how about making some exp zones off of dk, east, west, south all look available, put something in like druid sanc. it's a hell of a long walk, and with so many goodies there is usually competition for the mobs as is with pirate ship. A plat farm closer by would be nice as well. The imbalance with these type of things is way out of whack. The plats you can make in waterdeep far exceeds anything you can do in dk. The location of various "hot spots" to waterdeep extremely favors the good races, far more so than any so called advantage of an evil race. Playing an evil isn't really difficult it's just a pain in the ass, annoying if you will, this is what keeps people from playing them.
This topic has been brought up many times and doesn't appear to even be acknowledged. Don't gimme the "who said we aren't looking into it" cause I'm saying it until I hear different.
evil luv
I dunno abou DK being hard or lacking exp, I've seen someone get from 1 - 50 in DK itself. Gloomhaven has good mid level exp, and you can run from gloomhaven to DS in about 30 seconds flat via ways that good aligned races have a much harder time accessing or simply cannot access. If you live in DK you also have the low level exp at minotaurs and mid level HP at your disposal. Then you have smoke exp for casters which you can just gate to.
I think access to 'exp zones' is too easy, or at least boring, for everyone. I personally still think plonking 'exp zones' where you can go from 1-50 into the game was one of the worst things to happen to this mud in terms of enjoying the overall experience of the game, and would hate to see them become the norm for everyone (well they already are, but thinking of moving them even closer makes me shudder).
PS. upgrade trophy downgrade tables (TM)
I think access to 'exp zones' is too easy, or at least boring, for everyone. I personally still think plonking 'exp zones' where you can go from 1-50 into the game was one of the worst things to happen to this mud in terms of enjoying the overall experience of the game, and would hate to see them become the norm for everyone (well they already are, but thinking of moving them even closer makes me shudder).
PS. upgrade trophy downgrade tables (TM)
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
Have read the replies, I guess what could be done is lower the exp from ds, change some alignments on ship to good/neutral, up the exp from mino outpost. Lower the cash on the dock mobs, especially since the items repop. If you play a evil still and reasonably often include that in your post. People who haven't played or haven't played an evil in a long time I can't give much credit to your replies.
The idea is to put the evil and good races on a more level playing field. With the idea being people may select evil races if there is no huge advantage to playing a good race. Day blindness is enough to deal with, without these long ass walks. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Humans won't exp in dk or gloomhaven, so that's really no big help. You can exp in ds more effectively that any other exp areas anyone has listed, especially when 45+ level.
The idea is to put the evil and good races on a more level playing field. With the idea being people may select evil races if there is no huge advantage to playing a good race. Day blindness is enough to deal with, without these long ass walks. I'm gonna go out on a limb here and say Humans won't exp in dk or gloomhaven, so that's really no big help. You can exp in ds more effectively that any other exp areas anyone has listed, especially when 45+ level.
First off, I don't play a high level evilrace character and I can't really put a finger on why. It's not the difficulty or the annoyance, it's something else that's not intended for this topic.
In any case, the evil races were once designated for the skilled players who wanted an extra challenge. They were meant to be extremely difficult to play, for the fun of overcoming the obstacles associated with them (outcast from most cities, aggressive hometowns, etc). Many of these obstacles have been reduced or removed by things that the gods have implemented, perhaps purposely changing the evilraces role on the mud, but I would guess they did it to please the populace of players who wanted them to be easier. But it seems to have inadvertantly made them
and that should be looked at.
But to ask that they be put on an even playing field with the goodies seems to defeat the purpose for which they were originally intended. Doesn't it?
In any case, the evil races were once designated for the skilled players who wanted an extra challenge. They were meant to be extremely difficult to play, for the fun of overcoming the obstacles associated with them (outcast from most cities, aggressive hometowns, etc). Many of these obstacles have been reduced or removed by things that the gods have implemented, perhaps purposely changing the evilraces role on the mud, but I would guess they did it to please the populace of players who wanted them to be easier. But it seems to have inadvertantly made them
"[not] really difficult it's just a pain in the ass, annoying if you will"
-Latreg
and that should be looked at.
But to ask that they be put on an even playing field with the goodies seems to defeat the purpose for which they were originally intended. Doesn't it?
Lirela wrote:But to ask that they be put on an even playing field with the goodies seems to defeat the purpose for which they were originally intended. Doesn't it?
times change, what good is having the evil side geared towards skilled players if no one is playing them? The disclaimer you get when even rolling up a new character will keep a large majority of newbs from even making one. Basically you are encouraged to start with the good races. Addition of the homeland zones keeps the "skilled old" players from being bored so they have no reason to try an evil race. Facts still remain, not enough evil player base.
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kiryan
- Sojourner
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the mud has changed the players have changed....
looking to our history may offer up lessons learned, but is unlikely to apply directly to today.
For example, in the old days all damage was melee and all tanking was pet based. Evils had an obvious advantage in Ogres without exposing the Ogres obvious weakness in tanking. You could do more with less players. Would reasserting Ogre dominance in PC damage fix the evils or improving their tanking? Perhaps, but over time the game emphasis has shifted from single target damage to area damage and from NPC tanks to PC tanks... so are you going to make them area damagers? Now what have you done to squids, invokers, and other race warriors as a result?
A thing like making evils harder sounds promising until you consider that the general level of game and zone knowledge as well as skill has increased over the years... So making evils harder is not as easy as sprinkling a few agros in home towns and purgind DK...
looking to our history may offer up lessons learned, but is unlikely to apply directly to today.
For example, in the old days all damage was melee and all tanking was pet based. Evils had an obvious advantage in Ogres without exposing the Ogres obvious weakness in tanking. You could do more with less players. Would reasserting Ogre dominance in PC damage fix the evils or improving their tanking? Perhaps, but over time the game emphasis has shifted from single target damage to area damage and from NPC tanks to PC tanks... so are you going to make them area damagers? Now what have you done to squids, invokers, and other race warriors as a result?
A thing like making evils harder sounds promising until you consider that the general level of game and zone knowledge as well as skill has increased over the years... So making evils harder is not as easy as sprinkling a few agros in home towns and purgind DK...
kiryan wrote:A thing like making evils harder sounds promising until you consider that the general level of game and zone knowledge as well as skill has increased over the years... So making evils harder is not as easy as sprinkling a few agros in home towns and purgind DK...
Exactly...this only hinders newbies, old players have multiple sets of eq so aggros and hinderances at low-level are pretty mute in terms of challenge not to mention the effect Scardale has.
I really don't think the challenege issue is it...If people wanted a challenege they'd be all over the lack of classes, scraped together groups that are difficult to zone with...Instead players these days want consistency and high rates of success, they want to finish quests (which virtually every 10+ member guild has heaps and heaps of info on), they want to collect top notch eq. This hasn't been a possibility for evil races for the last 6 months if not longer, and slowly people have left to play goodrace in hopes of actully finishing a quest in under a year.
Evils have done SPOB maybe once in the last year. Seelie three or four times. Izans a handful of times.
This is why people left...Not a lack of challenge, but the realization that they could 'tough it out' and do a challenging 18 hour SPOB run once a year, or play goodrace and do it in 4 hours several times in a year.
Challenge isnt why people have switched...Its plenty challenging as it is. I'm starting to feel that a pwipe is the only thing that will ever have a chance at restoring the evil pbase...Whether I'm for or against this I don't really know, nor does it matter since a stance on this has already been taken and held true. I officially 'quit' Toril in January when I realized that I never see myself playing goodrace, and probably will never be able to finish all the quests I'd like to and wouldn't be able to lead zones regularly. Oh well, it doesn't matter in the end...The die-hards will bitch and whine (me included), the people who have switched or never play evil will tell us to cram it and just switch already...Really not a whole heck of a lot that can be done.
Anymore I play because its fun, and I'm content with what I've achieved.
If I don't get to zone more than twice a month big deal...I don't play anymore, remember...I quit. Just holding down the fort for evils, even if its just me myself and I.
Glad you bumped this, Hsoj. :)
1) Evilraces are phun. I'm leveling my second serious evilrace character and am having a blast.
2) Someone said it earlier and I wholeheartedly agree--the easy experience to be found INSIDE DK ruined the whole idea of exp for ebils. When a good majority of the troll warriors that were rolled in the past couple years got 90% of their exp between levels 1-50 from within the walls of DK, that's an issue. To say that there is a lack of exp for ebils is just strange, frankly. The issue isn't too few exp zones for ebils, it's too MANY exp zones for the mud as a whole (again, someone said this already, too).
3) UD is chock full of exp. Go find it. Honestly. :)
1) Evilraces are phun. I'm leveling my second serious evilrace character and am having a blast.
2) Someone said it earlier and I wholeheartedly agree--the easy experience to be found INSIDE DK ruined the whole idea of exp for ebils. When a good majority of the troll warriors that were rolled in the past couple years got 90% of their exp between levels 1-50 from within the walls of DK, that's an issue. To say that there is a lack of exp for ebils is just strange, frankly. The issue isn't too few exp zones for ebils, it's too MANY exp zones for the mud as a whole (again, someone said this already, too).
3) UD is chock full of exp. Go find it. Honestly. :)
Upgrade zone mobs' xp to same level of points as xp zone mobs, downgrade xp zones' xp by at least 50%. Jot grid, anyone?
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Why Nerox is jealous of me:
Nerox tells you 'man this thing is kicking my ass and i have blisters!'
Nerox tells you 'ok attempting it again put tape on my fingers for easier sliding'
Yasden is right!
Easiest way to do it, upgrade trophy downgrade tables.
..Yearly elaboration.... If you make it so that you get no exp from a mob after 2% and can't get more than 5% of you total exp from one zone then you can't sit in exp zones 1-50. This would make exp harder, but you would have to go to at least 20 places to be a level 50. You could lower the exp table in accordance to balance that problem out if exp is deemed too hard.
Changing 46+ exp to be harder and 46- exp to be easier did make keeping level 50 painful as predicted! This change to trophy and tables would re-balance this, since we'd be getting more exp in zones with the lower tables (beats restatting EVERY zone) and we wouldn't struggle to keep level 50 on a character that has lead over a thousand zones.
For a short term fix, let's move DS into gloomhaven. Here's my infallable argument.... Obviously, the druids by now have discovered that their 'sanctuary' is CLEARLY not working out for them. If they moved to gloomhaven, since there are only 3 evils online and 2 of them don't know the way out of DK, the druids would be much better off safely populating Gloomhaven.
Easiest way to do it, upgrade trophy downgrade tables.
..Yearly elaboration.... If you make it so that you get no exp from a mob after 2% and can't get more than 5% of you total exp from one zone then you can't sit in exp zones 1-50. This would make exp harder, but you would have to go to at least 20 places to be a level 50. You could lower the exp table in accordance to balance that problem out if exp is deemed too hard.
Changing 46+ exp to be harder and 46- exp to be easier did make keeping level 50 painful as predicted! This change to trophy and tables would re-balance this, since we'd be getting more exp in zones with the lower tables (beats restatting EVERY zone) and we wouldn't struggle to keep level 50 on a character that has lead over a thousand zones.
For a short term fix, let's move DS into gloomhaven. Here's my infallable argument.... Obviously, the druids by now have discovered that their 'sanctuary' is CLEARLY not working out for them. If they moved to gloomhaven, since there are only 3 evils online and 2 of them don't know the way out of DK, the druids would be much better off safely populating Gloomhaven.
Arishae group-says 'mah sunray brings all the boys to the yard'
Shadow Scream
Shadow Scream
Sarell wrote:For a short term fix, let's move DS into gloomhaven. Here's my infallable argument.... Obviously, the druids by now have discovered that their 'sanctuary' is CLEARLY not working out for them. If they moved to gloomhaven, since there are only 3 evils online and 2 of them don't know the way out of DK, the druids would be much better off safely populating Gloomhaven.
You're not giving them enough credit. You think the druids are going to cry and run away from a few wussy adventurers? You of all people would know better, I think. And they worship Shevarash too, that's another couple points of badass for them.
Seriously though, that was priceless. Excellent suggestion!
Kesena OOC: 'i wish my daddy bought me power tools'
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
Dorgh group-says 'damn, even with Cofen helping Mori, they STILL can't kill someone
Hekanut says 'I know level doesn't matter much, but most won't take seriously if a level 2 claims to be the best thing before, during, and after sliced bread.'
Rather than seeing "subpar race/class," see "challenge."
" You could do more with less players."
O RLY?!
O RLY?!
Danahg tells you 'yeah, luckily i kept most of it in my mouth and nasal membranes, ugh'
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Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
Dlur group-says 'I have a dead horse that I'm dragging down the shaft with my 4 corpses. Anyone want to help me beat it?'
Calladuran: There are other games to play if you want to play with yourself.
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Arilin Nydelahar
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Sarell wrote:For a short term fix, let's move DS into gloomhaven. Here's my infallable argument.... Obviously, the druids by now have discovered that their 'sanctuary' is CLEARLY not working out for them. If they moved to gloomhaven, since there are only 3 evils online and 2 of them don't know the way out of DK, the druids would be much better off safely populating Gloomhaven.
lol
We are perhaps looking at this whole scenario wrongly... it is not about evils not having a good xp spot... it is not about evils being too tuff to play... it is not even about evil not having pbase... imho it is all about the MUD not having the pBase that it should be having...
Zoning is the most important aspect of the game... and to zone you need a combination of people...
at this time, after discounting afks, rl issues, you could have 70% of players who are online who are able to group to do something... To take on a major zone would more or less take half the mud population at present time, and when you include tiamat run, not being included means there isnt much zoning left for you to do unless you are on solo missions.
As i said, imho it is all about our pBase... if we have more new poeple attracted to the mud I would strongly believe then, and only then, would we see an increase in the evil pbase. Then you could have all the evil luvin that you could ever wish.
Zoning is the most important aspect of the game... and to zone you need a combination of people...
at this time, after discounting afks, rl issues, you could have 70% of players who are online who are able to group to do something... To take on a major zone would more or less take half the mud population at present time, and when you include tiamat run, not being included means there isnt much zoning left for you to do unless you are on solo missions.
As i said, imho it is all about our pBase... if we have more new poeple attracted to the mud I would strongly believe then, and only then, would we see an increase in the evil pbase. Then you could have all the evil luvin that you could ever wish.
Sarell wrote:Yasden is right!
you heard it here first!
bears win superbowl and hell freezes over!
yep someone saying yasden was right about anything besides afking and cat blaming was the first sign of the apocolytic curse of the chicago bears problems!!
just joking btw... bears dont stand a chance!
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Brandobaris
- Staff Member - Areas
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Re: evil luv
Latreg wrote:how about making some exp zones off of dk, east, west, south all look available, put something in like druid sanc. it's a hell of a long walk, and with so many goodies there is usually competition for the mobs as is with pirate ship. A plat farm closer by would be nice as well. The imbalance with these type of things is way out of whack. The plats you can make in waterdeep far exceeds anything you can do in dk. The location of various "hot spots" to waterdeep extremely favors the good races, far more so than any so called advantage of an evil race. Playing an evil isn't really difficult it's just a pain in the ass, annoying if you will, this is what keeps people from playing them.
This topic has been brought up many times and doesn't appear to even be acknowledged. Don't gimme the "who said we aren't looking into it" cause I'm saying it until I hear different.
I have made an exp/quest area for evils, and it is not too far from the typical evil hangout spots. There should be plenty to do with any number of players, and the exp should be comparable to any of the big exp spots. It took over a year of very hard work, so I hope you will give it a try. The name is the Comarian Mines.
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