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Postby Birile » Fri Nov 05, 2004 11:12 pm

Sesexe wrote:
Birile wrote:Honestly, how could that pwn a little too much? Minor paralysis is a circle 4 spell, major para is a circle 8 spell, prismatic spray is a circle 7 spell, song of harming is a level 41 song, equivalent to a circle 8 spell. How, again, is it overpowering to allow bards to do what others can do at the same level or much sooner?


Why don't you start by telling us why exactly you want major para as a side effect, as opposed to all the other spell like effects out there that they don't have and could forseeably have?

Why's it gotta be major para?


Well, off the bat I would toss out any spell/side effect that was based in any of the elements, which rules out most of the Invoker spells and the Elementalist's damage spells. Illusionist spells don't seem to fit the bill as it's difficult to justify how something called the "song of harming" causes one of the illusionist's damage effects. Causing a prismatic effect would be fun, as I'm a prismatic spray junkie, but that's far too powerful imho. An instant kill type effect would be more powerful than major para as well, so I would rule that out.

Knocking the mob(s) unconscious for a period of time where they could be hit and not wake up is just the same thing as major para so there's no sense discussing it.

So let's look at some possibilities:

--Stun, if it landed often enough, would be a viable option as that would be a useful side effect. Each mob, when hit by the notes of the song of harming would have to make a save or be stunned, thus aborting spells, etc.

--Bash. See Stun, with the added effect that this would keep mobs from casting for even longer and would keep bashing/rescuing mobs from, well, bashing/rescuing. Earthquake does the same thing and is a low circle spell. *shrug*

--Increasing the song of harming's damage. In my opinion, as a level 41 song this should have similar damage to Circle 8 spells. There is a large difference in damage output between an Invoker and an Enchanter at this circle but when areaing, I'm seen song of harming do about 100 damage to targets, give or take. 100 damage areas in 8th circle spells kinda blows chunks. In a serious way. Not to mention many damage spells in circles this high have *gasp* procs, even for Invokers who do insane damage even without the procs playing the cherry on top of the sundae.

--Wither. This fits more the part of a defensive disruption proc. Which, by the way, would be nice to have. :wink:

--Major para. Prismatic Spray can major para at 7th circle, can do loads of other effects, and is also an area spell. I don't know what the land rate on major para from prismatic spray is, but I don't think it's too far-fetched to give song of harming the same chance to para as prism. If this is such an overpowered effect, why isn't there an outcry to raise prismatic spray's level or take the major para effect away from it? (I'm not calling for this, by the way, so please don't stop globing me, enchanters :lol: )

I can't think of any other possibilities since I'm a little distracted right now at work and can't research it. But I don't think it's uncalled for to ask that a level 41 skill be comparable in effect/damage to level 41 skills (8th circle spells) from other classes. So any other suggestions would be welcomed. As it stands, my level 41 songs, in general, all suck. That just ain't right.

While we're at it, making the song of miscast magic an area effect song wouldn't be such a bad idea, either. The chance to stop all casting mobs in the room from casting at level 41 isn't exactly uber when we take into account things like Earthquake that are low level spells. Yet miscast magic only effects one mob at a time. WTF? Again, fix the 41st level bard songs to be truly viable! Give us some variety so zoneleaders aren't asking us to sing haste, slow or heal all the time! At present, songs like harming and elements are novelties and aren't sung unless the group could definitely survive without any song being sung at all.
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Postby Gura » Sat Nov 06, 2004 8:39 am

mmmmmkay
Last edited by Gura on Sat Nov 06, 2004 5:32 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby shalath » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:35 am

Birile wrote:In my opinion, as a level 41 song this should have similar damage to Circle 8 spells [...] I don't think it's uncalled for to ask that a level 41 skill be comparable in effect/damage to level 41 skills (8th circle spells) from other classes [...] fix the 41st level bard songs to be truly viable!


There is a huge difference between spells and your songs. A song works automatically, every three rounds. It does its effect over and over. You don't need to leave the room and memorize or pray for it to happen again. While singing, you can do lots of other things, using your other skills. You can do damage. You can use things like hamstring if you're the right race. The effects of your songs even happen if you're lying around on the floor after being knocked over by a dragon, or (correct me if I'm wrong) even if you're magically silenced!

There is a huge difference between your songs, and other skills available at the same level. To be truly balanced, surely they cannot have the same level of power without losing some of these major advantages.

-thalash
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Postby Yarash » Sat Nov 06, 2004 9:52 am

What makes the harm song cool is that you can keep singing it continuously without needing to rest. Also, it seems to hit everything in the room, whereas spells affect a limited number of mobs.

The damage isn't high enough to be a popular song in zones though. If it got a small damage increase it still would not be overpowered.

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Postby fotex » Sat Nov 06, 2004 10:25 am

how about a song that allows you to attempt to control/charm a mob, until the bard stops singing, at which point the mob turns on the bard? with level caps (less than 80% of lvl perhaps) and only on reasonably dumb mobs, wouldn't that be fun? :D
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Postby Birile » Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:00 pm

shalath wrote:
Birile wrote:In my opinion, as a level 41 song this should have similar damage to Circle 8 spells [...] I don't think it's uncalled for to ask that a level 41 skill be comparable in effect/damage to level 41 skills (8th circle spells) from other classes [...] fix the 41st level bard songs to be truly viable!


There is a huge difference between spells and your songs. A song works automatically, every three rounds. It does its effect over and over. You don't need to leave the room and memorize or pray for it to happen again. While singing, you can do lots of other things, using your other skills. You can do damage. You can use things like hamstring if you're the right race. The effects of your songs even happen if you're lying around on the floor after being knocked over by a dragon, or (correct me if I'm wrong) even if you're magically silenced!

There is a huge difference between your songs, and other skills available at the same level. To be truly balanced, surely they cannot have the same level of power without losing some of these major advantages.

-thalash


Firstly, mana doesn't last forever. Secondly, the downtime when bard mana runs out is much higher than the downtime any mage has even if they had to mem/pray every single one of their spells. So no, I don't mem or pray, but I do still have to work at getting my mana back. If you don't think that's a big deal, remember that the next time you want a bard to sing recovery for you and ask them how expensive that particular song is.

And yeah, bards can still do melee damage while singing and yeah, Birile can hamstring and hope he doesn't fail and get stunned (thus causing his song to end). But several of a bard's skills are not available to them while singing. Anytime a bard is stunned he stops singing. So if a dragon's buffet stuns me, I stop singing. And a bard most certainly cannot sing if he's silenced.

Too, past level 30, the only skills a bard gets are songs and a few spells that were severely limited and the reason I was given for our spells being severely limited was that we get songs. Adding a proc to some of our high-level songs does not make those songs overpowering. It makes them viable. Big difference.
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Postby Birile » Sat Nov 06, 2004 11:01 pm

fotex wrote:how about a song that allows you to attempt to control/charm a mob, until the bard stops singing, at which point the mob turns on the bard? with level caps (less than 80% of lvl perhaps) and only on reasonably dumb mobs, wouldn't that be fun? :D


Song of Charming... oh, the memories... :cry:
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Postby rylan » Sun Nov 07, 2004 12:29 am

How about chance to blind on song of harming? I think even if it was given something really powerful like major para, it would land so infrequently to be almost useless.
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Postby fotex » Sun Nov 07, 2004 3:48 am

Song of Charming... oh, the memories...


How did the old song of charming work?
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Postby Ambar » Sun Nov 07, 2004 4:01 am

I just want to be able to pick a friggin lock while holding an instrument :P

rogues can wield a weapon and pick a lock .. why cant we do the same thing while holding an instrument!!

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