Ranger Archery

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Grunelda
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Ranger Archery

Postby Grunelda » Wed Dec 29, 2004 4:41 pm

This may be a bit off the wall (I've never played a ranger, but have heard the high pitched whining from outside the WD walls.)...

Why not let Rangers that use archery get bonuses for doing so in groups of rangers? As I see it arch is pretty useless individually against many things like dragons etc unless you have a ton of great 2/2 or so arrows? So I propose that they get something like "acommpany" that allows multiple rangers in a group to mulitple thier archery effectiveness. So that 2-3 rangers in a group could effectively use lesser EQ and have greater results. Also a multiple of the the already considerable arch dmg they get individually. Set some limits of course. limit to 2-3 per group. maybe level limit or something.

Dunno just a thought
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Postby kanenan » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:08 pm

no thanks.

sounds kinda cool.. but with 2 rangers the damage on bow is already pretty damned good. lvl limit?? like we need more obstacles.
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Postby kanenan » Thu Dec 30, 2004 7:10 pm

(( wont let me edit, logs me out ))

while you are on that thought, limit one voker to any group.
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Postby kiryan » Thu Dec 30, 2004 9:44 pm

The damage is already very excellent.

you will still find missile shield and the loss of arrows in the event of a crash the biggest challenge facing archery.

well that and rangers reluctance to embrace it.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby amolol » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:26 am

it isnt that rangers are reluctant to embrace archery. more that we all see it as a broken skill and see little point in focusing a class on a broken skill.
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Postby Sylvos » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:53 am

Nah, I'm pretty much just unwilling to accept archery as a ranger's lot on this mud. Hell I even use good arrows exclusively (3/3 at least) for those scant times I use ranged.

I just don't see what forcing rangers into a one-trick pony will do for the class. At least not without some broad changes elsewhere on the mud; there are no unique 'niches' remaining with the systems the way they are. You want damage, you bring invokers. Nothing is 100% MR, and if you run into high MR you just bring an illusionist.

Sorry Kiryan, but even if all us rangers actually accepted and used archery regularly, even if there was no risk of arrow loss due to crash, and even if missile shield was removed (which I don't feel is necessary, you get the right tools for the job you don't whine to have the screws changed from phillips to robertson), there still wouldn't be a niche for rangers. Cause damage is cheap, and in much greater supply from invokers who have the option for area or target damage.

Sylvos Winteraven
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Postby kiryan » Fri Dec 31, 2004 6:57 pm

yes sylvos, but at least they would be somewhat viable for damage if those things were fixed.

and I really think that people underestimate the damage and especially the damage against mobs wearing a shield and weapon.

I think we are already at a point where archery, dual khanjaris, and force missiles are equivalent in damage on single target in a medium length fight and easily superior on a long fight. The main difference is any level 50 invoker can do top single target damage, and only stacked rogues and rangers can.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Tasan » Fri Dec 31, 2004 7:01 pm

A shield and a weapon don't stop inferno.

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Postby Sesexe » Fri Dec 31, 2004 8:11 pm

kiryan wrote:The damage is already very excellent.

you will still find missile shield and the loss of arrows in the event of a crash the biggest challenge facing archery.

well that and rangers reluctance to embrace it.


I willingly admit that I do not currently have a zoning ranger, and have never implied in any of my discussions or suggestions about the class that I do. I haven't ever leveled one up to significant level to date. I haven't rolled one this wipe. But I will take the time to respectfully listen to, and address any ideas/issues I have to those players that have.

Kiryan, I’m not entirely sure you are aware of this, but you are constantly coming off like you know what's best for rangers, and arrogantly at that. I do not understand why you feel you have this qualification that you know so much more about what’s best for Rangers then those who are established rangers. I don’t know who your alts are, and I’m not big on keeping up to speed on what everyone plays, so for all I know, you could have one you’ve been playing for some time. I’d very much like to know if this is true, as then I could see more credibility in what you’re saying, which I’d honestly like to do. (I’m being serious.) Because right now it just looks like you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re snapping at everyone who doesn’t agree with your ideas.

So my question to you is: Do you in particular, and specifically, currently have a high-level Ranger that you've been zoning with for some time on this wipe? What exactly qualifies you to know what’s best and what they need for the class and to talk so pretentiously towards those Rangers that don’t agree with you?

Now please stay calm and relax if you’re getting upset. I know I get condescending when talking about Lich’s and Invokers, but that’s because those are my main two classes I’ve worked hard on being good at, and everyone knows I’ve been playing them fro 3-4 years now. Yeah I have a ressing/zoning cleric and a zoning thief, but I still ask for advice on those two classes from others who have focused on them over the years. And I wouldn’t even pretend to tell you what a cleric needs. I know you are well experienced and very good at it with vastly more time put into the class.
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Postby kiryan » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:15 am

Sesexe wrote:I willingly admit that I do not currently have a zoning ranger, and have never implied in any of my discussions or suggestions about the class that I do. I haven't ever leveled one up to significant level to date. I haven't rolled one this wipe. But I will take the time to respectfully listen to, and address any ideas/issues I have to those players that have.


last I checked you have only a rudimentary understanding of the game... you will probably never understand anything I say because you don't have enough knowledge of game dynamics or perspective. You could probably contribute a lot in addressing the low end and newbie game.

Sesexe wrote:Kiryan, I’m not entirely sure you are aware of this, but you are constantly coming off like you know what's best for rangers, and arrogantly at that.


its not hard, have you read the drivel posted by most rangers, half dont even understand how archery works let alone how to lure (let alone actually have a bow and arrows when called to zone), half are stuck in the era of 4d5 5/5 gleaming mithrils 70 damrolls and haste items, and the remaining two have valhalla scepters. An even stupider contingent of rangers wants to be transformed into rogues that focus on 1h slashers... Also... very few rangers know anything about zoning because by all reports they never get to zone.

But, you know this argument is classic and has never ceased to amaze me. Your not "qualified" to speak about a class unless you have a level 50 with x playing time, however, rarely are the nuances of a class of debate (from which experience would give a greater understanding) rather the classes role in groups or abilities as compared to other classes. Since no one with perspective is allowed to comment, your stuck with the career class xyz are typically myopic in viewpoint and zero in on a particular change xyz that fucked them over in the past which was a completely different world.

Really, if i wanted to know what would make rangers better I sure as hell wouldnt put much stock in what a ranger has to say, i'd go ask the leaders on the cutting edge. How the fuk would a ranger know why he never gets invites to do anything?

and btw, I'm not claiming to know how to fix rangers. However, I do know that fixing archery will be a huge plus since it is their ONLY UNIQUE SKILL in that it is a unique skill and it has unique properties (melee based damage that ignores hitroll and defensive skills).

Sesexe wrote:I do not understand why you feel you have this qualification that you know so much more about what’s best for Rangers then those who are established rangers. I don’t know who your alts are, and I’m not big on keeping up to speed on what everyone plays, so for all I know, you could have one you’ve been playing for some time. I’d very much like to know if this is true, as then I could see more credibility in what you’re saying, which I’d honestly like to do. (I’m being serious.) Because right now it just looks like you don’t know what you’re talking about and you’re snapping at everyone who doesn’t agree with your ideas.

So my question to you is: Do you in particular, and specifically, currently have a high-level Ranger that you've been zoning with for some time on this wipe? What exactly qualifies you to know what’s best and what they need for the class and to talk so pretentiously towards those Rangers that don’t agree with you?


I don't have a ranger period.

Now, as to why I am qualified.

How many times have I made high level rangers look like a fools on for their erroneous understanding of archery? active, playing semi high level (46+) Rangers who dont have more than a basic understanding of their only unique skill. by your logic, since I dont actually have a ranger, I'm not qualified to contradict these fools right? How many rangers know that shooting straight up drastically decreases your range (From gravity I assume).

And, while I may not know everything about rangers, I know a shitload about melee damage. I have been a party to tens of thousands of kills of empirical evidence in reasonably controlled environments about the damage rates between rangers and rogues at varying levels with varying equipment.

but what it comes down to is that I have yet to hear a really good counter suggestion to archery or any kind of argument against archery based on more than "it doesnt work". How can I change my view if no one is able to provide any kind of worthwhile alternative suggestion or expose any fatal flaw? Half the arguments are "its fatally flawed"... like archery is something magical that code or a unlimited supply of 10d10 10/10 arrow cant fix.

I take it back, I have heard exactly one good alternative to ranger archery... remove the ranger class.

Sesexe wrote:Now please stay calm and relax if you’re getting upset. I know I get condescending when talking about Lich’s and Invokers, but that’s because those are my main two classes I’ve worked hard on being good at, and everyone knows I’ve been playing them fro 3-4 years now. Yeah I have a ressing/zoning cleric and a zoning thief, but I still ask for advice on those two classes from others who have focused on them over the years. And I wouldn’t even pretend to tell you what a cleric needs. I know you are well experienced and very good at it with vastly more time put into the class.


I only get upset when i realize how much of my life I waste in a futile effort to explain myself to people who have very little hope of understanding and to others who have no influence.

and since you bring up that retarded experience argument.

Classes have inequity only when compared to other classes or different
environments. Anyone who has broad detailed knowledge of the game is more qualified to comment on rangers than a level 50 ranger, especially since half of them don't even know how their only unique skill works.


and although I strenously argue against de-emphasizing archery, removing it and bringing their melee up to archery damage would be a quick fix to starting to address their damage issue with rogues and invokers. However, you would be making them less unique by a lot, and you'd pretty much have to give them self haste and self globe to be any kind of reliable damage source. I'd rather we just fix archery.

and realize, that even if you bring rangers single target damage output up to invoker level consistently, you will not fix rangers. Invokers will still be much more versatile because of area damage for one, stupid shit like poofing cold shields and retarded mob AI that instantly recasts it makes inferno godly, not to mention utility stuff like gate/relocate, oh and to top it all off you will never require haste or globe to be effective.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Sun Jan 02, 2005 10:58 am

and since im not ready for bed quite yet...

Regardless of whether I am "qualified" to comment, do you dispute any of my stances?

Archery is rangers single unique skill

archery damage easily surpasses ranger melee when missile shield is factored out (possible exception having a valhalla scepter)

Archery is as effective with or without globe or haste

Archery ignores your hitroll freeing you up to wear ac, hp eq, or damroll

Archery hits higher level mobs much earlier than any melee

Archery ignores mob defensive skills like shieldblock (which can easily eat up several attacks a round).

or do you dispute that the primary challenges facing archery are:

the availability of good arrows (missile shield busting arrows) is unworkable at present. Most good arrows are 4 per boot and require min 10 minutes of time investment per arrow which can be lost in large quantities due to crash with no stated policy of reimb.

that missile shield is a low circle spell and pretty much any mage mob can and does cast it. The varied ways of removing missile shield are not viable. Good arrows are "expensive" and lost easily, missile shield neutralizing spells could never be considered important because they are single target, the classes that get the spells have more important things to do, and most groups would never have more than 1 ranger anyway.

I don't believe any of what I have said is even debatable.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Sylvos » Sun Jan 02, 2005 7:51 pm

kiryan wrote:and since im not ready for bed quite yet...

Regardless of whether I am "qualified" to comment, do you dispute any of my stances?

Archery is rangers single unique skill

archery damage easily surpasses ranger melee when missile shield is factored out (possible exception having a valhalla scepter)

Archery is as effective with or without globe or haste

Archery ignores your hitroll freeing you up to wear ac, hp eq, or damroll

Archery hits higher level mobs much earlier than any melee

Archery ignores mob defensive skills like shieldblock (which can easily eat up several attacks a round).

or do you dispute that the primary challenges facing archery are:

the availability of good arrows (missile shield busting arrows) is unworkable at present. Most good arrows are 4 per boot and require min 10 minutes of time investment per arrow which can be lost in large quantities due to crash with no stated policy of reimb.

that missile shield is a low circle spell and pretty much any mage mob can and does cast it. The varied ways of removing missile shield are not viable. Good arrows are "expensive" and lost easily, missile shield neutralizing spells could never be considered important because they are single target, the classes that get the spells have more important things to do, and most groups would never have more than 1 ranger anyway.

I don't believe any of what I have said is even debatable.


One collection of good arrows repops throughout a boot. A slow rate, but it repops throughout the boot.

One collection of good arrows is available 7 per boot in a zone that an elementalist can solo or a bard/necro/anti can defeat.

One collection of good arrows is available in a zone where a cleric can solo, 5 or 6 per boot I believe.

One collection of arrows is available, 3 per boot in a place Belleshel solo's or most casters can solo.

Good arrows not available? Sure Kiryan. Oh yes, there's other 3/3 or better arrows available, but they're not as convenient as the ones I listed.

I am 100% aware of how archery works. I have been for some time. I even know the twink where you can constantly shoot a mob from out of the room, avoiding the whole missile aware penalty that gets imposed. I know how to make all my arrows !break. I've spoken with lilithelle extensively regarding rangers in groups, so I'm pretty aware of her reasoning why rangers don't get invited to more groups. I've zoned in most zones available to goodies this wipe, including Tiamat, with my ranger. Not as much in recent days, because I have other obligations in game (different character is in the RP campaign).

And I offered a very valid reason why making archery viable wouldn't do squat for rangers. And you shrugged it off as 'well at least then they'd do damage.' Damage is cheap. Damage is everywhere. Who CARES if you can issue decent target damage, if you offer nothing else to the group?

Really, either archery or melee needs to get scrapped for rangers. Believe me when I say that I far and above prefer melee for rangers, but if it were scrapped and archery were made to be something other than the one-dimensional skill that it is (luring is far too situational requirement to qualify as a valid purpose) then I'd use archery. But the ultimate requirement is, in order to be of use in a group you have to bring enough to the table for the group to benefit. And single target damage, just single target damage, isn't enough to make any leader ecstatic.
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Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:42 am

I called it

the availability of good arrows (missile shield busting arrows) is unworkable at present.

the time investment required vs the risk of loss is not very good. Also, I dont consider arrows good unless they have at least 4 damroll (max % bust missile shield no?).

and while its true there are a lot of arrows available per boot even soloable ones, what is the time investment per arrow? including travel time? including finding the right class to help you solo? divided by the # of rangers?

At least Izan drops them 10 per load, I think 25 per would be better given the likliehood of losing them to a crash.

The player economy has pegged the price of arrows in the range of 50 to 100 per... if you lose 25 arrows to a crash you just drained 250 minutes (by my estimate) of time or 1250-2500 plat... how is this a reasonable burden?
Last edited by kiryan on Mon Jan 03, 2005 3:13 am, edited 5 times in total.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
kiryan
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Postby kiryan » Mon Jan 03, 2005 2:44 am

and realize, that even if you bring rangers single target damage output up to invoker level consistently, you will not fix rangers. Invokers will still be much more versatile because of area damage for one, stupid shit like poofing cold shields and retarded mob AI that instantly recasts it makes inferno godly, not to mention utility stuff like gate/relocate, oh and to top it all off you will never require haste or globe to be effective.

from my post above my last post. I agree with you that increasing their damage is not gonna fix rangers once in for all, but I have yet to hear enough good suggestions to formulate a good redesign that doesnt just mimic everything a rogue is. every other damage dealing class brings much more to a group in utility and I agree that is the fundamental problem. However, I still think the lack of damage and the inherent difficulties of archery are an obvious problem and could be addressed quickly.

It is definitely not gonna give rangers a clear role in a group, but it would at least re-establish their presence in a niche that they were always supposed to belong too and per miax supposed to dominate and lead... single target melee damage.

and of all the rangers, yours is the opinion I actually stop to consider. I think we just disagree fundamentally on whether archery should be the dominant source of damage for rangers.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Tasan » Wed Jan 05, 2005 3:33 am

I gave you the one defining argument against archery, you just choose to read what you want.

Archery is 1 skill that nullifies at least 4 other skills in battle.

You are 10x more useful as fodder than as single target damage in this game. If you can't admit that, you need to have your head examined. With mages being able to tank now, there really is 0 reason to have a ranger in a group. Archery was a nice idea, that was implemented improperly. There have been thousands of suggestions towards fixing it, mostly from people who play the class. I think you probably said it best though:

why listen to a ranger.


Seems to be exactly what everyone else has always thought. Why don't most of the older folks want archery? Because it's time consuming, it's a hassle, and for god's sake it needed it's own engine to work. How can you argue with going back to at least making us viable through the melee engine which seems to work fine?

You say you've done ranger v. rogue melee comparisons. Who fucking cares? Rogues don't get taken solely based on doing more damage. They have skills that can prevent hours of headache in a pinch. That is the reason they are desireable. A ranger's main threat is an invoker, or 3 as the going rate seems to be. Even were archery fixed by some miracle, it wouldn't change that fact. You speak of returning them to niche damage. What niche? That we could effectively take down Jenna earlier than a group of mages? That we could do Brimir easily? There are maybe 4 high level fights where single-target damage that doesn't require globe/haste would possibly save a group. That is more of a reason to avoid archery than anything.

But I digress... Address the problem of invoker damage before you come bitching that rangers don't know what they are talking about. It would appear you are the one who is mistaken.

!!x
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Sonon
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Postby Sonon » Wed Jan 05, 2005 4:38 am

sort of like a volley?
-------------------------------------------------------
Alysia group-says 'Lilen immolates a terrified squirrel to a charred crisp with his devastating inferno!'
-------------------------------------------------------
Lilen group-says 'where are all da trolls i was promised'
Lilen has left the group.
amolol
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Postby amolol » Fri Jan 07, 2005 6:03 am

but snare can totaly pwn archery... just like missile shield... the last time i shot at a mob that could snare he was catching almost every one of them... granted this doesnt happen much on mobs but i still think that it is poretty well broken. a mob should only be allowed to snare 1 arrow per volley not all 3. also missile shield is busted as we all know no argument there. you listed off all the good arrows. but what about the fact that there are more rangers than there are arrows and the facvt that its not always possible for a ranger to hire someone to get them arrows? think about some of the stuff your saying... lets drop this and try to work on something rangers want and is an applicable skill for all rangers at anmy time nomatter what the circumstances.
kthnxbye

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