change magma plz

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Larem
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change magma plz

Postby Larem » Sun Apr 03, 2005 9:15 am

bad enough dragon code has fubar'd most zones now, but this zone is impossible to do now, last fight alone, you face 7 drakes, all with dragon procs, all tailsweeping entire group, it's undoable, change the drakes, leave the drakon the way it is, and for the love of god, put back the load of ALL the items instead of just 3 items a run
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Postby Pril » Sun Apr 03, 2005 10:44 pm

Larem the gods were too busy downgrading the ring that comes from the last fight to change the fight itself. Please stop being selfish.

Pril
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:15 am

With all the new zones coming in and the potential for incrementally better and better gear, perhaps it might be better to leave it as hard as it is, as long as the rewards justify the carnage. Eventually the game population will learn how to come up to the challenge.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 04, 2005 12:30 am

Heh... you know I love you Kelly but imagine air plane with a ton more mobs, and most of them dragonkin, and none lure but the combat lure so if they wander they come to get you. Its LONG and difficult and the last fight is just too hard.
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Postby Thilindel » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:07 am

Hrm, the fight's harder than Tiamat ever was? Yet Chia's eq is best in game. Magma's just got downgraded and there's hardly any. I'm glad I wasn't on when they were makin a group :P I've never been on when people were doing magma. (Not anxious to go now, either!)
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Re: change magma plz

Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:32 am

Larem wrote:bad enough dragon code has fubar'd most zones now, but this zone is impossible to do now, last fight alone, you face 7 drakes, all with dragon procs, all tailsweeping entire group, it's undoable, change the drakes, leave the drakon the way it is, and for the love of god, put back the load of ALL the items instead of just 3 items a run


we had the wrong group to even begin to make an intelligent evaluation of whether the zone is doable. Didn't we learn anything from the change in tactics on BC from invokers to melee?

if you have 6 mobs that can area bash and have MR, why would you bring spell based damage? Invokers are a plausible option for BC, invokers are at best a foolish idea for magma.
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Postby Gormal » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:37 am

i still think its too hard even if we had "the wrong group"
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Postby Ashiwi » Mon Apr 04, 2005 1:11 pm

It's too hard right now, with the tactics you know of. That's not to say it won't be too hard six months from now, even if it's not altered at all.
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Postby Yasden » Mon Apr 04, 2005 3:56 pm

Nothing is impossible.

Posted my thoughts on this in the other thread in Gameplay Discussion.
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 05, 2005 10:57 pm

I agree with ashiwi and I think seelie, spob, and bc are good examples of this in practice.

even with better tactics the rewards and reward structure leave much to be desired.
and tonights winner in the Toril EQ lottery is demi belt and skull earring!
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Postby Gormal » Wed Apr 06, 2005 7:15 am

Please don't compare Magma with BC/SPOB/Seelie. Magma is a poorly conceived zone that involves the same fight repeatedly until you get to the boss fight which is just as poorly conceived.
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Postby Disoputlip » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:25 am

I only helped with the end-fight the other day. How is the rest of the zone?

Pretend the end fight isnt there at all. How is the grid and all that.

IMHO there must be a mistake with the end-fight. Some other item should be moved to there. Else it will become like TTF.
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Postby Yayaril » Wed Apr 06, 2005 3:40 pm

Gormal wrote:Please don't compare Magma with BC/SPOB/Seelie. Magma is a poorly conceived zone that involves the same fight repeatedly until you get to the boss fight which is just as poorly conceived.


Isn't that pretty much what BC is?
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Postby kiryan » Wed Apr 06, 2005 8:05 pm

BC introduced patrol code
BC introduced glaive procs which added some new "strategies"
BC had a lot of twinks (timesavers) which may or may not have been intended.
BC was designed to allow entry in 2 different and distinct ways
BC is the second zone where the last fight becomes a suicide/cr fest (tiamat).

it was certainly not the same old thing over and over even if the zone by itself seems like 1 patrol after another. Don't mistake a predominant zone strategy as a zone deficiency.
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Postby Ambar » Wed Apr 06, 2005 10:15 pm

thought Larem quit?
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Postby Sarell » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:48 am

The grid is really rather large, and still packed, which means for the first couple of hours chances are too many mobs will combat lure and you will spank a few times, after that it will be LONG and tedious smiting the rest of the mobs you have to. Not much of the in between game at all. Need to throw a few !mob rooms in or something.

Before everyone says why bring vokers what a silly group etc, at start of zone I took 2 vokers and 3 rogues and a ranger, it was late, we changed lineup a couple times. There are a lot of big area fights on the grid, vokers were fantastic for this. At one stage I actually opted to drop a rogue for extra group healage just to combat the massive amounts of area damage drakes were dealing. We had our grouped packed out with damage forcing the chanter to work like a madman :) Very nice work Ifin!

In spite of any difficulty of the zone, it did get done, I wanted to have a whack at it since everyone said it was impossible. We were pretty darn tight and effective for a rag tag group starting at midnight EST. The main problem I saw was that for our 8 hours in the zone we got 2 awesome items in the first 25 minutes, then 2 days later when the zone was finished the group was rewarded with mediocre junk. I'd most like to leave the zone as it is and make 3 items load on the end mob, only one item doesnt load each time. That super HP belt, and the bag if it holds close to what it can total in weightless is going to need to be reconsidered. Perhaps make them rarer load and hide them on the mobs, or even better make a couple of drakes and a magma group follow them around.

Larem last I heard you were telling me that magma was way easier than spob? Spob can be done. 'l aluressi'. :P
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Postby kiryan » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:32 pm

there is something f*d up when the two best items from the trip were gotten in the first hour of a minimum 6 hour zone. I'm 95% sure that everyone in the "finishing" group would've prefer to bid on the belt/bag instead of the ring/boots/orb.

not to be offensive, but how the hell can you f up that bad on a zone reward system. ANYONE could look at the way magma distributes eq and say that is backwards. I'd seriously like to know wtf the person who redid/did this zone was thinking. maybe im not seeing some very valid principle.
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Postby Vigis » Thu Apr 07, 2005 7:46 pm

Somebody needs a hug :p

*duck*
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Postby Pril » Thu Apr 07, 2005 11:19 pm

My views on magma gird eq: *puke* ok item by item for magma

Grid:
Grid boots - Very nice boots
Grid belt - Better than TTF mage belt that seem wrong to ya guys?
Grid bag - eh ok
Grid Orb - Don't get me started on how f'd up this item is. it's greater than almost any 2 held items in game combined.
Grid dagger - no proc but VERY nice dice

Final zone fight:
Mage ring - not bad but by far not worth a minumun of 6 hr zone.
Hitter ring - spanky
Boots - worse than ice bears and def worse than grid boots
Crown - loaded once doesn't load anymore
Orb worse than bag from grid

Usually on final battle only mage ring and boots load...

I know i already talked to gods and they said that they were looking into it but who did this to begin with?

Pril
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Postby Gerad » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:14 am

As I actually wrote this zone, I would like to say a few things...

I wrote this zone with the intention that it be the hardest zone in the game, with the best EQ in the game. My feeling at the time was that since there was no 'tiamat', there was no ultimate challenge, so I made one.

Being that I wrote it to be so hard, I also wrote the rewards to be very, very good.

I am upset that the ring was downgraded, because the whole writeup on risk vs. reward that dugmaren made, this zone fit into perfectly. They then downgraded alot of things before it went live, but such is the perogative of wiser imm's that I.

I will say the following about the zone:

1- You are probably missing out on quest items because you are killing quest mobs.
2- You have not seen all of the rareload items yet, or at least nobody has mentioned them.
3- Because of how the mud converted what I had, there are some one-way rooms (or were) that were unintentional, the grid should be a grid.
4- Dresk pwnz t3h j00! (and no, he by himself is not NEARLY as good as Tiamat - otherwise he would be like doing tia with the baby reds in the room - and before anyone jumps on that, no, they arent baby red copies)

Finally, the zone has been done, and if it was a giant, massive, death filled, two level losing pain in your ass -

Then I have succeeded :)

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Postby Gerad » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:18 am

kiryan wrote:there is something f*d up when the two best items from the trip were gotten in the first hour of a minimum 6 hour zone. I'm 95% sure that everyone in the "finishing" group would've prefer to bid on the belt/bag instead of the ring/boots/orb.

not to be offensive, but how the hell can you f up that bad on a zone reward system. ANYONE could look at the way magma distributes eq and say that is backwards. I'd seriously like to know wtf the person who redid/did this zone was thinking. maybe im not seeing some very valid principle.


Kiryan,

Vigis is right in that you do need a hug, and you are right in that the EQ isnt ballanced - this is because my original intention for the gear was changed by someone (and I really dont know who) who decided, as is their call to make, that for whatever reason what I had written up was unbalancing.

As I said, it was their choice to make - and I am out of the loop on it now and have been for quite some time. I am glad to know that the zone is getting attention and I would be glad to work with anyone on any changes that need to be made.

-Gerad
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world

These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives

All this I cannot bear to witness any longer

Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby Pril » Fri Apr 08, 2005 3:55 pm

Gerad:

You have to understand, we aren't complaining about the difficulty of the zone. We are complaining (or atleast I am) about the fact that the grid eq is way more powerful than the final fight eq. That's our only complaint about the zone, difficulty we can deal with, silly eq distribution pretty much just doesn't make dresk fight worth doing. Much easier to go up anc clear the grid eq mobs rather than clearing whole zone and doing dresk. Until the dresk rewards are either on par or greater than the grid eq i doubt dresk will be done again. *shrug* just my thoughts.

Pril
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Postby kiryan » Fri Apr 08, 2005 4:38 pm

I'll echo your sentinment pril in that we aren't complaining about zone difficulty, we are complaining about the inept distribution of eq and the obvious disparity in risk vs reward.

However, I did note he said there are quests. perhaps he "meant" for the dresk eq to be quested into something wearable rather than wearing the eq off dresk. That would be moderately interesting.

However, I doubt it since when the zone originally came in one quest netted a 200 capacity quiver and *2* 6/6 arrows for a crappy ring and another netted a fly armor with crappy stats for a crown that has loaded 1x ever... However, I'm not aware of anyone doing the quest since the changes...

Maybe the quest rewards have changed to reflect the difficulty of the Dresk fight. I certainly hope that this is a case of players being complete morons and not figuring out a zone before bitching.
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Postby rylan » Fri Apr 08, 2005 6:41 pm

Well also remember that when the zone was written that was based on the previous strength of dragons, not the uber-on-crack ones now... so I think that greately throws off the desired difficulty vs reward of the end fight.
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Postby Gerad » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:59 am

The actual intention of the quests was that the zone should contain some really nice item for any class.

Because of how the write up worked, I intended to make it so that if you got one type of item, say, cleric gear, you could 'turn it in' (quest it) to get a piece of warrior gear. That way, anyone could bid on whatever was in the pot to get whatever they needed.

Of course, that was the intention, and since it all never went in how I wanted it the ballance became 'off' and it might not be worth it anymore to quest it.

Also, since I have been gone it seems that EQ has gotten better and better, when magma went in even with the nerfs some of the items were just insane and bearly justifiable... now they are about on part with some other difficult zones.

If the grid is netting better gear than the dresk fight then some of it needs to be moved. The quests wouldnt sound right anymore... but I guess thats just how it goes, the wording might not be that hard to change.

Or hell, someone just needs to go through and RVR it again... im not against that at all.

-g

also.. and I cant recall if im supposed to say this or not (and it doesnt really matter in the end if I do or dont anyway) the crown is 6% rareload, so if you do the zone enough you WILL get one :) just thing warbow! :D
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These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives

All this I cannot bear to witness any longer

Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby Pril » Sat Apr 09, 2005 2:19 pm

Ger - to my knowledge and i could be wrong... crown was removed entirely.

Pril
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Postby Gerad » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:41 am

I may have started playing again, at least casually... so once I start learning what the state of the game is EQ wise I will redo magma and adjust RVR accordingly.

I am open to suggestions.

-g
<I>When a man lies, he murders some part of the world

These are the pale deaths, which men miscall their lives

All this I cannot bear to witness any longer

Cannot the kingdom of salvation take me home?</I>
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Postby Sarell » Sun Apr 10, 2005 9:46 am

Impossible to say if the crown loads. Magma hasn't been done that many times since the first changes. I lead 2, Klandan some? It has only been done once since the most recent changes. The ring is pwnage + + +. Just make 50/50 the ring or crown load at end, make a pack of magma mentals and 2 garg drakes follow the rares around and make em a tad more rare? That way you might consider actually clearing the grid a bit and smitnig the zone instead of just hitting them in half an hour and leaving. In the current state no one will finish the zone, the only reason it got done once was to prove it could be, and that's been done now :P.

PS, the one way rooms were fixed making the zone much harder, as was the bad exits into !functioning rooms! :P
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Postby kiryan » Mon Apr 11, 2005 11:17 pm

Making the crown load (player herse 4 dam) would go a long ways as would sarell's suggestion to making that or the damage ring always load.

The twinkable grid items have been twinked more than a few times. I'd suggest downgrade but that would be unfair to people who traded for them, so your going to have to move them to dresk.

the quest that nets a quiver and 2 arrows is lame. I've yet to hear an official policy on reimbing arrows making arrows as quest rewards about as useful as ampoules. Upgrade the quiver to 250 or more (but consider tiamat quiver is only 250) and leave the 2 token arrows for consitency.

The quest for the armor was not a very good trade before and would be unbelievably bad after the last round of upgrades if the armor stats haven't changed a ton.

I heard that there is a bow quest but to my knowledge no one has actually done it. I also had heard at one point that it had an unbelievable proc and now it has no proc (player herse).
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Postby Pril » Tue Apr 12, 2005 4:14 pm

To add to magma bichfest 2005:

The mage ring from dresk fight was pwn'd once again by a ring that loads in Meilech Swamps that has better stats. That is all.

Pril
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Postby Maedor » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:34 pm

wtf is with swamps having an item that is half decent and cleric only?

downgrade the ring, or make it cleric only

the gloves/earring/mask/cloak that load there make swamps a one hit wonder for priests:P

What was the thinking behind making all (or most) of the new swamps eq priest only? Is there some bug in the rareloads that's keeping war/thief/mage eq from loading?
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Postby Pril » Tue Apr 12, 2005 5:51 pm

Yeah there is a purdy nice mage spellbook but yeah....
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Postby Maedor » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:05 pm

the book is old eq-i was referring to new new semi_overpowering yummies that are priest biased:P
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Postby kiryan » Tue Apr 12, 2005 6:38 pm

i wouldn't call them overpowering rather its about time. maxwis eq is now about on par with maxint in terms of total available. I think you'll still find that maxint eq tended to have better stats and affects and ac until some of the recent changes.

however, why they put all the new maxwis eq in one zone is beyond me. If this was sf which has a priest (be it undead) theme I could imagine to find a disproportionate amount of priest eq, but anyways...

I'm just happy swamps is worth doing again and there is more max wis eq in the game. I hope we see new zones with max wis eq that usurps the eq from swamps because swamps doesnt deserve to have a majority of the best maxwis gear from a difficulty standpoint.
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Postby Ashiwi » Tue Apr 12, 2005 7:30 pm

Maedor wrote:the book is old eq-i was referring to new new semi_overpowering yummies that are priest biased:P


If you're referring to the book in swamps, you should know there's a new book in town. That old silver one wasn't enough for one zone, there's a platinum one that kicks its ass now.
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Gormal tells you 'always another beer-soaked layer'

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Postby Sarell » Thu Apr 14, 2005 5:57 am

Just posted in the other discussion on magma in the gameplay discussion thread the horrible problem that some people have netted a stack of magma 'rares' through assassinating the mobs. I'd remove them from game or change them to a gem that is worth 5 K for a bit of combo, re vnum the items as a new one, make the mobs !assass and make a group of magmas and 2 gargauntuan drakes follow them, sorry to the people who traded for them or actually did the zone.
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