Lich Spells

Submit and discuss your ideas for the MUD.
Grunelda
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Lich Spells

Postby Grunelda » Sun Jan 30, 2005 4:03 pm

I'm still working on a travel type spell for Liches. I do understand that they have some great powers and do not really need something quite the same same as gate, relo, lifewalk etc. So I have a proposal that is limited in scope but still offers a single avenue for travel:

LICH PHYLACTERY
Spell.

Area of effect: <player>
Aggressive: No
Cumulative: N/A
Duration: Until used as held item.
Class/Circle: Lich 10th
Type of spell: Teleportation/Necromancy

Lich Phylactery is a powerful version of the teleport spell that allows
The caster to travel anywhere, accross planes and barriers.

During the casting of this spell the Lich creates a single Phylactery
that magically holds a portion of negative energy life essence that
animates the undead creature and places it in Phylactery. The item
can then be handed to a trusted player.

At a time of his/her choosing the player may invoke the power of the
Phylactery calling to the Lich. The Phylactery, drawing upon the energy
of the Lich will teleport its creator and any beings also tied to its
negative energy (pets) to the holder/invoker of the Phylactery.

If by need the Lich can recall the Phylactery from its holder by drawing
in the negative energy, dispeling the Phylactery canceling the ability of
the holder to invoke the held item.

Discussion: This has some severe limitations linked to some powerful
travel prospects. Its limited by the fact the Lich can not call his/her
destination or its time of use, like relo. It can not be recast and used
quickly either. Since its final use is in the hands of another player.
I think that the Liches total number of HitPoints should be lowered after
casting this spell. Not so many that its a deterent but enough to reflect
a loss of energy that is funneled into the created item.

Its power and usability lies in the ability to cross planes while teleporting
both the Lich and pets.

Class Use: Allows a limited "escape" spell for Liches, somewhat
eliminates the tiresome work of groups or casters spending effort and time
to afford travel to a class that has no travel spells. Allows groups to
regroup in the case of group spanks.

Grunelda
shalath
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Postby shalath » Sun Jan 30, 2005 7:24 pm

Y'know, if it was a choice between giving Liches a transport spell, and giving Shamen the ability to plane shift, I know which one I'd choose... :-)
[Profile edited by Board Admin. If you can't be civil, we'll fix it for you. -ed]
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Sun Jan 30, 2005 8:32 pm

Grunelda,

Unfortunately the use of the word “Phylactery” in a description of a teleport spell is as inappropriate as calling Minor Creation, Magic Missile. Furthermore, it appears you are suggesting a relocate-with-pets-to-a-specific-individual-only-spell, and this I also do not support. Similar discussions have been had about giving lichs relocate, and more importantly, why not to.

If you, or anyone else for that matter (because of the recent rush on lich/necro suggestions); would like to read up on the discussions that have already been had about the various aspects of necromancers and lichs, and to perhaps understand more where some of us are coming from, I heartedly implore you to please read up on the following threads:

Necromancer Vs Lich
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=14931

Lich Vs Necro Curiosity
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=14767

Lichs talking about Lichs, undead, and the dead.
http://www.torilmud.dyndns.org/phpBB2/v ... hp?t=14318

Please note, the last thread is about to receive a large update from me on how D&D lichs would be if we really plugged them completely into the MUD. I feel this is important to show now what we would have on our hands if we accurate to the books. The recent supplement, Libris Mortis, for the first time actually deals with the Lich in D&D as a player race/class, instead of just a mob template, and has therefore become an invaluable aid.

Please understand, I do agree that Lichs need a Phylactery aspect added to them, but what you’re suggesting sounds more like a Soul Link/Walk kind of thing, and not a way of handling ‘lich bodily destruction and resurrection’, as is the actual job of a lich’s Phylactery.

I always appreciate enthusiasm for new ideas about one of my two main classes, and hope you keep at it, but please understand it can be frustrating when they are ‘dead horse’ issues.

:\
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Postby Pril » Mon Jan 31, 2005 5:19 pm

Grunelda, here's the problem that i forsee with your idea...

Rogue sneaks into the heart of a zone and automatically transports a tank or 2 and 2 or 3 nukers to himself. This would overpower way to much imho...

Pril
fotex
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Postby fotex » Tue Feb 01, 2005 1:03 am

I'm a genie in a bottle, you gotta treat me the right way o/~
:P
Pril
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Postby Pril » Tue Feb 01, 2005 4:47 pm

Wow fot someone needs to shoot you and put you out of yer misery :p

Pril

*pet fotex*
teflor the ranger
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Postby teflor the ranger » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:43 pm

How about a necro skill that let's them jump between undead bodies?
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Postby Vahok » Tue Feb 01, 2005 10:48 pm

Personally, I'd love to see a lich spell where they can word back to a coffin, cemetary or something like that. Wouldn't be horribly overpowered, and would give them a flee/safety type spell most mages classes have.
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Grunelda
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Postby Grunelda » Wed Feb 02, 2005 12:39 am

Vahok, thats basically what i was after just a little more spiffyness.

The fact of the matter is that Liches have reached a pinnacle in the realm of magic and cheated death, yet even with all thier years and yaers of magical knowledge thetr cant come up with a single spell to evade tracking melee/combat death?

In the sojourn setting: I will kill my children, explore half the realms and cause others to suffer unimaginably to become a lich, but then I am so stupid I wouldnt learn at least some avenue to keep myself alive and get the hell out of trouble if needed? As it is now you run. when out of moves - you die.

My original idea was a lich only travel spell. Someone else actually had to be in possession of the item that was created by the spell, It was basically Relo but the target had to have the item. So you could not relo anywere but that one target. Now if that is twinkable its also more twinkable with relo already.

Thanks all for posting!

Grunelda
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Postby Nekelet » Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:16 am

Well in that regard, locate back to guildmaster (how convenient that every lich chooses VT to store their most prized possession :P) would kill all of the twinkiness.

True, every mage can relo to a scouting rogue, but not every mage can relo in with a couple tanks &/| nukers in tow...

I understand the arguments against, but I sure do agree with you Grunelda. When the time comes, it sure would be nice to run away screaming with some chance of success.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Feb 02, 2005 1:36 am

IMHO liches are far too powerful to NEED a relo/flee type spell

this is going to sound sarcastic but I really dont mean it that way, just trying to illustrate a point

if we give Liches some transport spell ..

will warriors and rogues be next to want one? A-P? Paladin?

You are already a VERY powerful, remorted class ..

as an aside I dont play one nor do I know jack about the class, just a personal, uneducated observation
Grunelda
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Postby Grunelda » Wed Feb 02, 2005 2:40 am

Ambar,

rogue anti's and warriors are not spell casters. However as an example, rangers do have a limited escape spell - travel via plants. which like some of the spell ideas mentioned here is limited by the fact you need to be in nature. Asking for something not related to your class is what melee classes would be asking for if they wanted a escape spell.

Now if you said "will warriors want a skill like "shield shatter" that limits a mobs bashing ability" - that would be in class.

Asking for a spell for spell casters is in class.

As a level 50 Lich I *mostly* just want a way to get back in the action after dying, or to catch the group that left for a zone. Sucks to sit in VT and wait for a free caster to come stick you on smoke, etc. especially when you are supposed to be a very powerful caster yourself. Yes warriors have to wait, so do rogues. But they did not by class remort by mastering thier magic and having the singlemindedness of casting off thier lives and souls in the search for more power and immortality. Liches have attempt to beat death at any cost.

Just seems that would continue after lichdom.
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Postby Nekelet » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:34 am

Ambar wrote:IMHO liches are far too powerful to NEED a relo/flee type spell

this is going to sound sarcastic but I really dont mean it that way, just trying to illustrate a point

if we give Liches some transport spell ..

will warriors and rogues be next to want one? A-P? Paladin?

You are already a VERY powerful, remorted class ..

as an aside I dont play one nor do I know jack about the class, just a personal, uneducated observation


1st off, I'm not trying to beat a dead horse here. This has been hashed to death in other threads.

Yes, Liches are very powerful, in well controlled circumstances. I think I've described the scenarios I'm referring to in other threads, so I'll save everyone from my moaning again :D

Bottom line is, sh*t happens, and when it does its annoying that:
* Lich is the only caster class without the means to run away. (besides the literal run..)
* When the inevitable corpse happens when 'it' happens, there's no (solo) option but to walk. Without meaninful prots, and without even a fly spell, unless you've a spare stored. Levi just doesn't cut it from VT to oh, IC or ZK. That combined with being unable to sleep to regen some moves is very frustration. Heck, I can't even make it to the chionthar ferry without a 5+ minute pause for mvs.

Yes, beg a well. Yes, beg a gate. I did mention 'solo...' That's the whole reason I went necro/lich in the first place..

*sigh* already longer than intended. *tip*
Ambar
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Postby Ambar » Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:56 am

i did mention it was my personal opinion and that i didnt play the class :)

.........

c 'relo' pcorpse .. oops doesnt work :P other mages have to walk back to CR too :P sure they can gate to make it a tad eeasier, and sure they can put a pcorpse on smoke and relo to town and fish/gate down ...

but gates dont often cooperate when trying to CR .. can take AGES (as long as the walk itself) to get to the corpse :)
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Postby Demuladon » Wed Feb 02, 2005 11:25 am

Nekelet wrote:

When the inevitable corpse happens when 'it' happens, there's no (solo) option but to walk. Without meaninful prots, and without even a fly spell, unless you've a spare stored. Levi just doesn't cut it from VT to oh, IC or ZK. That combined with being unable to sleep to regen some moves is very frustration. Heck, I can't even make it to the chionthar ferry without a 5+ minute pause for mvs.


Couple of ideas:

Maybe VT needs one of those merchant mages you can buy fly spells from.

Keep a few hundred tele potions in VT storage for those rainy days :)
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Postby Pril » Wed Feb 02, 2005 4:04 pm

Ambar gonna have to disagree with you unless you die in the middle of bumfuck there's a good chance you can find a relo target close to where ya died. But not sure how to give lich's a spell that won't tip the scales too much.

Pril
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:08 pm

Nekelet wrote:Yes, beg a well. Yes, beg a gate. I did mention 'solo...' That's the whole reason I went necro/lich in the first place..


I'm sure some of you are well aware of the fact I'm against giving lich's a teleportation enhancement. I still am, I'd just like to point out a VERY IMPORTANT POINT that Nekelet just made, and it appears to have been completely missed, especially by you Ambar.

Lich is a solo class. Everyone knows this, even the staff promotes it as such.
Begging for help to get back to CR yourself, is the complete opposite of being a 'solo' class.

Therefor, Lichs do need an aspect of their class/race resolved when it comes to self CR's. Does this mean give them mage relocate, an enchanter/bard fly, or a shamans spirit walk, or a cleric's word of recall to preven the CR, or even an illusionists feign death? No it doesn't. It means, as undead creatures, Lichs need to have their movement points/ability adjusted appropriately to represent their undead/fatique-LESS forms. Undead do not tire. They are tireless. This should be reflected in an enhancement to their movement points. Pure and simple.

It was proposed to have all lich's permanentlly under the enhanced movement regen rate like that of the Bard's Travel song, and this needs to be implemented.

This would solve the problem of not being able to run far enough away from an enemy, as much as it would in helping a lich return to their corpses without un-solo aid, and ultimately be completely in theme for the class.

Lich is the oddball mage class. They are different. Let's keep them that way. Keep them in theme.
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Postby Ashiwi » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:39 pm

Llaaldara wrote:[Lich is a solo class. Everyone knows this, even the staff promotes it as such.
Begging for help to get back to CR yourself, is the complete opposite of being a 'solo' class.


Rogues are a "solo" class, and they still have to beg for help to CR, if the body's off the prime plane. Not trying to compare apples to oranges here, but no class should be completely autonomous.
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Postby Pril » Wed Feb 02, 2005 5:53 pm

Most classes can be considred solo by that standard ash, like Paladins and Anti's are technically a solo class.

Pril
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Wed Feb 02, 2005 8:58 pm

So you're saying there are rogues, paladins, warriors, anti-paladins that on a regular basis solo Spirit Raven, or DS, or Tower exp, or smoke exp, meilich mages (other then troll warriors), or wutever that actually keep up with the pop? That can do this and gain more net benefit over time by themselves then with atleast one other person?

I personally don't consider doing one mob, and then waiting 5-15 mins or so to heal back up as being a 'solo' designed class. I have a zonable rogue with kickass gear and am aware of the various poisons out there. I don't consider her a solo class by a long shot. Being able to figure out how to take out a difficult and rewarding mob all by yourself, is a grand achievement worthy of respect, this is true, but it doesn't mean the class is a 'solo' designed class. For a class to be intentionally solo designed, it has to be effective and faster at progressing by themselves, then compared to doing it with atleast 1 other person.
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Postby Pril » Wed Feb 02, 2005 9:09 pm

To answer yer question Llaaldara (i can't speak for all classes) but as a pallie i used to solo clear ship pop for exp (except the mages and teh naval captain) so by yer definition yes pallies are then a solo class.
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Postby Hyldryn » Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:26 am

Pril wrote:To answer yer question Llaaldara (i can't speak for all classes) but as a pallie i used to solo clear ship pop for exp (except the mages and teh naval captain) so by yer definition yes pallies are then a solo class.

HAHAHAHA
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Postby Ambar » Thu Feb 03, 2005 12:40 am

we all seem to be missing the fact i said i dont play the class and that i freely admit i dont know JACK about it ...

if it's movement you want

why not some rejuv type spell for movement points (similar to vigorize)... or store a travel set in the VT inn for CR's along side your backup book set

*shrug*

every class has its disadvantages .. we all see things with our class we'd like changed and/or improved ...

im done now .. not really worth it to argue :)

*hug*
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:01 am

Ambar wrote:we all seem to be missing the fact i said i dont play the class and that i freely admit i dont know JACK about it ...


Hehehehehehe, that's never stopped you from having an opinion on something before! :) *hug*

Ambar wrote:if it's movement you want


Yes, a more appropriate representation of being tireless reflected in our movement system in some way..

Ambar wrote:why not some rejuv type spell for movement points (similar to vigorize)... or store a travel set in the VT inn for CR's along side your backup book set


...with it in-theme with the class and without blatantly stealing ideas/spells from other classes.

Ta-Da! :)
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Postby Nooblet » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:07 am

Priding my view of being blissfully ignorant, I see this: Invokers get gate and relocate but have no pets. Invokers, save for areas, are pretty crappy. Is it area damage that defines them? After 5 force missiles, they suck like anybody else for target damage mostly. That goes to the defining argument that lich is a solo class cuz it's so powerful. There's absolutely no logic in saying they're over powered giving them a means of travel via spell. You lose your pets when you relocate. Maybe giving them a planar pocket spell that is self only, yet lets them peer into it for it to be safe? This isn't overpowered either. I just don't get why this class can't get any type of real mobility spell whatsoever. Necros/Liches (going back to the invoker argument) can possibly save an entire group if the tank dies. They can in the least rescue the tank w/a pet and it allows for the tank to get a brief break while healing or what not. Lich is getting the short end of the schlong by not having a means of travel via spell, and not that puny teleport/dim.
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Postby Pril » Thu Feb 03, 2005 4:00 pm

*ponder* nooblet

a) not sure who ya are in game but have you ever played an invoker? an invokers arsenal contains areas, force missiles, sandblasts, and fell frosts... all of which have their place in the game. I have blinded or sil'd mobs with sandstrom multiple times and fell frost para is always a nice treat for a fight...

b) yer making no sense in your argument assuming what you say is true yer saying that invokers are crappy while liches have these cool pets who can rescue tanks etc and since invokers get gate/relo liches should to because liches are getting the short end of the stick?!?!? Based on yer argument it's invokers who are petless that get the short end of the stick (also liches have way more hps than invokers). anyways correct me if i'm wrong.

Pril
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Postby Nekelet » Thu Feb 03, 2005 5:05 pm

Back to the pure running discussion.

Nekelet, pre lich...
Drat, out of mv..
scan;recl;sleep.
a short time later: wake,run run run..
repeat as required.

Nekelet, now.
Drat, out of mv..
scan;rest;recl.
sit;scan;recl;
news;
sit;scan;recl;
chit-chat;
sit;scan;recl;
chat some more;
sit;scan;recl;
afk for awhile.

You get the picture... As a lich, we can't even move as fast as we could as a necro. And now, necros have relo..

Though I'd still 'miss' planar travel, a ton of my complaints would be resolved with a substantial regen tweak.
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Postby Pril » Thu Feb 03, 2005 6:10 pm

Peer Nekelet, are you saying you don't enjoy chit-chatting with us? you bastage! :p

Pril
Llaaldara
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:27 pm

Pril wrote:To answer yer question Llaaldara (i can't speak for all classes) but as a pallie i used to solo clear ship pop for exp (except the mages and teh naval captain) so by yer definition yes pallies are then a solo class.


Minus the stoning avenger and you wouldn't be doing that, Dork! ;) Try it naked!



I just wanted to say "naked"
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Postby Pril » Thu Feb 03, 2005 8:32 pm

Minus Avenger? Why don't you go "solo" w/o pets! how dare you even sugegst i go somewhere w/o my avenger! *scold* :p
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Postby Llaaldara » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:06 pm

Pril wrote:Minus Avenger? Why don't you go "solo" w/o pets! how dare you even sugegst i go somewhere w/o my avenger! *scold* :p


I never said you couldn't ride your horse. I said I wanted you to go naked. So get naked. Are you naked yet? Well you should be naked.
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Postby Pril » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:13 pm

It's not a horse it's a griffon and i think my boss would have issues with me being naked at work :p
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Postby Areandon » Thu Feb 03, 2005 9:34 pm

Llaaldara wrote: I said I wanted you to go naked. So get naked. Are you naked yet? Well you should be naked.


Go Pril! Finally a woman who wants to see you naked! Grats!

Naled
rer
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Postby rer » Thu Feb 03, 2005 10:22 pm

Well, there _IS_ a first for everything after all!
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Postby Ambar » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:30 pm

Areandon wrote:
Llaaldara wrote: I said I wanted you to go naked. So get naked. Are you naked yet? Well you should be naked.


Go Pril! Finally a woman who wants to see you naked! Grats!

Naled


ROFL :P
Pril
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Postby Pril » Thu Feb 03, 2005 11:37 pm

Woot thanks for the um support!

Pril

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