ranger idea

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kitze
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ranger idea

Postby kitze » Fri Nov 05, 2004 5:31 pm

just throwing this out for consideration for whatever ranger fixes are planned, i don't know if these have already been mentioned.

i think it'd be fun if rangers had hitall like the rest of the warrior classes. except since they are so proficient in dual wield, they could land two attacks per target.

also, give them disarm and allow for riposte to be maxed? make them expert offensive swordsmen :)
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sat Nov 06, 2004 1:06 am

Heh. We max out on archery at 95 even :P
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Postby Jhorr » Sat Nov 06, 2004 3:59 am

If I remember correctly there was a skill on another MUD called something like "whirlwind" where a ranger did something like a hitall. Was pretty cool actually.
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Postby amolol » Mon Nov 08, 2004 10:00 pm

whirl wind would be cool... but reduce the lag time on it... afterall we are "masters of the blade" i think... withall the argument about rangers and what they should be im confused as to what they are now..
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Postby Gormal » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:19 am

You know that warning new players get about evil races being hard? Can we apply that to rangers... except warning that they suck?
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Nov 09, 2004 3:37 am

Can we also warn all new players about Gormal?
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Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:04 am

I got a ranger idea:
REROLL
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.
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Postby Adalek » Tue Nov 09, 2004 5:16 am

Dalar wrote:I got a ranger idea:
REROLL


Yes, then we can all roll crossdressing invokers and rogues to sit at 1 west and show everyone how cool we are. I'll never understand the japanese...must be the radiation.
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Postby Ambar » Tue Nov 09, 2004 1:37 pm

Adalek wrote:
Dalar wrote:I got a ranger idea:
REROLL


Yes, then we can all roll crossdressing invokers and rogues to sit at 1 west and show everyone how cool we are. I'll never understand the japanese...must be the radiation.


wow owned?
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Postby Dalar » Tue Nov 09, 2004 4:38 pm

Adalek wrote:
Dalar wrote:I got a ranger idea:
REROLL


Yes, then we can all roll crossdressing invokers and rogues to sit at 1 west and show everyone how cool we are. I'll never understand the japanese...must be the radiation.

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It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Tue Nov 09, 2004 9:28 pm

I got an idea - cut the idea threads, comments, talks, etc.

Gets old really fast.
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Postby Vorkul Tigerclaw » Fri Nov 12, 2004 2:30 pm

Arilin Nydelahar wrote:I got an idea - cut the idea threads, comments, talks, etc.

Gets old really fast.


Yes, people should definitely stop posting constructive ideas because you are tired of reading them.....

Just because a thread gets hijacked and turns into something unhelpful, doesn't mean the orginnal post wasn't in good intent.

Keep the ideas comin!
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 12, 2004 6:59 pm

Brainstorming...

An elaborate series of new kick attacks that have the possibility to stack with eachother but not with themselves. You have to mix it up. The Skills would cause temporary effects of random duration 1-4 rounds (except as noted below), and the different types of kicks would stack with eachother. So players wouldn't do sweep/sweep/sweep. Instead it would be roundhouse/sweep/groin/toe etc to stack the effects for maximum benefit. Each kick would be doable only once a round, and during the lag duration, the player would suffer from slight drawbacks unique to the type of attack.

Roundhouse Kick - Ranger spins his body and swings his foot out with terrible force against the side of the target. Chance to stun opponent, & chance to disarm opponent. Dmg 4d5? During this manuever, player suffers from a lack of agility bonus to armorclass.

Forward Kick - A direct kick at the targets mid section, designed to push the target away and harass more then injure. Chance to cause target to disengage combat entirely for duration while the target tries to catch it's breath and recover it's footing, and reduced chance at a form of rescue. Dmg 3d4?

Axe Kick - A kick that brings leg straight up and then down with the heel crashing down upon the enemy causing devastating damage. Chance to disarm enemy's shield. Dmg 6d5?

Circle Kick - A kick where the player does an entire backward flip with foot connecting powerfully with target in an upwards lifting movement. Chance to sprawl opponent (1 rnd, 2 if critical), chance to disarm opponent. Dmg 3d5? Failure results in ranger being under the effects of being bodyslammed. Success still leaves ranger in kneeling position upon completion of manuever.

Sweep Kick - Rogue Trip?

Kneecap Smash - A powerful blow to the enemy's kneecap. Target looses footing and is unable to bash for duration. Dmg 3d3?

Toe Stomp - A harsh blow to the enemy's foot. Target hops for duration of effect and looses all AC bonuses from agility, & chance to be unable to flee for duration. Dmg 2d3?
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Postby Vahok » Fri Nov 12, 2004 7:30 pm

Personally, I really like the idea of rangers getting increased melee damage or something like the kicks mentioned. Rangers, imo, should be the masters of melee damage followed closely by rogues. Sure, rangers can tank (sorta) but they main reason I'd like to see them grouped is melee damage. Kinda like monks for the new Toril.

Triple attack may be a good start, or increased dual wield ability. The kick thing is a neat concept as well. Or maybe springleap or similar unshielded bashing ability...

Random thoughts...
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Postby kragt » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:28 pm

The kick ideas Sound a lot like monks, if you are going to improve rangers why not focus on their area of specialty like archery?
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Postby Ashiwi » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:44 pm

I say give rangers a skill that allows them to summon animals in nature areas. The summoned animals will be so profuse that their very presence, not to mention their droppings, will make footing treacherous for the enemy, potentially tripping them, and making it difficult for them to regain their footing.

Another potential ability would be the ability to summon a horde of ravenous vorpal bunnies... sort of the ranger's answer to the druid's doom spell, therefore known as "Doombunnies - Harbingers of Death." In the Doombunnies spell, each wave should do exponential damage until the doombunnies manage to strip the surrounding area of all vegetation, thus putting a halt to their own multiplication.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:20 pm

kragt wrote:The kick ideas Sound a lot like monks, if you are going to improve rangers why not focus on their area of specialty like archery?


Before the rangers beat you over the head for asking that one, I'll give you the sumarized answer. Archery doesn't define a ranger. This idea was discussed at great length and in multiple threads.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:21 pm

Ashiwi wrote:I say give rangers a skill that allows them to summon animals in nature areas. The summoned animals will be so profuse that their very presence, not to mention their droppings, will make footing treacherous for the enemy, potentially tripping them, and making it difficult for them to regain their footing.


Area of Doodiness? ;)
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Nov 14, 2004 1:20 am

Hey, here's a thread we've never seen before.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Nov 14, 2004 2:14 am

Ashiwi wrote:I say give rangers a skill that allows them to summon animals in nature areas. The summoned animals will be so profuse that their very presence, not to mention their droppings, will make footing treacherous for the enemy, potentially tripping them, and making it difficult for them to regain their footing.


Dirt to Turds?
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Postby auslyx » Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:06 am

In one of my history classes, I learned a word I thought I'd never see used again. But it's perfect for a skill concept here. How about a skill that furthers Archery? Strafe n. 1. An attack of machine-gun. Basically, makes anything in the room a glorious bulletcatcher!
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Postby Ragorn » Sun Nov 14, 2004 3:14 am

Archery already does that.
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Postby auslyx » Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:07 am

No, to strafe with a machine gun is a sweeping motion. You would basically do a hitall with arrows.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Sun Nov 14, 2004 5:34 am

Another Idea:

Ranger Spell Quest:

Journey's End

Every malediction spell:
sleep, blind, curse, creeping vines, paralysis, silence, slow, bish slap,

all in one.
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Sun Nov 14, 2004 9:27 pm

Sesexe wrote:Brainstorming...

An elaborate series of new kick attacks that have the possibility to stack with eachother but not with themselves. You have to mix it up. The Skills would cause temporary effects of random duration 1-4 rounds (except as noted below), and the different types of kicks would stack with eachother. So players wouldn't do sweep/sweep/sweep. Instead it would be roundhouse/sweep/groin/toe etc to stack the effects for maximum benefit. Each kick would be doable only once a round, and during the lag duration, the player would suffer from slight drawbacks unique to the type of attack.

Roundhouse Kick - Ranger spins his body and swings his foot out with terrible force against the side of the target. Chance to stun opponent, & chance to disarm opponent. Dmg 4d5? During this manuever, player suffers from a lack of agility bonus to armorclass.

Forward Kick - A direct kick at the targets mid section, designed to push the target away and harass more then injure. Chance to cause target to disengage combat entirely for duration while the target tries to catch it's breath and recover it's footing, and reduced chance at a form of rescue. Dmg 3d4?

Axe Kick - A kick that brings leg straight up and then down with the heel crashing down upon the enemy causing devastating damage. Chance to disarm enemy's shield. Dmg 6d5?

Circle Kick - A kick where the player does an entire backward flip with foot connecting powerfully with target in an upwards lifting movement. Chance to sprawl opponent (1 rnd, 2 if critical), chance to disarm opponent. Dmg 3d5? Failure results in ranger being under the effects of being bodyslammed. Success still leaves ranger in kneeling position upon completion of manuever.

Sweep Kick - Rogue Trip?

Kneecap Smash - A powerful blow to the enemy's kneecap. Target looses footing and is unable to bash for duration. Dmg 3d3?

Toe Stomp - A harsh blow to the enemy's foot. Target hops for duration of effect and looses all AC bonuses from agility, & chance to be unable to flee for duration. Dmg 2d3?


Where i agree both that rangers need something, and that kick is a relatively lame skill, i think these ideas are incredibly overpowered =P
We are not all jackie chan, bruce lee, or jet li. The damage of a kick or an attack isn't really what has thrown this mud out of balance, it's the extra "effects". Most warriors would agree that their most powerful skill or ability in fact does little or no damage directly (bash). Whomever said these were monk type attacks was pretty right-on, imho.

Here is an interesting note to add: Paladins do not get kick, anti's do.
Kick cannot be used while mounted. Why give this skill to either class?

Del
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Postby Arilin Nydelahar » Mon Nov 15, 2004 12:44 pm

Vorkul Tigerclaw wrote:
Arilin Nydelahar wrote:I got an idea - cut the idea threads, comments, talks, etc.

Gets old really fast.


Yes, people should definitely stop posting constructive ideas because you are tired of reading them.....

Just because a thread gets hijacked and turns into something unhelpful, doesn't mean the orginnal post wasn't in good intent.

Keep the ideas comin!


Go do a search for ranger threads, see how many get forgotten then comment.
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Postby kitze » Mon Nov 15, 2004 3:49 pm

my original idea was primarily for hitall. this is a really powerful skill, and what i'm proposing would significantly increase ranger damage output in big fights. imagine using hitall every couple of rounds to land an extra 12-20 attacks split among the mobs with your weapons proc'ing. (it'd be funny if every mob the ranger hit was shielded causing instant death too!) in small fights, it would just amount to a couple extra hits a round comparable to circle damage.

right now all a ranger can do is kick, a weak skill that misses frequently, or cast spells which no real beneficial or consistent combat effect. warriors, aside from bash/shieldpunch, can also headbutt for good damage with a chance to stun/bash. paladins and anti's can charge for some 90 damage with a chance to stun, not to mention the damage dealt by the avengers. rogues have many capabilities.

hitall would give rangers a much greater damage output in big fights, as well as increase their usefulness based on what their weapons are proc'ing (blind/stun/extra attacks/etc). warriors/anti's/paladins don't really take advantage of hitall in zones because they need to rescue, but in a ranger's case this would be totally different since they are going for damage. the "area" damage a ranger would deal would still be less than most casters but would add another role that would make them more viable in groups. while rogues would still deal the most single target melee damage, the overall damage output of rangers could exceed them.


disarm, aside from the obvious, also could help a ranger tank better since disarmed mobs don't attack while reaching for weapons. a max riposte just seems to fit the theme of one who wields two swords, and would also improve ranger tanking capability slightly.


therefore, you would bring a ranger to zones for:
1. luring via archery
2. area melee damage with weapon proc effects
3. single target melee damage
4. backup tank/basher
5. STYLE :)

personally i think rangers are a very versatile class and can be fixed with a few tweaks to make them more desirable in zones.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:27 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:
Where i agree both that rangers need something, and that kick is a relatively lame skill, i think these ideas are incredibly overpowered =P

Del



OK, since I disagree completely, let's look at the situation.
Warriors get headbutt which looks like 100-150+ damage, going by some of the arena logs posted (this could be different on mobs for all I know), but does it still have a chance to K.O.? (Honest question here. If it can, what kind of percentage are we looking at?)

Paladins/Anti's have charge right? Does about 90 dmg someone said. Is that about right? Does charge work like bash? That is, completely stops a mob of appropriate size from casting? If so, that's a nice skill they have there.


Now I put question marks after the proposed dice numbers, indicating I wasn't sure. By the looks, the highest I went was a possible 30hp kick attack, Axe Kick, who's side effect was to disarm the enemy's shield. I fail to understand how this is "overpowered" when the number of mobs in the game that actually wear and use a shield is an exceedingly small minority. Therefor, it would appear that this idea is neither overpowered from the damage it does, nor the side-effect it can cause.

Circle Kick, I suggested a max of 15dmg, that if you failed, you were bodyslammed, and if you were successful, the mob was only slammed for 1 round, with a 1/20 chance of it being 2 rounds and disarming the mob (the same frequency a critical was the idea). I fail to see how this is an imbalancing ability when most mobs in the game do not wield weapons. Therefor I fail to see how the side effect on this attack, is "overpowered" in terms of both damage and side effects.

Forward Kick, there was something I forgot to mention about this ability that I'd like to add here. By kicking the mob out of immediate combat, the idea was that you'd also kick them out of area damage range. Which would mean the invokers and area damage persons are no longer able to fry it with area damage, thereby increasing the duration of combat. With about the same frequency as a critical, the ranger would actually just rescue whoever the mob was attacking.

Kneecap Smash, stopping one mob, in a bunch since most fights are group fights, from being able to bash (not cast, or rescue) for 1-4 rounds is "overpowered" compared to what exactly? I felt this skill would be used more then anything when in the arena fighting warriors.

Toe Stomp, this attack said it made the mob hop around, but didn't stop it from casting, didn't stop it from bashing, didn't stop it from doing anything but loosing AC bonuses from agility (effectively like casting Faerie Fire? or Scarlet Outline? that only lasts 1-4 rounds, and not the entire duration of combat or the mobs life), and on a critical percentage chance it stops the mob from being able to flee for 1-4 rounds (unlike bash which is certainty for 2 rounds, or in the case of casters who word who have been silenced..). Unfortunately, I fail to see how this attack proposal was "overpowered" as well.

Sweep Kick, Del, was this one you considered "overpowered" too? It does have a side effect chance to stun and all. Or are you OK with this one since rogues have had it for some time?

Roundhouse Kick, would do a max of 20 dmg and have a chance to stun one mob for 1-4 rounds, and on a critical has a chance to disarm the opponent, but by doing this manuever, the ranger better not be tanking because they'll take a dive in AC as they do it. This was basically a shieldpunch for rangers with a bad side, which shieldpunch doesn't have other then slight lag. Is this still what you consider "overpowered"?


So Why kicks?
The kick skill is pathetic. It should have been removed a long time ago or revamped. These were just rough ideas on how to revamp it. But why kicks and not pommel smashes and such? Kick seemed just seemed appropriate. Do these seem like monk abilities to me? No they don't. I played a monk before. On here, and mainly on Duris and Basternae. Their skills were damge dealing oriented and damage avoiding oriented. I just don't see these kick ideas as a great boost to doing damage, and most increase how much you take because of their negative aspects. So to me, No, these don't seem like Monk abilities. All warrior types kick in battle, my monk used to do palm attacks and dragon punches. Hand attacks compared to feet attacks.

The concept of making these kicks cause your tanking to be worse, was so that Rangers would use them more then anyone else, although I admit I probably haven't proposed enough downsides to doing these attacks. For that I apologize. :\
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Postby Delmair Aamoren » Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:35 pm

Sesexe wrote:
Delmair Aamoren wrote:
Where i agree both that rangers need something, and that kick is a relatively lame skill, i think these ideas are incredibly overpowered =P

Del



OK, since I disagree completely, let's look at the situation.
Warriors get headbutt which looks like 100-150+ damage, going by some of the arena logs posted (this could be different on mobs for all I know), but does it still have a chance to K.O.? (Honest question here. If it can, what kind of percentage are we looking at?)

Paladins/Anti's have charge right? Does about 90 dmg someone said. Is that about right? Does charge work like bash? That is, completely stops a mob of appropriate size from casting? If so, that's a nice skill they have there.


Now I put question marks after the proposed dice numbers, indicating I wasn't sure. By the looks, the highest I went was a possible 30hp kick attack, Axe Kick, who's side effect was to disarm the enemy's shield. I fail to understand how this is "overpowered" when the number of mobs in the game that actually wear and use a shield is an exceedingly small minority. Therefor, it would appear that this idea is neither overpowered from the damage it does, nor the side-effect it can cause.

Circle Kick, I suggested a max of 15dmg, that if you failed, you were bodyslammed, and if you were successful, the mob was only slammed for 1 round, with a 1/20 chance of it being 2 rounds and disarming the mob (the same frequency a critical was the idea). I fail to see how this is an imbalancing ability when most mobs in the game do not wield weapons. Therefor I fail to see how the side effect on this attack, is "overpowered" in terms of both damage and side effects.

Forward Kick, there was something I forgot to mention about this ability that I'd like to add here. By kicking the mob out of immediate combat, the idea was that you'd also kick them out of area damage range. Which would mean the invokers and area damage persons are no longer able to fry it with area damage, thereby increasing the duration of combat. With about the same frequency as a critical, the ranger would actually just rescue whoever the mob was attacking.

Kneecap Smash, stopping one mob, in a bunch since most fights are group fights, from being able to bash (not cast, or rescue) for 1-4 rounds is "overpowered" compared to what exactly? I felt this skill would be used more then anything when in the arena fighting warriors.

Toe Stomp, this attack said it made the mob hop around, but didn't stop it from casting, didn't stop it from bashing, didn't stop it from doing anything but loosing AC bonuses from agility (effectively like casting Faerie Fire? or Scarlet Outline? that only lasts 1-4 rounds, and not the entire duration of combat or the mobs life), and on a critical percentage chance it stops the mob from being able to flee for 1-4 rounds (unlike bash which is certainty for 2 rounds, or in the case of casters who word who have been silenced..). Unfortunately, I fail to see how this attack proposal was "overpowered" as well.

Sweep Kick, Del, was this one you considered "overpowered" too? It does have a side effect chance to stun and all. Or are you OK with this one since rogues have had it for some time?

Roundhouse Kick, would do a max of 20 dmg and have a chance to stun one mob for 1-4 rounds, and on a critical has a chance to disarm the opponent, but by doing this manuever, the ranger better not be tanking because they'll take a dive in AC as they do it. This was basically a shieldpunch for rangers with a bad side, which shieldpunch doesn't have other then slight lag. Is this still what you consider "overpowered"?


So Why kicks?
The kick skill is pathetic. It should have been removed a long time ago or revamped. These were just rough ideas on out to revamp it. But why kicks and not pommel smashes and such? Kick seemed just seemed appropriate. Do these seem like monk abilities to me? No they don't. I played a monk before. On here, and mainly on Duris and Basternae. Their skills were damge dealing oriented and damage avoiding oriented. I just don't see these kick ideas as a great boost to doing damage, and most increase how much you take because of their negative aspects. So to me, No, these don't seem like Monk abilities. All warrior types kick in battle, my monk used to do palm attacks and dragon punches. Hand attacks compared to feet attacks.

The concept of making these kicks cause your tanking to be worse, was so that Rangers would use them more then anyone else, although I admit I probably haven't proposed enough downsides to doing these attacks. For that I apologize. :\


First off, from what i've seen, headbutt does a bit more damage than that, charge does a bit less, and is FAR more useless than bash. it offers a 1-round lag that just stops spellcasting. I haven't investigated how much extra damage is caused by the proc that the nightmare does when you charge, but i doubt if its anything major. As far as kick....

You are suggesting ONE skill be capable of making all of these effects. That in and of itself is powerful. It has been mentioned plenty that rangers should loose bash, and instead gain sweep (rogue trip ability). Since they are dual-wielders, i see this as a great change. But adding a skill, or enhancing a skill to remove a mob from combat, to knock a mob from their feet (stopping casting, bashing, etc), remove a shield (no other skill does this that i know of), etc. I am not saying that they don't need something, nor am i saying that kick isn't weak (it is incredibly weak and i never use it myself), but this is NOT an option in my opinion.
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Postby Sesexe » Mon Nov 15, 2004 6:49 pm

Delmair Aamoren wrote:You are suggesting ONE skill be capable of making all of these effects. That in and of itself is powerful. It has been mentioned plenty that rangers should loose bash, and instead gain sweep (rogue trip ability). Since they are dual-wielders, i see this as a great change. But adding a skill, or enhancing a skill to remove a mob from combat, to knock a mob from their feet (stopping casting, bashing, etc), remove a shield (no other skill does this that i know of), etc. I am not saying that they don't need something, nor am i saying that kick isn't weak (it is incredibly weak and i never use it myself), but this is NOT an option in my opinion.


Del, no. I'm saying to take 1 skill and make 7 completely different ones. Each would have their own lag durations, which I feel should be different and varied. It would be nice to see some skills sometimes have random lag durations instead of being the exact same everytime.

Are you saying also that forward kick is overpowered because it "removes a mob from combat" and this is different then any skill in the game? Do you mean just melee skills, or any ability possessed by a character in the game? Because there are spells that do this type of thing already. Major para is way more powerful then this, and who can argue that takes a mob entirely out of combat, or rather stop's it from attacking group members? (A major-para'd mob can still be hit with melee, can be backstabbed with impunity, and can still be hit from area damage) I thought there was spells in this game that caused mobs to flee the room. Aren't there? Isn't this idea less then both of the effects of these other spells? Can you be more specific on how exactly this effect on the skill makes it "overpowered"?
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Postby amolol » Tue Nov 16, 2004 4:38 am

i know that im pro most ranger ideas that would give us an edge but im with deil on this one... its way over powers... bit more refining..

things like ambedexterity (lets us dual wield with our offhand just as good as our primary hand)

blade slap (bish slap with a blade)

blade dance/nance (lagless hitall with higher chance of hitting)

sweep (better trip? or equal to trip)

archery that will go above 95

blade sweep (hamstring for rangers?)

monkey grip <lvl 45> (allowes one to wield an equally heavy weapon in their primary hand) {while in affect cannot use ambedexterity}

pommel/hilt (punch an enemy in the face with the pommel/hilt of the sword/ghetto shield punch)

not making archery the focus of the class (read what it says)

things like this i think are much more contructive not over powering and fit the class. im not actually expecting these ideas to get imple,mented immediatly. or at all for that matter... but ides like these that are cool and give us a slight edge without making us over powered are what we need. not super powered abilities.
i dont know what your problem is, but i bet its hard to pronounce



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Postby Sesexe » Tue Nov 16, 2004 6:54 pm

amolol wrote:i know that im pro most ranger ideas that would give us an edge but im with deil on this one... its way over powers... bit more refining..


Amolol, are you responding to Kitze ideas or mine?
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Postby amolol » Wed Nov 17, 2004 5:40 am

mostly yours sesexe but some of kitze's too...

i dont think rangers need extra kick attacks i think they either need to get a few extra sword tricks or pretty much they just need an all round revamp.
one of the two... niether will likely happen.
i dont know what your problem is, but i bet its hard to pronounce



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Postby Sesexe » Wed Nov 17, 2004 7:38 am

Well then, I guess I'll just return the same sentiment with equally less thought in my response to the obvious lack of reasoning.

I think you're ideas are overpowering and need a bit more refining.

Purple Smurfs told me they were overpowering, so I'm gonna go with that.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Nov 18, 2004 8:11 pm

for the love of god someone fix arrows and missile shield.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:04 pm

Did a damage analysis in the arena:

Teflor: 25/40, AC -57

L46 War: 12/22, AC -100

(Including Riposte Damage)
Average Damage/Round: 75
Max Damage/Round: 200
Min Damage/Round: 18

Swords Used:

Object 'slender sword long longsword silver silverish', Item type: WEAPON
Damage Dice is '4D5'
Can affect you as :
Affects : DAMROLL by 4
Affects : HITROLL by 3
Special Effects : Elven Wounds

Object 'ivory blade silver lion head hilt', Item type: WEAPON
Damage Dice is '4D4'
Can affect you as :
Affects : HITROLL By 4
Affects : DAMROLL By 2



By Comparison, an L50 Inv

Casting Force Missiles (2rnd casting time, 1rnd mem time)

Average Damage Per Round: 100



So in Damage, Rangers (as well equipped as I and fully skilled) potentially hit about 65% - 75% of single target Invoker damage.

Supposedly, skills such as bash, rescue, spellcraft, and ranged attacks are supposed to balance out the Ranger class as compared to Invokers, however:

Bash and Rescue are virtually useless with Warriors around
and are thus unused

ranged attacks are not as effective as rogue luring
and are thus unused

ranger spellcraft includes a set of weak spells overshadowed by the spells of most other classes usually present in a group situation
and are thus unused

I think an effective solution to fix the Ranger class would be to give rangers damage that is on par with invoker single-target damage. Invokers will still retain a superiority in damage with area effect spells, and rangers will find places in groups. One way would be to give us an only partially effective triple attack (say maxed at 50), or perhaps bolster additional melee skills, or introduce other new ones. Another alternative would be to give Rangers a 'hook' or niche skill. Say, a skill that allows rangers to jab the eyes of their opponents, blinding them and doing damage.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:06 pm

Btw, concerning archery,

best damage dice i've found on arrows is 2d8

And at three arrows per round, that makes out at best ot be about

48 damage.

Yuck.
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Postby oteb » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:11 pm

there are 3d6 and 4d5 arrows
plus your damroll adds to each of them i think.
besides damage in arena is tweaked by lots of 'knobs' and in no way reflects the damage in game.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Thu Nov 18, 2004 9:21 pm

I suppose so, still, if Rangers were on par with invokers where it comes to single target damage, there'd be reason to take them along.
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Postby Dalar » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:29 pm

roflmao, invokers deal way more damage than 100 per round. invoker damage in arena is different.
It will be fixed in Toril 2.0.

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Postby Klurg » Thu Nov 18, 2004 10:32 pm

More magic resistant mobs in zones all over! Invokers made this mud so onesided.

As for rangers how about Dazzle: self only spell. Makes the mob u fighting unable to parry incoming blows for a short period of time if he fails saving it.

Innate Healing blade: Gives your sword a lifestealing ability for a short period of time useable once per mudday or so.

give them haste for the love of it make it a crappy low duration version or whatever.
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Postby kragt » Thu Nov 18, 2004 11:45 pm

Give clerics silence room again and melee damage will become important.
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Postby Treladian » Fri Nov 19, 2004 2:11 am

oteb wrote:there are 3d6 and 4d5 arrows
plus your damroll adds to each of them i think.


Those 3d6 and 4d5 arrows are the exception then. The 2d8 arrows happen to be store bought stuff from BG and ones made from wood carving. Arrows coming out of SH and TB that you actually have to do stuff for are only 1d8 dice. There seems to have been a bit of a disconnect between area makers in terms of what dice existing arrows have . . .

Anyway, even with damroll adding to each arrow, that's still only 3 shots per round while melee spits out 5 attacks on a consistent basis. When you tote around a damroll of 40+, that's a huge gap that has to be made up.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:20 am

Have you checked to see if archery has a multiplier? Also dont mention archery ignores defensive skills and you dont need hitroll so you can convert it to dam roll and you never need globe or haste. Doesnt archery ignore stone? I forget.

Ever watch demogorgon or jubi fight? I forget which one has the eq, but he parries shieldblocks and dodges the fuk out of melee.... of course arrows just bounce off his missile shield so I guess thats a stupid point.

I say again, fix losing arrows and missile shield. For reals, I don't know why you guys don't focus your upgrade requests on your EXISTING UNIQUE SKILLS....
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby kanenan » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:11 am

ranger kick seems ok to me :P

http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... eecd0591cb

also, arrows are SO screwy its not funny. the best ingame are actually storebought black elvens. al the UM2, TB special arrows.. are so understatted it sickens US.
make pwt last longer please.

when even the gods make fun of rangers, i think its perhaps time to RE-EVALUATE the class, or NERF it and bring monks back. bare bones, and PWN. i have had to face sad realites lately concerning all of this crap thats been going on fer years. will it ever end? its sooo lame. either do something about it or nix it.
stuff.
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Postby teflor the ranger » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:18 am

Dalar wrote:roflmao, invokers deal way more damage than 100 per round. invoker damage in arena is different.


Any chance we could get some Imms to comment on this, so we can see if Dalar is just rude or rude and wrong?
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Postby rer » Fri Nov 19, 2004 5:31 pm

Umm, Dartan is neither rude, nor wrong. That's a simple fact.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2004 6:45 pm

Dalar is right unless your talking about some high MR mob. I've heard more than a few times in public arenas that force missiles does upwards of 500 damage per missile thats 1500 damage in the time that it takes to cast which is 2-3 rounds? no matter how you look at it, its easily gonna be more than 300 damage per round.

If you were right, then a warrior with 50 damroll and haste would do 50% more damage than an invoker, does that sound right from what you have seen in game?

Also, realize that there are several knobs that can turn specific types of damage up or down in ARENA and OUT . Melee, archery, spell, area damage... having a 100 dam roll on your ranger doesnt mean your doing 500+ damage per round with 5 attacks if the melee knob is turned down 50%, its at best a way of comparing yourself with other melee players.

If you want to do testing, then find a mob and kill it hundreds of times and track the # of hits, the # of rounds, # of partials, # of rounds the mob was bashed ect with multiple characters and analyze it. With enough data you can draw some conclusions about relative damage.
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Postby Sesexe » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:12 pm

kiryan wrote:I've heard more than a few times in public arenas that force missiles does upwards of 500 damage per missile thats 1500 damage in the time that it takes to cast which is 2-3 rounds? no matter how you look at it, its easily gonna be more than 300 damage per round.


1500 damage.. I wish! (actually I don't) No, it's more like 500ish if all 3 land. I've only taken out a player warrior in arena with one casting because I was able to trick them into bashing me while reclined and I had a fireshield up. So they melted most their hps on that and force just mopped up the rest. Sandblast appears to do a little more then 2 full heals worth of damage, but takes longer to cast and is shrugable for no damage. (I had a mob at awful, it full healed self twice, then I sandblasted and it died, but that was a while ago so might have been tweaked since.)

Force missle is a 2 round cast with successful qc btw.
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Postby kiryan » Fri Nov 19, 2004 7:23 pm

teflor the ranger wrote:Btw, concerning archery,
best damage dice i've found on arrows is 2d8
And at three arrows per round, that makes out at best ot be about
48 damage.


BTW my evidence shows that those 2d8 arrows + a fiery war bow + 58 damroll on a level 45 ranger do more damage than a hasted level 50 rogue with 2 khanjaris and 33/48 to several thousand randar orcs... ).
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!

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